EPT[Champion] Swain - Page 8
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Of the top of my head, that leaves: - Blitzcrank (skillshot) - Mundo (skillshot) - Garen - Lee Sin (kinda) - Malphite - Nasus - Nautilus (skillshot, depends if you count Dredge Line on terrain as a gap closer) - Renekton (he's got a double gap closer but I heard Swain crushes him, because his range still beats Croc's E I guess?) - Singed - Shyvana - Sion - Skarner - Trundle - Udyr - Volibear Hm... written like that, that's quite a lot. But there's a lot of them that we don't see top or that aren't popular at the moment, so... | ||
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Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
So here are some lanes I remember: Garen (a while ago) beat me pretty hard. He ran at me with Decisive Strike and Judgemented as soon as I Lazerbirded him. Courage and his passive meant that even EQ didn't outtrade him. However I think QW, possibly EW, could at least tie the lane. (Haven't seen a Garen in a long time though.) Wukong lost to me 3 times out of 3. It was a little hairy early but my EQ traded very closely with his EQ even at level 2. At level 4 he only outtraded me if I didn't react fast enough to his dash to EQ him before he went invisible. At level 6, he can kill you if you aren't careful but if he goes in on you and doesn't kill you you are almost guaranteed to come out ahead. Mundo I've played from the other side, and it's basically a stalemate that usually ends up at Mundo's tower, where he just last hits. Not sure which is scarier with farm. Swain gets free farm and Mundo gets close, depending on his cleaver skills. Singed never gets near creeps. Nasus never gets near creeps. The one time I laned against Shyvana I got totally dunked. No idea what black voodoo magics she was working, but she could just run right up to me with burnout on, even through lazerbird slow, and auto-q me for stupid stupid amounts of damage. By the time we reached 6 I was down two kills and it was already over. I need to play this one out against someone to see if it was a fluke, I played it badly, or what. I think leveling W>Q and ignoring E would let me tie the lane at least. Sion is dumb but unless you play it badly you should win. You can either stop him from farming or damage him, but he gets to decide when he wants to pop his shield and it might be that he can Malphite maxing Q gets no farm but starts to bully you around level 5. The only GP I remember facing, I traded Torment for Parrrley quite comfortably. I was running armor on everything except reds, though and I don't know what he was running for runes. I suspect it was crit reds and he only got one crit in lane. Gamble and sometimes you lose. Olaf loses to you pretty hard. He's not gonna land enough axes to make up for EQ if he ever gets close to creeps. At level 6 he can be a threat but he should be pretty behind by then and your ult should keep you alive until Ragnarok wears off. Udyr can easily turtle off any damage you can do to him, but there's no way he can get close to you, even with bear stance. You're scarier with farm, so just get as many creeps as you can and try not to get ganked. People that I've lost to are Nidalee (of course) and Ryze. Haven't played any Rumbles or Yoricks that I remember. But yeah. Swain beats at least 90% of top lanes, scales super hard off farm, and is one of the few that can 1v2 jungle ganks if the jungler is scrub or the laner is like half health. Theorycraft against some of the others you mentioned: Nautilus shouldn't be able to tickle you. Blitz, even if he lands a grab, probably gets outtraded by EQ. Skarner no chance. Volibear no chance. Lee Sin could go either way. I'd need to play it out a few times. He'd have a hard time farming, since you can just autoattack harass. He'd definitely fare better than most others though. Trundle no chance. Renekton I can see doing well. EWQE probably trades well with lazerbird and he has no mana to worry about. He's still guaranteed to eat almost a full EQ though, so who knows. So yeah. The real threat to Swain is jungle ganks. Buy. LOTS. of. wards. | ||
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ManyCookies
1164 Posts
I've always been rather iffy on what to build after ROA. I usually build Tanky AP against the main damage threat, meaning Hourglass or Abyssal Scepter. Then I sometimes build WoTA, sometimes don't, sometimes get the other Tanky AP item, sometimes don't, etc. I've never really tried Deathcap in a non-stomp game, though I don't see why it couldn't be good. I'd say I'm situationally adapting to the current game phase, but really I'm just building what sounds decent at the time. Any suggestions? | ||
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Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
Quicksilver Sash is better than Abyssal IMO. Unless a significant fraction of their team has low MR or a significant fraction of your team does magic damage or their team has no ignites or low cc, QSS is very good for guaranteed ult-zhonya with full healing. Deathcap is a huge boost to your power and thus, indirectly, to your survivability. I'm a big fan of glass cannon swain, on account of how not actually glass cannon it is. Try and get someone else on your team to pick up WotA if possible. Archangels gets a lot of crap for being a noob trap but it's not a bad buy as a fourth or fifth item on Swain. You can actually use that mana pool, for one. It also boosts how much blue regenerates on you, making your ult last exponentially longer. Definitely don't rush it, though. My opinion on Swain, as you may have noticed, is that you're tanky ap regardless of how you build, so you might as well build glass cannon. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
