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On November 21 2011 16:49 disformation wrote:
I was thinking of when I should pick yorick and when I should pick another top laner... basically I came to the conclusion that I should always pick him, if he is not banned...
Does Yorick have any really bad match ups?
I have been playing him for a while, but I haven't met anyone that really put the hurt on me.
Nasus gets bad later on, when his Q cd is low enough so that he can simply stack on your ghouls. But you can still boss him around till he gets levels/items.
(keep in mind that I am fairly low elo[11xx], so my opponents could just have played badly.)
Though I haven't played vs Rumble, Renekton and Fizz so far... how are their match ups vs Yorick?
I also can see Ryze being kinda bad for Yori... anyone else I should be wary of?
Well can only speak for Rumble, you will basically win the matchup because Yorick is very easy to play vs Rumble while rumble needs lots of skill to win the matchup, if you play on 1.7k elo and up you might lose vs a Rumble, lower, you won't if you don't take stupid risks.
However, if you both are really good players a Rumble will basically win the fight but I'm sure you won't have any real trouble tbh.
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On November 22 2011 00:43 Yttrasil wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 16:49 disformation wrote:
I was thinking of when I should pick yorick and when I should pick another top laner... basically I came to the conclusion that I should always pick him, if he is not banned...
Does Yorick have any really bad match ups?
I have been playing him for a while, but I haven't met anyone that really put the hurt on me.
Nasus gets bad later on, when his Q cd is low enough so that he can simply stack on your ghouls. But you can still boss him around till he gets levels/items.
(keep in mind that I am fairly low elo[11xx], so my opponents could just have played badly.)
Though I haven't played vs Rumble, Renekton and Fizz so far... how are their match ups vs Yorick?
I also can see Ryze being kinda bad for Yori... anyone else I should be wary of? Well can only speak for Rumble, you will basically win the matchup because Yorick is very easy to play vs Rumble while rumble needs lots of skill to win the matchup, if you play on 1.7k elo and up you might lose vs a Rumble, lower, you won't if you don't take stupid risks. However, if you both are really good players a Rumble will basically win the fight but I'm sure you won't have any real trouble tbh.
A rumble has to commit to trade damage with a Yorick, but in terms of harassment, Yorick wins because Rumble's Q damage gets healed right out.
However, a good rumble is hard to deal with as anyone tbh. He has a high skill cap but he's a solid solo top.
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On November 22 2011 06:38 Havefa1th wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 00:43 Yttrasil wrote:On November 21 2011 16:49 disformation wrote:
I was thinking of when I should pick yorick and when I should pick another top laner... basically I came to the conclusion that I should always pick him, if he is not banned...
Does Yorick have any really bad match ups?
I have been playing him for a while, but I haven't met anyone that really put the hurt on me.
Nasus gets bad later on, when his Q cd is low enough so that he can simply stack on your ghouls. But you can still boss him around till he gets levels/items.
(keep in mind that I am fairly low elo[11xx], so my opponents could just have played badly.)
Though I haven't played vs Rumble, Renekton and Fizz so far... how are their match ups vs Yorick?
I also can see Ryze being kinda bad for Yori... anyone else I should be wary of? Well can only speak for Rumble, you will basically win the matchup because Yorick is very easy to play vs Rumble while rumble needs lots of skill to win the matchup, if you play on 1.7k elo and up you might lose vs a Rumble, lower, you won't if you don't take stupid risks. However, if you both are really good players a Rumble will basically win the fight but I'm sure you won't have any real trouble tbh. A rumble has to commit to trade damage with a Yorick, but in terms of harassment, Yorick wins because Rumble's Q damage gets healed right out. However, a good rumble is hard to deal with as anyone tbh. He has a high skill cap but he's a solid solo top.
Yep yep, that is exactly how it works in this matchup =) A Rumble has to commit to a real fight to death at lvl 4-5 to just go all out and outdamage a Yorick and have enough health at that point to manage to win by not trying to trade earlier a really good Yorick should be aware of this.
Hence my guess is that Yorick vs Rumble in high elo should harass and push and get cs until lvl 4 where Rumble cannot do too much and be pushed to tower, after he should be more safe and just lasthit with his spells and since Rumble will lose out on cs early game Yorick can win in the long run if ganks are present. Yorick is hard to gank after lvl 6 even with a jungler so it is an interesting matchup I think.
