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The Veigar discussions in this thread make me just facedesk. So I might as well chime in with some of my own ideas:
1. DFG or deathcap as first item is situational, but more and more I am going for deathcap and asking for blue. Unless the person you are laning against is retarded you are not going to kill them in one burst. They will have mr/hp runes/dorans items/catalyst. Either way you will not kill them in one burst. Deathcap gives you the ap to wear them down with q or if you have blue stun w q until they are at an hp that you can burst them down.
2. Rune properly, general runes that work well almost all the time are mpen reds, flat mana regen/level yellows, ap/level blues and flat AP quints. This gives you a lot more power and lets you win more trades while giving you flat regen which combined with your passive and boots start lets you use your skills more and still have movement speed and hp pots. If you are doing ranked you can also have a page for flat mr blues if there are going to be casters that will really give you problems.
3. Starting items should be boots 3 pots, dorans ring or null magic mantle x2 pots. Sapphire crystal if you really want catalyst, though I almost never get it, I would only get it against people like morg or sion who are going to push all day and you are going to need that extra hp and mp sustain. Otherwise, I either get chalice boots against abusive magic dmg opponents like leblanc for unlimited mana and 30 mres or I stack dorans rings. I usually get 2 or 3 dorans rings per game. This gives you the mana you need while having a lot of AP.
4. Smartcast everything except for e. Smartcast q, w, r ignite. Remember ignite has the lowest range at 600, q and r at 650. When you are killing someone stun w ignite then q and r. Part of playing veigar is knowing how much dmg you do. With practice/frequent adding up your dmg from skills you should be able to kill people within some of the last ticks of ignite. You get a feel for it.
5. Everyone says veigar doesn't win his lane and he farms q all game until he blows people up late game. That is false. I would say veigar is actually best mid game and sucks worse late game. Late game everyone has GA/Banshees/Warmogs/QSS and its a lot harder to do anything. Mid game you can q people to death if fed. Veigar doesnt win his lane because people focus too much on q farming when they could be q killing. Stacking early ap from dorans runes and 21 offense masteries can make you really win trades. The only problem with veigar, same with people like twitch is range. Lots of casters like ari brand cass ori have more range which is why you cannot just run straight up to them and q them. Get your jungler to just poke your head in lane or get early blues and with smart play you will be fine. Its mostly the sions and Morganas who push your lane all day long that are more of the problem. Remember if you can q a champion 5 times and kill them you will get 5 AP. If you 5 minions you also get 5 ap, but you could also just use your auto attack. Try to last hit minions close to you with your AA and minions far from you with your baleful to put yourself less in harms way.
6. Ward like shit, you do not want to get ganked. On the same note, know how to bait tower dives because you can get kills out of it once in a while.
7. Go 21/0/9 or 21/9/0. The new offensive masteries take veigars game to a whole new level. Also take the extra +4 dmg to minions with AA instead of havoc. Havoc sucks, but if that extra dmg helps you last hit even 1 more minion that will be better for your game, plus it helps you under your tower. Maximize ignite mastery, using ignite first in a combo (can still fire w first, dmg will be calculated at landing) gives you +5 AP which is like 10 extra dmg on your burst. Try to have at least 100-150 AP every 10 minutes.
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Baa?21243 Posts
On December 17 2011 09:06 HAL9OOO wrote:
The Veigar discussions in this thread make me just facedesk. So I might as well chime in with some of my own ideas:
1. DFG or deathcap as first item is situational, but more and more I am going for deathcap and asking for blue. Unless the person you are laning against is retarded you are not going to kill them in one burst. They will have mr/hp runes/dorans items/catalyst. Either way you will not kill them in one burst. Deathcap gives you the ap to wear them down with q or if you have blue stun w q until they are at an hp that you can burst them down.
Not situational at all always DFG never not DFG :3
3. Starting items should be boots 3 pots,yes dorans ringno or null magic mantle x2 pots.no Sapphire crystal if you really want catalyst, though I almost never get it, I would only get it against people like morg or sion who are going to push all day and you are going to need that extra hp and mp sustain. Otherwise, I either get chalice boots against abusive magic dmg opponents like leblanc for unlimited mana and 30 mres or I stack dorans rings. I usually get 2 or 3 dorans rings per game. This gives you the mana you need while having a lot of AP.
