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Janna, the Storm's Fury
Wiki Link (skills, stats, patch notes, etc.)
My name is Sufficiency and I am a self-dubbed 900 Elo player (but I am sure you know my Elo brackets if you played with me before). While I mainly play the mid lane and consider it my best role, I also play a lot of supports - in fact I play and own all the supports beside Sona and Lulu.
This guide will focus on playing Janna as a support - happened to be my favourite support. While Janna can also be played as "AP" in mid and top lane via her high AP ratio and wave clear with Q, AP Janna has some issues due to weak trading, short autoattack range, and late full wave clear until Q is at rank 4. Yes, I know AP Janna has been played in pro tournaments before, but IMHO AP Janna is not suitable for soloQ.
Despite nerfs in almost every patch this year, support Janna is still one of the most popular supports at any level, boasting her rounded kit, global presence, and late game power. She also enjoys relative popularity in tournament plays. Among shield-based supports (Janna, Lulu, Karma), Janna still rules supreme since Lulu and Karma are clearly lackluster.
Pros and Cons:
Pros: - Borderline broken passive - Strong peel and protection for ADC - Strong late game - Strong against AOE team comps - Relatively hard to counter in lane - Lots of CC and utility - Able to make big plays - Makes you breathless for only $2.95 a minute
Cons: - Relatively weak laning phase in general - High skillcap for E and R usage - Does not fit into certain team comps - Squishy - Low auto attack range (the only conventional ranged support without 550 auto range... unless you also count Karma as conventional)
Abilities: Tailwind (innate) Increases the movement speed of all allied champions by 3%. This bonus is lost while Janna is dead.
One of the most powerful innate passive in the game. If you follow scarra's stream, he claims that this passive is broken and should be nerfed; I don't share his belief (possibly due to me being biased as I play Janna a lot), but I do agree that this is a very powerful passive, something players in lower Elo brackets fail to notice. While in her own lane this doesn't actually do much (because she got tons of CC herself), the effect of the 3% movement speed boost is tremendous for the mid and top lane.
One way to see her passive's power is to consider a mid laner who needs to run movement speed quaints. If you have Janna on your team, you can save two movement speed quaints for two flat AP quaints. So in a way you get 10 AP for free, which is pretty much the same as starting with 200 extra gold. This is probably the worst way to evaluate Janna's passive's power, however, since extra movement speed is a champion statistic with infinite potential.
Howling Gale Janna summons a mighty whirlwind. She can activate the spell again to release the storm. On release the storm will fly in the direction it was cast, dealing magic damage to enemies and knocking them into the air. The damage done, knock up duration and distance traveled by the whirlwind increase for each second it channels to a maximum of 3.
This spell, minimally, provides a 0.7 seconds knock up (i.e. stun) in a line with great width and length. This is a simple skill that can peel for your ADC or even catching fleeing opponent. You typically get one point in this at level 2, then max it last.
Zephyr (Passive): Janna summons an air elemental that increases her movement speed and enables her to pass through units. (Active): Janna launches her elemental to deal magic damage and slow an enemy's movement speed for 3 seconds. The passive is not active while the ability is on cooldown.
The passive portion of this spell makes Janna really fast, allowing her to carry an Oracle with relative safety (because no one can catch up to her). When used, it provides a fairly powerful slow. Again this is used to peel for your ADC. Do know that your passive does not apply if Zephyr is on cooldown. While it can be useful to cast it while fleeing from a single pursuiter (she will always be faster than her target during the spell), you should definitely NOT use it if you are being chased by more than one opponent.
Typically you get a point in this at level 4 and max it second.
Eye Of The Storm Janna conjures a defensive gale that shields her target from incoming damage for up to 5 seconds. While the shield holds, the target will also gain an attack damage bonus. This ability can target turrets.
The most obvious use of this spell is when your ADC is about to take damage. This can be very easy or very difficult depending on the situation and your lane opponent. Typically, a good ADC will know to stay within the range of this spell so Janna can use it immediately without prior repositioning herself. In turn, as the Janna player you need to make sure her ADC is always within your range for your shield and you are out of harm's way.
At rank 5, this spell also provides 50 AD. Since a B.F. sword only adds 45 AD, you may argue that applying Janna's shield on her AD carry essentially gives the ADC free 1650+ gold. This is particularly powerful in late game where the extra AD is also multipled by critical hits and attack speed.
Note that this spell as a 10 seconds cooldown. At maximized CDR, you can cast it every 6 seconds - the spell itself actually lasts 5 seconds. In another word, at maximized CDR you can have your carry shielded 80% of the time. In fact, if your ADC has IE, PD, and LW, applying this spell increases the ADC's auto attack damage by almost 20%. This is very significant and one of the reasons why Janna's late game is so strong.
Another thing to note is the extremely high (0.9) ratio on her shield. This, in combination with the fact that the shied's AD breaks if the shield breaks, justify building at least some AP on Janna should you be able to afford it. I personally do this by getting Kage's Lucky Pick.
Monsoon Janna knocks surrounding enemies back and channels healing winds, restoring health to nearby allies each half second, for 4 seconds.
This can be the best or the worst ability in game depending if you are using it correctly. Typically, you use this to knock an enemy charging at your ADC; this spell can deinitiate almost any aggressors, making Janna difficult to gank in lane. Furthermore, the healing portion is extremely powerful and scales crazily with AP (600 base + 1.4ap with full channel at rank 3), completely negating the damage of certain AOE ultimates.
