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This is an ad-top Nidalee build. I have been experimenting with different variations and it feels like I've got this one down pretty solid. This will be my second revision of this build, and first time posting it on TL.
Masteries:
21 Offense: Summoner's Wrath(1), Sorcery(3), Blast(4), Deadliness(4), Havoc(1), WeaponExpertise(1), Arcane Knowledge(1), Brute Force(2), Sunder(3), Executioner(1) 9 Defense: Durability(4), Hardiness(3), Resistance(1), Veteran's Scars(1)
(Toss up between hardiness and resistance, I adjust this page depending on the enemy team comp or opponent will lane against)
Runes:
Armor: 13 (9seal)
Armor Pen: 17 (6mark,3hybrid mark,2hybrid quint, 1quint)
Magic Resistance: 12 (9glyph)
Magic Pen: 4.6 (3hybrid mark, 2hybrid quint)
(I am converting to Hybrid marks and quints for penetration, I realize that I use magical attacks just as much as physical with Nidalee -> Swipe / Leap / Trap. When I first converted to Hybrid Pen I focus'd on a lvl 3 spear at lvl 5/7)
Items:
Start - Crystalline Flask, 3 Health pots
Early - Giant belt -> boots -> Avarice -> Glacial Shroud
Mid - Mercs, Iceborn Gauntlet, Giants belt, Avarice (build into satic shiv)
End - Merc Treads, Iceborn Gauntlet, Static Shiv, Warmogs, BF Sword (Build to IE or BloodThirster), Black Cleaver (or Last Whisper)
(Game usually ends before I get to final build, by that time my items will change based off the enemy team comp)
The Iceborn + Static Shiv are great for lane pushing / farming, and are very helpful in team fights.
Leveling -> Trap, Heal, Spear, Heal, Heal, Ult, Heal, Trap, Trap, Trap, Ult, Heal, Trap..
(Stop at 4heal, 20 mana and 35 hp less then a lvl 5, and get the trap to lvl 4 for 35% armor and magic penetration, After 4 levels of trap, finish off the lvl 5 heal for the +10 atk speed, 35hp)
Summoner Spells: Flash / Ghost
This is only my Top Nidalee build, I find these compliment my style the best. (Both agressive and defensive)
The Avarice is to pick up early gold and the Giants belt is extremly cost effective. I usually pick up the Glacial shroud before Sheen just because the extra armor and cdr. I use the level1 spear if needed for minion farm / bush checking, if you are going bruiser it is not mana cost->damage efficient. Her most important and underused spell is her bushwack. At level 4 it is 215 magic damage over 4 seconds, and a 35% debuff to their armor and magic resistance. with no items that is 43/43% and flat 22 armor pen / 4.6 Mpen with this build. If I get last whisper and level it to 5 that totals 83% armor, 48% magic if they hit it (Assuming they add, I was informed that because one is a debuff the other is an on hit, the debuff would calculate before the on-hit and they would not stack).
I have also been substituting the buff of the lizard eldar for the Statik-shiv. Instead of getting the avarice I would get 2 long swords, get the chain mail for the glacial shroud, and then complete lizard eldar before iceborn.
I use to run with Manamura, Spirit Visage, Blade of the Ruined king. I no longer get a tear of the goddess (no manamura anymore). It is a fantastic item, and I had no problem toggling the 'orb effect' but it got to the point where long drawn out fights left me too low on mana, and without blue you lost sustain potential. Spirit visage is situational, and blade of the ruined king does not pay off if you have a static shiv. Better with an early bf sword or building last whisper / cleaver.
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Nid's a pretty interesting champ. After playing Elise and Jayce for a while, I expected her to be a "step down", as she's the older form switching champ, but her mobility and poke are pretty entertaining.
I actualy felt that Chalice worked better on bruiser Nid than either tear item, considering it gives you a bit of extra MR (good against teams with decent AP) and having AP and CDR for your heal isn't a bad thing by any stretch.
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chalice gives neither ap or cdr though
unless you meant Athene's unholy grail, which I don't like at all for both AP Nidalee ( not enough AP) or Bruiser ( upgrade not worth it and delays you even further from dealing any dmg)
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I did mean upgrading it, sorry for the confusion.
