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I think Anivia could actually work well, she has a strong kit for this. Think about it.
-great damage, burst and sustained (5 second 1.0 scaling E at all levels wtf)
-Constant threat of Q stun starting a combo from any range
-Wall and guaranteed stun to stack on support CC
-Strong 1v2 with ult and more CC
-Egg form which is even harder to finish off when you have the support hitting you while you try to kill it, big one
Her big weaknesses are
1. Mana, she'd be much stronger on purple side with easy access to blue
2. Escape
I think pairing her with thresh would be strong for his disengage and good CC. Ults have strong synergy as well, you planning on walking out of that glacial storm, sorry, box.
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We're not talking about doing AP-Support as a 2v2 bot sob3k, the idea is AP-Support as a 2v1 to counter the enemy top lane bruiser while we cherry pick a great 1v2er to put bottom lane. It would only be 2v2 after they mirror our lane swap.
This means pre-6 levels are important because in a competitive scene, the enemy 2v1 lane will try to take their tower down before Anivia hits 6. Anivia needs to be level 6 and needs a ton of mana regen to really abuse an enemy bruiser and push the wave.
Fact is Anivia really doesn't need a support champion with her at all, she just needs blue buff. This also makes her a little undesirable in a scenario where you might be lane swapping several times.
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I am having a bit of trouble with Jungle Nasus.
Basically, you want a few points in Q to level it up as fast as possible. However, it would also be very useful if E would oneshot the smaller creeps with a few hits of bladed armor to keep your clearspeed from being horribly abysmal. However, this leaves your W underlevelled probably making your ganks far less scary then they could be. I'd also like a few ideas regarding his build paths. I assume CdR is pretty important to get, but where from? And if you don't take the second blue, you tend to go oom rather fast spamming E.
I guess one point in Q could actually be enough to give you a few more points in W, which would leave you at something like E>W>Q, but at some point you will want to start powering up your Q so you can punch people more often. I think this whole thing is a very delicate situation.
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On February 07 2013 01:13 Ketara wrote:
We're not talking about doing AP-Support as a 2v2 bot sob3k, the idea is AP-Support as a 2v1 to counter the enemy top lane bruiser while we cherry pick a great 1v2er to put bottom lane. It would only be 2v2 after they mirror our lane swap.
This means pre-6 levels are important because in a competitive scene, the enemy 2v1 lane will try to take their tower down before Anivia hits 6. Anivia needs to be level 6 and needs a ton of mana regen to really abuse an enemy bruiser and push the wave.
Fact is Anivia really doesn't need a support champion with her at all, she just needs blue buff. This also makes her a little undesirable in a scenario where you might be lane swapping several times.
Well if thats what you are talking about then its completely different. Ryze is a ton worse, range become much more important than CC unless you can land a blitz pull, because in a 2v1 top their top is going to be deep under the tower basically 100% of the time. The main goals of your 2v1 top is to take tower, harass the top out of lane, and maybe kill them, which an AP support combo is arguably worse at than a normal AD like cait.
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The thing that makes the difference is that 1v2 tops are usually prepared for a lot of physical poke and harass, but not prepared for burst magic damage that our 2v1 combo can put out. You don't think a Zyra Ryze doublesnare combo would be able to kill a Darius under his tower?
The tower pushing thing is an issue, but I think we can mitigate that with some clever runes, masteries and itemization. Reality is at level 1 an AP and an AD are doing similar damage to towers.
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On February 06 2013 22:14 JonGalt wrote:I am a Peace Corps Volunteer in Lesotho so I can't test this (won't return to America until December 2014) but I would be interested if this is worth trying. I am curious about building Diana to proc her passive more often. + Show Spoiler [Math] + I was thinking you could build Sorc Boots, Nashor's Tooth, Wit's End, Void Staff, Zhona's.
For the last item I was thinking Lich Bane/Deathcap/WotA.
Lich Bane: Add some more mana, move speed, AP, and syngergize with her passive.
Deathcap: Straight AP, pretty self-explanatory.
WotA: This could be good, but only if her passive procs the spell vamp. I am unsure about that.
I am new to LoL and even newer to LoL theorycrafting and LoL math, but here is what I figured:
Sorc Boots, Nashor's Tooth, Wit's End, Void Staff, and Zhona's gives +255 AP and +90% AS.