The bad part is that it can easily be whiffed by pushing almost dead opponents to the sides, completely saving him. It can also be bad if you push opponents out of your teammates' aoe spells.
Skill Order: E Q E W E R, then R > E > W > Q.
Summoner Skills: Exhaust and Flash. Unless CV gets really buffed somehow, there is no reason to take any other summoners.
Masteries: You should go for 0-9-21, such as this. Typically Janna stays very far back, so there is no need to go any deeper into the defensive tree. For obvious reasons you do not need to put any points into offense.
Runes: Quints: Avarice (1 gold/10 sec) Marks: Flat Armor Seals: Flat Armor Glyphs: Flat MR
Click here to see total effects of this rune setup
For runes, GP10 quaints are pretty standard. This allows you to get your philosopher's stone a lot faster, which snowballs your income. Seals should obviously be armor yellow. For marks, you might as well run flat armor; Janna does not poke with abilities so MPEN is useless; her auto range is also too short to make any use of AD/ArPEN marks.
For glyphs, you have some different choices. Flat MR is obviously decent, but if you don't expect any major magic damage in your lane (which you probably won't) and if you think you will be totally passive, you can also consider scaling MR. Alternatively, you can consider flat or scaling CDR glyphs.
Skill Order: E -> Q -> E -> W -> E -> R, then R > E > W > Q is typically the best choice.
Item Build:
Start with fairy Charm + 4 wards + 1 pot. Your early game goal is to get Boots-1, Philosopher's Stone and Heart of Gold (more on the which one to get in a moment). Afterward, if your jungler is aggressive and has Oracle, you should get Kage's Lucky Pick and start building Shurelia's Reverie. Otherwise, consider getting one of the Boots-2 (possibly CDR boots) and an Oracle.
Either way, after you get 2 to 3 GP10 item you should definitely get Shurelia's Reverie. After that, you can consider getting Locket of the Iron Solari, Morello's Evil Tome, and/or Zeke's Herald. The Locket is strong against aoe team comps (one of the reasons you would pick Janna in the first place), Morello's provides tons of CDR and AP (increases your shield and healing from R, again useful against aoe team comps), and Zeke's Herald provides some nice boost for your ADC. This brings you to 5 items (Boots, Shurelia, Locket, Morello, Zeke's) and you have an extra slot for wards. Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to complete this build unless the game has gone beyond 50th minute.
There are two things we need to discuss in a bit more details. First is which boots-2 to get. My opinion is that if you are pretty fed (i.e. your ADC got tons of kills and you got tons of assist) and if your team has momentum, you should get boots of mobility; otherwise, you should get CDR boots. The reason is that Shurelia's Reverie already provides 15% CDR; this, in addition to your masteries, makes you at 21% CDR. After this, building either Morello's or Zeke's will hit the CDR cap. In this case you don't need CDR boots. However, both Morello's and Zeke's are quite expensive and not something you can buy on a whim, so if you are not doing so well you might as well get CDR boots and try to maximize your CDR immediately.
Another thing is regarding Philosopher's Stone and Heart of Gold. Even if you do not expect yourself to build Locket of the Iron Solari, Heart of Gold is still a good item because it makes you less squishy. Typically, against a poky lane (say Sona, or sometimes Soraka) you should get Philosopher's Stone first. Against a kill lane (say Leona or Blitzcrank) you should definitely get Heart of Gold first. I personally also recommend getting Kage's if you are doing well - for example after you KSed kill secured in lane.
As with any support, you should always get wards and oracle.
Playstyle Janna in lane should be relatively passive. Face it, you are no Blitzcrank/Leona - you do almost zero damage yourself and your 475 range auto means that you can't realistically poke your opponent. Your main task is to cast your shield at appropriate times to negate as much damage as possible and disengage any bad trades with Q and W. Typically, you do this by you moving around while staying slightly behind your ADC, shielding him as soon as you see damage coming to your ADC. This requires you to have great reaction time, but it can also be easier/harder depending on the matchup. For example, it's very easy to negate the damage of a Varus/Caitlyn Q because they have distinct casting animations for their spells. On the other hand, you need to read a Graves pretty hard or have super-good reflex in order to negate the damage of his Q.
Since your shield provides "HP" and AD bonus, your ADC typically will come out on top in a trade should you shield in time. If things are not going well or you are getting ganked, send some Qs and Ws in your way to convince the aggressors to back off, or use R in an emergency situation.
Sometimes, you can also use your shield offensively to initiate a poke. This works extremely well with Miss Fortune, Caitlyn, and Vayne. However, as soon as you cast your shield for seemingly no reason in lane, your opponent will know that you are trying to play aggressive and back off until the shield wears off. This makes this kind of play very difficult to pull off in solo Q because you sometimes have to read your lane partner's mind. This also means that if you are playing with an ADC who can initiate with a gap closer (Graves, Ezreal, Corki) you need to stand a bit closer to him so he doesn't initiate out of your shield's range.
This is the core element of Janna's gameplay during the laning phase.
Matchups
Janna works with most other ADCs, but ultimately her laning phase is pretty passive. If you are supporting an ADC which is strong in early game and weak in late game, you may feel the lane is awkward because you cannot provide a lot of aggression like some other more aggressive supports can. Also I think she is pretty bad with Tristana.