 As good as Abyssal looks on him, I'd get QSS every game too, if only to cut off that nasty ignite. Against physical lanes, going catalyst->chain vest->zhonya looks really safe, but you don't have a whole lot of damage. I couldn't probably try that unless I got fed or end up in a free farm lane. I really like the catalyst for the early sustain and bonus HP tho, even if he benefits more from resists. From what I remember from some calculations, Rabaddon's actually better than WotA when it comes to how much more healing it gives through his ult. I'd need to redo it since it doesn't take the cost difference into account, nor the fact that WotA works on his other skills, and that it was with Rabaddon/WotA as only source of AP. Guess I need to go back to the drawing board and practice to learn how to trade properly with him. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
I think Swain is quickly becoming one of my favourite champions to play. | ||
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ManyCookies
1164 Posts
Played 5 games with Swain today, sold on a 2nd or 3rd item Deathcap. Zhyona's really is enough for most threats mid-lateish game. From what I remember from some calculations, Rabaddon's actually better than WotA when it comes to how much more healing it gives through his ult. I'd need to redo it since it doesn't take the cost difference into account, nor the fact that WotA works on his other skills, and that it was with Rabaddon/WotA as only source of AP. Well, Rabadadohicky's gives an additional 36 + (6% other AP) damage on your ult, which is a total healing factor of .75*[86/106/126 + (.26/AP)] . WoTA gives an additional 16 damage on the Ult, plus an extra 20% healing, so that's .95*[66/86/106 + (.2/AP)]. A casual glance reveals that the two will converge somewhere in the thousands of AP, the latter being ahead for a while. DOesn't prove anything about the viability at all, but healing wise, WoTA does beat out DC. | ||
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Silverfoxx
United States184 Posts
99/100 times I start boots 3 pots, but that's mostly habit. Immediate first item is roa in any situation. Wota is usually my second for how cheap it is and how much it benefits swain. third is extremely situational between roa, hourglass, deathcap, and abyssal scepter, depending on whos on my team, how we are doing, what the enemy team is made of, etc. etc. generally finish a game with roa, wota, merc treads (silly, I know, but i like the MR for laning and they're never BAD just not GREAT.) and scepter, most don't last longer than that. May just be me though, I like getting that early game advantage and pushing it harder and harder. | ||
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ManyCookies
1164 Posts
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On March 14 2012 04:41 ManyCookies wrote: What skill do people start out with? I used to always get W first because of the security and leash strength, but I've been playing with E->Q->W. It's easier to trade with, and the threat of an EQ at level 2 is rather nice. Still EQEWER, R > E > Q > W I don't see any scenario why to deviate from the above. Not only is first skill W bad for mid lane, E still does more damage as a leash. | ||
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ManyCookies
1164 Posts
On March 14 2012 04:47 NeoIllusions wrote: Still EQEWER, R > E > Q > W I don't see any scenario why to deviate from the above. Not only is first skill W bad for mid lane, E still does more damage as a leash. Wow really? Shit, why did I think everyone started W first. (Although the extra damage is pretty marginal, and W holds Blue for an extra 2 seconds, which is nice if your jungler can't kill Blue before it turns, and damages the minions). | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
W also speeds up wave clearing past the laning phase. | ||
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Cloud9157
United States2968 Posts
Though you should consider taking W first if your team plans on invading. Potential 5 man snare = too good. Now I've been wondering about 2 matchups: Top vs Fiora. I honestly hate this bitch. She has her gap closer for you and just does so much damage. Anyone have experience/suggestions? Next is vs Kassadin. Honestly, I always picked Swain whenever I saw Kassadin mid back in November(i think) when he was fotm. Swain gets to do what most APs do against Kass and then more. He wins trades early if he gets E+Q off with some AAs, giving him an advantage early. Problem with pretty much every AP vs Kass though is that he starts destroying them post 6. Honestly, I think Swain can deal with him because of how tanky he is and if you just turn on ult when you see him teleport in, he should really never kill you. | ||
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TheKefka
