EPT[Champion] Swain - Page 6
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
Put people at the range where they're weakest. Kite melees and stand next to ranged. Flash-QEWignite does so much damage, it's pretty dumb. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
I could always last hit under tower but then she'd just zone me. That range felt kinda unfair, plus the 5ms advantage meaning I could never harass her (except when hitting W for obscenes amount of mana per trade, still less efficient than hers due to runes). | ||
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Hyren
United States817 Posts
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21244 Posts
I mean Tear is not -awful- inherently, it just opens you up to so much abuse in lane since it gives you no sustain and no damage and no survivability. On January 25 2012 10:54 Alaric wrote: I guess it's something to be expected, but just to make sure: is Swain supposed to lose to Annie? Had one that started with boots, runes for 35 AP, same movespeed (362 vs 367, she somehow always managed to catch up, really frustrating when even with 10+ advantage I sometimes can't seem to get to people) so she'd just cast a max range Q, possibly W if she had her stun, then just go back before I could retaliate with auto-attacks or even use Q. I could always last hit under tower but then she'd just zone me. That range felt kinda unfair, plus the 5ms advantage meaning I could never harass her (except when hitting W for obscenes amount of mana per trade, still less efficient than hers due to runes). Lead with W, if it hits follow up and you will always outtrade with your full combo against QW. When Tibbers is a factor just make sure you can't get bursted from full. Invest in MR early if it seems like it's gonna be an issue. W range is long enough that Annie shouldn't realistically be able to do much, and if she is being super aggro, just land a W. Annie is real squishy early bully her around a bit. | ||
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Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
I don't like RoA on Swain, and will usually do Cata -> DCap & Zhonya then upgrade to a BVeil. Swain vs Annie isn't something Swain is gonna win, but it's not something he should lose either. Play defensive, max E W, take trades if you can land EW, threaten her if her stun is down an try and swing the lane with some jungle help. Remember, Annie has to stop you from farming. You just have to stop her from getting super fed and minimize her ganking ability. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21244 Posts
1-6 might be kinda rough but you should still be able to farm and if she gets super up in your face you can still dish out good damage and trade evenly/threaten kills if she's stupidly aggro. annie is squishy if she wants to do any damage. | ||
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b0lt
United States790 Posts
On January 25 2012 12:42 Hyren wrote: I have a friend who swears by Tears -> Archangel Staff over Catalyst -> RoA. Is he full of crap or does his core build hold some merit? Archangels is a terrible item. It's less cost effective than buying a tear and then just buying an NLR, when your tear is less than something like 3/4 charged. | ||
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Cloud9157
United States2968 Posts
I get mage pen, +30 health, and +3% spell vamp. Anyone have some thoughts on this? I've gone 21/9 pretty much every time on Swain, but I figured I would mess around a little bit. | ||
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Malderon
Netherlands136 Posts
If an AP carry such as Malzahar or Brand pushes the lane towards your turret, you're stuck with last-hitting with your auto attack. Simply practise last hitting under said turret while having your jungler gank your eager-to-push opponent? Edit: In a pinch, I suppose Nevermove + a few seconds of ultimate can also help out a good deal already | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
On February 08 2012 17:58 Cloud9157 wrote: Experimenting with a 9/9/12 build with Swain. I get mage pen, +30 health, and +3% spell vamp. Anyone have some thoughts on this? I've gone 21/9 pretty much every time on Swain, but I figured I would mess around a little bit. I think offensive tree is too good to pass up. But I think that Swain is a weird exception where alternative masteries and runepages that take away from his offense can work. On February 09 2012 01:40 Malderon wrote: How do you folks deal with his lackluster ability to push the lane without his ult? If an AP carry such as Malzahar or Brand pushes the lane towards your turret, you're stuck with last-hitting with your auto attack. Simply practise last hitting under said turret while having your jungler gank your eager-to-push opponent? Edit: In a pinch, I suppose Nevermove + a few seconds of ultimate can also help out a good deal already One of Swain's weaknesses is how he can't handle strong pushers very well. Even when he has his ult he struggles pushing back against a Malz, Morg, or other strong pushers. But yeah, if someone is pushing hard to your tower then your jungler should come for a gank. Just make sure you call mia if they leave 'cause lots of people will push to your tower and then leave to gank. Last hitting as Swain is easy imo, I like his auto attack animation. Just remember it's two tower hits for melee minions and one tower hit for mages. | ||
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Cloud9157
United States2968 Posts