As for the opposing laners, I feel that unless you are really good, it's difficult to beat a Soraka lane as Janna. In fact I think Soraka is Janna's ultimate counter in lane. Even though your shield has a 10 seconds cooldown and Soraka's heal has 20 seconds, it's difficult to play extremely aggressively during the 10 seconds gap which your shield is available and her heal isn't, unless you have a very aggressive ADC who can initiate in some sort of way. Also, it's easier for you to misplay and screw up your shield than Soraka screwing up her heal (she won't screw up, because it's so freaking easy to use). Finally, typically against Soraka lane without any sustain, you need to kill your opponent in one go which is difficult for Janna; this goes back to the problem of Janna's passive laning phase.
Another difficult matchup is against Sona, for similar reasons. It's also pretty hard to shield Sona's Q properly due to its high projectile speed.
On the other hand, Janna is pretty strong against Taric, Leona, and Alistar due to her ability to disengage. She also does OK against Blitzcrank pre-6. But in general you cannot achieve great lane dominance.
Late Game In a typical teamfight, Janna can easily "persuade" opposing bruisers to get off her ADC via uses of Q, W, E, R, Locket, and Shurelia. She simply has some of the best tools possible for protecting ADCs. Against AOE comps, a nicely placed ultimate will push away Morgana and Kennen, or disengage the enemies in general in case your team is hit by Vladimir's R.
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Ive heard a few people discussing only leveling Janna's ultimate at level 6 because of the up in the mana cost while not healing a ton until lategame when you have some AP. Since Her ultimate is 75% of the time used to disengage, should you leave her ult at level 1 until level 17 or level it up as soon as it comes available?
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On August 20 2012 06:06 57 Corvette wrote: Ive heard a few people discussing only leveling Janna's ultimate at level 6 because of the up in the mana cost while not healing a ton until lategame when you have some AP. Since Her ultimate is 75% of the time used to disengage, should you leave her ult at level 1 until level 17 or level it up as soon as it comes available?
I just level her R as soon as possible.
Keeping her R at level 1 is an interesting thought, but ranking up her R also decreases cooldown and the extra mana cost is not much an issue for Janna after the laning phase. Also I think her R's heal has often being overlooked - it is very powerful in my opinion.
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Level her R as much as possible. The cooldown is nice and mana cost is almost never an issue.
For comparison though, the heal on janna's ultimate is stronger than the heal on soraka's ultimate. Rank 2 of monsoon is equal to the max rank of soraka's wish, it just takes time to heal people up with.
In lane, to live through a gank, tornado the person who has CC first, save your ultimate until a gapcloser gets used and if they're still able to chase you down, W the nearest damage dealer or cc packing enemy.
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I usually leave lvl 2 ult for ~ lvl 14-16ish. Getting both shield and zephyr maxed are a much bigger priority than monsoon imo. Also, something to mention is that janna can get away with lvl 1 boots for a hell of a lot longer than most other supports, and indeed most other champs.
RE: laning. Janna has a ton of potential for dealing considerable dmg early on, it all depends on how you do your rune/mastery setup. In lanes where you basically just want your ADC to just farm, then yes, you're going to want to go with the fairly standard gold runes/masteries and forgo early aggression to use shield almost strictly as mitigation. The other two options are: A) build very similar to an ADC yourself, max shield, and go to town with autoattacks. I would recommend movespeed quints with this setup, as it relies a lot on having a massive ms advantage over your opponent so you can quickly dart in and out with autos when the ADC tries to last hit. This works better the lower range your opponent is. B) build like an AP caster and max zephyr first. If you have good bush control, you can be quite aggressive since zephyr has such a low cooldown, fairly high range, and does substantial dmg
Imo, the teamfighting section could use some love (also i would recommend moving it to playstyle, since I thought it was your conclusion at first). Janna is a teamfight goddess, and there's tons of stuff to cover, like when you want to be using tornadoes for poke, when you want to be using ult offensively or defensively, etc.
I personally play a very defensive style janna, basically standing a bit behind the ADC and waiting with tornadoes, shields and zephyrs for incoming bruisers, ofc using monsoon if the ADC looks fucked. More aggressive styles can work as well, mostly due to janna's stupid movespeed (i have had more ms @ lvl 1 with no boots than some who buy boots, and almost always have more ms with boots 1 than champs with boots 2)
just throwing it out there, but i got to my top rating (1575) playing mostly support, and some ADC (then i tanked my elo playing stuff like top, jungle and mid, but that's a different story), top 3 most played champs atm are janna, soraka, sona. Take it how you wish.
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On August 20 2012 12:37 barbsq wrote: I usually leave lvl 2 ult for ~ lvl 14-16ish. Getting both shield and zephyr maxed are a much bigger priority than monsoon imo. Also, something to mention is that janna can get away with lvl 1 boots for a hell of a lot longer than most other supports, and indeed most other champs.