Croatia11752 Posts
And I disagree about playing swain aggressive before lvl 3 or 4 when you can get your combo off.You just risk getting killed for no reason. | ||
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petered
United States1817 Posts
On March 16 2012 09:50 Cloud9157 wrote: I think starting E first and trading with it whenever you can is the best way to play Swain. Throw in some AAs with it and Q at lvl 2. Though you should consider taking W first if your team plans on invading. Potential 5 man snare = too good. Now I've been wondering about 2 matchups: Top vs Fiora. I honestly hate this bitch. She has her gap closer for you and just does so much damage. Anyone have experience/suggestions? Next is vs Kassadin. Honestly, I always picked Swain whenever I saw Kassadin mid back in November(i think) when he was fotm. Swain gets to do what most APs do against Kass and then more. He wins trades early if he gets E+Q off with some AAs, giving him an advantage early. Problem with pretty much every AP vs Kass though is that he starts destroying them post 6. Honestly, I think Swain can deal with him because of how tanky he is and if you just turn on ult when you see him teleport in, he should really never kill you. Can't remember if I have played vs Fiora or not, but i would personally never use q until she jumps you. If you get caught with q down when she jumps, then you are probably dying pre-6. Same story with w, her speed boost will let her dodge easily. Save if for when she dashes the second time to get her off your nuts. For harass e+autos is plenty of damage and keeps you much safer. My biggest mistakes when playing swain top come when I get too aggressive pre 6 and miss my w, then they jump me and lay down a lot of damage. Edit: I never take swain mid since his I think his range is too short and he uses a ton of mana to clear, so no advice there. | ||
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Cloud9157
United States2968 Posts
So pretty much Cassio Malz, Morgana, and Brand are some of his worst matchups. I picked him vs Karthusan demolished him, but Karthus is such a squishy little guy. | ||
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On March 14 2012 05:17 koreasilver wrote: I open E - Q - W, but after that I prefer to level R > E > W > Q. The main reason for this is because leveling W lowers its cooldown while Q remains the same, so when those fights begin to erupt past the laning phase, I find that higher levels of W just help more than higher levels of Q. At level 2 having Q is better than W for the "guaranteed" damage and slow, which helps your laning and your jungler in a conservative way, but I'd rather start leveling W over Q at lvl 8 and 10 because larger scale fights will occur more and more from then on, and I'd much rather have a lvl 2+ W over a lvl 2+ Q. W also speeds up wave clearing past the laning phase. I used to do the same til i realized that by favoring q after e i dint need a second w in teamfights lol cdr is nice but you dont need the extra damage to help push. you can clear a wave nice and quick post 6 and the danage difference in lane is v noticable if yiu dont max q second i type this on my phone | ||
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ManyCookies
1164 Posts
On March 16 2012 10:26 Cloud9157 wrote: Swain can do mid fine against most mages, but the ones that hurt him the most are shovers and people with absurd range. So pretty much Cassio Malz, Morgana, and Brand are some of his worst matchups. I picked him vs Karthusan demolished him, but Karthus is such a squishy little guy. The ones I've had real trouble with are Cass, LeBlonk and non-retarded Morganas and Fizzes ("I'ma start Dorans!"). Brand/Malz/Kat were about even, generally lost by who made the first mistake or was successfully ganked. That could have been the players behind them though. That said, when a mid has a bad matchup against Swain, it tends to be a really fucking awful matchup against Swain. And Swain snowballs incredibly hard against mids; he becomes untradable and ungankable, still does as much damage as a normal AP (over a longer interval), and unlike against most Top laners Swain can shut down farming pretty damn hard. | ||
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Cloud9157
United States2968 Posts
On March 16 2012 15:02 ManyCookies wrote: The ones I've had real trouble with are Cass, LeBlonk and non-retarded Morganas and Fizzes ("I'ma start Dorans!"). Brand/Malz/Kat were about even, generally lost by who made the first mistake or was successfully ganked. That could have been the players behind them though. That said, when a mid has a bad matchup against Swain, it tends to be a really fucking awful matchup against Swain. And Swain snowballs incredibly hard against mids; he becomes untradable and ungankable, still does as much damage as a normal AP (over a longer interval), and unlike against most Top laners Swain can shut down farming pretty damn hard. I'm sure LB is a pretty bad MU (like she is for pretty much everyone) but I just seem to always live her burst as Swain, barely at times. She is pretty much on a timer to beat Swain, since if he gets to level ~10 he will be too tanky and just heal up her damage, probably even be able to kill her. | ||
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