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On September 28 2011 00:32 dnastyx wrote:
The trick is to farm harder and get better, instead of optimizing for bad play.
I can't believe you throw shit like this in here. Now only because a couple of good players occasionally rushed gunblade doesnt make it any more viable than rilays. The only argument for gunblade so far is sustain and "you should be able to deal with having no rilays early-mid". For the same reasoning you should rush thirster on every melee dps without dorans blades. Gunblade rush is a high risk high reward opening and makes akali a no utility glasscannon that relies on snowballing from favorably initiated midgame teamfight.
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I've got enough AD to get that one up, but I guess I need to learn when to engage efficiently. And honestly, the 10% vamp from the passive doesn't really feel that noticeable when it comes down to it.
I start with boots 3pots, QWQE R>Q>E>W. I use my Q to last hit at times if I'm not close enough, should I not do that? Is it better to use Q to harass and miss out on that gold?
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United States47024 Posts
On September 28 2011 01:44 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 00:32 dnastyx wrote:
The trick is to farm harder and get better, instead of optimizing for bad play. I can't believe you throw shit like this in here. Now only because a couple of good players occasionally rushed gunblade doesnt make it any more viable than rilays. The only argument for gunblade so far is sustain and "you should be able to deal with having no rilays early-mid". For the same reasoning you should rush thirster on every melee dps without dorans blades. Gunblade rush is a high risk high reward opening and makes akali a no utility glasscannon that relies on snowballing from favorably initiated midgame teamfight.
OK let's clear something up:
Revolver + Rylai's - 500 HP, 15% Spellvamp, 4305 gold
Gunblade + Giant's Belt - 430 HP, 37% Spellvamp (including 12% from passive based on Gunblade AD), 20% Lifesteal, 4735 gold
How is Gunblade more glass-cannon than Rylai's-based builds?
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i dont even make revolver anyways.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 28 2011 02:00 clickrush wrote:
i dont even make revolver anyways.
Then replace Revolver with Sheen/NLR/whatever AP item you would get next. Not like you go Rylai's->tank on Akali.
Rylai's isn't some amazing magical super-tanky item. It happens to just give 70 more HP than a Giant's Belt, which Gunblade-based builds can buy wherever they feel it's necessary. The only downside of Gunblade is that the parts are mediocre before you complete it, but honestly, on a strong laner like Akali, being expected to finish 4-5k gold worth of items before 20 minutes is not exactly unrealistic, considering that's about the cost of 2 Doran's + IE for a ranged AD carry, or Rod of Ages + NLR or 3 DRing + DCap for AP carries.
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I've got a question
I had this game where I was doing all right but I noticed my minion kills was low. 2nd game I tried last hitting with my Q more and had better minion kills and was doing a lot better than my previous game.
Should I keep doing it or try to improve my last hits? ( I'm better at this with ranged champions )
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On September 28 2011 02:06 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 02:00 clickrush wrote:
i dont even make revolver anyways. Then replace Revolver with Sheen/NLR/whatever AP item you would get next. Not like you go Rylai's->tank on Akali. Rylai's isn't some amazing magical super-tanky item. It happens to just give 70 more HP than a Giant's Belt, which Gunblade-based builds can buy wherever they feel it's necessary. The only downside of Gunblade is that the parts are mediocre before you complete it, but honestly, on a strong laner like Akali, being expected to finish 4-5k gold worth of items before 20 minutes is not exactly unrealistic, considering that's about the cost of 2 Doran's + IE for a ranged AD carry, or Rod of Ages + NLR or 3 DRing + DCap for AP carries.
20 minute IE, starting dorans and getting zerker greaves is totally realistic imo.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 28 2011 02:08 Fawkes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 02:06 TheYango wrote:On September 28 2011 02:00 clickrush wrote:
i dont even make revolver anyways. Then replace Revolver with Sheen/NLR/whatever AP item you would get next. Not like you go Rylai's->tank on Akali. Rylai's isn't some amazing magical super-tanky item. It happens to just give 70 more HP than a Giant's Belt, which Gunblade-based builds can buy wherever they feel it's necessary. The only downside of Gunblade is that the parts are mediocre before you complete it, but honestly, on a strong laner like Akali, being expected to finish 4-5k gold worth of items before 20 minutes is not exactly unrealistic, considering that's about the cost of 2 Doran's + IE for a ranged AD carry, or Rod of Ages + NLR or 3 DRing + DCap for AP carries. 20 minute IE, starting dorans and getting zerker greaves is totally realistic imo.