RE: laning. Janna has a ton of potential for dealing considerable dmg early on, it all depends on how you do your rune/mastery setup. In lanes where you basically just want your ADC to just farm, then yes, you're going to want to go with the fairly standard gold runes/masteries and forgo early aggression to use shield almost strictly as mitigation. The other two options are: A) build very similar to an ADC yourself, max shield, and go to town with autoattacks. I would recommend movespeed quints with this setup, as it relies a lot on having a massive ms advantage over your opponent so you can quickly dart in and out with autos when the ADC tries to last hit. This works better the lower range your opponent is. B) build like an AP caster and max zephyr first. If you have good bush control, you can be quite aggressive since zephyr has such a low cooldown, fairly high range, and does substantial dmg
Imo, the teamfighting section could use some love (also i would recommend moving it to playstyle, since I thought it was your conclusion at first). Janna is a teamfight goddess, and there's tons of stuff to cover, like when you want to be using tornadoes for poke, when you want to be using ult offensively or defensively, etc.
I personally play a very defensive style janna, basically standing a bit behind the ADC and waiting with tornadoes, shields and zephyrs for incoming bruisers, ofc using monsoon if the ADC looks fucked. More aggressive styles can work as well, mostly due to janna's stupid movespeed (i have had more ms @ lvl 1 with no boots than some who buy boots, and almost always have more ms with boots 1 than champs with boots 2)
just throwing it out there, but i got to my top rating (1575) playing mostly support, and some ADC (then i tanked my elo playing stuff like top, jungle and mid, but that's a different story), top 3 most played champs atm are janna, soraka, sona. Take it how you wish.
Option A) I've tried before. Honestly it's not that great imo, because Janna's auto range is abysmal and she is squishy. There is no reason for you to do it when your ADC can do it better (he will definitely also have the ArPen masteries and often some skills that scales with AD). I can understand doing this with Sona though.
Option B), well, why not play Sona X_X. Sona's Q does 30 less base damage at rank 5, but it also has one second shorter CD (and flat). Sona also has sustain and power chord passive. Also Sona's Q is 100 distance longer.
I foresee this guide to be a work-in-progress. It's just that it's already getting awfully long.... we'll see.
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I think you should add a wider choice of quints i.e hp quints vs some lanes and ms quints if you like being fast.
Not gonna argue too much over the item sections but don't advocate a kage's lucky pick if you're ahead.
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sona isn't just strictly better than janna in lane. To begin with, janna's bonus AD on shield is well more than double the bonus AD on sona's offense aura, the shield is double the amount of hp given by sona's heal. Sona also doesn't have the ridiculous movespeed advantage that janna does. Janna easily gets away with a lot more crap in terms of range by virtue of how fast she moves, and a lot of the way she works in lane is about taking advantage of that. If she had any more range, she would be simply broken, and tbh, could probably be played as an ADC. Idk, you're comparing these little things in bits and pieces, and it completely sells janna's kit short.
i mean, after all, if you're just going to play passively in lane, why not just get soraka? I hate that argument, it just goes nowhere.
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United States47024 Posts
R>E>Q>W
Once people actually realize how good support farm is, they'll also realize that having a support skill that can insta-clear with 0 AP is actually OP as balls for letting a support farm efficiently.
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Janna is so op. I just started playing her after playing a lot of alistar + soraka and omg janna is so powerful :D
And her laugh is awesome.
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On August 20 2012 17:13 barbsq wrote: sona isn't just strictly better than janna in lane. To begin with, janna's bonus AD on shield is well more than double the bonus AD on sona's offense aura, the shield is double the amount of hp given by sona's heal. Sona also doesn't have the ridiculous movespeed advantage that janna does. Janna easily gets away with a lot more crap in terms of range by virtue of how fast she moves, and a lot of the way she works in lane is about taking advantage of that. If she had any more range, she would be simply broken, and tbh, could probably be played as an ADC. Idk, you're comparing these little things in bits and pieces, and it completely sells janna's kit short.
i mean, after all, if you're just going to play passively in lane, why not just get soraka? I hate that argument, it just goes nowhere.
Soraka indeed plays passive in lane, but her strength fades when teamfights start.
Also perhaps you misunderstood. I am saying that Janna has problems against sustain lanes such as Soraka and Sona. I am not saying Sona is strictly better than Janna in every aspect. NOT EVEN CLOSE.
On August 20 2012 16:35 Sponkz wrote: I think you should add a wider choice of quints i.e hp quints vs some lanes and ms quints if you like being fast.
Not gonna argue too much over the item sections but don't advocate a kage's lucky pick if you're ahead.
I think Janna is the only support which I would build Kage's on because of her high AP ratio. It provides 22 extra points on her shield and 35 more points of healing. Totally worth it imo.
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The problem with kage's imo is that you're never getting deathfire grasp. Spending 765 gold is just too much for +22 on shield and 35 extra health (i assume per second?) on your ult when that gold could almost give you ruby+nmm for your aegis. Aura items so much more worth it. Face it, you're not an ap carry, and your budget is not gonna be higher than 8,5k-9k on average, 765 gold is too much.
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On August 20 2012 23:26 Sponkz wrote: The problem with kage's imo is that you're never getting deathfire grasp. Spending 765 gold is just too much for +22 on shield and 35 extra health (i assume per second?) on your ult when that gold could almost give you ruby+nmm for your aegis. Aura items so much more worth it. Face it, you're not an ap carry, and your budget is not gonna be higher than 8,5k-9k on average, 765 gold is too much.
The catch is that you get most of the gold back since it's a GP10.
The tome itself costs 435 and the recipe costs 330 gold. Since you also get an extra 5 AP (which is worth 100g), the item itself isn't too bad. There is definitely room to argue if the extra AP is useful on Janna, however.
