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Heimerdinger, the revered inventor
Heimer is a good pusher, good AoE damage dealer, good farmer, and very hard to gank/chase. You are not going to win teamfights on your own, but you can contribute.
Other Guides
Summoner spells: ghost/flash. Non-negotiable.
Masteries: 9 7 14. You could move points from offense into utility if you prefer.
Runes:
Quints: Flat HP or Magic Pen
Red: Magic Pen
Yellow: Mana per 5 per Level
Blue: Mana per 5 per Level
Skill Order: QWWEWR then W > R > Q > E -OR-, if you're getting fed, W > E > R > Q.
Item Build: Meki Pendant + Mana Pot + Health Pot (aggro) -OR- Doran's Ring + Mana Pot (passive) => Tear of the Goddess => Sorc Boots => Archangel's Staff => Zhonya's Ring. After this, play it by ear. More AP is the generic choice (void staff, RoA), but Rylai's, Abyssal, Guardian Angel, and Banshee's Veil are other options (Rylai's for anti-melee, Abyssal for anti-caster, GA for anti-carry, Veil for anti-cc).
Playstyle
Opening: Open with the passive items against a hard lane (usually Miss Fortune), and the aggro items against a soft lane (most opponents). The former option's additional life can be a big deal in tough matchups. Prefer middle lane, then solo top, then 1v2 top, then 2v2 bottom. Drop a turret about where your mage creeps will end up for the first wave ASAP. This is why you open turret: your mana will be regenerated by wave 1.
Early game: Focus on last hitting. Poking enemies with your wrench is great -- it has good range/damage for a caster attack. Skill order after Q at level 1 is WWEWR. Any time there are less than 3 opposing minions around, get in rocket range of the enemy champion(s) and use it -- it's great harass. Of course, you'll want to set this up in advance -- often when the melee creeps of a wave are dead and the ranged creeps being beating on each other you can sneak into position without the opponent noticing. Don't forget that someone low backing near their turret can be flashed onto, rocketed/grenaded to death, and then ghosted away from. On your first back, buy tear and boots. If you have spare money, buy wards. If the game is still stable, go grab golem before returning to lane. Golem buff is hugely powerful on Heimer. Your ult, once you have it, is used as it is throughout the game -- to save you from ganks. See below for more on this.
Chasing: Your summoner spells are all you've got. If someone is low, you may be able to ghost up to them, flash to them as they flee, and rocket them to death. It's very hard to land E on a running opponent from anything but point blank. If they don't see you coming, drop a turret on them and use your ultimate.
Being chased: Drop a turret, use your ultimate. As they go by it and are slowed, E them (easier to aim when they're slow and chasing you). Use your W, and KEEP RUNNING. They may be low, but there's nothing you can do now. Stay and they'll likely kill you. If they keep chasing, repeat this combo (though without your ult, it's harder to land E's stun) -- you'll usually get a kill. If there are multiple chasers, or they've evaded your E/R, use your summoner spells. Once in a blue moon, someone will survive the first combo, but be very low, and not run away. If you have your zhonya's up, you can sometimes lure them to your turret, then zhonya's, and let it finish them.
Team fighting: You have to make your skills count. Try to drop a turret where it can beat on someone. If they come after you, treat it as being chased (ult, E, W). If your opponents have a stationary power ult (Galio, Nunu, Kat), save your E -- you probably only get one per battle, so it has to count. Use rockets if there's a chance of hitting a squishy -- even hitting tanks with it will take a chunk off them, which isn't worthless, and this is the skill you're most likely to get to use twice. If there's no reason to save E, try to land it on a DPS carry -- even if you miss the stun, the blind on a DPS is a big deal. Finally, note that saving an ally leaving the fight and being chased is just like being chased yourself, and E is a great tool there. Typically, your ultimate is not worth using in team fights outside of the mid-fight and post-fight chasing scenarios. The exception is if you have a well placed turret beating on the other team, especially their squishies, but taking AoE and getting low -- using your ult to revitalize it can keep it outputting DPS
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United States47024 Posts
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Is Heimer still any good? I used to do really well with heimer until the 2 turret nerf.
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When the buff to turret AI is released, it should be good to get two points in turrets since your ult lets them prefer champions and getting two slows off is better then one.
