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On August 21 2012 03:14 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 03:03 barbsq wrote:On August 20 2012 17:16 TheYango wrote:
R>E>Q>W
Once people actually realize how good support farm is, they'll also realize that having a support skill that can insta-clear with 0 AP is actually OP as balls for letting a support farm efficiently. ehhhhhh idk, i feel like the bonus movespeed is a looot more valuable than more dmg on tornado. It's possible I overvalue ms (would explain my obsession with reverie), but I feel like having more levels in w is a lot more useful than having more lvls in q. Perhaps in push comps, or vs push comps, it might be worth leveling it second, but I feel like in general if you're not leveling q first (AP janna) then you want to be leveling it last. It's a support farm thing. In terms of their plain combat utility, W ranks are naturally nicer than Q, but in an environment where supports want midgame farm, but are hard-pressed to find openings to get it, it's enormously valuable that Janna can Q a wave, with a few autoattacks on melee creeps and leave, rather than having to last-hit each individual creep. Q farming power means you will have higher levels and more gold than if you leveled W while still having more time to get to where you need to be faster because you clear quickly and efficiently. In a solo queue environment that's currently still pretty inhospitable to support farm as a concept, Q ranks are pretty pointless. But as support farm gets developed in competitive play (as it already is) and slowly translates into solo queue, a support that can farm efficiently is going to be a very powerful and valuable thing.
i agree with the overall concept (is why i get lots of points in starcall on soraka, hueheuheuh), i just think u lose out wayyy too much in midgame power if you level q over w. Maybe you will get a few more lvls, but you're not going to end up with enough levels in w fast enough for it to be worth it in my eyes.
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On August 21 2012 02:19 sylverfyre wrote:
Since when is Janna weak early? She has a lot of presence with her knockup basically forcing a halt on bad engagements (it's much easier to hit knockup on both opponents when they're charging right at you.) and proper shielding wins trades hard.
She's not a hard engager like taric or leona - don't play her like one. You want to AD carry to do quick trades, where you can get the most out of the shield, then disengage using Q/W. Just because you don't hard engage on your opponents doesn't make you a weak laner.
In fact, this makes Janna one of the ideal supports to pick if you're with someone who wants to passively lane like Vayne or Ashe. Your shielding and disengaging power can allow them to not lose forced trades with stronger opponents during the laning phase.
When Janna is forced to play passive it is precisely because Janna's laning phase is fairly weak. You can't play very actively like you can with Taric, Blitzcrank, and Leona. There is nothing wrong with that, but there is a very small likelihood that you can actually kill your lane opponent with a Janna support unless your opponents underestimate you.
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Get more points in W and suddenly you won't feel so weak anymore. No point in using a Janna against Taric and Leona in my opinion, everything else has huge trouble to deny your harass, either because they can't deny your spot in the bush (soraka) and you just make a small step out, W, get back in, or because you don't have to be in that bush in the first place, for example vs blitzcrank. You get so fast with that levels in W, if you position yourself good, it's more or less free poke. ANd if a soraka silences you back before you can W the ad, you turn on soraka and kill her.
Just my experience.
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On August 21 2012 04:03 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 02:19 sylverfyre wrote:
Since when is Janna weak early? She has a lot of presence with her knockup basically forcing a halt on bad engagements (it's much easier to hit knockup on both opponents when they're charging right at you.) and proper shielding wins trades hard.
She's not a hard engager like taric or leona - don't play her like one. You want to AD carry to do quick trades, where you can get the most out of the shield, then disengage using Q/W. Just because you don't hard engage on your opponents doesn't make you a weak laner.
In fact, this makes Janna one of the ideal supports to pick if you're with someone who wants to passively lane like Vayne or Ashe. Your shielding and disengaging power can allow them to not lose forced trades with stronger opponents during the laning phase. When Janna is forced to play passive it is precisely because Janna's laning phase is fairly weak. You can't play very actively like you can with Taric, Blitzcrank, and Leona. There is nothing wrong with that, but there is a very small likelihood that you can actually kill your lane opponent with a Janna support unless your opponents underestimate you.
