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On April 26 2013 09:05 101toss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 03:22 sylverfyre wrote:On April 24 2013 17:14 101toss wrote:
btw I still hate season 3 FH, the build path makes me want to kill myself when there are much better ways of itemizing armor Whaaaat? Warden's Mail is awesome on its own. Glacial shroud is fine on its own. What's there to complain about FH Buildpath? Did you forget that it used to be Glacial Cloth Cloth? Now its Glacial Cloth Cloth -> turn the 2 cloths into 1 item -> FH. It means you can viably build FH from two different directions instead of just one. Warden's mail is a fine item, but glacial feels so bad to buy though since it gives pretty much 10 cdr for 500 gold (mana crystals in general feel terrible to buy). Also, why buy FH when, for 100g more, you can get randuins, an item that offers similar dps reduction, more utility, and 500 health (granted its build path is somewhat bad, so if money is an issue locket is the go-to armor item)? Not to mention old FH was broken as shit despite the path since it gave even more season 2 armor (different penetration algorithm) for much less gold.
Frozen Heart gives the AS debuff regardless of whether someone is autoattacking you. Randuins does not. Frozen Heart gives 20% CDR, a core stat to keep up snowball chains and allowing you to basically have two different people on your team bloodboiled and grant more stupid amounts of consume healing. +400 health is cool, but Nunu has so much healing, health is a little bit devalued.
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On April 26 2013 09:43 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2013 09:05 101toss wrote:On April 25 2013 03:22 sylverfyre wrote:On April 24 2013 17:14 101toss wrote:
btw I still hate season 3 FH, the build path makes me want to kill myself when there are much better ways of itemizing armor Whaaaat? Warden's Mail is awesome on its own. Glacial shroud is fine on its own. What's there to complain about FH Buildpath? Did you forget that it used to be Glacial Cloth Cloth? Now its Glacial Cloth Cloth -> turn the 2 cloths into 1 item -> FH. It means you can viably build FH from two different directions instead of just one. Warden's mail is a fine item, but glacial feels so bad to buy though since it gives pretty much 10 cdr for 500 gold (mana crystals in general feel terrible to buy). Also, why buy FH when, for 100g more, you can get randuins, an item that offers similar dps reduction, more utility, and 500 health (granted its build path is somewhat bad, so if money is an issue locket is the go-to armor item)? Not to mention old FH was broken as shit despite the path since it gave even more season 2 armor (different penetration algorithm) for much less gold. Frozen Heart gives the AS debuff regardless of whether someone is autoattacking you. Randuins does not. Frozen Heart gives 20% CDR, a core stat to keep up snowball chains and allowing you to basically have two different people on your team bloodboiled and grant more stupid amounts of consume healing. +400 health is cool, but Nunu has so much healing, health is a little bit devalued.
Gonna list out the reasons why FH (and especially glacial shroud) is a poor choice (my original point is that there are much better ways of buying armor):
1. New pen algorithm makes armor stacking worse and buying health more efficient. This is probably the biggest reason why FH sucks in season 3 (that or the price increase) compared to other armor items.
2. Armor offers no protection vs magic damage, but health gives you well-needed surivivability against burst. This is especially important since the yeti's true weakness is getting bursted down before he can eat something.
3. You don't need all that mana. Grail and its components are enough to cover cdr and mana issues.
4. There are better, cheaper midgame alternatives. Dodge boots + armguard provide sufficient early armor while adding to sustain (effective health)/damage, whereas with glacial you get 10 cdr and some mana (mana isn't a problem in lane before chalice if you use passive properly). For 500 more gold than glacial, locket offers a non-trivial team shield, 300 health, and some regen as opposed to 300 mana (about as useful as the regen) and 10 armor. Also the glacial vs locket buildpath is no contest: kindlegem and shirt is much more useful than a chainvest and fucking MANA CRYSTAL. 10 armor vs 300 health and a shield? Obvious decision here. In fact, locket is good enough for you to just sit on that as the midgame armor item as you add in AP items. Blue pot+locket also offers 20% cdr, meaning it is a much cheaper way to achieve max cdr compared to FH (you won't even need 40 since with standard masteries you'll be at 33% which is good enough).
5. For that big armor item slot, Randuin's is better for various reasons. You could argue the AS debuff won't be those not attacking you, but considering nunu is typically best played as a tanky front liner, you will be the focus of a lot of things and in the heat of the battle, and Randuin's offers much more in these scenarios than FH would. Not to mention you don't need to pay for mana...
6. Nunu needs to buy more ap/pen to do the same amount of damage as before due to the flat pen reductions and grail nerf. Locket is over 1.1k cheaper than FH, meaning you can make great progress towards another item (you can get a bwand+blue pot, guise parts, armguard, lots of things really). You can sit on a locket for a long time and buy ap, but you definitely can't sit on a glacial shroud unless you are already ahead (I guess you should be if you are playing top nunu).