But how is it not worth on Bruiser? I mean sure, traditionally bruiser Nid focuses on AD, but you have 5 abilities that scale off AP, and given her Cougar form is manaless the CDR is amazing. 25 -> 40 MR is nothing to sneeze at against hard AP champs either, like Elise or Akali (who both got pretty big in my game).
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On May 18 2013 00:01 Requizen wrote:
I did mean upgrading it, sorry for the confusion.
But how is it not worth on Bruiser? I mean sure, traditionally bruiser Nid focuses on AD, but you have 5 abilities that scale off AP, and given her Cougar form is manaless the CDR is amazing. 25 -> 40 MR is nothing to sneeze at against hard AP champs either, like Elise or Akali (who both got pretty big in my game).
It does not fit the play style. Bruiser is relying on your skills to do damage, and making your champion durable with heavy sustain. Engagements are about exchanging in your favor.
Let me show you:
With my runes and masteries as Nidalee I start out with 44 = 31% magic resistance.
This means that if someone hits me with a spell that does 100 magic damage, I reduce that down to 69.
Null mantel is 20 magic resistance (66 = 39%) at a cost of 400 gold, is reducing the damage from a 100 damage magical attack down to 61. So 400 gold comes out to 8 extra health. When the spell gets stronger and does 300 damage, then I am saving 24 extra health at the cost of 400 gold.
Chalice is 25 magic resistance (69 = 41%) at a cost of 880. This means that for an additional 480 gold I am reducing 2 extra points of magic damage, or 6 for a spell that does 300 damage.
The Bruiser concept is taking your gold and placing it only into cost effective items. If I were to buy a ruby gem 475gold = 180 hp, I am paying 75 extra gold but he has to hit me more every time we exchange damage.
Assuming we are exchanging 400 health each per engagement. At 1000 base health each, the player with the ruby gem (1180 hp now) would walk away with 980 hp, and the player with the mantel would walk away with 756 health.
This is only basic terms, applying magic resistance. (Vlad, Rumble, Akali) Almost everyone else uses physical damage (meaning that your magic resistance is useless). I am not applying flat or scaling penetration, just like I am not applying damage can be received from multiple sources (both magical and physical, and from a ganking jungler).
Do you spend your 1k+ gold on a Chalice and boots (25mres) or a Giants belt (1000gold = 380 hp) if you were getting ganked and exchanging 400 hp for 800hp?
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I am fully aware of how resistances and health works, but thanks for the math.
You're assuming that you're getting hit once and then that's it, when all of those champions are going to hit you multiple times. MR reduces each of Vlad's casts, each tick of Flamespitter, and every proc of Akali. In what void is Akali or Vlad going to hit you with a single Q? Rumble's entire kit is better fought with MR than health due to the fact that his big hitters (Q and R) are DoT and reduced a lot by MR.
One you didn't mention was Elise, who is more of a potent threat top lane than Vlad or Rumble right now, and deals % health. Buying a Belt or Ruby against her is just going to make her laugh, while MR + heals will be far more effective.
Not to mention that champions with heals scale better with resists than health.
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On May 18 2013 08:43 Requizen wrote:
I am fully aware of how resistances and health works, but thanks for the math.
You're assuming that you're getting hit once and then that's it, when all of those champions are going to hit you multiple times. MR reduces each of Vlad's casts, each tick of Flamespitter, and every proc of Akali. In what void is Akali or Vlad going to hit you with a single Q? Rumble's entire kit is better fought with MR than health due to the fact that his big hitters (Q and R) are DoT and reduced a lot by MR.
One you didn't mention was Elise, who is more of a potent threat top lane than Vlad or Rumble right now, and deals % health. Buying a Belt or Ruby against her is just going to make her laugh, while MR + heals will be far more effective.
Not to mention that champions with heals scale better with resists than health.
This is why I used 'exchange' examples because I was certain you would not comprehend. Since when does a q do 400 damage when you only have 1000 hp? this is saying that both players are capable of combo'ing a series of attacks that will come out to about 400 damage to each side, fair assumption? If you are coming out of an engagement taking more damage then your opponent then you would agree you did not engage well?
Rumble's window of opportunity is right after is flame spitter ends, in which case the outcome of an engagement would be in your favor. If you take into consideration his entire combo and each abilities cool downs, you will come out with more hp had you chosen health items over magic resistance. IF you choose to take damage constantly over a longer period of time then magic resistance is arguable a better choice (This is recommended for characters that do not have mobility to get away or a nidalee that fails at doing so)
A heal is a heal, it does not scale based off your health and thus it is only factor is the casting time. You take the time it takes to cast the spell and the amount healed to determine your heal per min. Magic resistance does not increase my heal, and a ruby gem does not increase my heal. With the upgraded chalice you are increasing your heal by roughly 45.