But engaging on a duo with janna (for example, as leona) is much more dangerous than say, one with soraka. A janna duo is more equipped to fight back an engagement and even pick up a kill off of one. I completely fail to see how that amounts to a weak laning phase just because she doesn't play like the melee supports.
This has little to do with putting extra points in W IMO.
I still pretty strongly disagree with the OP's recommendation against pairing Janna with Ashe/Vayne. What other support WOULD you want to pair them with?
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On August 22 2012 22:13 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 04:03 Sufficiency wrote:On August 21 2012 02:19 sylverfyre wrote:
Since when is Janna weak early? She has a lot of presence with her knockup basically forcing a halt on bad engagements (it's much easier to hit knockup on both opponents when they're charging right at you.) and proper shielding wins trades hard.
She's not a hard engager like taric or leona - don't play her like one. You want to AD carry to do quick trades, where you can get the most out of the shield, then disengage using Q/W. Just because you don't hard engage on your opponents doesn't make you a weak laner.
In fact, this makes Janna one of the ideal supports to pick if you're with someone who wants to passively lane like Vayne or Ashe. Your shielding and disengaging power can allow them to not lose forced trades with stronger opponents during the laning phase. When Janna is forced to play passive it is precisely because Janna's laning phase is fairly weak. You can't play very actively like you can with Taric, Blitzcrank, and Leona. There is nothing wrong with that, but there is a very small likelihood that you can actually kill your lane opponent with a Janna support unless your opponents underestimate you. But engaging on a duo with janna (for example, as leona) is much more dangerous than say, one with soraka. A janna duo is more equipped to fight back an engagement and even pick up a kill off of one. I completely fail to see how that amounts to a weak laning phase just because she doesn't play like the melee supports. This has little to do with putting extra points in W IMO. I still pretty strongly disagree with the OP's recommendation against pairing Janna with Ashe/Vayne. What other support WOULD you want to pair them with?
I feel that they work better with Alistar, Taric, or Blitzcrank.
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Well i can see those supports working for vayne, as they can lock someone down long enough for condemn to do some burst. Ahe on the other hand, doesn't have enough burst to justify a cc support. Of course, if ashe ults a grab of blitz, the grabbed one is dead. But the Ashe lane will just not be able to zone someone enough to get that cc down in the first place. So, why not a more defensive ranged support with them?
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lmao @ blitz with ashe/vayne. Janna can be played aggressively or passively. You can kill people or straight up or kill by disengage. Janna is probably the best support for Ashe, and by far the safest support for Vayne. Pleeeeeeeeease stop with the bad opinions holy shit.
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On August 23 2012 01:33 Broetchenholer wrote:
Well i can see those supports working for vayne, as they can lock someone down long enough for condemn to do some burst. Ahe on the other hand, doesn't have enough burst to justify a cc support. Of course, if ashe ults a grab of blitz, the grabbed one is dead. But the Ashe lane will just not be able to zone someone enough to get that cc down in the first place. So, why not a more defensive ranged support with them?
The problem is that Ashe and Vayne do no do enough damage either to win a trade even if she gets shielded properly. It goes both ways.
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no it doesnt.. you play the lane wrong
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On August 23 2012 01:44 zulu_nation8 wrote:
no it doesnt.. you play the lane wrong
Can you stop participating in this thread if you are just here to make witty remarks?
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youre giving straight up bad advice, and it's clear you don't play enough Janna to know how she works yet you wrote a guide.
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A well-timed shield -> volley+auto will respond very well to trades, ashe pokes well and likes a lanemate that wants to play the poke game as well (like Sona and Janna) You want to play the kiting game with Ashe. Harass/outrange with autos/volley (which both slow) and Janna works very well with this by making the harass hurt more and counter-trades hurt less (shield) AND stop the enemy duo from hard-engaging (tornado, slow)
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On August 23 2012 02:04 zulu_nation8 wrote:
youre giving straight up bad advice, and it's clear you don't play enough Janna to know how she works yet you wrote a guide.