This is S3, things have changed. Sheer resistances are out, health mixed in with decent resistance numbers is in. Mana cost buffs on nunu and chalice/grail price reduction mean flat mana is painful to buy.
tl;dr: fuck mana crystals
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On April 26 2013 11:04 101toss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2013 09:43 sylverfyre wrote:On April 26 2013 09:05 101toss wrote:On April 25 2013 03:22 sylverfyre wrote:On April 24 2013 17:14 101toss wrote:
btw I still hate season 3 FH, the build path makes me want to kill myself when there are much better ways of itemizing armor Whaaaat? Warden's Mail is awesome on its own. Glacial shroud is fine on its own. What's there to complain about FH Buildpath? Did you forget that it used to be Glacial Cloth Cloth? Now its Glacial Cloth Cloth -> turn the 2 cloths into 1 item -> FH. It means you can viably build FH from two different directions instead of just one. Warden's mail is a fine item, but glacial feels so bad to buy though since it gives pretty much 10 cdr for 500 gold (mana crystals in general feel terrible to buy). Also, why buy FH when, for 100g more, you can get randuins, an item that offers similar dps reduction, more utility, and 500 health (granted its build path is somewhat bad, so if money is an issue locket is the go-to armor item)? Not to mention old FH was broken as shit despite the path since it gave even more season 2 armor (different penetration algorithm) for much less gold. Frozen Heart gives the AS debuff regardless of whether someone is autoattacking you. Randuins does not. Frozen Heart gives 20% CDR, a core stat to keep up snowball chains and allowing you to basically have two different people on your team bloodboiled and grant more stupid amounts of consume healing. +400 health is cool, but Nunu has so much healing, health is a little bit devalued. Gonna list out the reasons why FH (and especially glacial shroud) is a poor choice (my original point is that there are much better ways of buying armor): 1. New pen algorithm makes armor stacking worse and buying health more efficient. This is probably the biggest reason why FH sucks in season 3 (that or the price increase) compared to other armor items.
This is very much not true, you are misleading yourself.
Everyone seems to have latched on to the fact that armor penetration is done in a different order while simultaneously ignoring the fact that all armor penetration values were tweaked so that the end result is the same.
Armor penetration is only stronger now than in S2 if you have both flat and percentage penetration and your opponent has less than ~190 armor, and it is only stronger by a few points.
I've done the calculation before for MR, so a bit of re-use:
Take Haunting Guise, Sorcerer's Shoes and Void Staff.
S2: 20+20 Flat Pen, 40%Pen:
100 MR reduced to 60 by Flat Pen - 60 reduced to 36 by %Pen
200 MR reduced to 160 by Flat Pen - 160 reduced to 96 by %Pen
S3: 15+15 Flat Pen, 35 %Pen:
100 MR reduced to 65 by %Pen - 65 reduced to 35 by Flat Pen
200 MR reduced to 130 by %Pen - 130 reduced to 100 by Flat Pen
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On April 27 2013 00:47 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2013 11:04 101toss wrote:On April 26 2013 09:43 sylverfyre wrote:On April 26 2013 09:05 101toss wrote:On April 25 2013 03:22 sylverfyre wrote:On April 24 2013 17:14 101toss wrote:
btw I still hate season 3 FH, the build path makes me want to kill myself when there are much better ways of itemizing armor Whaaaat? Warden's Mail is awesome on its own. Glacial shroud is fine on its own. What's there to complain about FH Buildpath? Did you forget that it used to be Glacial Cloth Cloth? Now its Glacial Cloth Cloth -> turn the 2 cloths into 1 item -> FH. It means you can viably build FH from two different directions instead of just one. Warden's mail is a fine item, but glacial feels so bad to buy though since it gives pretty much 10 cdr for 500 gold (mana crystals in general feel terrible to buy). Also, why buy FH when, for 100g more, you can get randuins, an item that offers similar dps reduction, more utility, and 500 health (granted its build path is somewhat bad, so if money is an issue locket is the go-to armor item)? Not to mention old FH was broken as shit despite the path since it gave even more season 2 armor (different penetration algorithm) for much less gold. Frozen Heart gives the AS debuff regardless of whether someone is autoattacking you. Randuins does not. Frozen Heart gives 20% CDR, a core stat to keep up snowball chains and allowing you to basically have two different people on your team bloodboiled and grant more stupid amounts of consume healing. +400 health is cool, but Nunu has so much healing, health is a little bit devalued. Gonna list out the reasons why FH (and especially glacial shroud) is a poor choice (my original point is that there are much better ways of buying armor): 1. New pen algorithm makes armor stacking worse and buying health more efficient. This is probably the biggest reason why FH sucks in season 3 (that or the price increase) compared to other armor items. This is very much not true, you are misleading yourself. Everyone seems to have latched on to the fact that armor penetration is done in a different order while simultaneously ignoring the fact that all armor penetration values were tweaked so that the end result is the same. Armor penetration is only stronger now than in S2 if you have both flat and percentage penetration and your opponent has less than ~190 armor, and it is only stronger by a few points. I've done the calculation before for MR, so a bit of re-use: Take Haunting Guise, Sorcerer's Shoes and Void Staff. S2: 20+20 Flat Pen, 40%Pen: 100 MR reduced to 60 by Flat Pen - 60 reduced to 36 by %Pen 200 MR reduced to 160 by Flat Pen - 160 reduced to 96 by %Pen S3: 15+15 Flat Pen, 35 %Pen: 100 MR reduced to 65 by %Pen - 65 reduced to 35 by Flat Pen 200 MR reduced to 130 by %Pen - 130 reduced to 100 by Flat Pen
If you buy FH and tabi you'll easily exceed over 200 armor assuming nunu has 90 base armor w/ standard runes and masteries, and you'll have 0 bonus health to boot. No bulwark/aegis/taric factored in. Congratulations, you just paid more gold for fewer defensive stats (which was the point of s3 obviously).