Last part very true =)
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On November 19 2011 00:55 STS17 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 22:19 Sponkz wrote:
I know defensive masteries aren't that cost effective, but damn 9/21/0 is so good on him. I tried out some weird shit, getting havoc, meditation and veteran scars, with ghost/tp however i seem to like ghost+cleanse alot more. I haven't had too much time to test this out since the mastery change (overloaded class schedule) but I still believe that 9/21/0 is still the core set-up for him. It's not as strong in it's purest form (%mpen, designed to help prevent opponent from itemizing to counter your sustain) but you do have the opportunity to get %arpen instead now which makes your sustain weaker against people who know to just kill your ghouls but you deal more damage yourself in teamfights since the majority of your damage is physical. 0/21/9 is something to consider in tougher matchups to get the extra mana and mana regeneration for the laning phase.
I've been running 9/15/6 on Yorick and it's been quite good. I'm liking the AD, CDR, and MagPen in Offense too much as well as the extra Mana from Utility. 21 Points in Defense I'm finding just isn't worth sacrificing the early Offense and Utility trees for Yoricks early and mid game.
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On November 24 2011 03:46 Ayestes wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2011 00:55 STS17 wrote:On November 18 2011 22:19 Sponkz wrote:
I know defensive masteries aren't that cost effective, but damn 9/21/0 is so good on him. I tried out some weird shit, getting havoc, meditation and veteran scars, with ghost/tp however i seem to like ghost+cleanse alot more. I haven't had too much time to test this out since the mastery change (overloaded class schedule) but I still believe that 9/21/0 is still the core set-up for him. It's not as strong in it's purest form (%mpen, designed to help prevent opponent from itemizing to counter your sustain) but you do have the opportunity to get %arpen instead now which makes your sustain weaker against people who know to just kill your ghouls but you deal more damage yourself in teamfights since the majority of your damage is physical. 0/21/9 is something to consider in tougher matchups to get the extra mana and mana regeneration for the laning phase. I've been running 9/15/6 on Yorick and it's been quite good. I'm liking the AD, CDR, and MagPen in Offense too much as well as the extra Mana from Utility. 21 Points in Defense I'm finding just isn't worth sacrificing the early Offense and Utility trees for Yoricks early and mid game.
The problem is that all the masteries are good. 21 defense makes it harder to shut you down in team fights because of the extra CC redux and health while the extra health (even if marginally so) makes your ghouls more durable in lane and thus harder to just kill off when you're harassing your opponent.
In many lanes you don't need the extra mana regen so I prefer the more defensive set up there as it gives you more of stats you can make use of. In some of the harder lanes yorick has you definitely need that extra mana regen but generally you need that extra regen in order to help your sustain because your opponent can also harass you effectively (i.e. trynd) so I choose not to sacrifice defense (meaning you take more damage) in those situations.
I don't believe either build is strictly better or worse then the other however.
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On November 25 2011 02:00 STS17 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 03:46 Ayestes wrote:On November 19 2011 00:55 STS17 wrote:On November 18 2011 22:19 Sponkz wrote:
I know defensive masteries aren't that cost effective, but damn 9/21/0 is so good on him. I tried out some weird shit, getting havoc, meditation and veteran scars, with ghost/tp however i seem to like ghost+cleanse alot more. I haven't had too much time to test this out since the mastery change (overloaded class schedule) but I still believe that 9/21/0 is still the core set-up for him. It's not as strong in it's purest form (%mpen, designed to help prevent opponent from itemizing to counter your sustain) but you do have the opportunity to get %arpen instead now which makes your sustain weaker against people who know to just kill your ghouls but you deal more damage yourself in teamfights since the majority of your damage is physical. 0/21/9 is something to consider in tougher matchups to get the extra mana and mana regeneration for the laning phase. I've been running 9/15/6 on Yorick and it's been quite good. I'm liking the AD, CDR, and MagPen in Offense too much as well as the extra Mana from Utility. 21 Points in Defense I'm finding just isn't worth sacrificing the early Offense and Utility trees for Yoricks early and mid game. The problem is that all the masteries are good. 21 defense makes it harder to shut you down in team fights because of the extra CC redux and health while the extra health (even if marginally so) makes your ghouls more durable in lane and thus harder to just kill off when you're harassing your opponent. In many lanes you don't need the extra mana regen so I prefer the more defensive set up there as it gives you more of stats you can make use of. In some of the harder lanes yorick has you definitely need that extra mana regen but generally you need that extra regen in order to help your sustain because your opponent can also harass you effectively (i.e. trynd) so I choose not to sacrifice defense (meaning you take more damage) in those situations. I don't believe either build is strictly better or worse then the other however.
Initiator, Honor Guard, and Mercenary beg to differ. Stopping at 15 defense makes a lot of sense to me. Yorick isn't really the type of front-liner that really needs Juggernaut, either.
