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On May 10 2014 00:19 Ryuu314 wrote:
The problem I have with cleaver is the post-bruatlizer build up. You have to save 400 for the ruby crystal, then another ~1.2k gold for the combine cost. That's an entire bf sword in cost and can really set you back for a reasonably long time while you farm up the gold. Plus, the cleaver passive is great, but not as game changing as you'd really want it to be for the time/gold cost.
I feel like if mid is your only source of ap damage(besides support obv) then cleaver is a good investment tbh. shredding armor for your top/mid/jungle(whichever) is really good imo. especially since top will probably have 1 damage item at max it'll help them tons in that department, jungle is obviously depending on who it is tho.
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I've been going Dorans+pot -> Vamp -> BF/BT -> Bruta -> LW with Sorc Shoes lately. You play more like old twitch and try to find good ER spots in teamfights than getting really close. I use dual pen reds and 2 lifesteal/1 AD quint. Might swap the AD quint for either a dual pen quint or an armor quint just so I penetrate rune armor at level 1.
I outdueled a level 11 vayne when I was level 10 after she jumped out of the bush and bork active'd me then condemned me into a wall. No idea how, I wasn't even looking and didn't expect to win, but BT + bruta + sorc shoes at that point plus a full duration make it rain kinda wrecked her.
Only thing is that with this build it's actually really hard to last hit, the lack of AD is pretty noticeable at early levels.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WMST8f6.png)
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E max with dual pen is so much stronger than Q max against immobile ADCs
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oz3YfXp.png)
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Don't you have any mana issues spamming E?
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well i mean, that was against draven, you don't need to spam it, just e where his axe is going to land and then go in on him
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I honestly don't have any mana issues because A) I'm not spamming it, I'm just using it to punish B) Double Up costs a bit less when you don't level it and C) It's only 80 mana at all ranks anyway. I was mainly using it on Thresh that game when he overextended to punish not realizing I was E maxing. We crushed the fuck out of that lane. My Morg was a boss, though.
Also I play a bluepill heavy style on all of my champs, I believe heavily in shoving waves and buying then coming back with full resources and better items while your opponents either freeze and play from a disadvantage or do the same. I think a lot of people don't know how to control waves correctly, even progamers.
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I love that the first post hasn't been updated in so long it's recommending Wriggles...feels like forever ago that was viable.
I'm thinking about picking up MF again because I've been loving immobile spellcaster carries like Varus recently and MF was my original ADC when I started maining the position. Has the E really been buffed enough to justify a max? If you can consistently get them with the 2nd half of Q does it still do more poke damage?
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No, E max deserves some thought:
1) It's a 55 damage increase and a 10% slow increase per level compared to double up's 15 damage increase
2) The mana cost stays the same whereas double up increases (not really a big deal)
3) You will rarely be able to use more than one double up in a situation that's not all-in while you're in the lane
4) In teamfights, your main goal is to AoE
5) Your burst at level 6 with E max is 200 from 3 points in E and 400 from your ult plus a bit more from one rank in W
The last point isn't to be neglected, your burst at 6 with any form of CC is enough to immediately force a bluepill if not outright kill your lane opponents.
But again, I run dual pen and build sorc boots because it's fun.
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i switched from maxing E first to Q as a result of listening to conventional wisdom in this thread and other places and i'm pretty sure my performance suffered. in addition to the advantages already listed i think having good waveclear as an adc is underrated.
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Anecdotally: When you're with a Soraka against Draven/Janna, this E-max MF build absolutely demolishes them in lane.
After 3 more tries, the strategy seems a bit win-more for laning (it doesn't help if you get behind), but is really good for midgame teamfights if you're light on CC. I think E-max vs. Q max is really a matchup and gamestate call, I'm not really sure if devoting reds to hybrid pen over flat AD is worth it though. The big part for me was the increase in slow being extremely relevant for a lot of fights, it's negligible at rank 1.
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I went and tried the E max split pen miss fortune.
I had Zyra supp vs a jinx/morg lane. It was brutal. The aoe slow makes the root easy to land, and we both had so much dmg we could 2v3 their jungle most of the time. I loved it, I don't play adc but that was so much simpler than usual.
tl;dr: 10/10 would pick again, zyra support goes great with it.
