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Pretty low AP ratios, only +1.1 damage without ult and +1.9 with it. Probably not going to go tanky AP with her.
Instead, I think a build that gets 40% CDR+Triforce+Tank would be very successful.
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United States47024 Posts
How about something like:
Philo Stone
Kindlegem
CDR Boots
Eleisa/Shurelya's
Triforce and/or Tank items
Run CDR glyphs and hit 40% CDR after the CDR boots.
Her AP scaling is mediocre, but she gets pretty solid mileage out of CDR.
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My initial impression of her is that she most likely wont be a very strong pick in the current meta. Her kit leads me to believe that she is going to need atleast decent farm to do her job effectively.
The problem with this is that currently, tanks basically have 2 roles, jungle (amumu) or support bot (alistar). The current problem with other tanks like rammus, shen, malphite is that besides being nerfed to hell, none of them can lane for shit. Just looking at her numbers says to me that to play her effectively she is going to command a moderate amount of farm. As she doesn't appear to be sustainable, top is out, her jungling seems possible, leonoa will probably be a bot superstar, that would get shut down by any support/carry lane.
That isnt to say that shes a bad champion, shen/rammus/malphite are all top bans at lower elo because people dont care about lanes and usually the full extent of coordination that goes into laning is the first person to call 'solo'. However, while she might not be a bad champion, she most likely won't be a competitive champion.
BTW this is all pure 100% unadulterated biased speculation
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No natural MRes scaling on a melee? Weird.
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On July 09 2011 16:48 spinesheath wrote:
No natural MRes scaling on a melee? Weird.
I think between her W, glyphs, and merc treads you'll be fine though. :D
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The Role reminds me of Jarvan, just looking to have a jungle role for her :O
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On July 09 2011 15:21 Hakker wrote:
My initial impression of her is that she most likely wont be a very strong pick in the current meta. Her kit leads me to believe that she is going to need atleast decent farm to do her job effectively.
The problem with this is that currently, tanks basically have 2 roles, jungle (amumu) or support bot (alistar). The current problem with other tanks like rammus, shen, malphite is that besides being nerfed to hell, none of them can lane for shit. Just looking at her numbers says to me that to play her effectively she is going to command a moderate amount of farm. As she doesn't appear to be sustainable, top is out, her jungling seems possible, leonoa will probably be a bot superstar, that would get shut down by any support/carry lane.
That isnt to say that shes a bad champion, shen/rammus/malphite are all top bans at lower elo because people dont care about lanes and usually the full extent of coordination that goes into laning is the first person to call 'solo'. However, while she might not be a bad champion, she most likely won't be a competitive champion.
BTW this is all pure 100% unadulterated biased speculation
It is mostly speculation from a horrbile point of view.
You can't lane top without sustain? Jarvan, Rumble, Singed, Gangplank, Akali are all common solo top champs without a lot of "sustain". Philostones/Hextechs and similar stuff fill that gap well enough.
Why would you lane someone "who needs a lot of farm" lane bot ever?
My 2 cents:
Mediocre AP ratios, high base damage, huge utility, melee.
a) Screams tanky AP solo top. Cata/Philostone, RoA, Frozen Heart, FoN, Randuins type of stuff. Similar to Cho/Morgana.
b) Screams Taric #2. She has all an offensive snowball support wants (similar to lux/morgana, just way stronger). Stun, damage, blink, enough tankyness to survive the burst during short but hard bot lane encounters. I see her doing very well with tristana, cait or mf. Actually that's what I'd like to test out first since I smell that being the role she shines at most.
c) Jungle. Her E/W seem like enough to get you through it quickly. Need to see that ingame tho.
PS #1: Is anyone else creeped out by the fact that all her spells start with her name?
PS #2: Riot seems to not learn in champion design. Stuff like Jarvan, reworked GP, Nocturne, Orianna and even Yorick simply has to create balance problems because the huge utility and high base damage makes for incredibly hard to balance scenarios. These kind of things almost always end up insanely op or useless.
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On July 09 2011 19:50 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2011 15:21 Hakker wrote:
My initial impression of her is that she most likely wont be a very strong pick in the current meta. Her kit leads me to believe that she is going to need atleast decent farm to do her job effectively.
The problem with this is that currently, tanks basically have 2 roles, jungle (amumu) or support bot (alistar). The current problem with other tanks like rammus, shen, malphite is that besides being nerfed to hell, none of them can lane for shit. Just looking at her numbers says to me that to play her effectively she is going to command a moderate amount of farm. As she doesn't appear to be sustainable, top is out, her jungling seems possible, leonoa will probably be a bot superstar, that would get shut down by any support/carry lane.
That isnt to say that shes a bad champion, shen/rammus/malphite are all top bans at lower elo because people dont care about lanes and usually the full extent of coordination that goes into laning is the first person to call 'solo'. However, while she might not be a bad champion, she most likely won't be a competitive champion.
BTW this is all pure 100% unadulterated biased speculation
It is mostly speculation from a horrbile point of view. You can't lane top without sustain? Jarvan, Rumble, Singed, Gangplank, Akali are all common solo top champs without a lot of "sustain". Philostones/Hextechs and similar stuff fill that gap well enough. Why would you lane someone "who needs a lot of farm" lane bot ever? My 2 cents: Mediocre AP ratios, high base damage, huge utility, melee. a) Screams tanky AP solo top. Cate/Philostone, RoA, Frozen Heart, FoN, Randuins type of stuff. Similar to Cho/Morgana. b) Screams Taric #2. She has all an offensive snowball support wants (similar to lux/morgana, just way stronger). Stun, damage, blink, enough tankyness to survive the burst during short but hard bot lane encounters. I see her doing very well with tristana, cait or mf. Actually that's what I'd like to test out first since I smell that being the role she shines at most. c) Jungle. Her E/W seem like enough to get you through it quickly. Need to see that ingame tho.
Idk her cooldowns seem too slow for jungling, 14 seconds on W  .. and her passive is useless in the jungle itself, only mediocre for ganks, though she would be one scary ganker with all that cc.
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On July 09 2011 19:53 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2011 19:50 r.Evo wrote:On July 09 2011 15:21 Hakker wrote:
My initial impression of her is that she most likely wont be a very strong pick in the current meta. Her kit leads me to believe that she is going to need atleast decent farm to do her job effectively.
The problem with this is that currently, tanks basically have 2 roles, jungle (amumu) or support bot (alistar). The current problem with other tanks like rammus, shen, malphite is that besides being nerfed to hell, none of them can lane for shit. Just looking at her numbers says to me that to play her effectively she is going to command a moderate amount of farm. As she doesn't appear to be sustainable, top is out, her jungling seems possible, leonoa will probably be a bot superstar, that would get shut down by any support/carry lane.
That isnt to say that shes a bad champion, shen/rammus/malphite are all top bans at lower elo because people dont care about lanes and usually the full extent of coordination that goes into laning is the first person to call 'solo'. However, while she might not be a bad champion, she most likely won't be a competitive champion.
BTW this is all pure 100% unadulterated biased speculation
It is mostly speculation from a horrbile point of view. You can't lane top without sustain? Jarvan, Rumble, Singed, Gangplank, Akali are all common solo top champs without a lot of "sustain". Philostones/Hextechs and similar stuff fill that gap well enough. Why would you lane someone "who needs a lot of farm" lane bot ever? My 2 cents: Mediocre AP ratios, high base damage, huge utility, melee. a) Screams tanky AP solo top. Cate/Philostone, RoA, Frozen Heart, FoN, Randuins type of stuff. Similar to Cho/Morgana. b) Screams Taric #2. She has all an offensive snowball support wants (similar to lux/morgana, just way stronger). Stun, damage, blink, enough tankyness to survive the burst during short but hard bot lane encounters. I see her doing very well with tristana, cait or mf. Actually that's what I'd like to test out first since I smell that being the role she shines at most. c) Jungle. Her E/W seem like enough to get you through it quickly. Need to see that ingame tho. Idk her cooldowns seem too slow for jungling, 14 seconds on W .. and her passive is useless in the jungle itself, only mediocre for ganks, though she would be one scary ganker with all that cc.