Plus you get some MR, Armor, Zhonas util, and MPen. With this, if I did my math right, your AS will be 2.12 at max rank. Without Nashor's or Wit's End your AS will be 1.21. This means that if you are constantly autoing, you are procing your passive every 1.5 seconds as opposed to every 3 seconds. With these five items, you should proc your passive for 443 magic damage every 1.5 seconds!
If you use a Dcap for your 6th item it will be 571.
If you use a Lich for your 6th item it will be 491. If you proc Lich passive at the same time I think it will be 792.
If you use a WotA for your 6th item it will be 473. If WotA heals off your passive it will heal you for 95.
Maxing Diana's passive seems to me the best way to play her. With this build she still has a bunch of AP, decent MR, decent Armor, and can dish out so much damage with her AS and passive. In fact, mathematically her passive is her most powerful ability until you have 900+ AP.
Her passive is 290 + 60% AP
Her Q is 200 + 70% AP
290 + 60% AP = 200 + 70% AP
90 = 10% AP
AP = 900 is the point where Q becomes stronger.
At max CDR Q has a cd of 3.6 (I think). You can proc your passive TWICE in that amount of time. The build also doesn't sacrifice AP so much that your burst combo still isn't strong. With just the addition of Nashor's Tooth and Wit's End your passive becomes twice as effective AND your burst is still strong. I think a build like this would make Diana viable at even Top or Jungle, allowing her to trade autos or clear fast respectively. OR just be a super sick mid that can gank. Mid would still be best, but Top or Jungle might not be too terrible.
Disclaimer: All of this does not factor in any Runes or Masteries. This is also the first time I have done math on character stats so I am not sure I did it right, but it seemed correct to me. Let me know what you think!
Diana tends to need to build tankier than that even as a burst AP. Her damage requires her to be in melee range, if not in the middle of the entire enemy team. As a result, Zhonya's/Wit's End is nowhere near enough survivability. You may still get off your burst combo, but you're not going to get many passive procs unless the enemy team ignores you.
It's a neat idea, but you need to address the issue of how you'll survive.
On February 07 2013 00:32 Alaric wrote:
Yeah but who gets the farm? And how useful is he once the laning phase ends?
The AP duo lane Monte is talking about relies on lane swaps to achieve a "normal", synergistic and balanced comp.
Laneswapping wasn't mandatory for the composition to work, it just so happened that in most of our tests it was judged to be the better option. We did have one game where we didn't swap, and in that game I destroyed an MF/Blitz combo on Ryze. Swapping is just an option, the real lynchpin for the comp to work is having a ranged AD mid, which limits your choices there somewhat.
On February 07 2013 00:42 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 23:23 Crownlol wrote:On February 06 2013 10:04 Seuss wrote:
Swain's sustained damage is above average, and I'm not sure he brings enough to the table to make up for that. It's true that putting him in a side lane alleviates a lot of his issues, but that alone isn't sufficient to justify him.
LeBlanc is an interesting option because her burst is extremely scary, and few AD duos are prepared for massive magic damage. You wouldn't pick her expecting her to carry later, so it's a very different AP duo than those we've been examining. Doublesnare certainly needs to be mentioned for a duo lane. Playing an AD mid with duo AP bot can absolutely work with Swain- however, what I'd be looking to do is play the lane with double CC. For example, Ryze/Morg, Morg/Swain, or Ryze/Swain is a little deadlier than either of those with Cass. Now, Cass has amazing zoning potential, but slightly less of the doublecc guaranteed kill. In a doublecc scenario, any time either of the laners hits their snare, someone dies. That's it. Rune prison into Nevermove into full combos from Ryze and Swain is a kill. Similarly, Dark Binding into Rune Prison into full combos from Ryze and Morg is a kill, but you also have black shield for utility. Lux is another good option for this type of double CC comp. Light binding -> Nevermove or Light Binding -> Rune Prison is a guaranteed kill. Man, I really want to play Ryze/Swain. Double tanky burst, enough peels to never get killed? Awesome. Level 2 combo would easily be 100% of a carry (or even support's) health bar WITHOUT ignite. + Show Spoiler +The thing is if you run like ryze/swain who gets the farm. A zero farm swain is really bad (his ult is much of his damage and with no items he'll just get killed instantly), but so is Ryze, as they both have really low range.