Chalice/MR sucks since Veigar is so squishy the MR isn't gonna do anything. Buy the boots and dodge shit. Chalice is still trash on Veigar, even more so now that he doesn't have mana problems.
4. Smartcast everything except for e. Smartcast q, w, r ignite. Remember ignite has the lowest range at 600, q and r at 650. When you are killing someone stun w ignite then q and r. Part of playing veigar is knowing how much dmg you do. With practice/frequent adding up your dmg from skills you should be able to kill people within some of the last ticks of ignite. You get a feel for it.
Why are you even taking ignite on Veigar? WTF -_-
7. Go 21/0/9 or 21/9/0. The new offensive masteries take veigars game to a whole new level. Also take the extra +4 dmg to minions with AA instead of havoc. Havoc sucks, but if that extra dmg helps you last hit even 1 more minion that will be better for your game, plus it helps you under your tower. Maximize ignite mastery, using ignite first in a combo (can still fire w first, dmg will be calculated at landing) gives you +5 AP which is like 10 extra dmg on your burst. Try to have at least 100-150 AP every 10 minutes.
21 Util is superior in every way, it gives everything Veigar wants. Offense is useless since you blow people up anyways you don't need extra damage.
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re: 21 util
really? i find that interesting. plz elaborate
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On December 17 2011 11:15 barbsq wrote:
re: 21 util
really? i find that interesting. plz elaborate
I'm guessing it's because as veigar you have no problem 100-0 people with dfg/r/w/q so there's no reason to grab the offense tree stuff
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and what do you get instead of ignite? I can see why it's not as good on him but I just take it by default since he's an AP mid
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On December 17 2011 11:18 starfries wrote:
and what do you get instead of ignite? I can see why it's not as good on him but I just take it by default since he's an AP mid
i would prob take TP, since veig ends up doing a lot of split pushing mid to late game
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Baa?21243 Posts
On December 17 2011 11:15 barbsq wrote:
re: 21 util
really? i find that interesting. plz elaborate
Yeah, you take Teleport. Reduced summoner's cooldown + early CDR + early mana regen, buff duration. It's all stuff that helps laning since Veigar gets very little out of defensive tree and you full to zero people without offensive tree anyways. EXP mastery also helps Veigar get past his early levels quicker.
If it wasn't for 4% CDR in offensive tree for more Q farm early I would take 0-9-21 on Veigar tbh.
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Veigar split pushing? And yes TP is a good summoner too but its really to stop people from taking your tower or assisting lanes imo not saying take ignite all the time. Plus you can 100 to 0 people with more dmg, util tree just sucks except for decreased cd. And ignite works on veigar, he is still an AP carry and ignite helps secure kills.
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Baa?21243 Posts
On December 17 2011 13:40 HAL9OOO wrote:
Veigar split pushing? And yes TP is a good summoner too but its really to stop people from taking your tower or assisting lanes imo not saying take ignite all the time. Plus you can 100 to 0 people with more dmg, util tree just sucks except for decreased cd. And ignite works on veigar, he is still an AP carry and ignite helps secure kills.
Everything here is basically wrong lol.
Veigar is an excellent split pusher since AP does massive damage to towers; TP has a lot of uses; you don't need offensie tree to 100 to 0; ignite is terrible since it has shit range and Veigar would die; Veigar can 100 to 0 without ignite; utility tree gives everything Veigar wants.
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I always like to go Tear, Catalyst, RoA/Deathcap. Longer sustain mana wise. I like to harass who I am laning against at lv 5 and try to take their hp lower so I can get a kill at 6. DFG if needed, usually end up getting it. Nice on all champs and CDR.
Flash/Teleport
Personal preference. What works for me.
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Baa?21243 Posts
On December 17 2011 14:24 Sufinsil wrote:
I always like to go Tear, Catalyst, RoA/Deathcap. Longer sustain mana wise. I like to harass who I am laning against at lv 5 and try to take their hp lower so I can get a kill at 6. DFG if needed, usually end up getting it. Nice on all champs and CDR.