If you would like to argue the 1% missing health from elise I can pull up the math for that too, it was nerfed recently.
EDIT: Thanks for mentioning elise, I completely forgot cause I dont usually see ap top. But there are more physical damage champions you will go up against, and health will deter both physical and magical.
characters top.
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On May 18 2013 09:33 DanceSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2013 08:43 Requizen wrote:
Not to mention that champions with heals scale better with resists than health. A heal is a heal, it does not scale based off your health and thus it is only factor is the casting time. You take the time it takes to cast the spell and the amount healed to determine your heal per min. Magic resistance does not increase my heal, and a ruby gem does not increase my heal.
You're looking at resistances very wrong. Effective healing directly scales with resistances - if you have 100 MR and Armor, your heals are twice as effective as if you had zero. A 200 hp heal will take 400 raw damage to burn through in this case. Champs that have large sources of free hp (heals, shields) greatly benefit from resistances compared with the rest of the cast - Riven and Nunu are prime examples besides Nidalee herself.
Also, you're looking at the net damage reduction after resistances (with a lot of resists, adding more seems to reduce the incoming damage by a small amount) but that's not really the right way to look at it. For any fixed value of HP, any resistance item gives you the same effective health no matter what the resistance is at, whether you have 0 Armor/MR or 300.
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On May 18 2013 08:43 Requizen wrote:
Rumble's entire kit is better fought with MR than health due to the fact that his big hitters (Q and R) are DoT and reduced a lot by MR.
On May 18 2013 09:33 DanceSC wrote:
IF you choose to take damage constantly over a longer period of time then magic resistance is arguable a better choice
The extended period of time is your entire laning phase between trips back to fountain. Why does it matter whether damage was exchanged in one outdrawn engagement or two brief engagements in succession?
Why is it relevant whether Rumble's Q is DoT or burst, as long as the damage isn't enough to 100-0 you? (Vlad's Q isn't DoT, but MR is just as effective as it would be if it were DoT)
As for healing scaling with resistances, I think everyone agrees that MR is pointless against physical damage. The math on items by DancerSC is not very useful; there's no point in comparing % damage reduction with flat HP using arbitrarily chosen damage values.
It's also wrong to say "champions with heals scale better with resists than health" -- they scale better with resists /than other champions/ do. Whether they scale better with resists than with health depends on your current level of resists and your expected mixture of physical/magical damage. It's not true that building resists before HP is necessarily better just because you have a heal.
Consider DanceSC's scenario of two people with 1000hp.
If you're only ever taking 400 damage from your opponent, you don't need any defensive items to begin with, so that example is useless. Defensive items pay off once you're in danger of dying.
A more useful number is how much damage your opponent needs to inflict on you before you die. Suppose for simplicity that you have 44 starting magic resistance and all the opponent's damage is magical -- no auto-attacks, no minion damage, no jungler (all of which would skew the numbers in favor of health over MR).
If you buy a ruby gem, you have 44 MR and 1180 HP. The opponent will kill you if he deals 1699 magical damage. (144/100*1180)
If you buy a null-magic mantle, you have 64MR and 1000 HP. The opponent will kill you if he deals 1640 magical damage. (164/100*1000)
In the absence of heals and physical damage, the ruby gem is a better purchase in this hypothetical scenario.
Healing X HP increases your EHP against magical damage by X*(100+MR)/100. In this example, having the null-magic mantle will heal you for 0.2X more EHP than having the ruby gem.
The null-magic mantle will be a better purchase in this scenario once you heal more than 300 HP. (5*(1699-1640))
It doesn't matter what healed you; 300 HP is as little as 2 HP potions, and Nidalee's E alone will easily do more than 300HP in a realistic laning scenario.
So, if you take heals into account but assume no physical damage, the null-magic mantle is indeed a better purchase [against people who can't kill you before you cast E a few times].
If you take physical damage into account the balance will swing into favor of the ruby gem again. In any realistic laning scenario, your early-game (since we're assuming you're at ~1k HP) will include a significant amount of physical damage.