Yeah, that's why I think she could be the only all offensive support truely viable. That CC/Passive/Base damage on spells is just sick if your lanepartner can capitalize on it.
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her passive doesn't triggers on her own auto attacks, and them horrid AP ratios on them normal spells :x
will still trying her out, just doesn't feel comfortable playing tanking champs that doesn't goes well with atmogs build 
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Dat skins (Kassa, Noc, Sion)!
I don't know, I think Leona is going to be OP, her utility kit is insane imho. Obviously haven't played her, but her abilities seem to do a lot of damage, despite bad AP ratios.
Gotta see her on the live-servers.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 09 2011 22:36 Avius wrote:
Dat skins (Kassa, Noc, Sion)!
I don't know, I think Leona is going to be OP, her utility kit is insane imho. Obviously haven't played her, but her abilities seem to do a lot of damage, despite bad AP ratios.
Gotta see her on the live-servers.
Her base damage values are all really solid. Scaling be damned, she's going to be a very solid midgame champion, even if she doesn't have a powerhouse lategame.
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I like her concept. she has high cooldwons, low scaling but high basedamage and utility. this forces ppl to build support and tank items on her instead of making her a tanky-dps champion like a lot of you suggest.
on paper i c her laneing with a carry bottom and building up stuff like philo, hog, mercs, aegis, frozen heart etc.
basicly a good mix of support and tank stuff with gold/time so she can focus on her role as much as possible.
I really dont see the reason forcing her into tanky dps with those terrible ratios. ppl who are bad at math will say they are ok/mediocre but they are really not because of the high cooldowns.
and i also do not like the "she needs a lot of farm" statement. A champion with buffs, debuffs and disables obviously does NOT need alot of farm. ofc if you wanna carry with a support tank then thats your problem.
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She seems like a really strong teleport ganker. Gap closer, stun, AoE stun/slow, her passive, etcetc. I still don't think she's a better solo top than irelia/jarvan, but maybe she will be great in AoE comps or something. Do you guys think she would be a viable roamer?
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Definitely going to build a Sheen on her the first time I try her out, and I agree with most of you, it looks like she needs lots of CDR to be viable. Her ult at rank 3 is only 75 seconds base cooldown so we'll be able to use it like candy, assuming mana isn't an issue at that stage of the game, and it has an 80% slow or stun. I wonder how slow they'd be with Rylai's, lol.
I think for skills I'm going to go R > Q > W > E, with 1 point in E early. Q for shorter cooldown on my stun and then W to be prepared when team fights start.
I think I'll probably take MPen reds, armor yellows, MResist/lvl blues, and health quints. Don't know if ArPen reds would be better though, for last hitting if I'm solo top.
As for items, I'm going to try:
Regrowth Pendant -> Philo Stone + Boots -> Sheen -> Catalyst -> Merc Treads -> Triforce -> Defensive. Might skip the Sheen, but it's one of my favorite items, so I have to try it!
Depending on the range and width of her E, I can see her being a good ganker. Level 6, all you need to do is W -> hit E's skillshot -> Q -> wait for stun to be close to ending -> R stun. She probably need help though. Her base damage seems a little low. Anyone else think this too?
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what if you build her as a support? She seems to have terrible scaling, but amazing utiltiy with all her stuns and such. True Taric imo...
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I think I might play her as a babysitter tank in team fights, like playing Udyr.
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On July 10 2011 01:58 c.Deadly wrote:
She seems like a really strong teleport ganker. Gap closer, stun, AoE stun/slow, her passive, etcetc. I still don't think she's a better solo top than irelia/jarvan, but maybe she will be great in AoE comps or something. Do you guys think she would be a viable roamer?
If you use the passive properly, her damage potential with an ally teammate should become way powerful.
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On July 10 2011 05:15 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2011 01:58 c.Deadly wrote:
She seems like a really strong teleport ganker. Gap closer, stun, AoE stun/slow, her passive, etcetc. I still don't think she's a better solo top than irelia/jarvan, but maybe she will be great in AoE comps or something. Do you guys think she would be a viable roamer? If you use the passive properly, her damage potential with an ally teammate should become way powerful.
The scaling on her passive looks really good. 140x4 damage at lv 18 looks really strong to me. Also anyone knows her price? I can see her in the champions tab but she's not in the store
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On July 10 2011 05:21 r33k wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2011 05:15 Juicyfruit wrote:On July 10 2011 01:58 c.Deadly wrote:
She seems like a really strong teleport ganker. Gap closer, stun, AoE stun/slow, her passive, etcetc. I still don't think she's a better solo top than irelia/jarvan, but maybe she will be great in AoE comps or something. Do you guys think she would be a viable roamer? If you use the passive properly, her damage potential with an ally teammate should become way powerful. The scaling on her passive looks really good. 140x4 damage at lv 18 looks really strong to me. Also anyone knows her price? I can see her in the champions tab but she's not in the store
they consume the debuff, so it only triggers for the first ally damage
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Yeah but every skill puts it back on right? As far as I see it it's going to be like lux's passive only anyone can trigger it.
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i think shed be good with 2x phantom dancer
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On July 10 2011 07:34 r33k wrote:
Yeah but every skill puts it back on right? As far as I see it it's going to be like lux's passive only anyone can trigger it.
I think so, I wonder if her 3 aoe spells put the debuff on all targets dealt damage too, cause that would be pretty sweet for team fights.
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On July 10 2011 07:56 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2011 07:34 r33k wrote:
Yeah but every skill puts it back on right? As far as I see it it's going to be like lux's passive only anyone can trigger it. I think so, I wonder if her 3 aoe spells put the debuff on all targets dealt damage too, cause that would be pretty sweet for team fights.
They do its in the spotlight. That's why she's awesome. Think about initiating with her and having annie or brand on your team.
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if leona can jungle she's gonna be a top pick
too much CC
she's like shen + sion + annie
if she can't jungle she might be decent top but i can't really see putting her bottom tbh
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On July 11 2011 02:34 gtrsrs wrote:
if leona can jungle she's gonna be a top pick
too much CC
she's like shen + sion + annie
if she can't jungle she might be decent top but i can't really see putting her bottom tbh
She doesnt have that much CC. Also note that all her CC only lasts 1.5 seconds, and the stun range on her ult is pretty small.
But yea, she could be a good ganker with red and if you hit them with your E.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 11 2011 02:34 gtrsrs wrote:
if leona can jungle she's gonna be a top pick
too much CC
she's like shen + sion + annie
if she can't jungle she might be decent top but i can't really see putting her bottom tbh
I can't see her being that great of a jungler. She has no natural sustain, and none of her skills stick out as great in the jungle.
Compare her to jungle Jarvan--she has no % current HP proc, no aspd steroid, lower base damage on her nukes, and longer cooldowns. She'll have a comparable gank, but significantly worse speed--and Jarvan's jungle is already on the slow side.
On top of that, itemizing her in the jungle would be awkward. She doesn't have a kit like Amumu's or Nunu's that clearly doesn't need Wriggles to jungle, and at the same time, Wriggles is an awkward item for her to get because she has no AD-based scaling.
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Stop this nonsense. You have not even played the champion yet. 2 months down the line you will most likely have forgotten this thread.
Its pretty though.
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On July 11 2011 05:18 Ordained wrote:
Stop this nonsense. You have not even played the champion yet. 2 months down the line you will most likely have forgotten this thread.
Its pretty though.
:D Remember the StarCraft II theorycrafting?