There is always the option of building Morello's Evil Tome.
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The catch here is, that (i repeat myself here) YOU ARE NOT AN AP CARRY, STOP ACTING LIKE IT'S EFFECTIVE!
It's not whether it's cost-effective, ap is good on janna (or any support in that regard) it's about you delaying the stuff that makes you good (low-budget aura items) instead of spending 765 gold for an item that basically should only be bought if you're actually buying the the item it upgrades into. Sure the ap is nice, but gold is the most precious and useful way of the support, spend it wisely. Cost-efficiency wise sure you are right. It won't take that long before the upgrade has paid for itself, but you will delay your zeke's, your aegis and/or your reverie by 765 gold which is where your focus should be on and you're saving up a slot for mediocre/useless stats (you ain't stacking ap, you don't spec 21 offensive etc.).
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I play Janna completely different then the OP and most others of you are suggesting if i get away with it. If i play with a safe ADC that won't get traded down too much, so, not with Vayne against a Graves, i skill EWWQ R-> W->E->Q. That works surprisingly well against a soraka lane. With maxed W and no boots, you have sth around 380 MS if i recall correctly, you will have lane control anyway against a soraka, so, you can poke and poke and poke and poke. The CD is seriously non existant and the mana-cost is just laughable. A soraka will be able to heal the damage you just did, but she is oom way before you and the next w that lands is an engage. As most ADC really hate it to get about 1/6 of their health taken by a single spell, they do sth very predictrable. They run back. This gives you sooooo much time to get a q on them, and your ad can close the gap and do whatever he likes. Of course, their are limitations to this tactic and i strongly do not recommend using it against Graves/taric or ezreal, or caitlyn or a tristana. But you will know the comps when you see them. And once you are ahead in lane, stop putting points in E, your kit is so extremely good at zoning, that too many points in E early on ar wasted in my opinion. Additionally, E is really expensive for a spell that cannot be used safely. Shield at the wrong time, your ADC can't damage and doesn't get damage and you just spent 100 mana on higher ranks for nothing.
Now, why not use a champ like lulu or sona if you want to poke? Because you have such a much better lategame.
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Couldn't a soraka E you as you come in like this? Your W is so short range comparitively, and Ebanana + autos from the ad carry aren't going to be very fun to just run straight into, get silenced... then what. Wait for silence to wear off then W? Back off and give nothing back in trade? If your AD carry is committing, the heal is impossible to trade with when you don't have a big shield to give him while the opposing AD has a pile of armor + a heal.
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"However, imo her early laning phase is pretty weak, so pairing with an ADC with weak laning phase may yield bad results. In particular I think Janna should not be played with Vayne or Ashe, because you will simply get bullied really hard, even though your late game abilities to protect them is unmatched. I also don't think it's a good idea to pair her with Tristana, because Tristana does not have AD ratios and she needs to play aggressive in the early game."
wat
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Since when is Janna weak early? She has a lot of presence with her knockup basically forcing a halt on bad engagements (it's much easier to hit knockup on both opponents when they're charging right at you.) and proper shielding wins trades hard.
She's not a hard engager like taric or leona - don't play her like one. You want to AD carry to do quick trades, where you can get the most out of the shield, then disengage using Q/W. Just because you don't hard engage on your opponents doesn't make you a weak laner.
In fact, this makes Janna one of the ideal supports to pick if you're with someone who wants to passively lane like Vayne or Ashe. Your shielding and disengaging power can allow them to not lose forced trades with stronger opponents during the laning phase.
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On August 20 2012 17:16 TheYango wrote: R>E>Q>W
Once people actually realize how good support farm is, they'll also realize that having a support skill that can insta-clear with 0 AP is actually OP as balls for letting a support farm efficiently. ehhhhhh
idk, i feel like the bonus movespeed is a looot more valuable than more dmg on tornado. It's possible I overvalue ms (would explain my obsession with reverie), but I feel like having more levels in w is a lot more useful than having more lvls in q. Perhaps in push comps, or vs push comps, it might be worth leveling it second, but I feel like in general if you're not leveling q first (AP janna) then you want to be leveling it last.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 21 2012 03:03 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 17:16 TheYango wrote: R>E>Q>W
Once people actually realize how good support farm is, they'll also realize that having a support skill that can insta-clear with 0 AP is actually OP as balls for letting a support farm efficiently. ehhhhhh idk, i feel like the bonus movespeed is a looot more valuable than more dmg on tornado. It's possible I overvalue ms (would explain my obsession with reverie), but I feel like having more levels in w is a lot more useful than having more lvls in q. Perhaps in push comps, or vs push comps, it might be worth leveling it second, but I feel like in general if you're not leveling q first (AP janna) then you want to be leveling it last. It's a support farm thing. In terms of their plain combat utility, W ranks are naturally nicer than Q, but in an environment where supports want midgame farm, but are hard-pressed to find openings to get it, it's enormously valuable that Janna can Q a wave, with a few autoattacks on melee creeps and leave, rather than having to last-hit each individual creep. Q farming power means you will have higher levels and more gold than if you leveled W while still having more time to get to where you need to be faster because you clear quickly and efficiently.
In a solo queue environment that's currently still pretty inhospitable to support farm as a concept, Q ranks are pretty pointless. But as support farm gets developed in competitive play (as it already is) and slowly translates into solo queue, a support that can farm efficiently is going to be a very powerful and valuable thing.