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I've actually been running 9/0/21, Ignite/Ghost, AD/Mp5/Mp5/Armor, and starting Meki Pendant + x3 Health Pots lately with some pretty interesting results. It's meant to give me an excessive 25 Mp5 at level one which is over of tripling his regular mana regeneration. The entire point to Yorick for me is just absolutely shutting down your opponent in top lane and this build just goes to the extreme to be able to accomplish that. When you use Omen of Famine, you are regenerating the majority of the mana before it's cooldown is even up. The early game for Yorick used to be try to pressure them out, but the mana regeneration puts a significant halt on your harass until you get the Tear. This meant you'd have to always trade effectively with your opponent if you are harassing and focus on your defense. Just imagine being able to keep up the pressure the entire time, even those early levels. I even went the extremes beyond the early game and end up picking up a Reverie right after the Manamune. At level 13 (with Manamune, Reverie) you have nearly 50 Mp5 (and Hp5) and I'd pity any soul that is up in that top lane with you without excessive jungle help. Not to mention that Manamune is charged extraordinarily quickly and you can get a stronger mid game.
The downsides to this? You have to win the lane hard or you suck. It's similar to LeBlanc, except instead of winning in pure trades and burst you'd win via the harass and sustain because it'd be endless. I've been considering going back to the 9/15/6 masteries and seeing how it feels while keeping everything else the same. I'm essentially trading 15 points in Defense for Greed, 2% consistent movement speed, 3 Mp5 at level one, Sage, an extra starting Hp Pot, and the 15% faster summoners. In Defense I'd pick up the extra 6 Armor, ~2 Hp5, -2 Minion Damage, -2 Damage, and 3% movement speed when healthy. It's a question of whether my sustain can overcome the lost defense, since if you are able to sustain yourself at full while harassing then you didn't need the defense. Since no one else runs utility masteries anymore, your summoners will always be up quicker then theirs and it's possible you can exploit that as well. I have been going into the Perseverance mastery as well, instead of Intelligence, just to get a feel of how extreme the max level one Mp5 could be and it's possible I could switch that around if I stick with Utility. I could also run Mp5 Quints instead of Armor Quints to get as much Mp5 as humanly possible... although I think I'm way too low on Armor already without the Defensive Masteries.
It likely needs to be refined and it could be I'm just lucky with the few games I've tried it. I truly miss the defensive masteries and runes sometimes, because a smart opponent can try to trade with you 100-0 in minions with their defensive masteries and high armor to come out way ahead. Then again just a little smart play can by far out sustain anyone else in top lane period and so far I've evaded any trouble in that regard. I love going Warmogs, FoN, Atma, and Trinity later, but this build doesn't work best with that. Instead I end up going Reverie, Visage, Atma, and Trinity. While the CDR and Utility is awesome, you just arn't the beast you are with Atmogs. Then again, I've (so far) much more reliably made the opponent I'm up against in top lane end the game with a quarter of my own farm and essentially deleted their existence in the team fights. Is it too much? Maybe. Is it effective at doing what I feel Yorick is supposed to do, shut down the opponent in top lane? Seems that way.
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Defensive masteries help in lane, but I believe the primary reason for taking them is their immense benefit in teamfights compared to not having them. Sure the MP5 is great to have in lane but once the "real game" starts it's largely meaningless since the fights should not be going on anywhere near long enough to exhaust your mana supply. More importantly, the defensive masteries help keep you alive which is extremely important when you are ulting someone else as the ult disappears when you die which can completely fuck over your carry / team's damage potential.
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On November 21 2011 16:57 Ferrose wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 16:49 disformation wrote:
I was thinking of when I should pick yorick and when I should pick another top laner... basically I came to the conclusion that I should always pick him, if he is not banned...
Does Yorick have any really bad match ups?
I have been playing him for a while, but I haven't met anyone that really put the hurt on me.
Nasus gets bad later on, when his Q cd is low enough so that he can simply stack on your ghouls. But you can still boss him around till he gets levels/items.
(keep in mind that I am fairly low elo[11xx], so my opponents could just have played badly.)
Though I haven't played vs Rumble, Renekton and Fizz so far... how are their match ups vs Yorick?
I also can see Ryze being kinda bad for Yori... anyone else I should be wary of? Basically anyone who gets benefit from killing the ghouls or having the ghouls die around them. You mentioned Nasus since he can just Q your ghouls to stop your harass and get bonus damage on it. Trundle can outlast Yorick with his passive, since it gives him heals every time an enemy dies near him. Tryndamere could probably do well since he could get free hits on the ghouls for more Fury. I haven't laned against one but I'm told that Jarvan is a really good matchup against Yorick. But most champions you can just harass at will since Tear of the Goddess/Manamune will give you infinite mana and sustain. :3
I played against a Jarvan today and it was a pain in the ass. Like, there was little Jarvan could do to really stop me, but with his shield soaking up my harass damage and ulti (since I was running standard Ghost+TP), jungle ganks were a nightmare. Like, I warded top constantly to try and prevent it but died multiple times to Jarvan + Lee Sin because of his ulti, even after getting back to my turret. I had no problems outfarming him though, and it may have gone better with a less mobile jungler.