Why don't you write one then, since you are so experienced with her.
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On August 23 2012 02:05 sylverfyre wrote:
A well-timed shield -> volley+auto will respond very well to trades, ashe pokes well and likes a lanemate that wants to play the poke game as well (like Sona and Janna) You want to play the kiting game with Ashe. Harass/outrange with autos/volley (which both slow) and Janna works very well with this by making the harass hurt more and counter-trades hurt less (shield) AND stop the enemy duo from hard-engaging (tornado, slow)
Perhaps. I need to play this pairing more.
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On August 23 2012 01:41 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 01:33 Broetchenholer wrote:
Well i can see those supports working for vayne, as they can lock someone down long enough for condemn to do some burst. Ahe on the other hand, doesn't have enough burst to justify a cc support. Of course, if ashe ults a grab of blitz, the grabbed one is dead. But the Ashe lane will just not be able to zone someone enough to get that cc down in the first place. So, why not a more defensive ranged support with them? The problem is that Ashe and Vayne do no do enough damage either to win a trade even if she gets shielded properly. It goes both ways.
Since zulu_nation8 is unable to give you an answer, i'll give it. Take it or leave it.
Janna excels at disengaging trades. Unlike some of the supports you mentioned, she can't just randomly tornado someone and expect to go in and win a trade, you have to make the enemy commit to a fight and then cc, shield, slow, ult, exhaust whatever comes into your mind that will make sure you win the trade. It's not like taric where you run up E -> R -> W and then burst someone down but rather waiting for the initiation from the opposing team, shielding and keeping your ad safe. It's really hard putting down on paper how you exactly play a champion that needs the most synergy with your ad, but janna/ashe and janna/vayne have been old-time lanes for a reason.
Janna/Ashe
Imo the strongest of the 2 setup especially since vayne lost alot of her damage. The match-up should be played rather passively. If you're versus a sona, corki, ezreal or cait try and set up shield+volley trades as they are fairly strong. If they get too near ashe, use tornado have her kite them with her slow. Your slow from W should be put on the person you believe have the greatest advantage of dealing the extra damage or the person you are almost killing. It is extremely hard to pull off trades because the lane is generally safe. You will most likely lose the turret first, unless you get jungle help, but it should be ok as you vastly outscale any opposing bot-lane in team fights.
After lvl 6 get your jungler and/or mid to come bot and set up nice ganks. The slow+stun from ashe, your tornado and exhaust makes it very hard to enemies to get away.
Janna/Vayne
I see this lane from time to time, but i feel like unless you play more of a farm-fest lane, you're bound to lose. The same rules apply as for ashe. Save shield for when enemy try and trade with you, use Q to keep both of you safe etc. Vayne should feel an increase in her power-curve when she gets her bf and another when she gets her BT and start stacking up. The sustain from BT and your shield helps her make the 3 auto trade for her W, but generally you should avoid fighting agressive laners like blitz/leona/taric unless they make a serious mistake. Have vayne set up an E into the wall, make sure she gets shielded when dealing her initial burst and just keep her protected. Avoid using Q agressively, vayne shouldn't be having any problems catching up to the enemies, but if she gets donked on, she is alot more vurnerable than ashe (and she doesn't have the slow either).
Oh and blitz+ashe is a pretty bad lane, even their lvl 6 burst is so mediocre if the enemy ad is smart and take cleanse. Odd duo-lane imho.
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I foresee myself yelling SUPPORT OR FEED for the next little while :3
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On August 23 2012 06:15 Sufficiency wrote:
I foresee myself yelling SUPPORT OR FEED for the next little while :3
This line never fails to get a chuckle, though one thing more people need to start doing is using Janna' ulti as an agressive initiate if the opportunity presents itself, if you notice most AD/AP Carries positioning in 5v5 engagements can sometimes slip a bit and present an opportunity for a Flash+R to seperate them from their team.