If you insist on the 1 turret build I've found it's better to forgo R at level 6 in favor of another point in grenade, between masteries runes and blue buff you are close to max CDR already so missing the 10% isn't too huge and at this level the slow isn't huge for getting out of a gank since flash and ghost should be sufficient.
You should prefer solo top to mid since it's harder to gank you meaning you can farm your zhonyas faster.
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Hm, I thought that buff to turret AI hadn't gone through yet.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 10 2010 16:01 Jaksiel wrote:
Hm, I thought that buff to turret AI hadn't gone through yet.
IIRC it wasn't in the patch notes, so unless they chose not to mention it, it still hasn't gone through. Dan Dinh also said that he hasn't noticed the AI change, and he's played enough Heimer post-patch to have noticed if it went through.
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On November 10 2010 15:18 STS17 wrote:
Given the recent buff to turret AI, it is now good to get two points in turrets since your ult lets them prefer champions and getting two slows off is better then one.
If you insist on the 1 turret build I've found it's better to forgo R at level 6 in favor of another point in grenade, between masteries runes and blue buff you are close to max CDR already so missing the 10% isn't too huge and at this level the slow isn't huge for getting out of a gank since flash and ghost should be sufficient.
You should prefer solo top to mid since it's harder to gank you meaning you can farm your zhonyas faster.
Wha...?
If the other team is letting you get golem uncontested by level 6, well, great, but I wouldn't worry too much: you're pretty much going to win.
Slow is still helpful. It can save your summoners for escaping after a gank, or slow the enemy so a teammate can catch up (since Heimer isn't super-bursty, this is a big deal).
Solo top is easier to get ganked on. There's more brush, it's closer to the lane, the distance from tower to creeps is longer, and the lane is further from the rest of the map.This is why I go solo mid...
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On November 10 2010 22:47 oberon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 15:18 STS17 wrote:
Given the recent buff to turret AI, it is now good to get two points in turrets since your ult lets them prefer champions and getting two slows off is better then one.
If you insist on the 1 turret build I've found it's better to forgo R at level 6 in favor of another point in grenade, between masteries runes and blue buff you are close to max CDR already so missing the 10% isn't too huge and at this level the slow isn't huge for getting out of a gank since flash and ghost should be sufficient.
You should prefer solo top to mid since it's harder to gank you meaning you can farm your zhonyas faster. Wha...? If the other team is letting you get golem uncontested by level 6, well, great, but I wouldn't worry too much: you're pretty much going to win. Slow is still helpful. It can save your summoners for escaping after a gank, or slow the enemy so a teammate can catch up (since Heimer isn't super-bursty, this is a big deal). Solo top is easier to get ganked on. There's more brush, it's closer to the lane, the distance from tower to creeps is longer, and the lane is further from the rest of the map.This is why I go solo mid...
I typically get blue at 5, though I don't play against the highest caliber of players, but if your jungler passes it off to you such that you only need to hit it with an auto-attack or rocket it's easy (and quick) to get at those levels.
Easier to get ganked top? There is more brush? There is one way into the lane (river) opposed to 4 (both river brushes and the side ways on your side) which need to be covered. Note: When I say # of ways in I mean number of ways which you don't expect enemies to come in from (i.e. you should expect enemies to be coming from the direction their tower is in).
Ok so there is the two top bushes as well but you shouldn't be pushing past them until you have zhonya's and/or blue anyways because you're alone and past them means past river means you're extremely vulnerable. You don't need to siege their tower as soon as possible, just chill and farm for a while then begin super pushing.
Also, it turns out I was incorrect, the AI improvement hasn't gone through yet. So I will rephrase it to "when the buff comes out" opposed to the current "given the recent buff." I haven't actually played Heimerdinger post-patch it was just an assumption.
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Updated guide to better match formats with other guides; updated some wording to make things clearer; included a link to DanDinh's guide.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
Asier is a good heimer too
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On November 12 2010 00:07 Brees wrote:
Asier is a good heimer too
Does he have a guide? I'd be happy to link to it. I'm not actually any good at LoL (though Heimer's one of my best characters) but we had no Heimer thread and I'd written a quick guide before, so I figured it was better than nothing. Top players' guides are much appreciated (though I still think DanDinh's is insane).
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Alright. A lot of talk recently about jungle heimer. Who's got the goods on how to pull it off as a successful troll?
