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On December 19 2011 07:50 STS17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 04:51 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 19 2011 02:38 dogen wrote:
nasus does pretty bad vs yorick once yorick hits lvl 4-5 Nasus does get pooped on by Yorick for the early levels. Once Nasus gets his rank 2 passive and hits around lvl 7+, he can out-sustain most of Yorick's harass. In fact, Nasus is considered among the hardest counters to Yorick 'cause you can get a crapload of Q stacks off of his ghouls. Go ahead and get your precious Q stacks off of ghouls. You still are getting your items much later because you are missing out on CS that way while yorick is farming just fine. Seriously, I don't understand the notion that nasus > yorick, I have never lost to one when I play that MU.
I've played both sides of the matchup and is Nasus plays safe he can definitely "win" his lane. He won't be pushing Yorick out of lane or even outfarming him unless the Yorick is godawful. But it's okay for Nasus to be 10-20 cs behind Yorick and catch up after laning because Nasus scales much harder than Yorick the later the game goes. All you really need is cloth, maybe some gp/10 (philo+hog) and you will be fine. If the nasus doesn't build right or plays overly aggressive Yorick can facestomp the Nasus, but if the Nasus plays safe and only takes what he can get until he hits lvl 7 ish he will be fine.
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Meh, I disagree with the whole Nasus outscales Yorick assertion. In terms of ability to tank damage they are fairly equal while Yorick brings arguably more teamfight utility than a nasus does. Lategame both are capable of taking down towers quickly (though obviously nasus takes the cake here) while Yorick is much less susceptible to being kited than Nasus.
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On December 19 2011 08:08 STS17 wrote:
Meh, I disagree with the whole Nasus outscales Yorick assertion. In terms of ability to tank damage they are fairly equal while Yorick brings arguably more teamfight utility than a nasus does. Lategame both are capable of taking down towers quickly (though obviously nasus takes the cake here) while Yorick is much less susceptible to being kited than Nasus.
Yorick has his ulti, which is amazing. Other than that, he doesn't have much utiltiy. Sure, he has an aoe slow, but it's not that strong and easy to get rid of. His Q and E don't have much teamfight utility. Nasus has more much more damage, an aoe armor shred, aoe %hp drain, and a single-target slow that essentially shuts down any AD champ for its duration. You're going to have a really hard time convincing people Yorick > Nasus lategame. Nasus isn't that kited harder than Yorick. Wither guarantees you can stick to a target np.
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On December 19 2011 08:14 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 08:08 STS17 wrote:
Meh, I disagree with the whole Nasus outscales Yorick assertion. In terms of ability to tank damage they are fairly equal while Yorick brings arguably more teamfight utility than a nasus does. Lategame both are capable of taking down towers quickly (though obviously nasus takes the cake here) while Yorick is much less susceptible to being kited than Nasus. Yorick has his ulti, which is amazing. Other than that, he doesn't have much utiltiy. Sure, he has an aoe slow, but it's not that strong and easy to get rid of. His Q and E don't have much teamfight utility. Nasus has more much more damage, an aoe armor shred, aoe %hp drain, and a single-target slow that essentially shuts down any AD champ for its duration. You're going to have a really hard time convincing people Yorick > Nasus lategame. Nasus isn't that kited harder than Yorick. Wither guarantees you can stick to a target np.
If your ad carry isn't taking cleanse against nasus then your carry is bad.
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On December 19 2011 08:14 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 08:08 STS17 wrote:
Meh, I disagree with the whole Nasus outscales Yorick assertion. In terms of ability to tank damage they are fairly equal while Yorick brings arguably more teamfight utility than a nasus does. Lategame both are capable of taking down towers quickly (though obviously nasus takes the cake here) while Yorick is much less susceptible to being kited than Nasus. Yorick has his ulti, which is amazing. Other than that, he doesn't have much utiltiy. Sure, he has an aoe slow, but it's not that strong and easy to get rid of. His Q and E don't have much teamfight utility. Nasus has more much more damage, an aoe armor shred, aoe %hp drain, and a single-target slow that essentially shuts down any AD champ for its duration. You're going to have a really hard time convincing people Yorick > Nasus lategame. Nasus isn't that kited harder than Yorick. Wither guarantees you can stick to a target np.