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On August 21 2012 03:14 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 03:03 barbsq wrote:On August 20 2012 17:16 TheYango wrote: R>E>Q>W
Once people actually realize how good support farm is, they'll also realize that having a support skill that can insta-clear with 0 AP is actually OP as balls for letting a support farm efficiently. ehhhhhh idk, i feel like the bonus movespeed is a looot more valuable than more dmg on tornado. It's possible I overvalue ms (would explain my obsession with reverie), but I feel like having more levels in w is a lot more useful than having more lvls in q. Perhaps in push comps, or vs push comps, it might be worth leveling it second, but I feel like in general if you're not leveling q first (AP janna) then you want to be leveling it last. It's a support farm thing. In terms of their plain combat utility, W ranks are naturally nicer than Q, but in an environment where supports want midgame farm, but are hard-pressed to find openings to get it, it's enormously valuable that Janna can Q a wave, with a few autoattacks on melee creeps and leave, rather than having to last-hit each individual creep. Q farming power means you will have higher levels and more gold than if you leveled W while still having more time to get to where you need to be faster because you clear quickly and efficiently. In a solo queue environment that's currently still pretty inhospitable to support farm as a concept, Q ranks are pretty pointless. But as support farm gets developed in competitive play (as it already is) and slowly translates into solo queue, a support that can farm efficiently is going to be a very powerful and valuable thing. i agree with the overall concept (is why i get lots of points in starcall on soraka, hueheuheuh), i just think u lose out wayyy too much in midgame power if you level q over w. Maybe you will get a few more lvls, but you're not going to end up with enough levels in w fast enough for it to be worth it in my eyes.
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On August 21 2012 02:19 sylverfyre wrote: Since when is Janna weak early? She has a lot of presence with her knockup basically forcing a halt on bad engagements (it's much easier to hit knockup on both opponents when they're charging right at you.) and proper shielding wins trades hard.
She's not a hard engager like taric or leona - don't play her like one. You want to AD carry to do quick trades, where you can get the most out of the shield, then disengage using Q/W. Just because you don't hard engage on your opponents doesn't make you a weak laner.
In fact, this makes Janna one of the ideal supports to pick if you're with someone who wants to passively lane like Vayne or Ashe. Your shielding and disengaging power can allow them to not lose forced trades with stronger opponents during the laning phase.
When Janna is forced to play passive it is precisely because Janna's laning phase is fairly weak. You can't play very actively like you can with Taric, Blitzcrank, and Leona. There is nothing wrong with that, but there is a very small likelihood that you can actually kill your lane opponent with a Janna support unless your opponents underestimate you.
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Get more points in W and suddenly you won't feel so weak anymore. No point in using a Janna against Taric and Leona in my opinion, everything else has huge trouble to deny your harass, either because they can't deny your spot in the bush (soraka) and you just make a small step out, W, get back in, or because you don't have to be in that bush in the first place, for example vs blitzcrank. You get so fast with that levels in W, if you position yourself good, it's more or less free poke. ANd if a soraka silences you back before you can W the ad, you turn on soraka and kill her.
Just my experience.
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On August 21 2012 04:03 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 02:19 sylverfyre wrote: Since when is Janna weak early? She has a lot of presence with her knockup basically forcing a halt on bad engagements (it's much easier to hit knockup on both opponents when they're charging right at you.) and proper shielding wins trades hard.
She's not a hard engager like taric or leona - don't play her like one. You want to AD carry to do quick trades, where you can get the most out of the shield, then disengage using Q/W. Just because you don't hard engage on your opponents doesn't make you a weak laner.
In fact, this makes Janna one of the ideal supports to pick if you're with someone who wants to passively lane like Vayne or Ashe. Your shielding and disengaging power can allow them to not lose forced trades with stronger opponents during the laning phase. When Janna is forced to play passive it is precisely because Janna's laning phase is fairly weak. You can't play very actively like you can with Taric, Blitzcrank, and Leona. There is nothing wrong with that, but there is a very small likelihood that you can actually kill your lane opponent with a Janna support unless your opponents underestimate you. But engaging on a duo with janna (for example, as leona) is much more dangerous than say, one with soraka. A janna duo is more equipped to fight back an engagement and even pick up a kill off of one. I completely fail to see how that amounts to a weak laning phase just because she doesn't play like the melee supports.
This has little to do with putting extra points in W IMO.
I still pretty strongly disagree with the OP's recommendation against pairing Janna with Ashe/Vayne. What other support WOULD you want to pair them with?
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On August 22 2012 22:13 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 04:03 Sufficiency wrote:On August 21 2012 02:19 sylverfyre wrote: Since when is Janna weak early? She has a lot of presence with her knockup basically forcing a halt on bad engagements (it's much easier to hit knockup on both opponents when they're charging right at you.) and proper shielding wins trades hard.
She's not a hard engager like taric or leona - don't play her like one. You want to AD carry to do quick trades, where you can get the most out of the shield, then disengage using Q/W. Just because you don't hard engage on your opponents doesn't make you a weak laner.