That's exactly what I'm saying. Sorry if it's worded in a confusing way.
4-5k gold worth of items is about what you'd expect for "core" items on most laners. Gunblade+GBelt isn't out of the norm at all, and is stronger than most other combinations of 4-5k gold worth of items on Akali.
Incidentally, if you consider all the reasonable combinations of items to expect for about 5k gold:
Rylai's + Revolver + Blasting Wand
Rylai's + Sheen + Blasting Wand
Rylai's + NLR
Gunblade + Giant's Belt
Gunblade + Giant's Belt has the MOST survivability of any of those, so calling calling Gunblade glass-cannon is definitely somewhat silly.
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My english is bad.
Akali is likely to get a kill at top if the jungler stop by when she hits 6 and has 2-3 Marks ready, and the lane is not pushed towards enemy side. Free gold ezpz.
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Westrice's guide on Solomid (which admittedly hasn't been updated in a while) recommends rushing Lichbane. I'd say that's probably your "glass cannon" build.
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On September 27 2011 23:23 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 23:06 spacemonkey4eve wrote:On September 27 2011 22:55 L wrote:
Rylais doesn't set up a smoother, safer midgame. You warding the map does that. The moment you get your giant's belt, your 'omg no hp' issue disappears. Good players aren't rushing gunblade because they're trolling. They're rushing it because it gives akali absolutely freakish lane sustain which lets her rice harder and subsequently snowball harder. Rylai's benefits are completely overshadowed by gunblade unless your team has poor ward coverage and you're prone to taking stupid risks.
But hey, most teams have poor ward coverage and most akali players are prone to taking stupid risks. What? what does wards have to do anything with it? He's talking about teamfights, not farming the lane. By the time you even get your gunblade, it's drag fight stage and teams are roaming for ganks. Akali is meant to thrive in teamfights, not from farming lanes all day. Having that rylais (or most of the components of it) by the first major team fight is much more useful for akali than having parts or the whole gunblade. he obv didnt read my post -.-
You realize team fights don't just randomly happen right? Teams force fights or wander into them by mistake.
The only time you're going to get rylais much earlier than gunblade is if you skip revolver or sheen, and if you skip revolver or sheen I sincerely wonder how the fuck you're going to lane vs the majority of decent-level lane opponents in the game.
As for gunblade being an item you get once laning is over: You will generally have enough for a gunblade in under 16 minutes if you are ricing correctly regardless of kills/dragon/towers. The parts for gunblade both greatly assist in laning sustainability as well. Tome, Wand and Giant's belt? They don't.
Starting to see how picking the gimp route to akali doesn't add up?
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On September 28 2011 02:31 L wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 23:23 clickrush wrote:On September 27 2011 23:06 spacemonkey4eve wrote:On September 27 2011 22:55 L wrote:
Rylais doesn't set up a smoother, safer midgame. You warding the map does that. The moment you get your giant's belt, your 'omg no hp' issue disappears. Good players aren't rushing gunblade because they're trolling. They're rushing it because it gives akali absolutely freakish lane sustain which lets her rice harder and subsequently snowball harder. Rylai's benefits are completely overshadowed by gunblade unless your team has poor ward coverage and you're prone to taking stupid risks.