Also you kind of want one of the people's CC to be nice and long range. Obviously people are going to try their very best to stay out of rune prison, and nevermove's delay makes it really hard to land without his slow or another CC, so a chain CC with Ryze swain would end up requiring either a flash or someone dumb enough to just walk up to you.
I think running swain just for a slow and a snare is a pretty bad idea when you could just basically replace him with blitzcrank, who is much scarier at any range and has about the same level 2 damage, plus his ult is better burst and he does great with no farm.
I agree that having CC on both laners is really strong. You just really want at least one of them to be not taric range, and there really isn't any reason to run a second AP and or something just for their CC when a more conventional support will do the job much better. Leona is actually IMO stupidly strong when paired with an AP. She has three fucking stuns including a really long range one, which is already really good with an AD. When you put that with an AP with much greater burst AND a CC of their own its just stupid, you literally have over 5 seconds of stun which can be initiated at 1200 range. Also sunlight uses the detonator's magic pen when procced, so its stronger with an AP.
Your ideal support are going to be:
Leona (seriously she is so good with an AP)
Blitz (great if you plan on zoning them)
Thresh (if you are worried about jungle ganks or having no escape on your AP)
Elise (If you want retard level burst and not bothering with as much CC, reliable 1075 range stun)
Zyra
I would never run a sustain support with an AP. Your advantage is burst, use it. The burst from an AP and an aggressive support is also more than enough to kill an opposing laner from 100% if they decide to run a sustain support, so its totally pointless. Soraka isn't going to save your ass from a level 6 full combo from leona lux (her armor buff is useless anyway).
While your laner would be like:
Ryze
Cass (dosn't need to bring any CC because her damage is so high on immobile target)
Annie (not as strong, as her CC isn't always available)
Lux (seriously leona lux is so stupid at level 6)
Anivia (guaranteed Q follow up to CC, wall, and huge damage)
Viktor (his gravity field is nuts strong when used as combo CC, strong laning too and zoning, he can easily hit you under tower)
Zyra
Swain
EDIT: I'm forgetting Maokai for a support, which could work very well. He has really scary allin and excellent CC, gets big sustain from being in lane with an AP spamming spells, and gets free wards while being strong even poorly equipped later.
I don't think having CC on both champions is mandatory, provided that makes sense in both the context of the lane and the greater context of your team composition. We had one Ryze/Soraka game, and (minus some derps involving huge minion waves) they were actually a really threatening duo. It turns out that Starcall combined with an AP champion is scary as hell, even if Soraka is maxing something else.
That said, it can certainly be nasty. You're definitely right to focus on Leona as the best CC option, all she has to do is lock down a target long enough for her ally to reach their burst range.
On February 07 2013 00:46 Ketara wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Doublesnaring is the reason why our initial lane idea was Ryze Zyra. You can Zyra snare into rune prison, drop plants and doublecombo them, all while Zyra builds supporty and Ryze builds damage.
It might be a little unfortunate but I think Ryze and Cassiopeia are simply the two perfect champions for this.
Of the other suggestions made, Xerath relies heavily on his ult to do combo damage, and wants solo lane levels. He's also a good wave pusher on his own. Leblanc wants to be roaming and ganking and not stuck in top lane. Anivia wants to be 1v1ing, really Anivia wants to be 1v2ing but nobody would be stupid enough to try to siege an Anivia.
Another big consideration with this is if it was ever used competitively, the enemy team would likely mirror your lane swap, and you'd have your AP-support duo going against their ADC-support duo. Your duo has to be able to hold on in this situation. That's why I don't like Kayle, in the early game Kayle needs to last hit without her E and will take a ton of poke damage. Teemo I think is potentially viable, but would need a support that can really protect him from enemy all ins because he's squishy early and lacks good escape tools. Teemo Thresh possibly, Thresh probably provides the best disengage of any support right now.
I think what we're looking at is Ryze and Cass definitely, and possibly (should be tested) Teemo.
