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Tried Smash's build, I was surprised how tanky you can get once you used your ult on several people (went ghostblade -> bc -> tabi -> SV).
Also was frustrated how cc can screw you over, everytime I tried to charge on somebody to pop them up, Fiddle, or Draven's E, or even the slow on Vlad's pool. I missed mercs that game. :<
Since Xin doesn't scale too well off of AD and you can only stack so much ArPen, warmogs seems like a good defensive option on top of your ult's resistances, but I'm kind of at a loss regarding the offensive options. I definitely felt the fall down late game once my base damage wasn't doing that much, and W + ghostblade won't last you a full teamfight if there are tanky targets. So should I turn over to zephyr, wit's, or another source of AS once I'm tanky enough?
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If you have max CDR I see NO way you can fall off lategame, wtf, you one combo squishies every 3 seconds or whatever it is when E + 3 talon strike is up. God knows how mcuh damage you do with ult and ignite and ghostblade as well.
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Well I couldn't chain it because of the amount of cc they had (I think less than half my Es connected during teamfight, there was always some hard cc thrown at me mid air) so maybe that was just an annoying comp and I didn't get to see Xin's "usual" power.
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If you're getting CC'd a lot you might be going in too deep/early
what's your damage doing? they're probably just DPSing tanks when you're getting focused.
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How do people skill Xin jungle and what runes/masteries/summoners?
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On December 21 2012 06:24 zulu_nation8 wrote:
How do people skill Xin jungle and what runes/masteries/summoners?
what do you mean how? He has rather been buffed in S3 since his main dps is his Q which is single target.
Anyway I jungle xin like this:
10 points in def (bladed armor and veteran scars. 1 point in summoner's resolve for the smite. All other points in AD or UT, personally i take AD). Runes I run pretty standard AD runes for jungle (arpen red, armor yellow, scaling MRes blue, quints MS as jungle).
Summoners, well flash and smite... not sure if there is any other option beside flash 
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Level 2 gank: QE, twingols -> red
Level 3 gank: QWE, wolves -> smiteless blue -> red
Level 4 gank: QWQE, standard route
After that, max either E against a team with lots of escapes, or W otherwise.
I go aspd reds & quints, armor yellows and blues. Armor pen is good, mr blues are good. 9/21/0, ghost smite. I feel like Xin benefits more from ghost, since you already have a way to get in and you sometimes need to stay close to get that third hit off. It also helps you keep up with a carry with PD or triforce.
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On December 21 2012 09:02 Tooplark wrote:
After that, max either E against a team with lots of escapes, or W otherwise.
This actually makes a lot of sense.
Most people I asked said to max Q then W. Like half said to start W lv1 and other half said Q. Not really sure what's better. I've been getting 3pts in Q then maxing E and starting W lv1 per Smash's advice.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
The only difference between starting W and Q is that you clear maybe 2-3 seconds faster with Q and that W leaves you with more health. The difference without a leash is about 3-4 seconds, so with a leash it should be pretty negligible.
Personally, I'm not a fan of W, since you need to be able to burst and get the fuck out since you're coming from the jungle and you're underfarmed in comparison to a top XZ. I like a mixture of Q and E, Q helps the jungle clear and reducing E's CD is pretty critical in a extended teamfight.
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On December 21 2012 09:02 Tooplark wrote:
Level 2 gank: QE, twingols -> red
Level 3 gank: QWE, wolves -> smiteless blue -> red
Level 4 gank: QWQE, standard route
After that, max either E against a team with lots of escapes, or W otherwise.
I go aspd reds & quints, armor yellows and blues. Armor pen is good, mr blues are good. 9/21/0, ghost smite. I feel like Xin benefits more from ghost, since you already have a way to get in and you sometimes need to stay close to get that third hit off. It also helps you keep up with a carry with PD or triforce.
I should have specified that I always max Q first, then E or W depending. Getting Q's cooldown low is really important imo, since it effectively reduces the cooldown on all your skills. The heal from W isn't a very big deal.
In other news I watched someone play AP Xin (Stinger -> Nashors, GRB). He 1v2ed a fed Warwick and a Janna and came out with more health than he went in with. It was pretty amazing.
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quick Q vs. E leveling lesson time.
Q
CD: 9/8/7/6/5
Damage/hit: 15/30/45/60/75
Total Damage: 45/90/135/180/225
E
CD: 13/12/11/10/9
Damage: 70/110/150/190/230
Slow: 25/30/35/40/45%
ok, so pretty straight forward right? Q's lower CD, higher damage/level, so max Q over E, right? this is the obvious answer and what 80% of Xin players are doing without any further thought. however, it's a shallow analysis that misses out on optimizing Xin's damage over realistic engagement times. here's where the simple analysis falls apart:
1. Q does more damage than E. irrefutably true, however, E's damage is point & click at 600 range, instantaneous, AoE and magic on an otherwise physical kit, all of which are useful attributes. in a single burst cycle of 1 E and all three hits of Q, Q realistically only slightly outperforms E on average due to armor/mres differential and in scenarios where it's optimal to prime Q to the 3rd hit before Eing in, E actually does significantly higher damage.