I'm not going to do the math again, but it's easy to see how you can just pick some ratio of magical/physical damage and see what ends up on top.
Either way this particular example doesn't seem to strongly favor either purchase; other factors will be a lot more relevant in practice. (75 gold for ruby gem is an extra ward, for example)
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Started playing bruiser nid top after seeing flame do the BOTRK > SV build in OGN. Would like a little help on lane matchups. Are there any champs that you should really not pick nid vs? So far she seems ridiculously easy to farm on in lane, really good autos, easy getaways post 6.
Also ive been going max reqw is this normal for bruiser/ad nid? (just for max sustain to farm up till 6 usually then i start getting more agressive, or I wait till I have botrk or at least cutlass before I get aggressive).
Also starting items for bruiser nid? I have been doing longsword 1 ward start which sounds pretty weird but seems to go ok... as long as I don't die at level 1 (which I haven't yet).
P.S I was looking at that ad/bruiser nid build up the top of this page and I really wouldnt do that build... Don't really want to build statik or a BF sword, don't see the point. So far my builds on nid have gone more like BORTK > SV or Frozen Heart > randuins or triforce if i need more dmg. Thoughts? Am I way off?
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Anybody else use clairvoyance on mid Nidalee? I've been trying it for a few games now and it's pretty good times.
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On August 23 2013 13:51 ZataN wrote:
Started playing bruiser nid top after seeing flame do the BOTRK > SV build in OGN. Would like a little help on lane matchups. Are there any champs that you should really not pick nid vs? So far she seems ridiculously easy to farm on in lane, really good autos, easy getaways post 6.
Also ive been going max reqw is this normal for bruiser/ad nid? (just for max sustain to farm up till 6 usually then i start getting more agressive, or I wait till I have botrk or at least cutlass before I get aggressive).
Also starting items for bruiser nid? I have been doing longsword 1 ward start which sounds pretty weird but seems to go ok... as long as I don't die at level 1 (which I haven't yet).
P.S I was looking at that ad/bruiser nid build up the top of this page and I really wouldnt do that build... Don't really want to build statik or a BF sword, don't see the point. So far my builds on nid have gone more like BORTK > SV or Frozen Heart > randuins or triforce if i need more dmg. Thoughts? Am I way off?
Especially with the altered triforce that looks pretty good. Can also get iceborn instead of FH (improved waveclear, nice poke but not as good as Tri.)
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wow, nidalee is so much fun, just bought her and am learning her mechanics on dominion (building bruiser style, triforce/bork and sv/randuin whatever, not the gay ap spear for half your health shit)
QUESTION which i forgot to ask: when you're doing the trick where you auto in human and change to cougar to Q for the execute damage...is it supposed to be reliable? i think i've only managed to do it successfully a few times, maybe ping too high?
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On September 05 2013 23:16 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2013 13:51 ZataN wrote:
Started playing bruiser nid top after seeing flame do the BOTRK > SV build in OGN. Would like a little help on lane matchups. Are there any champs that you should really not pick nid vs? So far she seems ridiculously easy to farm on in lane, really good autos, easy getaways post 6.
Also ive been going max reqw is this normal for bruiser/ad nid? (just for max sustain to farm up till 6 usually then i start getting more agressive, or I wait till I have botrk or at least cutlass before I get aggressive).
Also starting items for bruiser nid? I have been doing longsword 1 ward start which sounds pretty weird but seems to go ok... as long as I don't die at level 1 (which I haven't yet).
P.S I was looking at that ad/bruiser nid build up the top of this page and I really wouldnt do that build... Don't really want to build statik or a BF sword, don't see the point. So far my builds on nid have gone more like BORTK > SV or Frozen Heart > randuins or triforce if i need more dmg. Thoughts? Am I way off?
Especially with the altered triforce that looks pretty good. Can also get iceborn instead of FH (improved waveclear, nice poke but not as good as Tri.)
Yeah ive been playing more bruiser nid recently, just rushing triforce and its been rad. Playing nidalee is super fun, feels like she is the champ with the highest skill cap in the game (well... tied with lee sin?).
I might try some iceborn, havent done that yet.