One advantage to Teemo over Ryze/Cass is better tower pushing ability, even if his teamfight damage is a little bit weaker. Mushrooms would also make ganking a Teemo Thresh lane a big waste of time. Teemo also doesn't really require blue buff, and the jungler could take them instead.
Edit: Additionally, in your DPS calculations, you should factor in Muramana / Glacial Fist into Ryze, and Liandry's into Cass and Teemo. The Liandry buff on the PBR is pretty big.
Double edit: Cass Blitzcrank would probably be scary. When Blitz gets a grab off you know where the victim is going to be, and the stun and subsequent knockup keeps them in that position for 2 seconds or so. Cass would be able to pre-emptively Q and W that location, and E spam them during the knockup.
I don't think we're stuck with Ryze/Cass, but I think with most other options we have to be mindful about the effects our choices will have on our team composition. Ryze/Cass have very high damage potential through scaling, which allows them to carry without being reliant on levels. Other champions (save perhaps Teemo/Kayle) have to bring something else to the table, but that also means we have to be mindful of lower sustained damage output from our AP. That means we either need to expect more out of our AD or pick a jungler who brings a little more damage.
I incidentally don't think Kayle necessarily has huge problems getting CS, and in the 4-6 second gaps between Es early on her support can always pick up any CS which aren't safe to grab via melee.
Finally, and to reiterate, we are not assuming the AP duo is 1v2. For reasons which you stated yourself that's a bad assumption (good enemies might also swap), and it's not even a necessary one for the concept to work.
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I don't think it's necessary to lane swap, but I imagine that in nearly all situations it would be advantageous. I have a little bit of trouble seeing why you would do this composition if you aren't lane swapping, since I feel like AP+Support vs ADC+Support is in general a disadvantageous situation.
Realistically, the primary reason why you would want to do this I think is if you think a ranged AD mid would be best for shutting down the enemy mid laner.
I would like to go another step with the whole thing though, and discuss possible team compositions and item/rune/mastery paths for them, to mitigate things like the mana issues and being able to take towers etc. If you're doing a composition like Ryze/Zyra Tristana Nautilus Cho'gath, you can really spread aura items out across the whole team.
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I completely disagree, AP's do extremely well vs an AD with a support.
AD are squishy
AD require time to output damage, AP dont.
If AD is dead at end of burst, they do no damage
AP often outrange AD
Just think in a real game who you really dont want to run into in the jungle as an AD even if you are doing well, its a ahri or ryze or Veigar or whatever (also a straight up ad assasin, but they have trouble Csing vs Ad). You'll just be dead far before you can do anything back.
The only times AP are weak vs AD is if they run into a situation where the AD is able to outsustain their burst in between Cd's, and/or they can't kill the AD with one round of CD's, and the ad can trade back all the damage before another round of spells come off. There is no way that should be happening if you have an aggressive support with you.
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Plus, in my opinion, even if you don't go double AP type stuff, many of the classic supports work very well with AP champions. CC supports can combo well with Ryze's Rune Prison, Cass ult, Xerath stun, or Teemo shrooms. Soraka gives infinite mana, even if your AP doesn't get blue. etc.
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On February 07 2013 02:53 sob3k wrote:
I completely disagree, AP's do extremely well vs an AD with a support.
AD are squishy
AD require time to output damage, AP dont.
If AD is dead at end of burst, they do no damage
AP often outrange AD
Just think in a real game who you really dont want to run into in the jungle as an AD even if you are doing well, its a ahri or ryze or Veigar or whatever (also a straight up ad assasin, but they have trouble Csing vs Ad). You'll just be dead far before you can do anything back.
The only times AP are weak vs AD is if they run into a situation where the AD is able to outsustain their burst in between Cd's, and/or they can't kill the AD with one round of CD's, and the ad can trade back all the damage before another round of spells come off. There is no way that should be happening if you have an aggressive support with you.
It's confusing because we're asserting that AP champions will beat AD champions, while simultaneously asserting AD champions will beat AP champions. There's some matchup dependencies here, but both assertions are actually true.
