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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On February 06 2013 07:43 Seuss wrote: I believe that's what he was referring to when he called it "Monte's Trynd idea". I missed a few pages, wasn't 100%. Seems pretty good, | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
He's just like A-M in DotA, once you get your battlefury (Tiamat) you can just flashfarm the map incredibly effectively and snowball in terms of items while still being present in teamfights. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On the crazy ideas front, it might be interesting to run Smite on a mid lane champion with Spirit of the Spectral Wraith. On champions that love Spell Vamp (Vlad, Morde, Rumble) or have some innately (Morgana, Ryze, Akali) it could be an interesting choice. So long as there's something to Smite it heals for 100-200 Health every 50 seconds, more with additional Spell Vamp items/runes/masteries/abilities. The team also gets additional Baron/Dragon control, while the mid laner has an easier time leaching wolves/wraiths. I'm not sure this is a very serious idea, but it's at least a humorous one to consider. I'm still trying to investigate potential replacements for Ryze/Cass in the AP duo lane. While those two have fairly different builds/strategies, the common denominator is their surprisingly high sustained damage. A Ryze with Muramana and max CDR deals 52.44% of his AP and 11.95% of his mana in damage every second (averaged) not accounting for base damage or auto-attacks. Cassiopeia deals 80-95% of her AP in damage every second (averaged) without accounting for her ultimate. Finding a champion who can match these numbers is difficult. I suggested Annie earlier, but she only reaches 64.79% AP -> DPS, and only if you count Tibber's aura. Every champion I've examined in detail thus far fails on simple reliability. You have to assume ideal circumstances for them to be competitive (e.g. Teemo with 2.5 attack speed doing stationary DPS). So far the best candidates are Teemo and Kayle, who can hit 100% AP -> DPS simply through auto-attacking (in the ideal case). The critical difficulty is obtaining enough attack speed while also building AP, and in Kayle's case obtaining sufficient CDR. The playstyle would be much closer to that of an AD carry, but has potential. I haven't yet looked at ideal builds and build progression for these two. I've yet to find another champion whose sustained damage competitiveness is not dependent upon Lich Bane, which is an awkward item for most champions. It would bring Annie up to 96.04% AP -> DPS, but fitting it into her build would require sacrificing survivability. Chances are you would only see it late in the game if at all. None of this is to say that sustained damage is the only important factor, or that AP -> DPS is an absolute guiding principle. But any champion replacing Ryze or Cass who can't match their sustained damage must have some other factor significantly in their favor. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
He also doesn't need levels as much as farm, though his ult levels are critical ones in terms of power spikes, and has always had trouble against mids who can just shove the wave, especially from afar, and roam. Being in a sidelane, he wouldn't be as pressured to roam, and would have easier farm thanks to the 2v1 lane. Maybe he could even fit in a tear instead of rushing RoA. His cc makes him pretty good at assisting ganks. On the minus side, he wouldn't handle the enemy swapping too very well, especially as most AD carries have either great range (Caitlyn, Ashe, and somewhat Varus) or escapes to make his W hard to hit (... most of the other ones, 'cept MF Urgot and Draven). He also wouldn't handle very well a solo laner able to shove from afar (Galio, most notably, but also AP Cho and maybe Jayce/post-6 Kha?) since they wouldn't let him freeze the wave and with good ward coverage could be somewhat safe from ganks. | ||
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Zdrastochye
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
LeBlanc is an interesting option because her burst is extremely scary, and few AD duos are prepared for massive magic damage. You wouldn't pick her expecting her to carry later, so it's a very different AP duo than those we've been examining. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