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On July 11 2011 02:34 gtrsrs wrote:
if leona can jungle she's gonna be a top pick
too much CC
she's like shen + sion + annie
if she can't jungle she might be decent top but i can't really see putting her bottom tbh
high base damage and low scaling, plus a passive that directly benefits from having a lane partner, why don't you think she should be in bottom lane
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On July 11 2011 06:11 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 02:34 gtrsrs wrote:
if leona can jungle she's gonna be a top pick
too much CC
she's like shen + sion + annie
if she can't jungle she might be decent top but i can't really see putting her bottom tbh high base damage and low scaling, plus a passive that directly benefits from having a lane partner, why don't you think she should be in bottom lane
She definitely should not play the support role though.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
i don't think it's entirely necessary for bot lane to only give farm to one person
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I feel like she could be kind of like Alistar where she could be a little bit of both, lot's of CC, hopefully inherent tankiness. Like i said I have no idea how good her solo lane/jungle will be, but I could see her being good on a team without farm(just with her CC, passive, base damage), and i could see her being good on a team with farm, tri force into tanky dps. Like ALI can play a few different roles. Idk though.
Also, theorycrafting is fun!
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On July 11 2011 06:31 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
i don't think it's entirely necessary for bot lane to only give farm to one person
I agree, actually. Still doesn't change my opinion that Leona shouln't assume the role of a support.
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Too bad Leona is now postponed..
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On July 11 2011 07:31 Spacely wrote:
Too bad Leona is now postponed..
source?
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I find myself wondering if item actives (Gunblade etc.) proc her passive? I'm not sure it would result in any real build viability, but it's an interesting question.
I've been looking at her versus Amumu a lot as well, since they have some very similar skillsets. She of course wont have the team stun ability, but her CD's seem much lower, and her base stats seem better too. Better health, mana, hp regen and mana regen, both base and per level. The only areas (other than AD or AS) she's worse in are armor scaling, and even has higher base armor.
I would also like to see her jungle abilities. With eclipse she's at 51 armor and 60 MR. Add cloth armor and she'll get up to 68 armor 60 MR.
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On July 11 2011 05:51 Shiragaku wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 05:18 Ordained wrote:
Stop this nonsense. You have not even played the champion yet. 2 months down the line you will most likely have forgotten this thread.
Its pretty though. :D Remember the StarCraft II theorycrafting?
Made me sad to be a Zerg player and bundled wit the whiners who didn't even play with the patch yet.
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On July 11 2011 06:11 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 02:34 gtrsrs wrote:
if leona can jungle she's gonna be a top pick
too much CC
she's like shen + sion + annie
if she can't jungle she might be decent top but i can't really see putting her bottom tbh high base damage and low scaling, plus a passive that directly benefits from having a lane partner, why don't you think she should be in bottom lane
melee champs without sustainability (i.e. not alistar, taric) get punished really hard bottom lane. especially when all her spells force her to get up close and personal, i just don't see it working out. same reason you don't see trundle or udyr bottom lane and nasus prefers to go top or mid. i think her passive will be largely irrelevant - her skillset is so strong as is that they had to give her a dud passive. if it turns out to be great in teamfights then more power to her, but it's not a laning passive for sure. although tbh it might be icing on the cake for ganks, just enough to give her the extra umph for the kill
she's going to have to do her job with minimal farm, and the best place to get minimal farm, high levels, and low danger, is the jungle. if she can't jungle and isn't a dominant laner, then expect her to see the same kind of usage that renekton, nasus, jax, etc get - i.e. not very high
if she CAN jungle, then expect her to be played like jungle jarvan - oracle carrier and CC-bot with innate tankiness. she'll grab HoG and philo, then try to earn her income off wards and spend most of her time blowing opponents' summoners without actually getting kills. then when teamfights come around, her triple CC will devastate and her utility will skyrocket - if not necessarily her damage
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this biatch + garen at bot is gonna crush faces
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Anyone with a stun + garen crushes bit lane. I think it's more garen than his partner usually though
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On July 11 2011 17:19 gtrsrs wrote:
Anyone with a stun + garen crushes bit lane. I think it's more garen than his partner usually though
taric is the best with garen atm(due to stun duration + - armor and damage from shatter)
BUT skill shot gap closer with stun is probably gonna wreck faces even more so
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And her passive- increased damage.
Tank. Right. Tank.
-_-
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Sigh all these delays make me so sad. I'm even trying not to tank so I can grind out games with her, lol.
I don't think she will make a good jungle either. I'm not even sure how I want to play her yet, really, save the obvious.
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oh, a TANK with less than 2K HP and non-scaling MRes (30 @ 18), zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
u fucking serious riot? I'm not gonna pretend that characters can't be viable with those base stats, but it seems pretty asinine to me that they would make a big deal about a female tank and then produce said tank with less tanky base stats than Irelia.
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Lack of MR scaling doesn't bother me, but I tend to be a douchenoggle so I'd see myself rushing Abyssal on her anyways.
The HP gain sucks though, but IIRC Rammus has terrible HP gain too so it's not really THAT out of the ordinary?
Edit:
Yea Leona hits like 2083, Rammus tops out at like 1950.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 11 2011 17:19 gtrsrs wrote:
Anyone with a stun + garen crushes bit lane. I think it's more garen than his partner usually though
With Leona specifically, it's that Judgment ticks willl chain-proc Leona's passive while she spams her combo onto their target.
No need to wait for your ally to proc the passive when SPINSPINSPIN hits them every half second.
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On July 12 2011 00:52 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 17:19 gtrsrs wrote:
Anyone with a stun + garen crushes bit lane. I think it's more garen than his partner usually though With Leona specifically, it's that Judgment ticks willl chain-proc Leona's passive while she spams her combo onto their target. No need to wait for your ally to proc the passive when SPINSPINSPIN hits them every half second.
wait what? i must have missed something. allied skills proc sunlight? not just auto attacks? is that how lux's passive is too? i just figured sunlight would be auto attacks. okay then yeah garen is going to be extremely strong with leona. my mistake :x
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United States47024 Posts
On July 12 2011 01:30 gtrsrs wrote:
wait what? i must have missed something. allied skills proc sunlight? not just auto attacks? is that how lux's passive is too? i just figured sunlight would be auto attacks. okay then yeah garen is going to be extremely strong with leona. my mistake :x
Watch the spotlight again. Amumu procs Sunlight on 3 people at once with Tantrum.
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I wonder if allied sunfire capes also procs the passive
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On July 12 2011 01:47 Juicyfruit wrote:
I wonder if allied sunfire capes also procs the passive
that would be fairly lolzy, but I wouldn't be surprised if stupid shit like that and each tick of DoTs would work that way. I also wouldn't be surprised if that was the "bug" that is keeping them from releasing her.
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On July 11 2011 23:39 Southlight wrote:
Lack of MR scaling doesn't bother me, but I tend to be a douchenoggle so I'd see myself rushing Abyssal on her anyways.
The HP gain sucks though, but IIRC Rammus has terrible HP gain too so it's not really THAT out of the ordinary?
Edit:
Yea Leona hits like 2083, Rammus tops out at like 1950.
Yeah that's because she has an active skill that gives her a metric fuckton of amror and mres so you only need to build a little hp to be jarvan
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So does Rammus. Also I'm agreeing with you here by the way. It sucks but I'm not particularly surprised.
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On July 12 2011 02:05 Phrost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 23:39 Southlight wrote:
Lack of MR scaling doesn't bother me, but I tend to be a douchenoggle so I'd see myself rushing Abyssal on her anyways.
The HP gain sucks though, but IIRC Rammus has terrible HP gain too so it's not really THAT out of the ordinary?
Edit:
Yea Leona hits like 2083, Rammus tops out at like 1950. Yeah that's because she has an active skill that gives her a metric fuckton of amror and mres so you only need to build a little hp to be jarvan
Essentially, but none of her skills really seem to stand out in the jungle. I'm assuming you would go W first for the armor/damage, then Q for the bonus damage, but the CD on her skills will slow down her jungle time pretty bad.
I'm probably going to build her similar to my jungle jarvan, assuming it's possible to take blue first with her since her mana costs look high.
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On July 12 2011 02:09 Southlight wrote:
So does Rammus. Also I'm agreeing with you here by the way. It sucks but I'm not particularly surprised.