I'm not quite sure that Spirit Fire + Wither is better for team fights than Yorick's ult. Nasus himself obviously way out damages Yorick, but you can also shut down a lot of Nasus' damage by kiting him//CCing him. Once Yorick ghosts your carry it's not like you're going to blow your CC on the ghost, meanwhile Yorick can much more easily keep himself in the fight even if all he's allowed to do is spam ghouls at range.
I have no idea why STS17 would ever argue that Nasus DOESN'T outscale Yorick, as Nasus with farm is farrrr more deadly than Yorick with farm. Hell, Yorick could be underfarmed and underleveled as shit, as long as he ghosts his carry (and they're fed) he's worth having on the team. If Yorick didn't crush 90% of his lanes he wouldn't even be worth playing, and he's my most played champion (I play him 2/3 of all my ranked games, lol).
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On December 19 2011 08:15 STS17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 08:14 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 19 2011 08:08 STS17 wrote:
Meh, I disagree with the whole Nasus outscales Yorick assertion. In terms of ability to tank damage they are fairly equal while Yorick brings arguably more teamfight utility than a nasus does. Lategame both are capable of taking down towers quickly (though obviously nasus takes the cake here) while Yorick is much less susceptible to being kited than Nasus. Yorick has his ulti, which is amazing. Other than that, he doesn't have much utiltiy. Sure, he has an aoe slow, but it's not that strong and easy to get rid of. His Q and E don't have much teamfight utility. Nasus has more much more damage, an aoe armor shred, aoe %hp drain, and a single-target slow that essentially shuts down any AD champ for its duration. You're going to have a really hard time convincing people Yorick > Nasus lategame. Nasus isn't that kited harder than Yorick. Wither guarantees you can stick to a target np. If your ad carry isn't taking cleanse against nasus then your carry is bad.
Nasus is likely going to have max or near max cdr. Wither's going to be on a ~6 second cooldown so if the AD carry cleanses the first wither it's not a big deal. Not only that, but you're probably also going to have the Triforce slow to slow the AD carry so Nasus can stick to them. Nasus won't have a problem sticking to people.
Besides, no one said you have to whither the AD carry. You can whither enemy bruisers to peel for your own AD carry and let them rip the other team apart. Note I said AD champ not carry.
On December 19 2011 08:21 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 08:14 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 19 2011 08:08 STS17 wrote:
Meh, I disagree with the whole Nasus outscales Yorick assertion. In terms of ability to tank damage they are fairly equal while Yorick brings arguably more teamfight utility than a nasus does. Lategame both are capable of taking down towers quickly (though obviously nasus takes the cake here) while Yorick is much less susceptible to being kited than Nasus. Yorick has his ulti, which is amazing. Other than that, he doesn't have much utiltiy. Sure, he has an aoe slow, but it's not that strong and easy to get rid of. His Q and E don't have much teamfight utility. Nasus has more much more damage, an aoe armor shred, aoe %hp drain, and a single-target slow that essentially shuts down any AD champ for its duration. You're going to have a really hard time convincing people Yorick > Nasus lategame. Nasus isn't that kited harder than Yorick. Wither guarantees you can stick to a target np. I'm not quite sure that Spirit Fire + Wither is better for team fights than Yorick's ult. Nasus himself obviously way out damages Yorick, but you can also shut down a lot of Nasus' damage by kiting him//CCing him. Once Yorick ghosts your carry it's not like you're going to blow your CC on the ghost, meanwhile Yorick can much more easily keep himself in the fight even if all he's allowed to do is spam ghouls at range. I have no idea why STS17 would ever argue that Nasus DOESN'T outscale Yorick, as Nasus with farm is farrrr more deadly than Yorick with farm. Hell, Yorick could be underfarmed and underleveled as shit, as long as he ghosts his carry (and they're fed) he's worth having on the team. If Yorick didn't crush 90% of his lanes he wouldn't even be worth playing, and he's my most played champion (I play him 2/3 of all my ranked games, lol).