I'm not sure why you say his damage is above average and he doesn't offer much to make up otherwise. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On February 06 2013 11:07 Alaric wrote: Do you mean below average? For a mage, his sustained damage is more than most "burst" mages who rely on their ultimate, but it's true that in "sustained" he's worse than recent stuff like Diana, Elise, etc. and ofc ourse Karthus/Ryze/Cass. I'm not sure why you say his damage is above average and he doesn't offer much to make up otherwise. I should probably have said "mean" instead of "average". Most AP champions fall between 40 and 50% AP -> DPS. Swain is above this mark, as is Diana. (I'll note that my calculations at this point are strictly single-target). But above the mean/average doesn't mean he's up there with Ryze/Cass. With max CDR Swain sits around 60-65% depending on how you calculate his ultimate's contribution. Diana sits at 63.76% on a single target unless she builds attack speed (at 1.5 attack speed she's up to 71%). Ryze may only sit just about 50% AP -> DPS, but the mana conversion is actually worth far more than that. Meanwhile, Cass is sitting at a ridiculous 81.6% without any CDR or calculating in her W, and assuming 1s casts on E (it's actually even less). The difference between Swain and Ryze/Cass in terms of sustained damage is absolutely huge, which is why Swain needs some other factor in his favor. I don't think he really has one, since Ryze is easily as or more tanky than him and sustains in a fight similarly well due to his ultimate. Cass just puts out way more damage and has her own clutch ultimates, and is free to ignore building CDR. | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On February 06 2013 11:42 Seuss wrote: I should probably have said "mean" instead of "average". Most AP champions fall between 40 and 50% AP -> DPS. Swain is above this mark, as is Diana. (I'll note that my calculations at this point are strictly single-target). But above the mean/average doesn't mean he's up there with Ryze/Cass. With max CDR Swain sits around 60-65% depending on how you calculate his ultimate's contribution. Diana sits at 63.76% on a single target unless she builds attack speed (at 1.5 attack speed she's up to 71%). Ryze may only sit just about 50% AP -> DPS, but the mana conversion is actually worth far more than that. Meanwhile, Cass is sitting at a ridiculous 81.6% without any CDR or calculating in her W, and assuming 1s casts on E (it's actually even less). The difference between Swain and Ryze/Cass in terms of sustained damage is absolutely huge, which is why Swain needs some other factor in his favor. I don't think he really has one, since Ryze is easily as or more tanky than him and sustains in a fight similarly well due to his ultimate. Cass just puts out way more damage and has her own clutch ultimates, and is free to ignore building CDR. Well I honestly think Ryze is basically perfect for this, he shits on ADs. But if you are looking for sustained damage its basically just what you mentioned and anivia, who actually does a ton (5 sec cd on 1.0 scaling E, plus ult). Xerath is also pretty solid, his Q is quite short CD so he doesnt worry about being harassed on cds, he outranges everyone and can push hard, and his burst is preposterous in every way. Basicallyt if you are at 3/4 health you have to leave lane or he'll just kill you if you try to CS and you cant retaliate. Plus he gets a bit of free armor for what its worth. | ||
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Haasts
New Zealand4445 Posts
On February 06 2013 09:21 Zdrastochye wrote: On the topic of AP duos, I find that Leona/Leblanc is fairly good at higher levels, and absolutely crushes lowbies. The squishy target is the one you can't get to engage on. You can't really abuse LB's high CDs at low ranks without throwing yourself into Leona's stuns. With AD marks on LB for some last hitting ease, you can pull off amazingly looking plays while covering lots of ground. I have a lot of fond memories of running AD LeBlanc with support Leona and jungle Nunu in premades; aside from mindgaming people with the early LB pick (this was long enough ago that people would counterpick with AP Sion, heh), LB's base damage on her abilities is bananas early without AP, and you tend to bully your lane hard enough to fight your way through your midgame lull and end up at 5-6 items with a potential double blink/root/silence, all of which are pretty handy for an AD carry. Edit: Speaking of Xerath, I'd love to see a team comp built around him - having a lil' hunt through the archives, there was a game the Twin Casting Golems, er, cast in December: On December 10 2012 08:00 Sermokala wrote: The comp by epic in this game is really fantastic. A beautiful mix of poke initiation and damage. the comp is xerath nami corki olaf amumu. The aoe initiation unlocks the insane range of xeraths nuking to its fullest extent while as well setting up the 1-2 combo of Olaf Corki diving. suddenly you have an olaf in your face that you can't cc an amumu sitting around that you can't kill with a xerath nuking you down from a screen away and a corki cleaning everything up . On December 10 2012 10:47 Sermokala wrote: I'm still wowed on that team comp by epic that the golums casted. Xerath nami corki olaf amumu. Just the best mix of a little of everything approch to drafting. Truely a sight to behold such amazing synergy in teamfights. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On February 06 2013 14:23 Alaric wrote: Xerath's damage and kill potential without is ult is fairly low though, so even if its short CDR allows him to pick someone off before an objective and have it ready fairly early to force another fight (especially against champs like Karthus/Amumu/Nocturne), in the lategame if he can't reliably blanket the entire enemy team he isn't particularly better than TF/Nidalee/Jayce/Kha'Zix at poking. Of course not, his poke is just good. But that ult is on a 36 second cd at max rank, and I'll tell you which ult i'd rather have in a teamfight between those champs. Xeraths ult is a fucking preposterous skill. A six sphere syndra ult does 1780 damage at 500 AP to a single target, a xerath ult has 20 sec less cd and does 1725 damage at 1300 range with 40% free magic pen added in...in a massive AOE. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On February 06 2013 10:04 Seuss wrote: Swain's sustained damage is above average, and I'm not sure he brings enough to the table to make up for that. It's true that putting him in a side lane alleviates a lot of his issues, but that alone isn't sufficient to justify him. LeBlanc is an interesting option because her burst is extremely scary, and few AD duos are prepared for massive magic damage. You wouldn't pick her expecting her to carry later, so it's a very different AP duo than those we've been examining. One worry about Leblanc is she needs a huge level advantage to be effective. Its not farm with her as much as you REALLY need to hit that level 9-16 range asap. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On February 06 2013 15:38 sob3k wrote: Of course not, his poke is just good. But that ult is on a 36 second cd at max rank, and I'll tell you which ult i'd rather have in a teamfight between those champs. Xeraths ult is a fucking preposterous skill. A six sphere syndra ult does 1780 damage at 500 AP to a single target, a xerath ult has 20 sec less cd and does 1725 damage at 1300 range with 40% free magic pen added in...in a massive AOE. That's probably where my analysis is breaking down right now. I've been examining champions fairly exclusively on sustained single target damage. You can see hints of the flaws of this approach in some of the responses to my various statements. Diana is perceived as having much greater sustained damage than Swain, but mathematically speaking this only makes sense if Diana is hitting multiple targets. It's not so much that my analysis is bad, but it's limited. It will essentially only find champions who can try and shoehorn themselves into a Ryze or Cass playstyle. There are different ways to carry as an AP champion, it just so happens that Ryze and Cass have the most intuitive and least team-dependent kits (at least for me). If you can force fights to shape themselves in such a way that Xerath is guaranteed to hit multiple people, his potential damage is ridiculous, though it isn't sustained. The total damage of a QRRRQ combo is 1295 + 300% of his AP. Combined with the pointlessness of building MR against him, that's extremely frightening. The trouble is finding ways to force the enemy team together, or punish them if they stay spread out. | ||
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JonGalt
Pootie too good!4331 Posts
I am curious about building Diana to proc her passive more often. I was thinking you could build Sorc Boots, Nashor's Tooth, Wit's End, Void Staff, Zhona's. For the last item I was thinking Lich Bane/Deathcap/WotA. Lich Bane: Add some more mana, move speed, AP, and syngergize with her passive. Deathcap: Straight AP, pretty self-explanatory. WotA: This could be good, but only if her passive procs the spell vamp. I am unsure about that. I am new to LoL and even newer to LoL theorycrafting and LoL math, but here is what I figured: Sorc Boots, Nashor's Tooth, Wit's End, Void Staff, and Zhona's gives +255 AP and +90% AS. Plus you get some MR, Armor, Zhonas util, and MPen. With this, if I did my math right, your AS will be 2.12 at max rank. Without Nashor's or Wit's End your AS will be 1.21. This means that if you are constantly autoing, you are procing your passive every 1.5 seconds as opposed to every 3 seconds. With these five items, you should proc your passive for 443 magic damage every 1.5 seconds! If you use a Dcap for your 6th item it will be 571. If you use a Lich for your 6th item it will be 491. If you proc Lich passive at the same time I think it will be 792. If you use a WotA for your 6th item it will be 473. If WotA heals off your passive it will heal you for 95. Maxing Diana's passive seems to me the best way to play her. With this build she still has a bunch of AP, decent MR, decent Armor, and can dish out so much damage with her AS and passive. In fact, mathematically her passive is