I know, i was just reiterating before people started posting and asking why it's so low.
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well, nm, I thought more characters had scaling mres. rammus not having scaling mres is also blowing my mind. other tanks who don't have it are nunu, cho, galio, and maokai, but they're all hybrid-mages, so I always kinda just got over it, but since rammus also doesn't have mres scaling I'm over it for Leona as well, but I still find their rules for that shit absolutely baffling.
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"leona is a pure tank who specializes in taking out enemies quickly"
ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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On July 12 2011 02:44 Mogwai wrote:
well, nm, I thought more characters had scaling mres. rammus not having scaling mres is also blowing my mind. other tanks who don't have it are nunu, cho, galio, and maokai, but they're all hybrid-mages, so I always kinda just got over it, but since rammus also doesn't have mres scaling I'm over it for Leona as well, but I still find their rules for that shit absolutely baffling.
The scaling mres was introduced fairly early in beta on non-tank melee dps characters. It seems to have accidently (and erratically) flowed out onto some tanky "dps" characters like nasus, irelia, warwick, etc
Most "tanks" don't have it.
Alistar, Singed, amumu, gragas, taric, shen, sion, and poppy also dont have scaling mr/level.
I'm pretty sure anything that was not designed as a melee physical dps does not have the mres/level (so all the melee mages like nunu, galio, sion, gragas dont get it).
Oddly enough, Malphite actually does have it even though he is more or less the least physical dps of almost any melee champion.
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yea, like, malphite and singed have it, as do garen and jarman and I'm just really seeing the lines blurring way too much here between what's a tank and what's a tanky dps or whatever.
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On July 12 2011 02:59 Mogwai wrote:
yea, like, malphite and singed have it, as do garen and jarman and I'm just really seeing the lines blurring way too much here between what's a tank and what's a tanky dps or whatever.
I thought singed doesn't have it...
I think any melee with heavy atk damage scaling spells get it because they usually require you to get close and attack people.
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hmm, apparently he doesn't. well, w/e, Leona looks like she's supposed to dive in their with her shit (melee stun, dash, and AoE shield blow up) and I figured she was akin to Jarman in this sense and thus would get it, but I guess she's not worthy.
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On July 12 2011 03:04 Mogwai wrote:
hmm, apparently he doesn't. well, w/e, Leona looks like she's supposed to dive in their with her shit (melee stun, dash, and AoE shield blow up) and I figured she was akin to Jarman in this sense and thus would get it, but I guess she's not worthy.
I said i'm pretty sure its because she has entirely AP scaling and none of the melee characters with heavy ap scaling gained the MR/level
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wait, even her Q scales on AP? dafuck? ok then... so we have basically entirely melee with AP scaling on a tank... gl with that shit, can't imagine she'll be able to build AP at all since it looks like her returns from it won't be able to compensate for the fact that she'll just explode (as opposed to you know... every other tank who scales with AP and then has long range pokes.)
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On July 12 2011 03:12 Mogwai wrote:
wait, even her Q scales on AP? dafuck? ok then... so we have basically entirely melee with AP scaling on a tank... gl with that shit, can't imagine she'll be able to build AP at all since it looks like her returns from it won't be able to compensate for the fact that she'll just explode (as opposed to you know... every other tank who scales with AP and then has long range pokes.)
She gets like 70 armor and mr for free. Slap a rylais on her, maybe abyssal, profit.
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On July 12 2011 03:12 Mogwai wrote:
wait, even her Q scales on AP? dafuck? ok then... so we have basically entirely melee with AP scaling on a tank... gl with that shit, can't imagine she'll be able to build AP at all since it looks like her returns from it won't be able to compensate for the fact that she'll just explode (as opposed to you know... every other tank who scales with AP and then has long range pokes.)
Her ap scaling isnt terrible for a team fight, she has 2 aoe skills with 0.4 ratio, her ult is 0.8, and her Q is 0.3
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On July 12 2011 03:12 Mogwai wrote:
wait, even her Q scales on AP? dafuck? ok then... so we have basically entirely melee with AP scaling on a tank... gl with that shit, can't imagine she'll be able to build AP at all since it looks like her returns from it won't be able to compensate for the fact that she'll just explode (as opposed to you know... every other tank who scales with AP and then has long range pokes.)
She has mini-defensive ball curl, so I'd basically just run her the same way I run Amumu, armor runes, rush Abyssal, profit.
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On July 12 2011 03:27 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 03:12 Mogwai wrote:
wait, even her Q scales on AP? dafuck? ok then... so we have basically entirely melee with AP scaling on a tank... gl with that shit, can't imagine she'll be able to build AP at all since it looks like her returns from it won't be able to compensate for the fact that she'll just explode (as opposed to you know... every other tank who scales with AP and then has long range pokes.) She gets like 70 armor and mr for free. Slap a rylais on her, maybe abyssal, profit.
I'm not sure rylai is what you're looking for considering the majority of her spells comes with cc to begin with, so rylai isn't even doing anything.
CDR-tank build seems to make the most sense to me
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I just want that giants belt yo~
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United States47024 Posts
I think it's a shame that neither of the two Kindlegem build paths are really good for her, seeing as the stats on Kindlegem are exactly what she wants.
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Nah, shurelias is going to be awesome on her
Can't believe more people dont buy that item it's fucking insane
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Shurelias speed boost -> jump to enemy -> stun to initiate would be a great way to initiate a fight. Similar to amumu doing it with bandage toss, but more reliable.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 12 2011 03:52 gtrsrs wrote:
Nah, shurelias is going to be awesome on her
Can't believe more people dont buy that item it's fucking insane
Why do I always forget that Kindlegem builds to Shurelya's now? Always remember Visage/Shroud but forget about Shurelya's.
And yeah, I agree. Especially since her mana costs and lack of natural HP sustain makes Philo something she'd want to buy for laning.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
damnit, get into the store Leona!
buying this champ as soon as she's available, i will become the master
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shurelias is the most underrated item in the game, it's good on every single non-carry champ, be it a tank, jungler, or support. i even get it on some carries situationally. it's really really really fking strong on champs that scale well off HP (trundle, mumu, rammus, malphite, jarvan), and it's got a game-changing active that's available like every 45 seconds. stupid strong, i get it on tons of champs, i can't believe it hasn't caught on yet. and yeah with leona's W it's going to give her a ton of sustainability and the active is perfect for engaging with her ult to ensure her teammates can catch up to proc her passive
On July 12 2011 07:48 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
buying this champ as soon as she's available, i will become the master
i will beat you to it, steve!
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Very disappointed by her low ratios, smells like Yorick on release (underpowered as shit).
Also, her base hp at 18 is pretty low for a tank too :/
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On July 13 2011 10:23 KinosJourney2 wrote:
Very disappointed by her low ratios, smells like Yorick on release (underpowered as shit).
Also, her base hp at 18 is pretty low for a tank too :/
I dont get it how ppl still talk about her scalings and try to measure her from that point of view.
her scalings are bad.
she provides a shitton of utility/tankiness and nonscaling damage through her passive. you wont carry shit with her and thats 100% fine. there are only a few support tanks so far so she is a very nice addition overall.
I can imagine that she will be picked bottom with a carry to shut down the other lane (instead of just sustaining the own) just like you would with taric/alistar but with more umph and less sustain. the trick would be to get sth like mf/vayne with her or any carry that can provide good early game dps.
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On July 13 2011 19:38 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 10:23 KinosJourney2 wrote:
Very disappointed by her low ratios, smells like Yorick on release (underpowered as shit).
Also, her base hp at 18 is pretty low for a tank too :/ I dont get it how ppl still talk about her scalings and try to measure her from that point of view. her scalings are bad. she provides a shitton of utility/tankiness and nonscaling damage through her passive. you wont carry shit with her and thats 100% fine. there are only a few support tanks so far so she is a very nice addition overall. I can imagine that she will be picked bottom with a carry to shut down the other lane (instead of just sustaining the own) just like you would with taric/alistar but with more umph and less sustain. the trick would be to get sth like mf/vayne with her or any carry that can provide good early game dps.