You get better value out of multiple lower armor items (locket, dodge boots, armguard) than you do with buying a frozen heart, especially since the smaller armor items offer a lot more than just armor. Passive/cdr is nice, but randuin's is generally better anyways if you really need that armor.
Maybe if the other team had 5 borks...
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'cept FH gives CDR and the aura and more slots. Why would who just go for Seeker's unless you're aiming at some kind of midgame timing?
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FH slows the opposing team's AS by 20% and caps your CDR... it's pretty darn good in this Nunu build. Idk, you can doubt and mathcraft all you like, it's certainly been good to me in practice over a huge sample size of Nunu games.
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On April 27 2013 07:16 Mogwai wrote:
FH slows the opposing team's AS by 20% and caps your CDR... it's pretty darn good in this Nunu build. Idk, you can doubt and mathcraft all you like, it's certainly been good to me in practice over a huge sample size of Nunu games.
to each his own i suppose
i have a pretty big sample size of nunu as well with my midgame oriented build
then again you could probably build sunfire cape on top nunu and do fine by nature of the champ
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On April 27 2013 03:07 101toss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 00:47 Alzadar wrote:On April 26 2013 11:04 101toss wrote:On April 26 2013 09:43 sylverfyre wrote:On April 26 2013 09:05 101toss wrote:On April 25 2013 03:22 sylverfyre wrote:On April 24 2013 17:14 101toss wrote:
btw I still hate season 3 FH, the build path makes me want to kill myself when there are much better ways of itemizing armor Whaaaat? Warden's Mail is awesome on its own. Glacial shroud is fine on its own. What's there to complain about FH Buildpath? Did you forget that it used to be Glacial Cloth Cloth? Now its Glacial Cloth Cloth -> turn the 2 cloths into 1 item -> FH. It means you can viably build FH from two different directions instead of just one. Warden's mail is a fine item, but glacial feels so bad to buy though since it gives pretty much 10 cdr for 500 gold (mana crystals in general feel terrible to buy). Also, why buy FH when, for 100g more, you can get randuins, an item that offers similar dps reduction, more utility, and 500 health (granted its build path is somewhat bad, so if money is an issue locket is the go-to armor item)? Not to mention old FH was broken as shit despite the path since it gave even more season 2 armor (different penetration algorithm) for much less gold. Frozen Heart gives the AS debuff regardless of whether someone is autoattacking you. Randuins does not. Frozen Heart gives 20% CDR, a core stat to keep up snowball chains and allowing you to basically have two different people on your team bloodboiled and grant more stupid amounts of consume healing. +400 health is cool, but Nunu has so much healing, health is a little bit devalued. Gonna list out the reasons why FH (and especially glacial shroud) is a poor choice (my original point is that there are much better ways of buying armor): 1. New pen algorithm makes armor stacking worse and buying health more efficient. This is probably the biggest reason why FH sucks in season 3 (that or the price increase) compared to other armor items. This is very much not true, you are misleading yourself. Everyone seems to have latched on to the fact that armor penetration is done in a different order while simultaneously ignoring the fact that all armor penetration values were tweaked so that the end result is the same. Armor penetration is only stronger now than in S2 if you have both flat and percentage penetration and your opponent has less than ~190 armor, and it is only stronger by a few points. I've done the calculation before for MR, so a bit of re-use: Take Haunting Guise, Sorcerer's Shoes and Void Staff. S2: 20+20 Flat Pen, 40%Pen: 100 MR reduced to 60 by Flat Pen - 60 reduced to 36 by %Pen 200 MR reduced to 160 by Flat Pen - 160 reduced to 96 by %Pen S3: 15+15 Flat Pen, 35 %Pen: 100 MR reduced to 65 by %Pen - 65 reduced to 35 by Flat Pen 200 MR reduced to 130 by %Pen - 130 reduced to 100 by Flat Pen If you buy FH and tabi you'll easily exceed over 200 armor assuming nunu has 90 base armor w/ standard runes and masteries, and you'll have 0 bonus health to boot. No bulwark/aegis/taric factored in. Congratulations, you just paid more gold for fewer defensive stats (which was the point of s3 obviously). You get better value out of multiple lower armor items (locket, dodge boots, armguard) than you do with buying a frozen heart, especially since the smaller armor items offer a lot more than just armor. Passive/cdr is nice, but randuin's is generally better anyways if you really need that armor. Maybe if the other team had 5 borks...