Flash/Teleport
Personal preference. What works for me.
That build means you do no damage and are basically worthless ;\
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On December 17 2011 09:06 HAL9OOO wrote:
The Veigar discussions in this thread make me just facedesk. So I might as well chime in with some of my own ideas:
1. DFG or deathcap as first item is situational, but more and more I am going for deathcap and asking for blue. Unless the person you are laning against is retarded you are not going to kill them in one burst. They will have mr/hp runes/dorans items/catalyst. Either way you will not kill them in one burst. Deathcap gives you the ap to wear them down with q or if you have blue stun w q until they are at an hp that you can burst them down.
I think under the same idea, that dfg would allow you to harass someone down in the same time with the cdr and mana regen. You also have a higher cutoff can-burst-kill threshold. I still don't see how deathcap is better than deathfire.
2. Rune properly, general runes that work well almost all the time are mpen reds, flat mana regen/level yellows, ap/level blues and flat AP quints. This gives you a lot more power and lets you win more trades while giving you flat regen which combined with your passive and boots start lets you use your skills more and still have movement speed and hp pots. If you are doing ranked you can also have a page for flat mr blues if there are going to be casters that will really give you problems.
3. Starting items should be boots 3 pots, dorans ring or null magic mantle x2 pots. Sapphire crystal if you really want catalyst, though I almost never get it, I would only get it against people like morg or sion who are going to push all day and you are going to need that extra hp and mp sustain. Otherwise, I either get chalice boots against abusive magic dmg opponents like leblanc for unlimited mana and 30 mres or I stack dorans rings. I usually get 2 or 3 dorans rings per game. This gives you the mana you need while having a lot of AP.
That's smart. Beating leblanc by getting a lot of MR. I'm thinking she could still wear you down a little though unless you got either health pots or health regen. Is it ever a good idea to go FoN first vs Leblanc?
4. Smartcast everything except for e. Smartcast q, w, r ignite. Remember ignite has the lowest range at 600, q and r at 650. When you are killing someone stun w ignite then q and r. Part of playing veigar is knowing how much dmg you do. With practice/frequent adding up your dmg from skills you should be able to kill people within some of the last ticks of ignite. You get a feel for it.
but it's so hard to learn new stuff QQ. Btw there's a way to turn preference onto champions when smartcasting so if you miss, you hit a champion.
5. Everyone says veigar doesn't win his lane and he farms q all game until he blows people up late game. That is false. I would say veigar is actually best mid game and sucks worse late game. Late game everyone has GA/Banshees/Warmogs/QSS and its a lot harder to do anything. Mid game you can q people to death if fed. Veigar doesnt win his lane because people focus too much on q farming when they could be q killing. Stacking early ap from dorans runes and 21 offense masteries can make you really win trades. The only problem with veigar, same with people like twitch is range. Lots of casters like ari brand cass ori have more range which is why you cannot just run straight up to them and q them. Get your jungler to just poke your head in lane or get early blues and with smart play you will be fine. Its mostly the sions and Morganas who push your lane all day long that are more of the problem. Remember if you can q a champion 5 times and kill them you will get 5 AP. If you 5 minions you also get 5 ap, but you could also just use your auto attack. Try to last hit minions close to you with your AA and minions far from you with your baleful to put yourself less in harms way.
thanks for the tips. I don't get why you say to baleful the far minions though, you are ranged so isn't it better to just q whenever necessary, not what gives you like less than 100 more range?
6. Ward like shit, you do not want to get ganked. On the same note, know how to bait tower dives because you can get kills out of it once in a while.
7. Go 21/0/9 or 21/9/0. The new offensive masteries take veigars game to a whole new level. Also take the extra +4 dmg to minions with AA instead of havoc. Havoc sucks, but if that extra dmg helps you last hit even 1 more minion that will be better for your game, plus it helps you under your tower. Maximize ignite mastery, using ignite first in a combo (can still fire w first, dmg will be calculated at landing) gives you +5 AP which is like 10 extra dmg on your burst. Try to have at least 100-150 AP every 10 minutes.