AD champions have an edge mid because they can push and sustain themselves without needing to fret about ganks (provided they have an escape plan). This is problematic for the AP champion who has to last hit under tower or expend mana pushing back. Laning against an AD is extremely difficult early on, and so long as the AD doesn't make a significant misplay they can carry their advantage forward. It helps that ranged AD are also good against AD bruiser/caster mids, whereas many AP champions struggle.
AP champions have an edge bottom because ADs take considerable risks if they push hard. The potential for either the AP or the support to start a CC-chain is also a big issue. Pretty much any champion with a ranged auto-attack and a support is safe in the bottom lane in any case.
That's why I noted the AD mid being the lynchpin. While they have advantages they are still at greater risk than if they were bottom. That's partly why the lane swap was so common, it created a situation where our jungler could primarily focus on ensuring the safety and success of the mid-lane (and that's also why Nautilus was used, his mid-lane ganks are brutal).
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One thing that I'd like to note/ask: A lot of popular mid laners are heavy roamers and gankers, champions that can shove lane and then hit bottom with the jungler or even by themselves with the laners. However, aside from post-6 Trist (jump/knockback), Varus (slow/ult snare) and Urgot (ult), no ADs can really roam for ganks, especially early on before farm/items when they can't blow people up. Do you find this as a weakness, or just something to adapt to?
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Pootie too good!4331 Posts
On February 07 2013 02:31 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 22:14 JonGalt wrote:I am a Peace Corps Volunteer in Lesotho so I can't test this (won't return to America until December 2014) but I would be interested if this is worth trying. I am curious about building Diana to proc her passive more often. + Show Spoiler [Math] + I was thinking you could build Sorc Boots, Nashor's Tooth, Wit's End, Void Staff, Zhona's.
For the last item I was thinking Lich Bane/Deathcap/WotA.
Lich Bane: Add some more mana, move speed, AP, and syngergize with her passive.
Deathcap: Straight AP, pretty self-explanatory.
WotA: This could be good, but only if her passive procs the spell vamp. I am unsure about that.
I am new to LoL and even newer to LoL theorycrafting and LoL math, but here is what I figured:
Sorc Boots, Nashor's Tooth, Wit's End, Void Staff, and Zhona's gives +255 AP and +90% AS.
Plus you get some MR, Armor, Zhonas util, and MPen. With this, if I did my math right, your AS will be 2.12 at max rank. Without Nashor's or Wit's End your AS will be 1.21. This means that if you are constantly autoing, you are procing your passive every 1.5 seconds as opposed to every 3 seconds. With these five items, you should proc your passive for 443 magic damage every 1.5 seconds!
If you use a Dcap for your 6th item it will be 571.
If you use a Lich for your 6th item it will be 491. If you proc Lich passive at the same time I think it will be 792.
If you use a WotA for your 6th item it will be 473. If WotA heals off your passive it will heal you for 95.
Maxing Diana's passive seems to me the best way to play her. With this build she still has a bunch of AP, decent MR, decent Armor, and can dish out so much damage with her AS and passive. In fact, mathematically her passive is her most powerful ability until you have 900+ AP.
Her passive is 290 + 60% AP
Her Q is 200 + 70% AP
290 + 60% AP = 200 + 70% AP
90 = 10% AP
AP = 900 is the point where Q becomes stronger.
At max CDR Q has a cd of 3.6 (I think). You can proc your passive TWICE in that amount of time. The build also doesn't sacrifice AP so much that your burst combo still isn't strong. With just the addition of Nashor's Tooth and Wit's End your passive becomes twice as effective AND your burst is still strong. I think a build like this would make Diana viable at even Top or Jungle, allowing her to trade autos or clear fast respectively. OR just be a super sick mid that can gank. Mid would still be best, but Top or Jungle might not be too terrible.
Disclaimer: All of this does not factor in any Runes or Masteries. This is also the first time I have done math on character stats so I am not sure I did it right, but it seemed correct to me. Let me know what you think! Diana tends to need to build tankier than that even as a burst AP. Her damage requires her to be in melee range, if not in the middle of the entire enemy team. As a result, Zhonya's/Wit's End is nowhere near enough survivability. You may still get off your burst combo, but you're not going to get many passive procs unless the enemy team ignores you. It's a neat idea, but you need to address the issue of how you'll survive.