On February 09 2012 01:40 Malderon wrote: How do you folks deal with his lackluster ability to push the lane without his ult? If an AP carry such as Malzahar or Brand pushes the lane towards your turret, you're stuck with last-hitting with your auto attack. Simply practise last hitting under said turret while having your jungler gank your eager-to-push opponent? Edit: In a pinch, I suppose Nevermove + a few seconds of ultimate can also help out a good deal already W+ult are really all he has to push a lane. If I see that a lane is going to be pushed towards my tower, I try to get at least the caster minions set to last hit. Hit them once and then hit them again after a turret shot. Melee minions are a little bit harder. Hopefully you last hit all of them before you get pushed, but if not, try to use E/Q to last hit them. Its pretty hard since both skills are dot, but I've found myself killing a minion with Q before. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On January 25 2012 12:42 Hyren wrote: I have a friend who swears by Tears -> Archangel Staff over Catalyst -> RoA. Is he full of crap or does his core build hold some merit? Swain needs the health from ROA. Getting tears early on Swain is stupid because he has a terribly weak early game to begin with, so vulnerability that occurs from getting tears only amplifies. Swain does need a ton of mana but you should be getting blue buff 24/7, but even in the case you don't catalyst is better than tear for the health alone, which Swain begs for. ROA isn't good on a lot of champs because they don't make use of all of the stats it gives, but Swain is one of the champs that is in dire need of every single stat it gives. It's just too good on Swain to pass up. | ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
RoA, Rylai's, Zhonya's are all better than Deathcap (Archangel shouldn't even be in his final build) | ||
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danana
United States321 Posts
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57 Corvette
Canada5941 Posts
I had a bit of trouble pre-6 since he has strong harrass and area control, but I couldn't tell if it was the character or just me being rusty | ||
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Malderon
Netherlands136 Posts
I can imagine however that it makes it easier to keep up with a fleeing enemy whilst your ravens (Q and Ult) eat away at them, I am just wondering if it is worth it? | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
On February 09 2012 07:18 NeoIllusions wrote: Swain is an AP Bruiser. You don't build him glass cannon like you do most AP that go mid. He shines in Top Lane for a reason. RoA, Rylai's, Zhonya's are all better than Deathcap (Archangel shouldn't even be in his final build) Most Dcap+Zhonya's build go straight tanky after those two items though. If you go RoA+Rylai's+Zhonya's then you're not going to be as tanky as a Swain building Dcap+Zhonya's who then goes straight tank. You also will be getting very little additional AP with a build of those three items. For 6700 gold you're getting 312 AP and 50 armor with Dcap+Zhonya's. For 9240 gold you're getting 1130 HP, 260 AP, and 50 armor with RoA+Rylai's+Zhonya's. While the health boost is significant you're going to get cata and build that into Bveil if you don't go a RoA path. So with a Dcap+Zhonya's build you're going to end up later in the game with more damage and be tankier as you're going to have more resistances and you'll be getting them quicker than if you built all three of those items. If you just build two of those three that you mentioned then I'd probably go with RoA+Zhonya's because Rylai's effect isn't that great on Swain and for the cost I'd rather just build a defensive item. I don't think anyone is advocating building him like a glass cannon but I think that cata -> Dcap -> Zhonya's -> tank items is probably the strongest build that he has because you're going to be getting resists a lot faster which is, imo, a lot better than health on Swain. I think RoA -> Zhonya's or Rylai's can work but you're gonna end up doing less damage (and honestly the active on Zhonya's is way more useful than the Rylai's imo). I think the biggest factor in making the choice between the two paths is whether you're mid or top. If I'm having to mid as Swain I'll usually go Dcap after cata but in top lane I think it's significantly better to get more tanky items sooner because you already have a squishy mage who's mid. So like, solo top going RoA first and then some sort of tanky item (maybe just a Glacial Shroud or a Negatron) makes a lot more sense. But I'm in no way a pro at Swain, just saying that I don't think you absolutely have to build RoA or Rylai's on him. edit: Also, maybe I'm just being a fanboy, but I really think that Swain might be one of the strongest AP picks a team can make. You get someone who shits on melee champions and most teams are gonna have at least two of those. You get an AP carry that does significant damage albeit not quite as much as others. You get a champion who can tank damage and sit in the middle of the enemy team effectively zoning the enemy carry at times. So my question is, why don't more people play him? Am I just biased and think that he's a lot better than he is or does he suffer from the Anivia problem where you're reliant on your team and there are other APs who can carry harder in solo queue? I don't find him to be particularly difficult to play so I'm at a loss for how underplayed he seems. | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On February 09 2012 08:04 Malderon wrote: With W being a root and Lazerbird being a slow, isn't the slow on Rylais kind of wasted? Feels like either Spirit Visage + NLR, Abyssal Scepter or Zhonya's would be more useful if you want to be more sturdy and get AP, for roughly the same amount of money. I can imagine however that it makes it easier to keep up with a fleeing enemy whilst your ravens (Q and Ult) eat away at them, I am just wondering if it is worth it? sick aoe slow in teamfights + tankiness is the reason you get it i think(aoe slow off ult) | ||
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