I'm not saying Spirit Fire+Wither is necessarily better than Yorick's ult. If your team's AD carry is super fed, then obviously Yorick ult is better. Both Yorick and Nasus can be carried ad infinitum. The difference is Nasus has more potential for disruption than Yorick. A Nasus forces the enemy team to blow cc on him, whereas a Yorick is more or less ignorable (relative to Nasus) after he ults. A blown CC on the Nasus means one less CC blown on your team. Nasus is also a tank, it's fine for him to eat CC. Obviously it's ideal if he doesn't get CC'd but it's not necessarily a bad thing either.
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On December 19 2011 08:24 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 08:15 STS17 wrote:On December 19 2011 08:14 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 19 2011 08:08 STS17 wrote:
Meh, I disagree with the whole Nasus outscales Yorick assertion. In terms of ability to tank damage they are fairly equal while Yorick brings arguably more teamfight utility than a nasus does. Lategame both are capable of taking down towers quickly (though obviously nasus takes the cake here) while Yorick is much less susceptible to being kited than Nasus. Yorick has his ulti, which is amazing. Other than that, he doesn't have much utiltiy. Sure, he has an aoe slow, but it's not that strong and easy to get rid of. His Q and E don't have much teamfight utility. Nasus has more much more damage, an aoe armor shred, aoe %hp drain, and a single-target slow that essentially shuts down any AD champ for its duration. You're going to have a really hard time convincing people Yorick > Nasus lategame. Nasus isn't that kited harder than Yorick. Wither guarantees you can stick to a target np. If your ad carry isn't taking cleanse against nasus then your carry is bad. Nasus is likely going to have max or near max cdr. Wither's going to be on a ~6 second cooldown so if the AD carry cleanses the first wither it's not a big deal. Not only that, but you're probably also going to have the Triforce slow to slow the AD carry so Nasus can stick to them. Nasus won't have a problem sticking to people. Besides, no one said you have to whither the AD carry. You can whither enemy bruisers to peel for your own AD carry and let them rip the other team apart. Note I said AD champ not carry. Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 08:21 Zdrastochye wrote:On December 19 2011 08:14 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 19 2011 08:08 STS17 wrote:
Meh, I disagree with the whole Nasus outscales Yorick assertion. In terms of ability to tank damage they are fairly equal while Yorick brings arguably more teamfight utility than a nasus does. Lategame both are capable of taking down towers quickly (though obviously nasus takes the cake here) while Yorick is much less susceptible to being kited than Nasus. Yorick has his ulti, which is amazing. Other than that, he doesn't have much utiltiy. Sure, he has an aoe slow, but it's not that strong and easy to get rid of. His Q and E don't have much teamfight utility. Nasus has more much more damage, an aoe armor shred, aoe %hp drain, and a single-target slow that essentially shuts down any AD champ for its duration. You're going to have a really hard time convincing people Yorick > Nasus lategame. Nasus isn't that kited harder than Yorick. Wither guarantees you can stick to a target np. I'm not quite sure that Spirit Fire + Wither is better for team fights than Yorick's ult. Nasus himself obviously way out damages Yorick, but you can also shut down a lot of Nasus' damage by kiting him//CCing him. Once Yorick ghosts your carry it's not like you're going to blow your CC on the ghost, meanwhile Yorick can much more easily keep himself in the fight even if all he's allowed to do is spam ghouls at range. I have no idea why STS17 would ever argue that Nasus DOESN'T outscale Yorick, as Nasus with farm is farrrr more deadly than Yorick with farm. Hell, Yorick could be underfarmed and underleveled as shit, as long as he ghosts his carry (and they're fed) he's worth having on the team. If Yorick didn't crush 90% of his lanes he wouldn't even be worth playing, and he's my most played champion (I play him 2/3 of all my ranked games, lol). I'm not saying Spirit Fire+Wither is necessarily better than Yorick's ult. If your team's AD carry is super fed, then obviously Yorick ult is better. Both Yorick and Nasus can be carried ad infinitum. The difference is Nasus has more potential for disruption than Yorick. A Nasus forces the enemy team to blow cc on him, whereas a Yorick is more or less ignorable (relative to Nasus) after he ults. A blown CC on the Nasus means one less CC blown on your team. Nasus is also a tank, it's fine for him to eat CC. Obviously it's ideal if he doesn't get CC'd but it's not necessarily a bad thing either.