I also like to run my runes/masteries a bit different(1600~ and rising ELO when I used to ranked for what it's worth) running a 0/15/15 with initiatior and armour/gp10/mp5pl/gp10, I might give the 0/9/21 style a shot but the movespeed and other defensive stats I've found help win out against the current wave of agressive botlanes before you can get your HoG/Philo happening, she's also one of the only supports I still like going Kages>DFG on. I also prefer to get an Aegis before Shurelia' on Janna as her global passive tends to be enough and the extra stats from Aegis helps with how early teamfights break out as well as being fairly smooth to build into as laning phase starts to tick over.
Also Janna+Draven lane is hilariously awesome, spinning blades hitting for 1/3 of someones lifebar at level 1? Yes please.
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On September 18 2012 14:12 Skithiryx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 06:15 Sufficiency wrote:
I foresee myself yelling SUPPORT OR FEED for the next little while :3 This line never fails to get a chuckle, though one thing more people need to start doing is using Janna' ulti as an agressive initiate if the opportunity presents itself, if you notice most AD/AP Carries positioning in 5v5 engagements can sometimes slip a bit and present an opportunity for a Flash+R to seperate them from their team. I also like to run my runes/masteries a bit different(1600~ and rising ELO when I used to ranked for what it's worth) running a 0/15/15 with initiatior and armour/gp10/mp5pl/gp10, I might give the 0/9/21 style a shot but the movespeed and other defensive stats I've found help win out against the current wave of agressive botlanes before you can get your HoG/Philo happening, she's also one of the only supports I still like going Kages>DFG on. I also prefer to get an Aegis before Shurelia' on Janna as her global passive tends to be enough and the extra stats from Aegis helps with how early teamfights break out as well as being fairly smooth to build into as laning phase starts to tick over. Also Janna+Draven lane is hilariously awesome, spinning blades hitting for 1/3 of someones lifebar at level 1? Yes please.
I guess if you can make the right call it's probably worth it to initiate with Janna, but you will almost guarantee to die because you will practically be surrounded by the enemy team... also Flash range.... hmmm....
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On September 18 2012 14:44 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 14:12 Skithiryx wrote:On August 23 2012 06:15 Sufficiency wrote:
I foresee myself yelling SUPPORT OR FEED for the next little while :3 This line never fails to get a chuckle, though one thing more people need to start doing is using Janna' ulti as an agressive initiate if the opportunity presents itself, if you notice most AD/AP Carries positioning in 5v5 engagements can sometimes slip a bit and present an opportunity for a Flash+R to seperate them from their team. I also like to run my runes/masteries a bit different(1600~ and rising ELO when I used to ranked for what it's worth) running a 0/15/15 with initiatior and armour/gp10/mp5pl/gp10, I might give the 0/9/21 style a shot but the movespeed and other defensive stats I've found help win out against the current wave of agressive botlanes before you can get your HoG/Philo happening, she's also one of the only supports I still like going Kages>DFG on. I also prefer to get an Aegis before Shurelia' on Janna as her global passive tends to be enough and the extra stats from Aegis helps with how early teamfights break out as well as being fairly smooth to build into as laning phase starts to tick over. Also Janna+Draven lane is hilariously awesome, spinning blades hitting for 1/3 of someones lifebar at level 1? Yes please. I guess if you can make the right call it's probably worth it to initiate with Janna, but you will almost guarantee to die because you will practically be surrounded by the enemy team... also Flash range.... hmmm....
Flash ults are fairly easy to pull off, It does seem to be a problem I see with alot of Janna(and most Pub supports I see) where they only ever play passive/defensive styles where I find Janna to be fairly unique that you can go from Passive to Agressive in a heartbeat and setup some sweet plays but alot of people miss out because they just kind of hang around and figure they're doing a good job because they shield the ADC and that's it and then pat themselves on the back because they're 2/0/16, If I can die to ensuer we win a fight/get my carry more fed then I'm going to do it near everytime.
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EPT