You could substitute Void Staff for an Abyssal. Lowering the MR aura is basically just MPen anyway, and Diana has to be close as you say so they will kinda work the same AND give her more MR. Instead of one of the sixth items (Dcap, Lich, WotA) you could go Rylais for the added health (as I understand stacking health is the meta now a days anyway) and even utility with making her spells slow. You lose a little bit of AP, but you gain +45 MR (plus the enemy loses 20 MR) and you gain +500 health. There might even be a new S3 item that I am unaware of that could be better.
Her passive just seems so strong, it really seems like it'd be worth exploring.
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On February 07 2013 04:02 JonGalt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 02:31 Seuss wrote:On February 06 2013 22:14 JonGalt wrote:I am a Peace Corps Volunteer in Lesotho so I can't test this (won't return to America until December 2014) but I would be interested if this is worth trying. I am curious about building Diana to proc her passive more often. + Show Spoiler [Math] + I was thinking you could build Sorc Boots, Nashor's Tooth, Wit's End, Void Staff, Zhona's.
For the last item I was thinking Lich Bane/Deathcap/WotA.
Lich Bane: Add some more mana, move speed, AP, and syngergize with her passive.
Deathcap: Straight AP, pretty self-explanatory.
WotA: This could be good, but only if her passive procs the spell vamp. I am unsure about that.
I am new to LoL and even newer to LoL theorycrafting and LoL math, but here is what I figured:
Sorc Boots, Nashor's Tooth, Wit's End, Void Staff, and Zhona's gives +255 AP and +90% AS.
Plus you get some MR, Armor, Zhonas util, and MPen. With this, if I did my math right, your AS will be 2.12 at max rank. Without Nashor's or Wit's End your AS will be 1.21. This means that if you are constantly autoing, you are procing your passive every 1.5 seconds as opposed to every 3 seconds. With these five items, you should proc your passive for 443 magic damage every 1.5 seconds!
If you use a Dcap for your 6th item it will be 571.
If you use a Lich for your 6th item it will be 491. If you proc Lich passive at the same time I think it will be 792.
If you use a WotA for your 6th item it will be 473. If WotA heals off your passive it will heal you for 95.
Maxing Diana's passive seems to me the best way to play her. With this build she still has a bunch of AP, decent MR, decent Armor, and can dish out so much damage with her AS and passive. In fact, mathematically her passive is her most powerful ability until you have 900+ AP.
Her passive is 290 + 60% AP
Her Q is 200 + 70% AP
290 + 60% AP = 200 + 70% AP
90 = 10% AP
AP = 900 is the point where Q becomes stronger.
At max CDR Q has a cd of 3.6 (I think). You can proc your passive TWICE in that amount of time. The build also doesn't sacrifice AP so much that your burst combo still isn't strong. With just the addition of Nashor's Tooth and Wit's End your passive becomes twice as effective AND your burst is still strong. I think a build like this would make Diana viable at even Top or Jungle, allowing her to trade autos or clear fast respectively. OR just be a super sick mid that can gank. Mid would still be best, but Top or Jungle might not be too terrible.
Disclaimer: All of this does not factor in any Runes or Masteries. This is also the first time I have done math on character stats so I am not sure I did it right, but it seemed correct to me. Let me know what you think! Diana tends to need to build tankier than that even as a burst AP. Her damage requires her to be in melee range, if not in the middle of the entire enemy team. As a result, Zhonya's/Wit's End is nowhere near enough survivability. You may still get off your burst combo, but you're not going to get many passive procs unless the enemy team ignores you. It's a neat idea, but you need to address the issue of how you'll survive. You could substitute Void Staff for an Abyssal. Lowering the MR aura is basically just MPen anyway, and Diana has to be close as you say so they will kinda work the same AND give her more MR. Instead of one of the sixth items (Dcap, Lich, WotA) you could go Rylais for the added health (as I understand stacking health is the meta now a days anyway) and even utility with making her spells slow. You lose a little bit of AP, but you gain +45 MR (plus the enemy loses 20 MR) and you gain +500 health. There might even be a new S3 item that I am unaware of that could be better. Her passive just seems so strong, it really seems like it'd be worth exploring.
The real problem is that you absolutely need two stats for Diana AP and some form of survival ability. Theory behind Zhyona's is you charge in put every spell on cooldown then pop Zhyona's so your teammates can follow-up.
