EPT[Champion] Akali - Page 16
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium5120 Posts
Lich Bane vs Trinity Force. I have loosely theorycrafted a hyperaggressive Akali setup which fully embraces the hybrid power of her kit. I put 30 points in offense if I can get away with it, and if I have to go a bit more defensive, go for a bit more classic route. The hyperaggressive build is supposed to build Trinity Force as a second item and relies heavily on this. You get hybrid pen marks en quints, scaling health seals and defensive glyphs depending on the matchup. Against AD you switch one hybrid pen quint for armor since armor glyphs suck. You also take exhaust for the extra armor and mr reduction in all ins. So I've noticed that the build I'm using, which is boots -> Gunblade -> magic pen boots -> TF -> Zhonyas -> Blood thirster -> Deathcap/Rylais/... Is hilariously strong from the TF point onwards. You r, q, aa, q, e, aa/r/w and they're dead. This build also nets your a pretty big amount of spell vamp and lifesteal (I'll give the numbers later). I'm definitely going to do more research (read, play more games with it) to determine if it's actually something I want to keep developing/refining. It really seems to be a go big or go home build. But in the end I want to ask this: do you guys think it's possible this TF build could be stronger than her traditional build? Could TF outdamage Lich Bane when you have 700 ap? ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/glWC4YC.png) | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
First lets compare Gunblade + TF vs Gunblade + Lich Bane. For simplicity, I'm using your sequence + Show Spoiler + r, q, aa, q, e, aa, r TF: 183*2 [AAs] + 48.2*2 [AA onhit] + 226 [TF Proc] + 359*2 [Q] + 283.8 [E] + 305*2 [R] = Lich Bane: 153*2 [AAs] + 56.1*2 [AA onhit] + 164.75 [Lich Bane proc] + 404*2 [Q] + 285.8 [E] + 330*2 [R] = 2336.8 *Edit: I made a mathematical error here which I wasn't aware of when I wrote the text below, though much of it is still on point. The math is rough, but unfortunately it's fairly obvious that Lich Bane comes out ahead. The most important factors we ignored (e.g. armor/ressitance, level, gold cost difference) swing things in Lich Bane's favor, so it's fairly safe to conclude that Lich Bane is better for damage. Trinity Force's intangibles (e.g. Phage, crit, Health) aren't adequate compensation. Moreover, you're following TF with Zhonya's, which eliminates the only advantage TF had (i.e. higher proc damage). At that point you really need to question why you're building Bloodthirster over Deathcap/Rylai's/Void Staff. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium5120 Posts
Moreover, you're following TF with Zhonya's, which eliminates the only advantage TF had (i.e. higher proc damage). The TF proc's don't go up with buying more ad, it just uses base ad. Last two days I've compared TF + gunblade vs LB + gunblade at lvl 18, hybrid pen vs classic ap setup, and the damage between full builds. And, indeed, it's obvious that the Lich Bane offers more damage. I've calculated with in game stats, so masteries are included in the aa damage and the passive bonus magic damage etc At lvl 18 with only gunblade, TF deals 2460,52, while LB deals 2596,56 (136,04 difference in damage). With full builds, the TF build deals 4259,74, while the LB build deals 4903,84 damage (644,1 difference in damage). Same combo's have been used. However, the BT shield, the spellvamp you get, and the health and movement speed from TF, allow for more survivability, which is also crucial for Akali. Also, 30% lifesteal and 55% spellvamp is no joke. I'm still convinced the lvl11 TF/Gunblade combo is stronger than your lvl 11 LB/Gunblade combo, simply because you do more auto attack damage and you have more survivability. In the end the classic Lich Bane build will two shot a carry at lvl 18, while the TF will kind of do the same, but might need an extra dash and I guess it comes down to preference which you choose. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On October 21 2015 23:21 Uldridge wrote: The TF proc's don't go up with buying more ad, it just uses base ad. I'm aware. The point was that Lich Bane's proc did less damage than TF's when the only other item you had was Gunblade, and following up with Zhonya's closed that gap. On October 21 2015 23:21 Uldridge wrote: Last two days I've compared TF + gunblade vs LB + gunblade at lvl 18, hybrid pen vs classic ap setup, and the damage between full builds. And, indeed, it's obvious that the Lich Bane offers more damage. I've calculated with in game stats, so masteries are included in the aa damage and the passive bonus magic damage etc At lvl 18 with only gunblade, TF deals 2460,52, while LB deals 2596,56 (136,04 difference in damage). With full builds, the TF build deals 4259,74, while the LB build deals 4903,84 damage (644,1 difference in damage). Same combo's have been used. However, the BT shield, the spellvamp you get, and