A low cooldown stun doesn't really seem to be worth much compared to a low cooldown knock-up like Blitz has. The knockup is unaffected by tenacity.
Utility just doesn't win games. If that was the case then everyone would be running Blitz in every game. Knock-up, stun/grab, AoE silence?
Compared to Blitz her single stun seems like a bit of a joke.
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If utility doesnt win games why is janna the best support in the game?
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On July 13 2011 23:32 Two_DoWn wrote:
If utility doesnt win games why is janna the best support in the game?
Knockback, shield, knock up, slow and a heal.
That is not only a lot more then what she provides with a single stun, it also suits the desired role for a support bot perfectly.
People want support to babysit the bottom lane. The more defensive utility is best for that. In that regard what Blitz provides in terms of utility is a little too agressive with the pull.
But what could Leona possibly add to a solo bot lane with just a stun? That is all her utility wich makes her slightly less usefull then every champion with a ranged stun. It's like saying Sion has a ton of utility.
She just doesn't seem like a solid choice for anything tbh. Her utility is nothing to write home about. The only thing she brings to the table is a "low cooldown" stun but the clip shows it having 5+ seconds of CD wich makes it about the time of a blitz knock up and less usefull when tenacity is taken into account.
All of her other skills are pretty self centered. A shield, a gap closer, a ranged stun. Maybe her stats will prove to be great but just going off what we have seen and been told i don't see any reason to consider her to be a utility powerhouse.
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Man all y'all people complaining about AP scaling on a freaking TANK need to get a grip.
Edit:
Also I know this is earth-shattering and shocking but AD+support gets countered by ranged stun + nuke, ie. Taric/Annie or Taric/Brand or in Shake's case Taric/Ezreal. Taric/Cow+Garen is still a ridic lane, as is something like Blitz/Cow and Blitz/Garen. You can even do something hilarious like Jarvan Annie and roll people. What does this mean? Leona's a pretty nasty bottom lane with the right combo.
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On July 13 2011 23:51 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 23:32 Two_DoWn wrote:
If utility doesnt win games why is janna the best support in the game? Knockback, shield, knock up, slow and a heal. That is not only a lot more then what she provides with a single stun, it also suits the desired role for a support bot perfectly. People want support to babysit the bottom lane. The more defensive utility is best for that. In that regard what Blitz provides in terms of utility is a little too agressive with the pull. But what could Leona possibly add to a solo bot lane with just a stun? That is all her utility wich makes her slightly less usefull then every champion with a ranged stun. It's like saying Sion has a ton of utility. She just doesn't seem like a solid choice for anything tbh. Her utility is nothing to write home about. The only thing she brings to the table is a "low cooldown" stun but the clip shows it having 5+ seconds of CD wich makes it about the time of a blitz knock up and less usefull when tenacity is taken into account. All of her other skills are pretty self centered. A shield, a gap closer, a ranged stun. Maybe her stats will prove to be great but just going off what we have seen and been told i don't see any reason to consider her to be a utility powerhouse.
1) Her passive applies a damage boost for an the next allied hit. This means that she will be able to harass like a boss- gap close (auto) stun (auto) and deal a lot of damage.
2) People tend to get bogged down in metagames. There is nothing that says an ad carry needs to be bot. Run corki or ashe mid. Run leona bot with garen, cho, brand or another caster. Carry+support gets ROCKED by caster+anyone or 2 tanky dps with gap closers and a stun.
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On July 10 2011 02:23 Javadocs wrote:
Definitely going to build a Sheen on her the first time I try her out, and I agree with most of you, it looks like she needs lots of CDR to be viable. Her ult at rank 3 is only 75 seconds base cooldown so we'll be able to use it like candy, assuming mana isn't an issue at that stage of the game, and it has an 80% slow or stun. I wonder how slow they'd be with Rylai's, lol.
I think for skills I'm going to go R > Q > W > E, with 1 point in E early. Q for shorter cooldown on my stun and then W to be prepared when team fights start.
I think I'll probably take MPen reds, armor yellows, MResist/lvl blues, and health quints. Don't know if ArPen reds would be better though, for last hitting if I'm solo top.
As for items, I'm going to try:
Regrowth Pendant -> Philo Stone + Boots -> Sheen -> Catalyst -> Merc Treads -> Triforce -> Defensive. Might skip the Sheen, but it's one of my favorite items, so I have to try it!
Depending on the range and width of her E, I can see her being a good ganker. Level 6, all you need to do is W -> hit E's skillshot -> Q -> wait for stun to be close to ending -> R stun. She probably need help though. Her base damage seems a little low. Anyone else think this too?
Actually, with a Rylais they'd only be slowed an additional 3%.
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Janna is on the lower end of supports currently.
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On July 14 2011 02:40 0123456789 wrote:
Janna is on the lower end of supports currently.
Whaaaaaaaat that makes no sense.
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she can't babysit as well as the others due to lack of a heal, but she has better CC and damage output (which is why I like her with Pantheon since she can pull her weight for harassing. Bot lane is really fascinating to me right now, tbh. How Taric/Sona/Soraka/Janna + random other guy match up is really really interesting.
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On July 14 2011 02:41 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 02:40 0123456789 wrote:
Janna is on the lower end of supports currently. Whaaaaaaaat that makes no sense.
Janna has no heal. Makes her laning really bad. You can abuse it by harassing and taking worst exchanges, and coming out better.
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It just changes the way you play. Plus she has free ad. Play more farmcentric rather than aggressive.
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On July 14 2011 02:46 0123456789 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 02:41 Southlight wrote:On July 14 2011 02:40 0123456789 wrote:
Janna is on the lower end of supports currently. Whaaaaaaaat that makes no sense. Janna has no heal. Makes her laning really bad. You can abuse it by harassing and taking worst exchanges, and coming out better.
Janna can play more aggressive with W than the other supports, it just depends on the lane matchup. Plus lanes with Janna are most difficult to gank. I do not consider any of the triumvirate (Sona Sora Janna) having any sort of superiority over each other at the moment, as they have advantages and disadvantages and bad matchups and whatnot. Yeah an attrition war between a Janna lane and Soraka lane isn't going to be pretty.
Taric's nice for solo q because he damages duo-lane coordination with the ranged stun but I maintain that as a support hero he's probably the worst and by a far margin, with the exception of Cait trap shenanigans :x
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On July 14 2011 02:47 Two_DoWn wrote:
It just changes the way you play. Plus she has free ad. Play more farmcentric rather than aggressive.
You play "farmcentric", give up lane control, then get raped. By raped I mean you're going to lose in cs 100%, unless your opponents are inexperienced. If they are, you can get by with just farmcentric play.
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On July 14 2011 02:50 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 02:46 0123456789 wrote:On July 14 2011 02:41 Southlight wrote:On July 14 2011 02:40 0123456789 wrote:
Janna is on the lower end of supports currently. Whaaaaaaaat that makes no sense. Janna has no heal. Makes her laning really bad. You can abuse it by harassing and taking worst exchanges, and coming out better. Janna can play more aggressive with W than the other supports, it just depends on the lane matchup. Plus lanes with Janna are most difficult to gank. I do not consider any of the triumvirate (Sona Sora Janna) having any sort of superiority over each other at the moment, as they have advantages and disadvantages and bad matchups and whatnot. Yeah an attrition war between a Janna lane and Soraka lane isn't going to be pretty. Taric's nice for solo q because he damages duo-lane coordination with the ranged stun but I maintain that as a support hero he's probably the worst and by a far margin, with the exception of Cait trap shenanigans :x
You go into w range, take a stun or dmg, and then can't heal it back. Janna lanes are more efficient with champions that have sustains, she's not used too well currently. In the standard ad/support vs ad/support, you're going to get raped playing janna.
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I think farmcentric is exactly how you're not supposed to play janna in modern bot lane. The nature of Shield vs. Heal is that you can only keep up if you force exchanges on every shield CD so that you can get the same mileage out of your shield that they get out of their heal.