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On December 17 2011 12:33 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 11:15 barbsq wrote:
re: 21 util
really? i find that interesting. plz elaborate Yeah, you take Teleport. Reduced summoner's cooldown + early CDR + early mana regen, buff duration. It's all stuff that helps laning since Veigar gets very little out of defensive tree and you full to zero people without offensive tree anyways. EXP mastery also helps Veigar get past his early levels quicker. If it wasn't for 4% CDR in offensive tree for more Q farm early I would take 0-9-21 on Veigar tbh.
so would you take spell vamp + sage or movespeed,
these are the two trees i came up with for reference
+ Show Spoiler +
i guess theoretically gold masteries are an option, but then you start digging into other things, specifically the xp and cdr, which doesn't seem worth it.
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What are your guy's thoughts on botlane Veigar replacing the ranged ad? From what I have seen, levels 1-4 are a bit rough, and you get zoned a bit at times, but once you hit 6 the enemy ranged ad has a lot of trouble if they get too close.
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Baa?21243 Posts
^This one. So movespeed. In fact this is the exact one I use. 3% spellvamp is pretty meh. Sage is pretty meh.
Veigar sucks in bot lane just cause he's squishy, 1-4 lasts longer which is his weak point, and two people can dish out damage faster than 1 person so you get zoned more. Also bot is longer than mid so you don't even get exp if things are going poorly. Veigar can't trade AAs with range ADs. Also Veigar wants levels.
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jiji rushing DFG on veigar. Win. :>
As for masteries...I dunno. I really like the offense tree way too much. D:
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Baa?21243 Posts
On December 17 2011 20:28 BlackPaladin wrote:
jiji rushing DFG on veigar. Win. :>
As for masteries...I dunno. I really like the offense tree way too much. D:
I think the offensive tree could be good for some situations.
If you have an easy lane but the other 4 champs on the enemy team poses a huge threat to you, then you can get away with offensive masteries in lane without the help from utility tree, but then you itemize more defensively (dfg/void/merc/hourglass/other survivability; basically dont invest in hat) and hope that the extra boost from offensive tree can help you do enough damage to kill people. I played a game earlier with DFG/hourglass/merc and utility tree and just couldn't do enough damage. Offensive tree def. would've helped there.
I still think key here is the easy lane part. Despite the buffs, lane bullies still give Veigar a super hard time and utility tree is needed to mitigate that.
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I don't think offense is good if you build defensive anyways. I mean the biggest reason to go for offense is the 5% AP and if you have little AP anyways it's not that good.
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Baa?21243 Posts
Err, the 5% AP is OK, but it's also for the 21st point extra % damage to low hp targets and Havoc. That actually does give you a good boost in damage. It's just all the little boost sin AP/damage adding up over the whole tree for that extra 150 damage or so.
Again, it's not significant, but sometimes it could be all right. I still go utility tree almost always anyways, but I'm just trying to think of when I would use offense.
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About deathcap vs. dfg, think about it this way. Deathcap is the item every single AP gets because it gives tons of AP and gives you this awesome passive that scales with more AP. Veigar gains AP naturally, by the time you get your deathcap you get a massive power boost. Your jungler should be giving you blue buffs. You can stack the 2 dorans rings for mana and more ap than codex. You get AP for q farm and AP for champ kills so you just see which one would be more effective. Also going into offense gives you more AP, and the 5% extra AP is a big deal. Doing extra dmg to low health targets is like what veigar does, it makes his DM or last q do more dmg. I dont take havoc, cause that is a shit mastery i take the +4 dmg to minions for the times you might have to last hit under towers. Utility is just the worst mastery right now, it has some good perks but for a nuker 21/x/x def seems better.
Just try going 21/0/9 starting boots 3 pots and rushing 2 dorans rings and wards/pots. You can pretty much always get a kill either mid or ganking a side lane or even a jungler at their wraiths with your ward. Try to watch when people go for last hits and tag them with 1 or 2 q's. If you have blue buff you can just harass with your stun w q. If you take ignite, make sure to cast it right after you stun and w them. Then q and r.
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EPT