But hey, most teams have poor ward coverage and most akali players are prone to taking stupid risks. What? what does wards have to do anything with it? He's talking about teamfights, not farming the lane. By the time you even get your gunblade, it's drag fight stage and teams are roaming for ganks. Akali is meant to thrive in teamfights, not from farming lanes all day. Having that rylais (or most of the components of it) by the first major team fight is much more useful for akali than having parts or the whole gunblade. he obv didnt read my post -.- You realize team fights don't just randomly happen right? Teams force fights or wander into them by mistake. The only time you're going to get rylais much earlier than gunblade is if you skip revolver or sheen, and if you skip revolver or sheen I sincerely wonder how the fuck you're going to lane vs the majority of decent-level lane opponents in the game. As for gunblade being an item you get once laning is over: You will generally have enough for a gunblade in under 16 minutes if you are ricing correctly regardless of kills/dragon/towers. The parts for gunblade both greatly assist in laning sustainability as well. Tome, Wand and Giant's belt? They don't. Starting to see how picking the gimp route to akali doesn't add up?
While I agree, you have to be fair and acknowledge that Giant's Belt aids more in sustain than Pickaxe, and Wand gives more burst than it. Gunblade is better when taken as a whole, but I think the parts go to Rylai's.
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On September 28 2011 02:31 L wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 23:23 clickrush wrote:On September 27 2011 23:06 spacemonkey4eve wrote:On September 27 2011 22:55 L wrote:
Rylais doesn't set up a smoother, safer midgame. You warding the map does that. The moment you get your giant's belt, your 'omg no hp' issue disappears. Good players aren't rushing gunblade because they're trolling. They're rushing it because it gives akali absolutely freakish lane sustain which lets her rice harder and subsequently snowball harder. Rylai's benefits are completely overshadowed by gunblade unless your team has poor ward coverage and you're prone to taking stupid risks.
But hey, most teams have poor ward coverage and most akali players are prone to taking stupid risks. What? what does wards have to do anything with it? He's talking about teamfights, not farming the lane. By the time you even get your gunblade, it's drag fight stage and teams are roaming for ganks. Akali is meant to thrive in teamfights, not from farming lanes all day. Having that rylais (or most of the components of it) by the first major team fight is much more useful for akali than having parts or the whole gunblade. he obv didnt read my post -.- You realize team fights don't just randomly happen right? Teams force fights or wander into them by mistake. The only time you're going to get rylais much earlier than gunblade is if you skip revolver or sheen, and if you skip revolver or sheen I sincerely wonder how the fuck you're going to lane vs the majority of decent-level lane opponents in the game. As for gunblade being an item you get once laning is over: You will generally have enough for a gunblade in under 16 minutes if you are ricing correctly regardless of kills/dragon/towers. The parts for gunblade both greatly assist in laning sustainability as well. Tome, Wand and Giant's belt? They don't. Starting to see how picking the gimp route to akali doesn't add up?
lol this argument can go forever both ways. It's like trying to convince another person that your own playstyle will work for everyone else. In the end it all comes down to skill and playstyle, not some difference in the order or type of items you get. Both routes are viable if played correctly, and I would hardly call going rylais first the "gimp route". Sure if you want the sustain for farming past the 16 min mark, then go ahead. Me personally, I like to push the lane, go back, and gank other lanes whenever I can with rylais/parts of rylais, which has proven very successful.
And I don't know about you, but having hextech revolver by itself is more than enough along with her passive for sustain. I don't understand the need for more sustain and a long cd slow. I'd rather go for more AP/hp. But that's my playstyle, and I've been doing well with it. Believe me, I can't tell you how many times I ulted into a squishy during a teamfight and escape out with a sliver of hp left, something I couldn't have done had I gone gunblade first.
Seriously I can't believe that this argument has gone on for 3 pages though, and that I've been going along with it. Do whatever the fuck you guys think works for you l0l. If you win your lane and the game, then something must be working correctly.
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On September 28 2011 02:13 Fawkes wrote:
My english is bad.
Akali is likely to get a kill at top if the jungler stop by when she hits 6 and has 2-3 Marks ready, and the lane is not pushed towards enemy side. Free gold ezpz.
Akali can get kills at level 2-3 if the jungler has some decent CC. At the very least you can force a summoner's. Noc, Udyr, and Lee Sin all work very well with Akali at top if you let your lane push towards you some. Seriously if your jungle ganks for you Akali is so fucking scary even at low levels.