You misread: once you go over ~190 armor, penetration is weaker in S3 than it was in S2.
Between Nunu having the highest base health in the game and his absurd healing from Consume, health is extremely devalued for him.
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how do u nunu top? was playing normal mirror top nunu and i got pwn bloody hard,i kept eating his iceball and when i go for cs he just bloodboil and AA me then i just die at 6 ult ignite.
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manage your passive well, hit him with mighty yeti paws harder than he hits you, get jungler help
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On April 27 2013 07:16 Mogwai wrote:
FH slows the opposing team's AS by 20% and caps your CDR... it's pretty darn good in this Nunu build. Idk, you can doubt and mathcraft all you like, it's certainly been good to me in practice over a huge sample size of Nunu games.
I think the biggest issue with Frozen heart in Season 3 is the nerf of the CDR on Glacial Shroud aswell as the overall increased cost for the item. The stats itself on Frozen heart is pretty darn good for Nunu, but with stuff like locket being released into the game i can understand that sometimes you'd rather want a build that focuses more towards the mid-game. Frozen heart screams for that late-game utility it provides with the 20% AS reduction, but it's rare to see those heavy AA-based late comps nowadays.
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Some o_O PBE changes to Nunu's Consume (which have then been rolled back, FWIW):
Nunu
Consume ( Q ) now gains bonuses for 120/150/180/210/240 seconds based on the type of creep he has consumed.
Golems - 10% maximum health and 10% size.
Lizard - Your attack deal an additional 1% of your maximum health as magic damage.
Wolves / Wraiths - 15% bonus movement speed on kill for 3 seconds.
Consume ( Q ) damage increased to 600/700/800/900/1000 from 500/600/700/800/900.
Consume ( Q ) now heals for 90/130/170/210/250 + .75 AP down from 125/180/235/290/345 + 1.0 AP.
Consume's ( Q ) cooldown has been increased to 17/15/13/11/9 from 16/14/12/10/8.
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aww that would've been fun
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On May 03 2013 11:04 nosliw wrote:
aww that would've been fun
You mean fun...or terrible.
Sucks to have to run to 2-3 jungle camps before a fight to have the stats your champ is "balanced" around.
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On May 03 2013 12:08 cLutZ wrote:You mean fun...or terrible. Sucks to have to run to 2-3 jungle camps before a fight to have the stats your champ is "balanced" around.
The duration is 120 to 240 secs, which is pretty long.
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Those changes are back, and they are GG to top nunu if they go through. That's a huge hit on sustain.
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On May 03 2013 12:08 cLutZ wrote:You mean fun...or terrible. Sucks to have to run to 2-3 jungle camps before a fight to have the stats your champ is "balanced" around.
Purple level 1 top would be retarded.
Eat small golem->eat red buff lizard-> show up to lane w/ xp advantage, free magic atma's (around 6 damage at level 1) and 60 health
seems balanced
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On May 03 2013 14:49 101toss wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 12:08 cLutZ wrote:On May 03 2013 11:04 nosliw wrote:
aww that would've been fun You mean fun...or terrible. Sucks to have to run to 2-3 jungle camps before a fight to have the stats your champ is "balanced" around. Purple level 1 top would be retarded. Eat small golem->eat red buff lizard-> show up to lane w/ xp advantage, free magic atma's (around 6 damage at level 1) and 60 health seems balanced
Reasons # 272467832 this is a bad balance design
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Mogwai how do you itemize Nunu top in season 3?
I just tried the original build yesterday but I ran into the (first world) problem of capping CDR way too easily. I want Athene's, FH and Spirit of the Spectral Wraith, which along with masteries put me at a whopping 60% cdr. Even locket has 10% CDR. Any ideas?
(For the record it was hilarious playing nunu top again. People have no idea how to deal with it, and the baron rush is so unexpected lol).
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With 9/0/21, locket and athenes you will have 40% cdr. Other items of choice can be abyssal, wota, randuin's.
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EPT