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
bumpity bump! heimer was my favorite hero when i first started LoL, and many months later after running through the gamut of champions i found that i liked him the most still. what is the general consensus on him? i really like him in solo and AT queues, hogging mid. needless to say my experience is limited to newbie levels.
my setup:
i run 9/0/21, with 2 points in the buff mastery because i really focus on taking blues. i have mpen mp5 cdr runes with flat hp quints.
for items, i am mostly concerned about sustainability in lane. i open blue crystal + 2 health pots, going back at 1250ish for catalyst and level 1 boots. i buy a shitload of wards so i can watch for blue buffs being taken and avoid getting ganked. i go back for sorc boots, nlr and zhonya's as my first item. catalyst becomes a banshee's if necessary, otherwise a RoA. then the crazy witch hat. for some reason i hate meki pendant, and think archangel's isn't that great at all. i don't understand why heimers love it so much.
questions:
first, what do good players think of teleport/ghost? i understand the LOL of it on a lot of heroes, but on a hard pushing hero it seems very strong. the combination of turrets + teleport means that the opponent mid is hard-pressed to find time to go back and gank the side lanes. once i get blue buff for the first time (usually the second time it spawns) it takes their full attention just to keep their tower up. it is extremely rare for my team to lose a tower first, and i usually take down mid tower by 15 minutes. playing from there i teleport around and take down other towers.
a concern i see a lot is how heimer is very poor at ganking, but if the other team has a lane pushed, it very simple to go with your jungler, drop 2 turrets behind them, ult and just spam away. the faster grenade travel speed makes it a lot easier to land stuns, and w is just sick anyway. i usually go for a gank around first blue buff. there is less opportunity cost in heimer ganks, too, because your turrets farm for you while you are in transit from lane to lane. at worst, you miss a gank but still push the lane hard, forcing their mid to come over to help defend.
basically what i am asking is what makes heimer not as viable (is this even true?) or at least insanely popular at higher levels? i can't see anyone who has played TvP in broodwar having any difficulty with turret placement. the rework on his shit makes him feel amazing - far better than the old heimer. the first problem that comes to mind is teams controlling the blue buffs better as i move up in elo. or maybe heimer has a lower skill ceiling? what are the counters i should be watching for?
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Imo Flash > Ghost on Heimer, Flash Rockets are sooo good. I like Teleport on Heimer.
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I like Flash / Exhaust on heimer
I build Boots + 3 -> Cata - > Tear - > RoA - > Sorcs -> Deathcap - > AA.
Not the most AP ever but gives you decent survivability and a good mana pool mid game.
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JUNGLE DINGER!
Jungledinger is too strong.
When I play jungledinger, i run magic pen reds, armor yellows, ap/lvl blues, and flat health quints. Masteries are 9/11/10 or 9/0/21, picking up whatever combination of magic pen, armor, mag res, dodge, and extra exp because heimer is so strong that he doesn't care what masteries he has. For summoners, you need smite, and the other one is heimer's choice.
Skill order is R>Q>E>W, getting W only after you max turrets and E. Start the game with cloth armor, and run over to golem and lay a turret.Then sit there and yell at your team to make sure your team covers you, because remember, you will be carrying them. After blue spawns, have your first turret tank that shit, and when it dies, lay another one behind you and have heimer tank it until you kill it with smite. When jungling, you can mess with neutral creep leashing by putting a turret just at the brink of where they will stop chasing, which will deaggro them, allowing you to take creeps in smaller groups at a time.
From there, jungling is ez mode, except lizard, which have you have to wait until lvl 5 to get. At lvl 5 you have two main options: 1) gank a lane or 2) get lizard and continuing jungling. At lvl 5, you can gank with 2 turrets and maybe get a kill, or at least send them back, or you can wait until 6 and gank with your ult. As for items, get whatever you want. My jungledinger loves gettin' a heart of gold and sorc boots to start, makin jungling a breeze and also lettin' you hit those poor laners damn hard.
Should your team mates die or go back, just hop into their lane and cover them till they get back. If you do this, you can just leave 2 turrets by golem or lizard after turrets are lvl 4 and get a free buff from anywhere on the map. Dragon is also ez after lvl 9 if you haven't been feeding (and you haven't).
http://i52.tinypic.com/2s15df9.jpg
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United States47024 Posts
Catalyst is not that good on Heimerdinger. Like Lux, you're a fairly long-range caster in teamfights, meaning you don't really want to invest that much towards survivability items. That makes Catalyst an iffy buy, and why getting as many Doran's Rings as necessary is the more appropriate way to achieve sustainability in lane. You want to beeline Deathcap as fast as possible from there.