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Good thing ranged AD with support have stuns, with the exception of Vayne, who's really squishy and proper coordination with lane partner ensures that she'll take punishment from your ranged AD if she attacks you.
Also it's why I run armor page on support. I can't tell you if that's what's causing me to win every lane with support heroes regardless of matchup etc.
I also open Charm + 6 pots + ward, if you play a lane that allows you to max out W you'll win lane almost always, with the possible exception of Soraka (that one really depends on the lane partner and how well they can sustain damage, but that's always the case against Soraka lanes regardless of what support hero you take).
Edit:
On July 14 2011 02:57 Mogwai wrote:
I think farmcentric is exactly how you're not supposed to play janna in modern bot lane. The nature of Shield vs. Heal is that you can only keep up if you force exchanges on every shield CD so that you can get the same mileage out of your shield that they get out of their heal.
More or less. It's why when I Janna I favor W'ing them to cut them down, and if the AD starts taking creep hits or looks like they'll get hit I shield them, as a coordinated attack. Engage on your terms to maximize shield effectiveness, whether it's blocking creep hits (worth it) or opponent retaliation.
People just lock into this mindset that all supports play the same, and work well in all matchups, but that's not true. With the possible exception of Soraka.
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honestly you win bot lane every time because we play with IRL friends who aren't at your level so you're pretty much constantly playing vs. lesser opposition. This isn't to say that you're necessarily wrong, but it does take some weight away from that argument.
also, this is why creating champion threads before the champ is out is stupid. might as well call this the bot lane discussion thread, zzzz.
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On July 14 2011 03:00 Mogwai wrote:
honestly you win bot lane every time because we play with IRL friends who aren't at your level so you're pretty much constantly playing vs. lesser opposition. This isn't to say that you're necessarily wrong, but it does take some weight away from that argument.
also, this is why creating champion threads before the champ is out is stupid. might as well call this the bot lane discussion thread, zzzz.
I'm winning bot lanes in solo queue too....................
........ but then again I'm still under where I probably should be so that argument dies. Mweh.
My point was more mathematically, Janna vs Sona for instance, Sona flat-out does less damage to Janna with my runeset than I do back, if she doesn't have the same type of runes. This forces Sona to be less effective, as I can prevent her from double Q, and drain mana on heals, which is not mana efficient. Boom, lane won, pending AD matchup. And that's not an area I can control.
Edit:
By the way I'm operating under the assumption that the armor runeset hasn't caught on with supports, which as far as I know is still true, with the possible exception of Taric (mainly because it was popularized on him in the first place >_o). Haven't really seen any of the top support players run that sort of set yet.
Edit2:
My point in the above is that if you play the matchup right you shouldn't really lose a lane unless the AD matchup (as an example) is really bad, in which case yeah you're in trouble. But you'll have a similar issue with like Soraka Ashe vs Ezreal Janna, as an example, because they'll literally just level 2 you despite having supposedly an inferior lane. Mweh. It just boggles my mind that people can consider Janna "the worst" support; she definitely excels in a lot of matchups, just not as flexible as Sora.
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6 pots, all armour, might be enough to mitigate heals for the early phase.
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Sorry for Janna fanboying in an unreleased hero thread :p
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On July 14 2011 02:58 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 02:57 Mogwai wrote:
I think farmcentric is exactly how you're not supposed to play janna in modern bot lane. The nature of Shield vs. Heal is that you can only keep up if you force exchanges on every shield CD so that you can get the same mileage out of your shield that they get out of their heal. More or less. It's why when I Janna I favor W'ing them to cut them down, and if the AD starts taking creep hits or looks like they'll get hit I shield them, as a coordinated attack. Engage on your terms to maximize shield effectiveness, whether it's blocking creep hits (worth it) or opponent retaliation. People just lock into this mindset that all supports play the same, and work well in all matchups, but that's not true. With the possible exception of Soraka.
This is more what I meant. In my opinion if you dont have a heal, you need to focus more on farming and then picking your spots to attack since if you take a bad exchange you WILL lose the lane. So in my head farmcentric means getting last hits, controlling the lane well, and making sure to only exchange when you know you can take very little damage.
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Eh, what I was getting at is that you go on the offensive before they do. You need to be able to direct where their damage goes and shield, unless you have godly reflexes and can always shield to mitigate damage. Shield is only effective if enough damage is exchanged on top of it that it gets popped. It's why I invest in potions and defensive masteries, so that I can constantly go on the offensive (drain their sustain) and then pop shields on my AD to hit them harder + reduce aggro damage, that sort of thing. I find Janna to be a GOGOGO KILL THEM support, where you win lane in the first few levels and lock them down thereafter.
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na trick, just lane with pantheon and fuckstart their faces. exchange always!
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She's hilarious with Ezreal and Trist as well, because their early-game is so ridiculous that you can see like a Trist jump + explosive + W + shield and their healer is pretty boned without a Flash, takes a while for them to catch up and they have to play so safe.
Ezreal underrated bot laner imoimo :3
Wow tangents. Poor Leona. Actually not, 'cause she ain't released yet, and who made this thread anyways.
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I don't like these discussions because the people participating think that they are the ones going to be agressive, and that the other bot lane will just let them push the lane against them, and take it up the ass. No jungle involved either, or the creep wave.
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Nope, just simple level 2 numbers. Soraka level 2 isn't very effective (primarily only has a long cd heal, though it gives armor), same goes for Sona especially if you focus-fire one person. Janna's got the strongest level 2 via having a nuke/snare as well as a shield. I've been saying that she NEEDS to go on the offensive. Somewhat different from the other supports who can ride the AD matchup (ie. Trist vs Ashe) and back up the AD but otherwise don't really contribute as much.
Edit:
You can say something similar with Sona. If you're relegated to heal duty as Sona, especially if the opponent is focus firing, she's really, really bad. Her heal vs mana cost efficiency is horrible, and you're essentially guaranteed to be on the back foot/losing lane if it comes down to that. Fortunately she has a measure of flexibility but yeah.
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On July 14 2011 03:22 Southlight wrote:
Nope, just simple level 2 numbers. Soraka level 2 isn't very effective (primarily only has a long cd heal, though it gives armor), same goes for Sona especially if you focus-fire one person. Janna's got the strongest level 2 via having a nuke/snare as well as a shield. I've been saying that she NEEDS to go on the offensive. Somewhat different from the other supports who can ride the AD matchup (ie. Trist vs Ashe) and back up the AD but otherwise don't really contribute as much.
Let's say that ashe ff'd and killed a creep faster than you with his crit, and then dmged 5 creeps with volley and has a stronger push vs you. Now you're trying to auto attack the wave, and ashe is trying to equalize the wave. Lvl 2 comes, are you going to try to dive a lot of creeps to try to deal dmg to ashe soraka? If you don't kill, soraka can heal it up pretty well.
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Depends on who your AD is. Ezreal can, yes. Trist maybe maybe not, though Trist would fairly happily welcome level 3/4 before engaging. If they're clearly going for the level 2 ding and pushing it fast there's no point in playing the attrition game until creep stabilizes, to be honest? Don't take damage and reset for equalized levels, then gun after them.
I tend to see a zone attempt if they try to push the creep like that at level 2 with that sort of matchup though, especially with Ezreal. Or they can sit in the creep to avoid zone/skillshot but then they're the ones fucked if there's a damage exchange.
Edit:
Sorry, zone attempt because Ashe volley + crit is on CD so Ez can feel free to wrap around and go for skillshots. Soraka heal CD is also low enough that you can press them back.
For example let's say you do that, but Janna snares the Ashe, and the Ezreal walks around to line up skillshots, where's Ashe going to go? She can either run into the creep to ding level 2 faster and try to block Q, but that means if there's an auto exchange she'll tank the creep faster. If she tries to dodge she's a bit snared. Or if she runs backward then she's getting zoned. Also Ashe level 2 doesn't really help. You can do some further shenanigans as Janna by attacking the Ashe and pulling the creep to you (with armor runes and pots ezpz) and so the Ezreal is no longer in danger of tanking creep while Ashe is, if she runs toward creep, plus because their creep is attacking after you, they're not pushing down your creep, halting the level 2 attempt.