her most powerful ability until you have 900+ AP. Her passive is 290 + 60% AP Her Q is 200 + 70% AP 290 + 60% AP = 200 + 70% AP 90 = 10% AP AP = 900 is the point where Q becomes stronger. At max CDR Q has a cd of 3.6 (I think). You can proc your passive TWICE in that amount of time. The build also doesn't sacrifice AP so much that your burst combo still isn't strong. With just the addition of Nashor's Tooth and Wit's End your passive becomes twice as effective AND your burst is still strong. I think a build like this would make Diana viable at even Top or Jungle, allowing her to trade autos or clear fast respectively. OR just be a super sick mid that can gank. Mid would still be best, but Top or Jungle might not be too terrible. Disclaimer: All of this does not factor in any Runes or Masteries. This is also the first time I have done math on character stats so I am not sure I did it right, but it seemed correct to me. Let me know what you think! | ||
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Crownlol
United States3726 Posts
On February 06 2013 10:04 Seuss wrote: Swain's sustained damage is above average, and I'm not sure he brings enough to the table to make up for that. It's true that putting him in a side lane alleviates a lot of his issues, but that alone isn't sufficient to justify him. LeBlanc is an interesting option because her burst is extremely scary, and few AD duos are prepared for massive magic damage. You wouldn't pick her expecting her to carry later, so it's a very different AP duo than those we've been examining. Doublesnare certainly needs to be mentioned for a duo lane. Playing an AD mid with duo AP bot can absolutely work with Swain- however, what I'd be looking to do is play the lane with double CC. For example, Ryze/Morg, Morg/Swain, or Ryze/Swain is a little deadlier than either of those with Cass. Now, Cass has amazing zoning potential, but slightly less of the doublecc guaranteed kill. In a doublecc scenario, any time either of the laners hits their snare, someone dies. That's it. Rune prison into Nevermove into full combos from Ryze and Swain is a kill. Similarly, Dark Binding into Rune Prison into full combos from Ryze and Morg is a kill, but you also have black shield for utility. Lux is another good option for this type of double CC comp. Light binding -> Nevermove or Light Binding -> Rune Prison is a guaranteed kill. Man, I really want to play Ryze/Swain. Double tanky burst, enough peels to never get killed? Awesome. Level 2 combo would easily be 100% of a carry (or even support's) health bar WITHOUT ignite. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
The AP duo lane Monte is talking about relies on lane swaps to achieve a "normal", synergistic and balanced comp. | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On February 06 2013 23:23 Crownlol wrote: Doublesnare certainly needs to be mentioned for a duo lane. Playing an AD mid with duo AP bot can absolutely work with Swain- however, what I'd be looking to do is play the lane with double CC. For example, Ryze/Morg, Morg/Swain, or Ryze/Swain is a little deadlier than either of those with Cass. Now, Cass has amazing zoning potential, but slightly less of the doublecc guaranteed kill. In a doublecc scenario, any time either of the laners hits their snare, someone dies. That's it. Rune prison into Nevermove into full combos from Ryze and Swain is a kill. Similarly, Dark Binding into Rune Prison into full combos from Ryze and Morg is a kill, but you also have black shield for utility. Lux is another good option for this type of double CC comp. Light binding -> Nevermove or Light Binding -> Rune Prison is a guaranteed kill. Man, I really want to play Ryze/Swain. Double tanky burst, enough peels to never get killed? Awesome. Level 2 combo would easily be 100% of a carry (or even support's) health bar WITHOUT ignite. The thing is if you run like ryze/swain who gets the farm. A zero farm swain is really bad (his ult is much of his damage and with no items he'll just get killed instantly), but so is Ryze, as they both have really low range. Also you kind of want one of the people's CC to be nice and long range. Obviously people are going to try their very best to stay out of rune prison, and nevermove's delay makes it really hard to land without his slow or another CC, so a chain CC with Ryze swain would end up requiring either a flash or someone dumb enough to just walk up to you. I think running swain just for a slow and a snare is a pretty bad idea when you could just basically replace him with blitzcrank, who is much scarier at any range and has about the same level 2 damage, plus his ult is better burst and he does great with no farm. I agree that having CC on both laners is really strong. You just really want at least one of them to be not taric range, and there really isn't any reason to run a second AP and or something just for their CC when