the health and movement speed from TF, allow for more survivability, which is also crucial for Akali. Also, 30% lifesteal and 55% spellvamp is no joke. I'm still convinced the lvl11 TF/Gunblade combo is stronger than your lvl 11 LB/Gunblade combo, simply because you do more auto attack damage and you have more survivability. In the end the classic Lich Bane build will two shot a carry at lvl 18, while the TF will kind of do the same, but might need an extra dash and I guess it comes down to preference which you choose. It'd be helpful if you included what you considered full builds, because there's very little I can do to check your work when I'm just guessing. On that point I actually made a mathematical mistake in my calculations. The correct value for TF's damage was 2300.2, significantly closer than I'd indicated. That said I have a few suggestions for things you should be keeping in mind as you evaluate your build. First, remember that your build is more expensive than typical builds. Between TF and BT you're spending 1203g more than an Akali buying LB and Rylai's. Timings are important in LoL, and that much gold is non-trivial. Second, you should ask yourself what building Zhonya's after Trinity Force is doing for you. Are there other items you could be building that have better synergy with your build? WotA? Hydra? Faster BT? Is there something you can alter in your play which makes Zhonya's unnecessary? Third, keep in mind that most games end long before you complete a full build. This relates to my previous point, as each item you build needs to have clear/strong intent as it may be the last item you build in a game. Finally, don't let the idea of the build blind you to the reality of the build. It's very easy to have a novel idea and grow enamored with it. Have other people try your build, especially people who don't necessarily approach Akali the same way you do. You can learn a lot that way. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium5120 Posts
I completely agree with your points by the way. I may have become a bit blinded with trying to have a more hybrid style for her work. It's sad that so little hybrid items exist and ways to go a little bit of both and be as impactful as either full ad or full ap. The initial purpose of the build was to have an insanely strong 2 item timing in which you can splitpush and outmanoeuvre anyone (and it does its job well at that) It does indeed become more problematic once you add more items to the build. It's also the reason I go exhaust instead of ignite or another summoner spel on her. With full builds I include: -For the TF build: Gunblade, TF, Zhonyas, BT, Deathcap, Mpen boots -For the LB build: Gunblade, LB, Zhonyas, Deathcap, Rylais/Ludens, Mpen boots for the most amount of ap with a LB included. Ofcourse Luden's gives that exrta Statikk'esque proc, but that wasn't included. I've also swapped the last item with a Void Staff, but haven't calculated what it does when accounting for 100 mr for example, just straight up damagecalculation from ap scaling. The most interesting thing about Akali is her passive imo. At a few items her basic attacks start doing so much damage and she's a terrific turret taker. Maybe listening to the in game tips and building occult and mejais on her is the actual secret, but is just too troll for anyone to try  | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
Akali's auto-attack damage does scale extremely well, but runs into the problem you described. Hybrid items are rare, and it's unlikely that will change. Back when you could stack Gunblades you could basically hyper-carry in large part because her auto-attacks would do 800 damage and any ability she used healed her for insane amounts. Along that line of thinking I found this hybrid build: http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/how-to-never-lose-as-akali-s5-update-433844 It seems very gimmicky and unrefined, but I think some of what it's trying to do can inform your own build. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium5120 Posts
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EquilasH
Denmark2142 Posts
My final build was usually: mercs, gunblade, wota, atma's, warmog's, spirit visage; with wota being one of the last items. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium5120 Posts
Sheen is now less than ideal (When it wasn't great in the first place. Well, wasn't bad either, but 200 mana is wasted, now you get 50 more mana and no more ap) They upped almost every single ap item in the game. So basically you'd have to go Gunblade -> Zhonya's -> Lich bane -> Deathcap -> Rylais? Or maybe I'll entertain a full ad build now that BTs can stack amounting to a silly lifesteal percentage. Masteries also seem pretty interesting for her, too bad you can't take the hybrid pen AND one of the other pen mastery points.. I guess I'll just wait and see how people prefer her being played. | ||
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