In fact, this makes Janna one of the ideal supports to pick if you're with someone who wants to passively lane like Vayne or Ashe. Your shielding and disengaging power can allow them to not lose forced trades with stronger opponents during the laning phase. When Janna is forced to play passive it is precisely because Janna's laning phase is fairly weak. You can't play very actively like you can with Taric, Blitzcrank, and Leona. There is nothing wrong with that, but there is a very small likelihood that you can actually kill your lane opponent with a Janna support unless your opponents underestimate you. But engaging on a duo with janna (for example, as leona) is much more dangerous than say, one with soraka. A janna duo is more equipped to fight back an engagement and even pick up a kill off of one. I completely fail to see how that amounts to a weak laning phase just because she doesn't play like the melee supports. This has little to do with putting extra points in W IMO. I still pretty strongly disagree with the OP's recommendation against pairing Janna with Ashe/Vayne. What other support WOULD you want to pair them with?
I feel that they work better with Alistar, Taric, or Blitzcrank.
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Well i can see those supports working for vayne, as they can lock someone down long enough for condemn to do some burst. Ahe on the other hand, doesn't have enough burst to justify a cc support. Of course, if ashe ults a grab of blitz, the grabbed one is dead. But the Ashe lane will just not be able to zone someone enough to get that cc down in the first place. So, why not a more defensive ranged support with them?
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lmao @ blitz with ashe/vayne. Janna can be played aggressively or passively. You can kill people or straight up or kill by disengage. Janna is probably the best support for Ashe, and by far the safest support for Vayne. Pleeeeeeeeease stop with the bad opinions holy shit.
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On August 23 2012 01:33 Broetchenholer wrote: Well i can see those supports working for vayne, as they can lock someone down long enough for condemn to do some burst. Ahe on the other hand, doesn't have enough burst to justify a cc support. Of course, if ashe ults a grab of blitz, the grabbed one is dead. But the Ashe lane will just not be able to zone someone enough to get that cc down in the first place. So, why not a more defensive ranged support with them?
The problem is that Ashe and Vayne do no do enough damage either to win a trade even if she gets shielded properly. It goes both ways.
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no it doesnt.. you play the lane wrong
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On August 23 2012 01:44 zulu_nation8 wrote: no it doesnt.. you play the lane wrong
Can you stop participating in this thread if you are just here to make witty remarks?
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youre giving straight up bad advice, and it's clear you don't play enough Janna to know how she works yet you wrote a guide.
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A well-timed shield -> volley+auto will respond very well to trades, ashe pokes well and likes a lanemate that wants to play the poke game as well (like Sona and Janna) You want to play the kiting game with Ashe. Harass/outrange with autos/volley (which both slow) and Janna works very well with this by making the harass hurt more and counter-trades hurt less (shield) AND stop the enemy duo from hard-engaging (tornado, slow)
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On August 23 2012 02:04 zulu_nation8 wrote: youre giving straight up bad advice, and it's clear you don't play enough Janna to know how she works yet you wrote a guide.
Why don't you write one then, since you are so experienced with her.
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On August 23 2012 02:05 sylverfyre wrote: A well-timed shield -> volley+auto will respond very well to trades, ashe pokes well and likes a lanemate that wants to play the poke game as well (like Sona and Janna) You want to play the kiting game with Ashe. Harass/outrange with autos/volley (which both slow) and Janna works very well with this by making the harass hurt more and counter-trades hurt less (shield) AND stop the enemy duo from hard-engaging (tornado, slow)
Perhaps. I need to play this pairing more.
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On August 23 2012 01:41 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 01:33 Broetchenholer wrote: Well i can see those supports working for vayne, as they can lock someone down long enough for condemn to do some burst. Ahe on the other hand, doesn't have enough burst to justify a cc support. Of course, if ashe ults a grab of blitz, the grabbed one is dead. But the Ashe lane will just not be able to zone someone enough to get that cc down in the first place. So, why not a more defensive ranged support with them? The problem is that Ashe and Vayne do no do enough damage either to win a trade even if she gets shielded properly. It goes both ways.
Since zulu_nation8 is unable to give you an answer, i'll give it. Take it or leave it.
Janna excels at disengaging trades. Unlike some of the supports you mentioned, she can't just randomly tornado someone and expect to go in and win a trade, you have to make the enemy commit to a fight and then cc, shield, slow, ult, exhaust whatever comes into your mind that will make sure you win the trade. It's not like taric where you run up E -> R -> W and then burst someone down but rather waiting for the initiation from the opposing team, shielding and keeping your ad safe. It's really hard putting down on paper how you exactly play a champion that needs the most synergy with your ad, but janna/ashe and janna/vayne have been old-time lanes for a reason.
Janna/Ashe
Imo the strongest of the 2 setup especially since vayne lost alot of her damage. The match-up should be played rather passively. If you're versus a sona, corki, ezreal or cait try and set up shield+volley trades as they are fairly strong. If they get too near ashe, use tornado have her kite them with her slow. Your slow from W should be put on the person you believe have the greatest advantage of dealing the extra damage or the person you are almost killing. It is extremely hard to pull off trades because the lane is generally safe. You will most likely lose the turret first, unless you get jungle help, but it should be ok as you vastly outscale any opposing bot-lane in team fights.
After lvl 6 get your jungler and/or mid to come bot and set up nice ganks. The slow+stun from ashe, your tornado and exhaust makes it very hard to enemies to get away.