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On July 14 2011 03:30 Southlight wrote:
Depends on who your AD is. Ezreal can, yes. Trist maybe maybe not, though Trist would fairly happily welcome level 3/4 before engaging. If they're clearly going for the level 2 ding and pushing it fast there's no point in playing the attrition game until creep stabilizes, to be honest? Don't take damage and reset for equalized levels, then gun after them.
I tend to see a zone attempt if they try to push the creep like that at level 2 with that sort of matchup though, especially with Ezreal. Or they can sit in the creep to avoid zone/skillshot but then they're the ones fucked if there's a damage exchange.
Edit:
Sorry, zone attempt because Ashe volley + crit is on CD so Ez can feel free to wrap around and go for skillshots. Soraka heal CD is also low enough that you can press them back.
For example let's say you do that, but Janna snares the Ashe, and the Ezreal walks around to line up skillshots, where's Ashe going to go? She can either run into the creep to ding level 2 faster and try to block Q, but that means if there's an auto exchange she'll tank the creep faster. If she tries to dodge she's a bit snared. Or if she runs backward then she's getting zoned. Also Ashe level 2 doesn't really help. You can do some further shenanigans as Janna by attacking the Ashe and pulling the creep to you (with armor runes and pots ezpz) and so the Ezreal is no longer in danger of tanking creep while Ashe is, if she runs toward creep, plus because their creep is attacking after you, they're not pushing down your creep, halting the level 2 attempt.
So you're telling me that you have no regards to cs score so f last hits attack the ashe, the ashe lets you walk up to her when she has way more range than you, and she's really vulnerable going for melee creeps with 600 range, and you're going to dive against a stronger wave because armor runes can let you tank like a boss and you're going to kill her because soraka can heal that shit back up, and of course no jungler that can punish you being super aggressive. I won't include the popular tp soloes.
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At level 1 on first wave there's not a whole lot of CS score, except for maybe 1 or 2 for the Ashe, yes. And I'm not trying to CS as Janna. Ashe doesn't have to let me walk up to her, she's stuck having to dodge Ezreal as well as me, because they don't have bush control (especially if they volley creep for level 2 ding) so we can just circumvent the creep and walk over there. Also, if she backpedals because she's afraid of my W so that she's zoned out of some creep exp, I'm not gonna complain.
If the jungler wants to gank at level 1 then so be it, I've died in stranger ways. If their solo wants to teleport gank at level 1, so be it, I've died in stranger ways.
Edit:
Color me puzzled. I'm talking about how Janna lanes need to take advantage of early strength, and you're at a bit of mercy regarding AD matchup, and is why she's admittedly not as flexible as the babysit Soraka/Sonas (whom can just sit back and walking fountain people). You explain an opening scenario in which the Ashe guns for a level 2 ding by Volleying and critting a creep, to get the push started. I counter by saying that wasting Volley on creep is asking to get zoned, and that if Ashe decides to walk TOWARD the creep in order to maintain level 2 ding instead of being zoned I can pull the creep to me so Ez can 1v1 Ashe. Then you say that Ashe would be retarded to let me W her. Well sure I'm fine her zoning herself. That's what I want anyways. But then you bring up teleport ganks and junglers. Woah on the first creep? I mean they can do it, and with heroes like Nunu it wouldn't surprise me (though I'd think we'd have a handle on where jungler's starting), but if they want to use a level 1 teleport gank on the first creep wave then more power to them.
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On July 14 2011 03:41 Southlight wrote:
At level 1 on first wave there's not a whole lot of CS score, except for maybe 1 or 2 for the Ashe, yes. And I'm not trying to CS as Janna. Ashe doesn't have to let me walk up to her, she's stuck having to dodge Ezreal as well as me, because they don't have bush control (especially if they volley creep for level 2 ding) so we can just circumvent the creep and walk over there. Also, if she backpedals because she's afraid of my W so that she's zoned out of some creep exp, I'm not gonna complain.
So level 1, you got control of both brushes, ezreal has a really easy time hitting q's off lvl 1 with a weaker wave, and no1's going to punish you for walking up to them at lvl 1 and hitting them, especially a champion with 600 range, and on top of that, you're doing this before the second wave comes. It feels like you're hanging on real hard to the idea of ashe wasting both volley and crit. Ashe doesn't have to waste volley to equalize or get a stronger wave unless ezreal auto attacks like crazy.
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Who's going to punish? Volley/crit-less Ashe? Soraka autoattack? Or maybe Soraka opened Infuse, lolol?
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On July 14 2011 03:43 0123456789 wrote:
So level 1, you got control of both brushes, ezreal has a really easy time hitting q's off lvl 1 with a weaker wave, and no1's going to punish you for walking up to them at lvl 1 and hitting them, especially a champion with 600 range, and on top of that, you're doing this before the second wave comes. It feels like you're hanging on real hard to the idea of ashe wasting both volley and crit. Ashe doesn't have to waste volley to equalize or get a stronger wave unless ezreal auto attacks like crazy.
On July 14 2011 03:26 0123456789 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 03:22 Southlight wrote:
Nope, just simple level 2 numbers. Soraka level 2 isn't very effective (primarily only has a long cd heal, though it gives armor), same goes for Sona especially if you focus-fire one person. Janna's got the strongest level 2 via having a nuke/snare as well as a shield. I've been saying that she NEEDS to go on the offensive. Somewhat different from the other supports who can ride the AD matchup (ie. Trist vs Ashe) and back up the AD but otherwise don't really contribute as much. Let's say that ashe ff'd and killed a creep faster than you with his crit, and then dmged 5 creeps with volley and has a stronger push vs you. Now you're trying to auto attack the wave, and ashe is trying to equalize the wave. Lvl 2 comes, are you going to try to dive a lot of creeps to try to deal dmg to ashe soraka? If you don't kill, soraka can heal it up pretty well.
On July 12 2011 02:51 Shikyo wrote:
Well, Southlight doesn't seem to read anyone elses posts
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On July 14 2011 03:46 Southlight wrote:
Who's going to punish? Volley/crit-less Ashe? Soraka autoattack? Or maybe Soraka opened Infuse, lolol?
Obviously your w and auto attack are going to be some serious dmg, and ezreal is going to follow up with flash q's lvl 1 while you still tank things. The ashe doesn't have any summoners either to mitigate dmg or buy time while you're tanking creeps constantly and fighting, with 4 bars.
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On July 14 2011 03:49 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 03:43 0123456789 wrote:
So level 1, you got control of both brushes, ezreal has a really easy time hitting q's off lvl 1 with a weaker wave, and no1's going to punish you for walking up to them at lvl 1 and hitting them, especially a champion with 600 range, and on top of that, you're doing this before the second wave comes. It feels like you're hanging on real hard to the idea of ashe wasting both volley and crit. Ashe doesn't have to waste volley to equalize or get a stronger wave unless ezreal auto attacks like crazy. Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 03:26 0123456789 wrote:On July 14 2011 03:22 Southlight wrote:
Nope, just simple level 2 numbers. Soraka level 2 isn't very effective (primarily only has a long cd heal, though it gives armor), same goes for Sona especially if you focus-fire one person. Janna's got the strongest level 2 via having a nuke/snare as well as a shield. I've been saying that she NEEDS to go on the offensive. Somewhat different from the other supports who can ride the AD matchup (ie. Trist vs Ashe) and back up the AD but otherwise don't really contribute as much. Let's say that ashe ff'd and killed a creep faster than you with his crit, and then dmged 5 creeps with volley and has a stronger push vs you. Now you're trying to auto attack the wave, and ashe is trying to equalize the wave. Lvl 2 comes, are you going to try to dive a lot of creeps to try to deal dmg to ashe soraka? If you don't kill, soraka can heal it up pretty well. Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 02:51 Shikyo wrote:
Well, Southlight doesn't seem to read anyone elses posts
I guess I have to post common sense posts because people can't read behind the lines. Obviously every ashe is going to waste volley to push the wave in every matchup when you changed your stance from auto attacking and pushing a wave, to now blitzing at lvl 1. The volley to creeps is a tool to control the wave as ashe wants, something that ezreal doesn't have. No, not every ashe is going to waste volley every time at lvl 1 to push wave. The entire arguement stems from the fact that you think you have free control of waves to do whatever you want as Janna and carry, even vs weak carry and Soraka. No, oh wait, you're going to use trist janna, or ezreal janna only vs ashe soraka.