I find Rumble to be a fairly easy matchup for Yorick, since with W you can negate a lot of his stupid annoying Flamethrower damage, keep harassing him and punish him if he overheats.
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Someone care to give some insight towards Yorick vs Irelia/Galio?
I feel Irelia and Yorick are in a war of attrition and a farming contest at the same time. We both heal off of minions/each other, except Irelia doesn't cost mana to heal. It just seems like a fairly even matchup to me. If Yorick runs out of mana, Irelia just needs to pound on him and push. Thats how I feel about it.
I have no clue Galio v Yorick. Ghouls help Galio sustain himself, so idk how Yorick can expect to do much damage.
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Yorick doesn't "need" to beat these guys into the ground, he just needs to not lose farm. The fact its that Yorick has a ton of hidden scaling in teamfights (bonus auto attacks from his ghouls doubling his attack damage) and his ult is still a fantastic addition to any team with a hard scaling carry.
Against those two in particular, I haven't had large troubles against Irelia if you manage your mana properly (i.e. don't let it run out). Harassing Irelia is largely useless (true for 95% of champions anyways) so just farm knowing she can't do anything to you and that you do in fact outscale her in terms of damage. You win damage trades with her if she commits, though you shouldn't be forcing these except to put her ult on cooldown prior to a jungle gank because she can heal it back up.
Galio's shield is on a fairly long cooldown so you should still be able to outharass it pretty easily (requires more commitment then just E spam) while also forcing his bulwarks interferes with his ability to instantly clear waves (mana problems) or to buy mana regeneration which may or may not delay his actual items.
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Just take tp vs irelia and push her into tower with wave control -> timing spam push imo. ult yourself and dmg her tower when ur wave is big.
vs galio just farm and force him to stay in lane and don't die to ganks and skip glacial shroud for something more dps oriented like bruta/sheen after tear/visage. upgrade manamune and evaluate game. GA good utility item.
I've been thinking about trying something besides 9/21/0 but you are sooooo tanky with it and the cooldown mastery up the defense tree is pretty clutch.
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Im curious does trundles passive work vs yorick ghouls and if so is he counter to yorick top?
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On December 18 2011 07:08 jaybrundage wrote:
Im curious does trundles passive work vs yorick ghouls and if so is he counter to yorick top?
I would assume it does but no he is not a counter to yorick top.
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On December 18 2011 18:33 STS17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2011 07:08 jaybrundage wrote:
Im curious does trundles passive work vs yorick ghouls and if so is he counter to yorick top?
I would assume it does but no he is not a counter to yorick top.
Cho is, however (and his passive is fun vs ghouls, too)
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Nothing really counters Yorick cause he has too much sustain. As long as the Yorick is smart there's not much anyone can do to push him out of lane.
There are some champs that can lane pretty well against him, however. Off the top of my head, Cho, Maokai, and Nasus all do quite well against him.
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nasus does pretty bad vs yorick once yorick hits lvl 4-5
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On December 19 2011 02:38 dogen wrote:
nasus does pretty bad vs yorick once yorick hits lvl 4-5
Nasus does get pooped on by Yorick for the early levels. Once Nasus gets his rank 2 passive and hits around lvl 7+, he can out-sustain most of Yorick's harass. In fact, Nasus is considered among the hardest counters to Yorick 'cause you can get a crapload of Q stacks off of his ghouls.
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On December 19 2011 04:51 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 02:38 dogen wrote:
nasus does pretty bad vs yorick once yorick hits lvl 4-5 Nasus does get pooped on by Yorick for the early levels. Once Nasus gets his rank 2 passive and hits around lvl 7+, he can out-sustain most of Yorick's harass. In fact, Nasus is considered among the hardest counters to Yorick 'cause you can get a crapload of Q stacks off of his ghouls.
ya nasus one of the most annoying to lane against as yorick. rumble not too bad. nid is can sustain once she gets wriggles.
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On December 19 2011 04:51 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 02:38 dogen wrote:
nasus does pretty bad vs yorick once yorick hits lvl 4-5 Nasus does get pooped on by Yorick for the early levels. Once Nasus gets his rank 2 passive and hits around lvl 7+, he can out-sustain most of Yorick's harass. In fact, Nasus is considered among the hardest counters to Yorick 'cause you can get a crapload of Q stacks off of his ghouls.
Go ahead and get your precious Q stacks off of ghouls. You still are getting your items much later because you are missing out on CS that way while yorick is farming just fine.
Seriously, I don't understand the notion that nasus > yorick, I have never lost to one when I play that MU.
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EPT