I consider Flash/Ghost mandatory, but that's because of this way that I play Heimer--with minimal survivability midgame, there's zero room for getting caught.
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On February 21 2011 01:13 TheYango wrote:
Catalyst is not that good on Heimerdinger. Like Lux, you're a fairly long-range caster in teamfights, meaning you don't really want to invest that much towards survivability items. That makes Catalyst an iffy buy, and why getting as many Doran's Rings as necessary is the more appropriate way to achieve sustainability in lane. You want to beeline Deathcap as fast as possible from there.
I consider Flash/Ghost mandatory, but that's because of this way that I play Heimer--with minimal survivability midgame, there's zero room for getting caught.
Hourglass is pretty much the survivability item for heimer, if they have someone that can suddenly be in the middle of your turrets and burst you down (akali, jax). Grenade, Hourglass, Grenade while they get picked apart by turrets.
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I don't have time right now to rewrite the whole first post, but a quick summary:
You must run flash/ghost.
9/7/14 is still good. 9/0/21 became better with the nerf on SoS.
Since "Zhonya's" (in first post) meant the ring, the itemization is a bit different now. I prefer tear -> boots -> deathcap -> archangel's. You can replace tear/archangel with cata/RoA if you want more life and less damage.
All of Heimer's mechanics are different with his new ult. I haven't played enough on the new version to talk about all the tactics yet. Anything I mention above should still work, but it may no longer be the optimal use of his ult.
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A decent, but risky Heimer trick late game is to flank your enemies for a team fight, setting up two turrets for those going back along the typical escape route. If they come back to destroy the turrets, you can pop your ult and engage at the turrets, or you can wait and reset them, either way, it gives most enemies a moment of panic. The slow of the turrets is very useful.
You may have to ghost to loop back to team, but you're usually less useful in team fights at the beginning and a lot better at the end.. the burst isn't focused, but the cleanup potential is great.
You've still got to poke in teamfights.
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United States47024 Posts
This thread needs to get remade. It's been too long since the OP was updated, and most of the info is no longer correct (I questioned the correctness of some of it to begin with).
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Person who decides to re-work Heimer OP should put focus on Heimers playstile above builds / runes etc as that is aspect that makes heimer unique compared to other AP champs.
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Is heimerdinger at all viable anymore? I really enjoy playing with him :>
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yes! been waiting for so long... it looks pretty awesome, glad to see them increase turrets to 3
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so heimer is broken as shit right now imo
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On October 31 2013 09:39 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
so heimer is broken as shit right now imo
agreed
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I think it's kind of funny that two years ago people were talking about how someone needed to re-make the Heimerdinger thread and it never got done because no one played him.
I'm skeptical about how broken new Heimer is but it's only day 1 so god knows.
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he's probably not op at high levels, but holy shit, his ult hits like a truck with any of his spells, and with max q and some cdr you can literally throw down three turrets AFTER getting engaged on, ult q and zhonya and kill everything
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pretty dumb to remake him with op numbers, make a expensive bundle of skins so people spend tons of money on him to try to get freelo then nerf later
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expensive bundle of skins?
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I think they really gutted him tbh. The problem is what does he do to kill minions? He has more turrets, but they don't do splash except the beam which is extremely unreliable, and meanwhile he lost his free cdr from his ult, the turret kits take forever to build up, and his rockets really don't do much damage to creeps at all. So he has to dump ridiculous amounts of turrets to clear waves, and then has nothing when he actually wants to do damage.
That being said, the upgraded version of his rockets is what Lucian ult should be. xD
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On October 31 2013 12:16 zer0das wrote:
I think they really gutted him tbh. The problem is what does he do to kill minions? He has more turrets, but they don't do splash except the beam which is extremely unreliable, and meanwhile he lost his free cdr from his ult, the turret kits take forever to build up, and his rockets really don't do much damage to creeps at all. So he has to dump ridiculous amounts of turrets to clear waves, and then has nothing when he actually wants to do damage.
That being said, the upgraded version of his rockets is what Lucian ult should be. xD
Yeah, I noticed this too. Felt kinda' strange. :x
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I agree with most of what z0r said.