In attack speed build that would be two seconds of not attacking. So I would imagine you need pure HP, nothing else can provide better survival per gold spent, why play Diana then? You can pick Kayle or even better just get some bruiser → profit.
Also I'd like to see scenario where your attack speed build outdamages classic AP build.
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I've been doing a little preliminary research into an elise-nidalee botlane combo, banishing an AD carry like cait or tris to the toplane to mess with bruisers. So far it's performed quite well at controlling the lane and getting one or other freefarm while denying strongly. Some basic concepts
> the lane is strong because it is highly versatile and difficult to counter out. It's capable of exploiting the weaknesses of any opposing lane whether they be lack of sustain, vulnerability to poke, low burst and so on. Once level 6 arrives it's also a terrifying kill lane, with a stun into both champions launching into a shift combo more than capable of 100-0ing most carries.
> with good ward coverage it can control the bottom of the map with far more effectiveness than a normal support/adc duo in the early midgame, particularly as blue team. you can exert massive pressure on objectives on the lower half of the rift while your ADC farms up and shoves top.
>both champions aren't particularly farm dependent to be effective and you can micromanage farm and itemisation to suit the scenario a lot more intricately than with an ADC bot lane.
>in theory some good combinations are iceborn on the early farmer + shard of true ice on the early supporter to give several strong slows to clinch kills or disengage and loads of sustain to bully and control the area safely. A manamune rush on elise if she gets the early farm can be strong, increasing her Q burst and giving her a truly stupid amount of damage with skittering frenzy combined with nidalee's maxed primal surge.
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you would move an adc to top lane to mess with .. brusiers? I don't see how thats a good thing. They're gona just get brused in lane and not farm. when did nid get a stun? You didn't say anything about a double wota botlane with this in mid game objectives?
I get where your coming from but thats some werid theorycraft. seems like a double brusier poke lane tbh.
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Vayne/Caitlyn/Graves are actually strong picks against bruisers. They can harass without using mana, and if they're jumped they can quickly create distance and punish their opponent's folly. It's not a sure win, but they do well in a lot of matchups.
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On February 07 2013 08:01 Seuss wrote:
Vayne/Caitlyn/Graves are actually strong picks against bruisers. They can harass without using mana, and if they're jumped they can quickly create distance and punish their opponent's folly. It's not a sure win, but they do well in a lot of matchups.
Caitlyn especially, because not only do you have the disengage, but you can have a trap at your feet or just behind you, as well as one in the brush(for top or bot lanes) which is where most other AD's(and ranged champs in general) get really screwed over.
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I've got a Skype based D&D session on Friday, but I'm going to be doing Sion testing in bots and normals. I know it's not really as "out there" as some of the other stuff, but I want to try different builds on him in different roles to see what works. I'm already very impressed with AD Sion jungle (very safe clear, not too bad speed and E can stack well now), but I want to try some other stuff.
Namely, I'm not a fan of full AP nuke Sion, and I want to try out some AP bruiser things. For one, I want to see, with his Ult giving a lot of AS, if you can run things like Malady alongside perhaps Rageblade or Nashors for good sustained damage. I also need to test to see if his ult's healing takes on hits into account:
Additionally, Sion's autoattacks will heal surrounding allies for a percentage of the damage dealt.
If so, it gives quite a bit of survivibility for you and your team, even as AP.
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On February 08 2013 01:27 Requizen wrote:Namely, I'm not a fan of full AP nuke Sion, and I want to try out some AP bruiser things. For one, I want to see, with his Ult giving a lot of AS, if you can run things like Malady alongside perhaps Rageblade or Nashors for good sustained damage. I also need to test to see if his ult's healing takes on hits into account: Show nested quote +Additionally, Sion's autoattacks will heal surrounding allies for a percentage of the damage dealt. If so, it gives quite a bit of survivibility for you and your team, even as AP.
On-hit effects aren't realy considered to be auto-attack damage and rarely interract with anything (other then resists/pen), i doubt this will work. All the same, test away!
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Stranger things have happened. Given that Nasus Q can crit, I'd believe just about any random mechanics change you threw at me.
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EPT