a more conventional support will do the job much better. Leona is actually IMO stupidly strong when paired with an AP. She has three fucking stuns including a really long range one, which is already really good with an AD. When you put that with an AP with much greater burst AND a CC of their own its just stupid, you literally have over 5 seconds of stun which can be initiated at 1200 range. Also sunlight uses the detonator's magic pen when procced, so its stronger with an AP. Your ideal support are going to be: Leona (seriously she is so good with an AP) Blitz (great if you plan on zoning them) Thresh (if you are worried about jungle ganks or having no escape on your AP) Elise (If you want retard level burst and not bothering with as much CC, reliable 1075 range stun) Zyra I would never run a sustain support with an AP. Your advantage is burst, use it. The burst from an AP and an aggressive support is also more than enough to kill an opposing laner from 100% if they decide to run a sustain support, so its totally pointless. Soraka isn't going to save your ass from a level 6 full combo from leona lux (her armor buff is useless anyway). While your laner would be like: Ryze Cass (dosn't need to bring any CC because her damage is so high on immobile target) Annie (not as strong, as her CC isn't always available) Lux (seriously leona lux is so stupid at level 6) Anivia (guaranteed Q follow up to CC, wall, and huge damage) Viktor (his gravity field is nuts strong when used as combo CC, strong laning too and zoning, he can easily hit you under tower) Zyra Swain EDIT: I'm forgetting Maokai for a support, which could work very well. He has really scary allin and excellent CC, gets big sustain from being in lane with an AP spamming spells, and gets free wards while being strong even poorly equipped later. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
Gah, I really want to make Sion work as a champ, especially as an AP bruiser. Seeker's is a strong early game item against ADs that could give him lane trouble. Guise/Liandry's can work well with his good bases early on, and the Liandry's passive seems amazing for his Stun as a poking tool. He could even make pretty good use of Twin Shadows, getting Kage's early for laning AP power, the MR helping his shield, then using the active and MS to help his sticking power. Or Chalice/Grail as an MR item, since he wants the CDR as well. However, AP bruiser doesn't give him the burst, and then he's kind of useless after her blows Stun/Shield. Which begs for Something like Malady, Wit's, or Lichbane for his auto attacks if he wants to do sustained damage. His kit is just so confusing from an AP standpoint. Build bruiser, do no damage. Build nuker, die before you're able to do anything. I know there's likely an update for him in the future, but eh. It's fun to try and make things work now. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
It might be a little unfortunate but I think Ryze and Cassiopeia are simply the two perfect champions for this. Of the other suggestions made, Xerath relies heavily on his ult to do combo damage, and wants solo lane levels. He's also a good wave pusher on his own. Leblanc wants to be roaming and ganking and not stuck in top lane. Anivia wants to be 1v1ing, really Anivia wants to be 1v2ing but nobody would be stupid enough to try to siege an Anivia. Another big consideration with this is if it was ever used competitively, the enemy team would likely mirror your lane swap, and you'd have your AP-support duo going against their ADC-support duo. Your duo has to be able to hold on in this situation. That's why I don't like Kayle, in the early game Kayle needs to last hit without her E and will take a ton of poke damage. Teemo I think is potentially viable, but would need a support that can really protect him from enemy all ins because he's squishy early and lacks good escape tools. Teemo Thresh possibly, Thresh probably provides the best disengage of any support right now. I think what we're looking at is Ryze and Cass definitely, and possibly (should be tested) Teemo. One advantage to Teemo over Ryze/Cass is better tower pushing ability, even if his teamfight damage is a little bit weaker. Mushrooms would also make ganking a Teemo Thresh lane a big waste of time. Teemo also doesn't really require blue buff, and the jungler could take them instead. Edit: Additionally, in your DPS calculations, you should factor in Muramana / Glacial Fist into Ryze, and Liandry's into Cass and Teemo. The Liandry buff on the PBR is pretty big. Double edit: Cass Blitzcrank would probably be scary. When Blitz gets a grab off you know where the victim is going to be, and the stun and subsequent knockup keeps them in that position for 2 seconds or so. Cass would be able to pre-emptively Q and W that location, and E spam them during the knockup. | ||
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