2. Q's CD is lower than E, ergo, putting your damage on Q nets you more dps in the long run than E. swing and a miss due to how Xin's CD mechanics actually work. Q goes on CD after the third hit, meaning that even if you have a 1.5 attack speed, you're going to have a 1.3-2.0 second delay between the cast on your Q and when it's cooldown starts ticking, regardless of any other stats. this delay accounts for part of the bridged gap between effective CDs on Q and E, and the other part is pretty simply coming from E's CD being effectively reduced by 3 from the Q hits. Even if you're at a high pre level 13 attack speed and have no CDR, a leveled E's effective CD is lower than the effective CD on a leveled Q. Not to mention that as you build CDR, the effective CD gap only widens in favor of E (since E's base CD is higher, it scales down faster with CDR).
So bam, end of discussion right? Again, wrong, this doesn't even finish off my argument as to why leveling E is better, despite the fact that this should be enough to convince you. The rest of the argument in favor of E has to do with ability flow over realistic scenarios and stickiness. let's look at a level 9 Xin with 1.0 AS and 0% CDR, note that this is absolute worst case with the E maxing Xin, as his cycles improve faster with CDR. In cases like this, regardless of skill leveling, the burst opening looks like this:
0.00 E
0.25 auto attack
0.50 Q1
1.50 Q2
2.50 Q3
3.50 auto attack
now, if you've maxed Q, at this point, E has 5.5 seconds left on it's CD, Q has 4 seconds left on it's CD and we've dealt 335 + 5.6 AD damage. if instead you've maxed E, at this point, E has 2.5 seconds left on it's CD, Q has 7 seconds left on it's CD and we've dealt 320 + 5.6 AD damage. By maxing E, we've drastically increased the damage we do in a 6-8 second burst because in the course of our standard combo, we've added in another full ability (and it's the one who's damage we've been leveling no less). It's also allowed us to double dash and guarantee our damage better via a much stronger slow %. This might look like I'm weighting this comparison in favor of E by taking such a short window after the initial burst, but in realistic scenarios, this is all you have with Xin. In a Q maxing scenario, your opponent has 4 seconds to put auto-attack range between you and him before you can Q him again, and 5.5 seconds to put E range between you and him. In an E maxing scenario, he only has 2.5 seconds to put a full E range between you two before you re-engage with a 45% slow.
So yea, max E on Xin. 3 levels of Q for opening up in the jungle is good just because of the mana efficiency of the damage, but maxing that E drastically increases your ability to chase down and butcher people after that point.
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United States37500 Posts
Point click slow + Knock up + CDR = just silliness.
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yeah maxing E has almost always been better than Q yet everyone seemed to max Q and W has always been pretty bad to max wtf
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I feel like BC is better than GB because you already get AS from W and BC has HP, am i wrong?
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builds for top should be different than jungle. If you're a solo who's taking a lot of gold you need to build damage items, if you're a jungle who needs to build efficiently, you mostly like would have to go straight tank. I only jungle xin but I usually just build straight tank but rush a BC if i'm really ahead, always wriggles first though.
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You max Q top lane because of E's mana costs and because you should be running full armor pen. You can trade with Q up every 5 seconds very well and dont have to waste precious mana on E.
max E looks way better in jungle though
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United States37500 Posts
On December 26 2012 11:12 VayneAuthority wrote:
You max Q top lane because of E's mana costs and because you should be running full armor pen. You can trade with Q up every 5 seconds very well and dont have to waste precious mana on E.
max E looks way better in jungle though
My thinking is the opposite. You activate Q in lane, your opponent is not going to let you land all 3 hits of Q on them if they're even remotely competent. Leveling E increases to slow and the likelihood of you landing your Q as a follow up.
In Jungle, make use of the AD ratio of Q against inanimate creeps. I'd only use QW in Jungle, not E. Use E as gapcloser for ganks and hope the lane you're ganking for has additional CC so you can make use of your max'd Q.
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On December 26 2012 11:12 VayneAuthority wrote:
You max Q top lane because of E's mana costs and because you should be running full armor pen. You can trade with Q up every 5 seconds very well and dont have to waste precious mana on E.
max E looks way better in jungle though
personally i put my first point into E at level 4 when jungling (QWQEEREEQE basically) because you do need 2 points in Q and one in W to jungle efficiently. For ganks the lower CD and higher slow on E is pretty mandatory. You'll seldom get off more than one Q when ganking the solo lanes, but sometimes when they flash the cooldown of E is just short enough to run them down.
In Top lane on the other hand I always max Q simply because it is more mana efficient to trade with Q every few seconds.
Curiously, does anyone buy hybrid items on xin to use his AP ratio on E and W? Personally I experimented with rageblade, but even as top lane I don't feel I have the money to afford it. Straight up tank items with a smattering of damage (phage and ghostblade basically) seem to pay off far more.
edit: Neo, it obviously depends on the matchup, but some top laners have almost no choice. They either move into Q range to last hit when you activate it, or they back off for nearly 10 seconds while you can easily use the first two hits to last hit normally. I wouldn't put any points except the first in Q against Teemo, Nidalee or Jayce, mostly because i know they will not let me hit them for the full combo unless I go full bore all in, but others like malphite, darius or even Zed really don't have much choice. They can either move into my range, or let themselves be zoned from level 3 onwards.
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EPT