You sound like you don't play Yorick. Nasus is a tank and Yorick is not? I never have a Yorick game where I'm under 100 armor/mr once we start team fighting. Yorick's damage is at neglectable as Mord's damage. Seriously, if you ignore Yorick entirely he WILL destroy the squishies with ease.
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On December 19 2011 08:55 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 08:24 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 19 2011 08:15 STS17 wrote:On December 19 2011 08:14 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 19 2011 08:08 STS17 wrote:
Meh, I disagree with the whole Nasus outscales Yorick assertion. In terms of ability to tank damage they are fairly equal while Yorick brings arguably more teamfight utility than a nasus does. Lategame both are capable of taking down towers quickly (though obviously nasus takes the cake here) while Yorick is much less susceptible to being kited than Nasus. Yorick has his ulti, which is amazing. Other than that, he doesn't have much utiltiy. Sure, he has an aoe slow, but it's not that strong and easy to get rid of. His Q and E don't have much teamfight utility. Nasus has more much more damage, an aoe armor shred, aoe %hp drain, and a single-target slow that essentially shuts down any AD champ for its duration. You're going to have a really hard time convincing people Yorick > Nasus lategame. Nasus isn't that kited harder than Yorick. Wither guarantees you can stick to a target np. If your ad carry isn't taking cleanse against nasus then your carry is bad. Nasus is likely going to have max or near max cdr. Wither's going to be on a ~6 second cooldown so if the AD carry cleanses the first wither it's not a big deal. Not only that, but you're probably also going to have the Triforce slow to slow the AD carry so Nasus can stick to them. Nasus won't have a problem sticking to people. Besides, no one said you have to whither the AD carry. You can whither enemy bruisers to peel for your own AD carry and let them rip the other team apart. Note I said AD champ not carry. On December 19 2011 08:21 Zdrastochye wrote:On December 19 2011 08:14 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 19 2011 08:08 STS17 wrote:
Meh, I disagree with the whole Nasus outscales Yorick assertion. In terms of ability to tank damage they are fairly equal while Yorick brings arguably more teamfight utility than a nasus does. Lategame both are capable of taking down towers quickly (though obviously nasus takes the cake here) while Yorick is much less susceptible to being kited than Nasus. Yorick has his ulti, which is amazing. Other than that, he doesn't have much utiltiy. Sure, he has an aoe slow, but it's not that strong and easy to get rid of. His Q and E don't have much teamfight utility. Nasus has more much more damage, an aoe armor shred, aoe %hp drain, and a single-target slow that essentially shuts down any AD champ for its duration. You're going to have a really hard time convincing people Yorick > Nasus lategame. Nasus isn't that kited harder than Yorick. Wither guarantees you can stick to a target np. I'm not quite sure that Spirit Fire + Wither is better for team fights than Yorick's ult. Nasus himself obviously way out damages Yorick, but you can also shut down a lot of Nasus' damage by kiting him//CCing him. Once Yorick ghosts your carry it's not like you're going to blow your CC on the ghost, meanwhile Yorick can much more easily keep himself in the fight even if all he's allowed to do is spam ghouls at range. I have no idea why STS17 would ever argue that Nasus DOESN'T outscale Yorick, as Nasus with farm is farrrr more deadly than Yorick with farm. Hell, Yorick could be underfarmed and underleveled as shit, as long as he ghosts his carry (and they're fed) he's worth having on the team. If Yorick didn't crush 90% of his lanes he wouldn't even be worth playing, and he's my most played champion (I play him 2/3 of all my ranked games, lol). I'm not saying Spirit Fire+Wither is necessarily better than Yorick's ult. If your team's AD carry is super fed, then obviously Yorick ult is better. Both Yorick and Nasus can be carried ad