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The slow into w auto q auto chase is insane amounts of harass, I haven't picked a spot where I got outtraded using it yet and E is great for kiting when they try to harass or all-in. As long as you tag them with it you're probably going to escape fine even if you have to blow summoners or bluepill and sometimes they just eat the full duration + creep aggro and you end up being able to commit to the fight and win it anyway. Worst case scenario is that you have to concede lane but even in that case you still have E max plus ult for teamfights which can swing games really hard.
At rank 5 E has a 65% slow attached to it. That's more than Nunu Ice Ball or Absolute Zero and it does 310 damage to boot? I don't know how many times I've been dived and thought "shit, I'm dead" but ended up coming out ahead when they eat the full duration of Make it Rain.
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Hmm, food for thought. Thank you for sharing your experiences. Is the total lack of attack speed items a problem in extended trades? Q max mitigated this issue by having a low-CD ability to use while attacking.
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W active gives attack speed, and the extra bit of onhit from the passive component kind of evens out the DPS output from autoing.
It synergizes even better with the hybrid pen because the on hit magic damage scales with AD, which is kinda weird.
Is Q an auto reset?
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On May 28 2014 23:35 ticklishmusic wrote:
W active gives attack speed, and the extra bit of onhit from the passive component kind of evens out the DPS output from autoing.
It synergizes even better with the hybrid pen because the on hit magic damage scales with AD, which is kinda weird.
Is Q an auto reset?
i'm reasonably sure it is, and as someone else stated here going E should depend on your support, I have a fiddlesticks support main I play with sometimes and he increases your magic damage by a lot, or as someone else said soraka lets you spam a lot and clear waves very fast.
I would much rather practice landing Q's with second bounce, I don't know if its said here, but if you AA, back off and then Q bounce off a minion near the champion you hit last it will hit everytime
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On May 28 2014 23:35 ticklishmusic wrote:
W active gives attack speed, and the extra bit of onhit from the passive component kind of evens out the DPS output from autoing.
It synergizes even better with the hybrid pen because the on hit magic damage scales with AD, which is kinda weird.
Is Q an auto reset?
Q isn't an auto reset, but it is an ability, so Auto-Q-Auto takes about the same time as two auto attacks. Since you've got your E on them, getting two autos should be pretty easy. Even Auto-Q is quick enough that if they can't dash/flash out they're going to take a load of damage.
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I'm gonna cross-post an AsianEcksDragon post from the forum here because it explains max E very well:
On May 29 2014 16:52 AsianEcksDragon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2014 13:13 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
I'm a huge advocate of E-max MF with dual pen and sorc shoes
Like, at level 5 Make it Rain does like 300 damage and slows by 65%, which is more than nunu ice ball or ulti I've done E-max long before the MF rework when laning against champs like Caitlyn who does not like forced trades. It's a no-brainer choice against all champs now because most of Double Up's damage have been moved from base to AD scaling which stays the same from rank 1 through rank 5 while E's slow got buffed to 65%. MF has always been more of an AD caster than a true autoattack carry because attack speed and crit become such a wasted stat while she is channeling her ult through the duration of a teamfight.
I have yet to play a lane where E max didn't devastate. Ganks go so badly when they get tagged by a 25/35/45/55/65% slow for a quarter of their health bar. Supports can land stuff ezpz and if they don't blow flash immediately or have it up in the first place then they're gonna eat a ton of one-sided harass. Honestly E max is so strong that I don't see any reason to max Q on MF.
So here's my go-to build nowadays:
QWEEER R>E>Q>W
Dorans + pot -> any combination of up to 3 longswords OR vamp scepter OR BF on first buy with some health and mana pots -> BT -> bruta -> LW/Sorc Shoes -> Defensive item usually, Ranudins or Banshees are my two personal favorites, then whatever sixth item you need. Liandry's is fun but realistically you probably want either another Thirster, another defensive item, or an aspd/ms item of some kind like triforce/PD/zephyr
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What's your reasoning for going QW on the first 2 levels? Why not go E earlier if you want to max it?
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Because double up is crucial for last hitting, impure shots adds stacking magic damage and 20% attackspeed, and I generally use levels 1-2 to feel my opponents out for mistakes I can punish later.
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EPT