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On September 28 2011 02:07 Zhiroo wrote:
I've got a question
I had this game where I was doing all right but I noticed my minion kills was low. 2nd game I tried last hitting with my Q more and had better minion kills and was doing a lot better than my previous game.
Should I keep doing it or try to improve my last hits? ( I'm better at this with ranged champions )
It depends on the situation. If walking up and attacking the creep with auto-attack will let the enemy champ get off significant ranged harass on you, then use Q to last hit it. If auto attacking will allow the enemy to get off significant melee harass that you can't out trade (i.e. garen Silence + spin) then use Q to last hit. If your lane is pushed towards their tower and going in for an auto attack could leave you very vulnerable to a gank, then use Q.
Basically if you can get away with auto attacking the creep, and using Q on the enemy champ, then do that. Other uses for Q are healing, so rather than last hitting with Q, you last hit with Q + auto (to proc Q).
Basically in favourable matchups, save Q for enemy. In hard matchups (garen / lee sin), use Q to last hit and wait for your opportunity to strike.
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I wanted to try something different some games ago. went mercs, sheen, belt, soulstealer, rilays, GA. Lategame I managed to upgrade sheen into lichbane and was half way on my gunblade. I didnt plan to get sheen even before GA, but at the time I was playing top and zoneing a nidalee, so I figured I need some quick boost for my burst combo to scare her away some more. Also playing top solo opens up for delayed builds if you like to grab this or that before your core items because your not that active during the early-midgame as if you where mid. The reason why I mention this, is because I find snowballing an interesting mechanic, but I almost never do it. In this case it was a calculated thing because of the synergy it provides. GA is generally a strong item on akali I figured, because she can really do alot after the revieve, which is not true for every champ. So I wanted to include it into a build that makes as much use of it as possible. Comming back to the gunblade vs rilay opening: GA after a gunblade rush might actually work very well in theory because high regeneration+high defenses synergize well together and revieve+burst+regeneration too. Just like GA works well on Irelia too after you get mercs and trinity.
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im confused as to why you have giants belt and a built rylais in that example. typo?
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no its just the order I built the items. i got giants belt before SS and after that upgraded my belt into rilays.
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On September 28 2011 01:44 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 00:32 dnastyx wrote:
The trick is to farm harder and get better, instead of optimizing for bad play. I can't believe you throw shit like this in here. Now only because a couple of good players occasionally rushed gunblade doesnt make it any more viable than rilays. The only argument for gunblade so far is sustain and "you should be able to deal with having no rilays early-mid". For the same reasoning you should rush thirster on every melee dps without dorans blades. Gunblade rush is a high risk high reward opening and makes akali a no utility glasscannon that relies on snowballing from favorably initiated midgame teamfight.
You realize this has nothing to do with "high level play" and everything to do with the fact that he said his mechanics are poor? I'm telling him to work on last hitting and improve his fundamentals.
I don't know how you turned that into...whatever that excuse for a rant is.
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On September 28 2011 06:23 Dgiese wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 02:07 Zhiroo wrote:
I've got a question
I had this game where I was doing all right but I noticed my minion kills was low. 2nd game I tried last hitting with my Q more and had better minion kills and was doing a lot better than my previous game.
Should I keep doing it or try to improve my last hits? ( I'm better at this with ranged champions ) It depends on the situation. If walking up and attacking the creep with auto-attack will let the enemy champ get off significant ranged harass on you, then use Q to last hit it. If auto attacking will allow the enemy to get off significant melee harass that you can't out trade (i.e. garen Silence + spin) then use Q to last hit. If your lane is pushed towards their tower and going in for an auto attack could leave you very vulnerable to a gank, then use Q. Basically if you can get away with auto attacking the creep, and using Q on the enemy champ, then do that. Other uses for Q are healing, so rather than last hitting with Q, you last hit with Q + auto (to proc Q). Basically in favourable matchups, save Q for enemy. In hard matchups (garen / lee sin), use Q to last hit and wait for your opportunity to strike.
Thanks a lot.
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EPT