The turrets suck. They should have more hp and/or some mr/armor. I was one shotting them today with Kennen Qs by about level 7, which makes no sense. It would be even worse with something like Zed Q or Ahri Q that could clear multiple at a time. They also do no damage. If Heimer sets up a proper 4 turret ambush, I'm fine with them melting someone. That's not "unfun" gameplay to me. Buff turrets in every possible way.
The burst is all in the rockets, which honestly hurt a lot but are very dodgeable, at which point you'd better run because you are easily all inned. The hitbox is kinda wonky compared to the animation, though, which took some getting used to. Its probably ok to nerf the ap ratio or the subsequent missile damage on these, if Heimer gets other QOL.
The Grenade particle is cool. The old one sucked, so its an improvement. I could see the stun radius being bigger still, though.
I think the big thing is making the turrets do something without needing to have a 4 stack of them firing together.
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That's what you are supposed to do with the new turrets, stack them. They arent like the old turrets where you would kinda spread them around to farm and make a slow field.
the new turrets with the beam and 3 limit at level one are designed to be put right next to each other so they do a huge chunk of burst AOE beam damage to anyone who gets near. Beam CD is effected by CDR, which makes it #1 stat for heimer.
for clearing, minions take 60% damage per additional rocket as opposed to 20% for champions and monsters, so rockets in a medium spread are actually a quite good farming tool in conjunction with the turrets.
He took me a few games to get used to as he plays totally differently now, but I feel he is MUCH stronger than old version. I think turret health could use a bit of a buff vs champions agreed. I also find UPGRADED grenade pretty useless, as its CC is so short its not worth wasting ult on as opposed to rocket damage or apex turret permaslow to save yourself. You can use it to snipe low people from like 1400 range though. UPGRADE cooldown also seems quite unneccesarily long. I don't think he's competitive level or OP, but he's pretty playable in more than crazy niche comps. The beams are a great addition to his playstyle and make enemies think twice about just dipping into turret range.
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Heimerdinger most defintely does not need a nerf.
He has pretty decent waveclear, you just have to get used to spreading his rockets properly.
And holy shit the ult-rockets. Such damage wow
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On October 31 2013 14:08 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
Heimerdinger most defintely does not need a nerf.
He has pretty decent waveclear, you just have to get used to spreading his rockets properly.
And holy shit the ult-rockets. Such damage wow
you mean does not need a buff, i assume
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On October 31 2013 14:07 sob3k wrote:for clearing, minions take 60% damage per additional rocket as opposed to 20% for champions and monsters, so rockets in a medium spread are actually a quite good farming tool in conjunction with the turrets.
They're really not though. They don't do splash damage, and you have to think about how to spread your rockets, and even if you do it optimally you, you might get 3 creeps if you're lucky (which just matches what it used to be, but now you have to put in a lot more effort). And regardless, they're doing far less damage per rocket than they used to (if you land two on one minion, the damage is comparable to one old rocket on minions). And they raised the cooldown by 1 second.
And that's not even mentioning how terrible his turrets are at clearing waves since they don't splash on every shot now when they reach a certain level (or shred armor/magic resist).
Like I just don't see how on earth Heimer can keep up on farm given all of the above.
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I don't think that effort is a good argument for a champ because if he's played at full potential that doesn't matter. It's hard to insec but does that make lee any less good? Maybe at low levels.
I think he's yet to be cracked, to be honest.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
I wish the RW rockets were quickly smartcast 4 times based on the location of your cursor so you could change the direction/spread. It's bad enough that I'm missing half of my w's because they don't auto-target anymore, but whiffing on 4 sets of rockets is even more depressing.
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I haven't tried placing all of my turrets together in a nest for fear of them getting AoE sniped. I kept them spread across the mid lane and dumped on a Kass in my first ranked game with new heimy.
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On October 31 2013 23:08 Ghost-z wrote:
I haven't tried placing all of my turrets together in a nest for fear of them getting AoE sniped. I kept them spread across the mid lane and dumped on a Kass in my first ranked game with new heimy.
Gotta make that Venn Diagram, yo
I'm loving this new Heimer. He's probably too strong, and he will likely become FotM/ban status (which means I won't play him, which makes me sad).
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I still think he sucks but am ready to be convinced
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I just don't see how he is too strong. I think he is on an okay level. I agree with the post that criticized his minion clearing ability.