infinitum. The difference is Nasus has more potential for disruption than Yorick. A Nasus forces the enemy team to blow cc on him, whereas a Yorick is more or less ignorable (relative to Nasus) after he ults. A blown CC on the Nasus means one less CC blown on your team. Nasus is also a tank, it's fine for him to eat CC. Obviously it's ideal if he doesn't get CC'd but it's not necessarily a bad thing either. You sound like you don't play Yorick. Nasus is a tank and Yorick is not? I never have a Yorick game where I'm under 100 armor/mr once we start team fighting. Yorick's damage is at neglectable as Mord's damage. Seriously, if you ignore Yorick entirely he WILL destroy the squishies with ease.
I never said Yorick isn't a tank. And I also said Yorick is ignorable relative to Nasus. Nasus presents a much higher threat than Yorick does. Simply put, who would you rather face? A fed/farmed Nasus or a fed/farmed Yorick?
Yorick can kill squishies, but his threat level is much much lower than that of Nasus. Nasus can literally 2-shot squishies in later stages of the game, whereas Yorick doesn't do nearly as much damage.
People pick Nasus for his monstrous lategame. People pick Yorick for his ability to dick the other guy in lane and for his ultimate. Alone, Yorick isn't very strong lategame. Yorick's strength in teamfights comes from his ability to amplify his AD carry's damage by 75%.
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So I've been running Armor yellows, Mres blues, heath quints and ad marks, with 8/21/1 and flash/exhaust. Opening dorans blade x 2 > boots1 > sheen > phage > cdr boors > trinity force -> atmog's & situational items, etc.
Destroys solo top, and mid game engagements. Don't know why people are rushing tear/manamue yorick really doesn't need it as much as more damage early game and its not worth the sacrifice imo.
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That build would make you pretty squishy until late game though, which is exactly why Yorick isn't supposed to be. I've never understood Triforce rushes.
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On January 03 2012 17:03 Ferrose wrote:
That build would make you pretty squishy until late game though, which is exactly why Yorick isn't supposed to be. I've never understood Triforce rushes.
Two dorans and a phage isnt exactly squishy especially with his heal and his passive, and my runes/masteries, and depending on the lane I swap Cdr boots with mercs/ninja tabi but he is still really tanky without them, if i really need the extra health (like nassus lane) i grab belt after phage before completing trinity. It just seams like there is no damage at all if you waste cash on tear, or open lantern instead.
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With that build wouldn't u go oom really really really fast? A Yorick with no mana is a sitting duck. You get tear/manamune because it helps your extreme mana consumption. The AD is a bonus tbh.
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On January 03 2012 18:39 Ryuu314 wrote:
With that build wouldn't u go oom really really really fast? A Yorick with no mana is a sitting duck. You get tear/manamune because it helps your extreme mana consumption. The AD is a bonus tbh.
Idk I honestly am not having mana problems on him all three of his ghouls have relativity low mana costs and sheen gives bonus mana, early game its all about maximizing your sheen procs on opponents and not spamming you abilities to harrass. Late game mana isnt really an issue any way.
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On January 03 2012 19:34 gosuMalicE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 18:39 Ryuu314 wrote:
With that build wouldn't u go oom really really really fast? A Yorick with no mana is a sitting duck. You get tear/manamune because it helps your extreme mana consumption. The AD is a bonus tbh. Idk I honestly am not having mana problems on him all three of his ghouls have relativity low mana costs and sheen gives bonus mana, early game its all about maximizing your sheen procs on opponents and not spamming you abilities to harrass. Late game mana isnt really an issue any way.