Janna/Vayne
I see this lane from time to time, but i feel like unless you play more of a farm-fest lane, you're bound to lose. The same rules apply as for ashe. Save shield for when enemy try and trade with you, use Q to keep both of you safe etc. Vayne should feel an increase in her power-curve when she gets her bf and another when she gets her BT and start stacking up. The sustain from BT and your shield helps her make the 3 auto trade for her W, but generally you should avoid fighting agressive laners like blitz/leona/taric unless they make a serious mistake. Have vayne set up an E into the wall, make sure she gets shielded when dealing her initial burst and just keep her protected. Avoid using Q agressively, vayne shouldn't be having any problems catching up to the enemies, but if she gets donked on, she is alot more vurnerable than ashe (and she doesn't have the slow either).
Oh and blitz+ashe is a pretty bad lane, even their lvl 6 burst is so mediocre if the enemy ad is smart and take cleanse. Odd duo-lane imho.
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I foresee myself yelling SUPPORT OR FEED for the next little while :3
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On August 23 2012 06:15 Sufficiency wrote: I foresee myself yelling SUPPORT OR FEED for the next little while :3
This line never fails to get a chuckle, though one thing more people need to start doing is using Janna' ulti as an agressive initiate if the opportunity presents itself, if you notice most AD/AP Carries positioning in 5v5 engagements can sometimes slip a bit and present an opportunity for a Flash+R to seperate them from their team.
I also like to run my runes/masteries a bit different(1600~ and rising ELO when I used to ranked for what it's worth) running a 0/15/15 with initiatior and armour/gp10/mp5pl/gp10, I might give the 0/9/21 style a shot but the movespeed and other defensive stats I've found help win out against the current wave of agressive botlanes before you can get your HoG/Philo happening, she's also one of the only supports I still like going Kages>DFG on. I also prefer to get an Aegis before Shurelia' on Janna as her global passive tends to be enough and the extra stats from Aegis helps with how early teamfights break out as well as being fairly smooth to build into as laning phase starts to tick over.
Also Janna+Draven lane is hilariously awesome, spinning blades hitting for 1/3 of someones lifebar at level 1? Yes please.
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On September 18 2012 14:12 Skithiryx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 06:15 Sufficiency wrote: I foresee myself yelling SUPPORT OR FEED for the next little while :3 This line never fails to get a chuckle, though one thing more people need to start doing is using Janna' ulti as an agressive initiate if the opportunity presents itself, if you notice most AD/AP Carries positioning in 5v5 engagements can sometimes slip a bit and present an opportunity for a Flash+R to seperate them from their team. I also like to run my runes/masteries a bit different(1600~ and rising ELO when I used to ranked for what it's worth) running a 0/15/15 with initiatior and armour/gp10/mp5pl/gp10, I might give the 0/9/21 style a shot but the movespeed and other defensive stats I've found help win out against the current wave of agressive botlanes before you can get your HoG/Philo happening, she's also one of the only supports I still like going Kages>DFG on. I also prefer to get an Aegis before Shurelia' on Janna as her global passive tends to be enough and the extra stats from Aegis helps with how early teamfights break out as well as being fairly smooth to build into as laning phase starts to tick over. Also Janna+Draven lane is hilariously awesome, spinning blades hitting for 1/3 of someones lifebar at level 1? Yes please.
I guess if you can make the right call it's probably worth it to initiate with Janna, but you will almost guarantee to die because you will practically be surrounded by the enemy team... also Flash range.... hmmm....
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On September 18 2012 14:44 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 14:12 Skithiryx wrote:On August 23 2012 06:15 Sufficiency wrote: I foresee myself yelling SUPPORT OR FEED for the next little while :3 This line never fails to get a chuckle, though one thing more people need to start doing is using Janna' ulti as an agressive initiate if the opportunity presents itself, if you notice most AD/AP Carries positioning in 5v5 engagements can sometimes slip a bit and present an opportunity for a Flash+R to seperate them from their team. I also like to run my runes/masteries a bit different(1600~ and rising ELO when I used to ranked for what it's worth) running a 0/15/15 with initiatior and armour/gp10/mp5pl/gp10, I might give the 0/9/21 style a shot but the movespeed and other defensive stats I've found help win out against the current wave of agressive botlanes before you can get your HoG/Philo happening, she's also one of the only supports I still like going Kages>DFG on. I also prefer to get an Aegis before Shurelia' on Janna as her global passive tends to be enough and the extra stats from Aegis helps with how early teamfights break out as well as being fairly smooth to build into as laning phase starts to tick over. Also Janna+Draven lane is hilariously awesome, spinning blades hitting for 1/3 of someones lifebar at level 1? Yes please. I guess if you can make the right call it's probably worth it to initiate with Janna, but you will almost guarantee to die because you will practically be surrounded by the enemy team... also Flash range.... hmmm....
Flash ults are fairly easy to pull off, It does seem to be a problem I see with alot of Janna(and most Pub supports I see) where they only ever play passive/defensive styles where I find Janna to be fairly unique that you can go from Passive to Agressive in a heartbeat and setup some sweet plays but alot of people miss out because they just kind of hang around and figure they're doing a good job because they shield the ADC and that's it and then pat themselves on the back because they're 2/0/16, If I can die to ensuer we win a fight/get my carry more fed then I'm going to do it near everytime.
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Flash R can be good in lane but mostly you're bound to use it defensively.
Also i've been trying 9/0/21 and then going E > Q > W. It's not that bad if you take some cs and starting off with 10% cdr is pretty big.
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