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On October 31 2013 19:24 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
I don't think that effort is a good argument for a champ because if he's played at full potential that doesn't matter. It's hard to insec but does that make lee any less good? Maybe at low levels.
I think he's yet to be cracked, to be honest.
The point isn't that it takes more effort, the point is if you have to spread your rockets perfectly to farm even half way effectively, and you're probably not going to do that 100% of the time because it is non-trivial. Best case scenario when farming, you break even with what you used to be able to, but the cdr is 1 second longer.
Put another way: aiming this skill against multiple targets and having your spread controlled to a high degree of precision is an absolutely absurd expectation. That's fine against champions, against minions I think that's a bit ridiculous in light of how poor his turrets are at clearing now.
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How are we supposed to skill up Heimer?
I know E is our 1-point wonder but is it best skilled at level 2, 3 or 4? (level 1 on invades)
I would assume maxing W against anyone who can kill turrets easily and maxing Q against others.
Is it purely matchup based, playstyle based, or is maxing one almost universally better?
I've been maxing Rockets to harass and using my turrets as a safety net (preventing the wave from reaching my tower). It's really safe against ganks because I don't push the wave hard early and they end up tanking 3 turrets + tower in order to dive me. The feeling I've been getting from the general thread is that you just max Q and shove the lane repeatedly. The only problem with that is if they can easily kill your turrets and even rank 5 Q takes 20 seconds to build a new turret.
My skills WQEWWR into R>W>Q>E
I keep 2-3 turrets just outside of my tower range and place one turret in the river bush if my lane starts pushing. Since my turrets aren't getting killed i usually have 1-2 stored to shove the lane if my enemy tries to roam or base.
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I've personally been going QEWQQR, R>Q>W>E. I like E at lvl 2 in case of early gank/aggression, and rank 1 W really isn't worth having at lvl 2 imo.
I pretty much just auto push, and have my nest of turrets scattered around the middle of the lane. I try to be aware of ganks as much as possible, and if they do, they end up in my nest of turrets (unless they're being heavy cleared by enemy laner).
It's still a work in progress, and he needs to be fleshed out more. I think it may be situational/dictated by play style, but still working on figuring him out.
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I just played against Heim for the first time. Not sure how you're supposed to ever gank Heim when he has so many turrets defending him. Their scaling is ridiculous.
Or if you're a melee champion and he maxes Q, I'm not sure how you're supposed to stop the slow push of turrets.
How much life do the turrets have? I was maxing Q on Kayle and at one point I 1 shotted one, and then I was like "yeah, figured out his weakness". But then a few levels later my Q didn't kill the turrets and the big turret has much more life than the little ones.
edit: Ah they have scaling life armor and mr.
Maybe you can blow them up with AoE though late game.
Syndra can knock one out without getting too close. Nunu can consume one but would take damage getting to it.
You could get smite and get a champion who builds spell vamp. Every smite heals you for X% of 490-1000 during laning which is a decent amount. Then late game you and the jungler can take out 2 turrets out of the 3/4 every fight.
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Yes, they melt to AoE. The turrets are really quite squishy and have an awkward time in the early mid game where I feel they just disappear with a strong breeze.
But yes, if he maxes Q (which he should be, imo), and you decide to fight within his turrets, you're gonna have a bad time.
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United States11390 Posts
Does anyone know how to play vs Syndra? Both times I had to lane vs her, I was completely destroyed and had no idea what to do. T_T
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I don't really know but I'm just curious, can she grab your turret ?
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On February 05 2014 20:13 FaCE_1 wrote:
I don't really know but I'm just curious, can she grab your turret ?
Yes, which makes them totally useless against her in lane.
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You have absolutely 0 chance against a champ like syndra. Heimer is trash against long range champions, he shines against melees because of his turrets.... well at least early because after that he's honestly almost worse than before his remake. Turrets get melted by aoe, don't even deal that much in the mid-late game and his W and E don't even scale that well AND have long cooldowns on top of being skillshots.
Honestly i've given up on the donger, even the games where I lane against a melee and get a double kill 1v2 (because they have a melee jungler and I just dance around turrets with barrier) I'm completely useless after that because W and E both have 1 or 2 points (since you max Q) and to be effective you have to land everything perfectly plus have people walking into your turrets which by some miracle need not to get oneshoted by aoes.
To sum it up he needs all the stars to align to be just a bit useful.
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EPT