I disagree...Yorick's early game is all about harassment. With a select few matchups as exceptions, Yorick can harass and push/zone people really really easily early on before they get sustain items like wriggles. If you're going to completely ignore Yorick's really strong early game laning then you're probably better off playing something else imo.
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On January 03 2012 19:50 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 19:34 gosuMalicE wrote:On January 03 2012 18:39 Ryuu314 wrote:
With that build wouldn't u go oom really really really fast? A Yorick with no mana is a sitting duck. You get tear/manamune because it helps your extreme mana consumption. The AD is a bonus tbh. Idk I honestly am not having mana problems on him all three of his ghouls have relativity low mana costs and sheen gives bonus mana, early game its all about maximizing your sheen procs on opponents and not spamming you abilities to harrass. Late game mana isnt really an issue any way. I disagree...Yorick's early game is all about harassment. With a select few matchups as exceptions, Yorick can harass and push/zone people really really easily early on before they get sustain items like wriggles. If you're going to completely ignore Yorick's really strong early game laning then you're probably better off playing something else imo.
Well I never said not to harras, jut not spam you ranged abilities in lane early game, going in for q pokes with sheen are low on mana and way more damaging then the ranged ones anyway. Dont need to cast E as much to heal too as the lifesteal from dorans keeps you healed nice.
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So a bit more playing around with the build today and I'm finding getting warmogs immidiatly after sheen and phage, before completing trinity force, allows you to be way more aggressive into the midgame. After triforce, it either frozen heart or force of nature, depending on enemy team composition.
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Is there any standart bo ? I tend to go boot +3 > Manamune and then i'm a bit lost. Most of the time I buy a FH or a SV but I don't think it's optimal.
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On March 10 2012 05:51 Erasme wrote:
Is there any standart bo ? I tend to go boot +3 > Manamune and then i'm a bit lost. Most of the time I buy a FH or a SV but I don't think it's optimal.
boots+3 into Tear. Upgrade to manamune whenever you want; it's not necessary to upgrade immediately. You can follow up with spirit visage if you plan on laning for a long time or if they are heavy magic damage. SV is a situational niche item; it shouldn't be core. Frozen heart is a good item for Yorick. You can never go wrong with Atmogs. FoN is nice if you need magic resist. Triforce for more damage.
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Alright, so I bought Yorick when he was on sale (if you can't beat them, join them), and I've been playing him a ton, trying different builds and such.
I really feel like going Tear first is the wrong decision with this champion. Yorick has a very powerful early game with huge damage, sustain, harass and chasing ability. He also has very low cost spells.
Why on earth would you rush for a 1000g item that gives no damage or defence whatsoever? It makes as much sense to me as rushing a Tear on Pantheon. Honestly, he doesn't even remotely need a Tear. Mana regen blues, utility tree, Philo Stone. Pick two of the above and you should have no mana problems at all, just don't be dumb with your spells. You don't need to spam everything on CD to zone your opponent. Once you stop spending 1000g on a blue paperweight, you can get useful items earlier instead, like Wriggle's, Philo, Phage and Sheen. These allow you to actually fight them head on instead of being an annoying bastard.
Also, skill order. By far the most damaging spell (and the cheapest mana-wise) is Q. By getting Wriggle's you aren't dependent on E for sustain, so you can level Q instead and do real damage.
My overall feeling is that going Tear lets you be an annoying bastard in lane, but it also makes you a useless bastard after 15 minutes.
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i think the idea is that you can farm so quickly and safely on yorick you can quickly charge up a tear, and your skill set, while annoying isnt really aimed to kill people early, more zone them out, so going for a super agro opening doesnt really achieve much. it also translates to about 15 free ad if you build trinity and frozen heart later on :D
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EPT