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btw, from the peanut gallery, this argument got really stupid really really really really fast.
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I hear when someone asks me what we'd do in a hypothetical theorycraft situ where someone does a certain action, that I'm supposed to read behind the lines and not explain the obvious response to that action, but instead respond that that action is retarded to begin with and that it's impossible to play any other way.
You brought up a theorycraft situ.
I explained a very, very simple way to punish them for trying to do a level 2 ding.
You try to bring up "but but but" about a whole load of other unrelated stuff, like teleport ganks and jungle ganks (lol when the first wave isn't even dead yet!?!?) but I felt polite enough to answer "if they want to they can."
Now you're trying to act high and mighty saying that I'm a retard for answering your theorycraft situ.
Can't win any way, I guess. Sure, spellcasters suck because you can never land spells (they're stupid if they don't just run back to avoid getting hit!), and Ezreal is useless because you have to be retarded to ever get hit by Q. Also apparently you have to
On July 14 2011 03:50 0123456789 wrote:
flash q's lvl 1
to land Qs, and Soraka heals 400 HP in 30 seconds at level 1 without running out of mana at all.
And when you go harass people to ping Soraka's mana down you can't actually break off, WHEN YOU GO YOU MUST TANK ALL CREEP AND TOWERS TO GET DA KILL, ALWAYS KILL NEVER RUN HUEHUEHUE.
Seriously?
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On July 14 2011 03:56 Southlight wrote:I hear when someone asks me what we'd do in a hypothetical theorycraft situ where someone does a certain action, that I'm supposed to read behind the lines and not explain the obvious response to that action, but instead respond that that action is retarded to begin with and that it's impossible to play any other way. You brought up a theorycraft situ. I explained a very, very simple way to punish them for trying to do a level 2 ding. You try to bring up "but but but" about a whole load of other unrelated stuff, like teleport ganks and jungle ganks (lol when the first wave isn't even dead yet!?!?) but I felt polite enough to answer "if they want to they can." Now you're trying to act high and mighty saying that I'm a retard for answering your theorycraft situ. Can't win any way, I guess. Sure, spellcasters suck because you can never land spells (they're stupid if they don't just run back to avoid getting hit!), and Ezreal is useless because you have to be retarded to ever get hit by Q. Also apparently you have to to land Qs, and Soraka heals 400 HP in 30 seconds at level 1 without running out of mana at all. And when you go harass people to ping Soraka's mana down you can't actually break off, WHEN YOU GO YOU MUST TANK ALL CREEP AND TOWERS TO GET DA KILL, ALWAYS KILL NEVER RUN HUEHUEHUE. Seriously?
Seriously....
Why would ashe and soraka ever try to ding a lvl 2 pressure attack. Does that make sense?
You're not even talking about the thing I'm talking about. Janna turns to lvl 2, or stays lvl 1 and deals signifcant dmg to other lane + soraka to mitigate soraka's usefulness with heals, when all 4 players are good.
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On July 14 2011 03:59 0123456789 wrote:
Seriously....
Why would ashe and soraka ever try to ding a lvl 2 pressure attack. Does that make sense?
You're not even talking about the thing I'm talking about.
On July 14 2011 03:26 0123456789 wrote:
Let's say that ashe ff'd and killed a creep faster than you with his crit, and then dmged 5 creeps with volley and has a stronger push vs you. Now you're trying to auto attack the wave, and ashe is trying to equalize the wave. Lvl 2 comes, are you going to try to dive a lot of creeps to try to deal dmg to ashe soraka? If you don't kill, soraka can heal it up pretty well.
Edit:
On July 14 2011 03:54 Mogwai wrote:btw, from the peanut gallery, this argument got really stupid really really really really fast.
I didn't feel it until he brought up the jungle/teleport ganks. Guess I'm slow
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On July 14 2011 03:04 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 03:00 Mogwai wrote:
honestly you win bot lane every time because we play with IRL friends who aren't at your level so you're pretty much constantly playing vs. lesser opposition. This isn't to say that you're necessarily wrong, but it does take some weight away from that argument.
also, this is why creating champion threads before the champ is out is stupid. might as well call this the bot lane discussion thread, zzzz. I'm winning bot lanes in solo queue too.................... ........ but then again I'm still under where I probably should be so that argument dies. Mweh. My point was more mathematically, Janna vs Sona for instance, Sona flat-out does less damage to Janna with my runeset than I do back, if she doesn't have the same type of runes. This forces Sona to be less effective, as I can prevent her from double Q, and drain mana on heals, which is not mana efficient. Boom, lane won, pending AD matchup. And that's not an area I can control. Edit: By the way I'm operating under the assumption that the armor runeset hasn't caught on with supports, which as far as I know is still true, with the possible exception of Taric (mainly because it was popularized on him in the first place >_o). Haven't really seen any of the top support players run that sort of set yet. Edit2:
My point in the above is that if you play the matchup right you shouldn't really lose a lane unless the AD matchup (as an example) is really bad, in which case yeah you're in trouble. But you'll have a similar issue with like Soraka Ashe vs Ezreal Janna, as an example, because they'll literally just level 2 you despite having supposedly an inferior lane. Mweh. It just boggles my mind that people can consider Janna "the worst" support; she definitely excels in a lot of matchups, just not as flexible as Sora.
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Page 6 of this thread is proof we need more moderation.
WHY are you guys arguing about Ashe Soraka in this champion discussion?
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Only reason I brought up tp ganks and shit is because you talk like you can do any type of aggressive move whenever you want without any repercussions. Yes, you talked about f'ing up a lane early, and then keeping them f'ed up whenever because that's what janna can do. My posts also have a lot of sarcasm, might be hard to read between the lines, and see the difference between serious and sarcasm.
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歌姫ちゃんと者雪ちゃんがほんとに一緒にとてもかわいいだぜ ＾＿＾
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So are having a misunderstanding due to poor wording on my part? By level 2 I meant they can just go for a level 2 fight and kill, level 2/2 vs level 2/2, because Ezreal with Q + E can run down Ashe/Soraka in a hurry, especially with a snare + shield for damage buff. I didn't mean rush to ding level 2. In which case my bad
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On July 14 2011 04:02 Chrispy wrote:
Page 6 of this thread is proof we need more moderation.
WHY are you guys arguing about Ashe Soraka in this champion discussion?
Champ's not released. So people were speculating about Leona's role in bot lane, which diverged into power levels and viability of bottom lane supports. Moderation = people shouldn't make threads on champs that don't exist.
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Wow, I feel like I wasted so much of my time because of a little misunderstanding.
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On July 14 2011 04:05 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 04:02 Chrispy wrote:
Page 6 of this thread is proof we need more moderation.
WHY are you guys arguing about Ashe Soraka in this champion discussion? Champ's not released. So people were speculating about Leona's role in bot lane, which diverged into power levels and viability of bottom lane supports. Moderation = people shouldn't make threads on champs that don't exist.
Yes, we need champion threads only when it is released. Looking back prior to sc2 beta's release, I couldn't help but ignore sc2 threads as most of them are utter crap.
And to add my very insightful contribution to this thread..when is this champ coming out??
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Valhalla18444 Posts
i dunno, but we'll have a new thread
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6JSIw.jpg)
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