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Every time playing vs Nidalee and getting hit by that spear you go "aaaaaoch" when it does 1300 damage and you're forced to back xD
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On October 23 2013 16:17 ZataN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 23:16 sylverfyre wrote:On August 23 2013 13:51 ZataN wrote:
Started playing bruiser nid top after seeing flame do the BOTRK > SV build in OGN. Would like a little help on lane matchups. Are there any champs that you should really not pick nid vs? So far she seems ridiculously easy to farm on in lane, really good autos, easy getaways post 6.
Also ive been going max reqw is this normal for bruiser/ad nid? (just for max sustain to farm up till 6 usually then i start getting more agressive, or I wait till I have botrk or at least cutlass before I get aggressive).
Also starting items for bruiser nid? I have been doing longsword 1 ward start which sounds pretty weird but seems to go ok... as long as I don't die at level 1 (which I haven't yet).
P.S I was looking at that ad/bruiser nid build up the top of this page and I really wouldnt do that build... Don't really want to build statik or a BF sword, don't see the point. So far my builds on nid have gone more like BORTK > SV or Frozen Heart > randuins or triforce if i need more dmg. Thoughts? Am I way off?
Especially with the altered triforce that looks pretty good. Can also get iceborn instead of FH (improved waveclear, nice poke but not as good as Tri.) Yeah ive been playing more bruiser nid recently, just rushing triforce and its been rad. Playing nidalee is super fun, feels like she is the champ with the highest skill cap in the game (well... tied with lee sin?). I might try some iceborn, havent done that yet.
Unsure how bruiser nidalee could be considered highest skillcap in the game.
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On October 23 2013 22:22 schmutttt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2013 16:17 ZataN wrote:On September 05 2013 23:16 sylverfyre wrote:On August 23 2013 13:51 ZataN wrote:
Started playing bruiser nid top after seeing flame do the BOTRK > SV build in OGN. Would like a little help on lane matchups. Are there any champs that you should really not pick nid vs? So far she seems ridiculously easy to farm on in lane, really good autos, easy getaways post 6.
Also ive been going max reqw is this normal for bruiser/ad nid? (just for max sustain to farm up till 6 usually then i start getting more agressive, or I wait till I have botrk or at least cutlass before I get aggressive).
Also starting items for bruiser nid? I have been doing longsword 1 ward start which sounds pretty weird but seems to go ok... as long as I don't die at level 1 (which I haven't yet).
P.S I was looking at that ad/bruiser nid build up the top of this page and I really wouldnt do that build... Don't really want to build statik or a BF sword, don't see the point. So far my builds on nid have gone more like BORTK > SV or Frozen Heart > randuins or triforce if i need more dmg. Thoughts? Am I way off?
Especially with the altered triforce that looks pretty good. Can also get iceborn instead of FH (improved waveclear, nice poke but not as good as Tri.) Yeah ive been playing more bruiser nid recently, just rushing triforce and its been rad. Playing nidalee is super fun, feels like she is the champ with the highest skill cap in the game (well... tied with lee sin?). I might try some iceborn, havent done that yet. Unsure how bruiser nidalee could be considered highest skillcap in the game.
the q execute damage and the q spears to throw. you can give your ad a steriod but you have no cc. Her skills are a lot more independent of eachother then say jayce or elise too.
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I just randomly chuck spears and hope for the best. It's like a fucking lotto ticket.
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On October 23 2013 22:22 schmutttt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2013 16:17 ZataN wrote:On September 05 2013 23:16 sylverfyre wrote:On August 23 2013 13:51 ZataN wrote:
Started playing bruiser nid top after seeing flame do the BOTRK > SV build in OGN. Would like a little help on lane matchups. Are there any champs that you should really not pick nid vs? So far she seems ridiculously easy to farm on in lane, really good autos, easy getaways post 6.
Also ive been going max reqw is this normal for bruiser/ad nid? (just for max sustain to farm up till 6 usually then i start getting more agressive, or I wait till I have botrk or at least cutlass before I get aggressive).
Also starting items for bruiser nid? I have been doing longsword 1 ward start which sounds pretty weird but seems to go ok... as long as I don't die at level 1 (which I haven't yet).
P.S I was looking at that ad/bruiser nid build up the top of this page and I really wouldnt do that build... Don't really want to build statik or a BF sword, don't see the point. So far my builds on nid have gone more like BORTK > SV or Frozen Heart > randuins or triforce if i need more dmg. Thoughts? Am I way off?
Especially with the altered triforce that looks pretty good. Can also get iceborn instead of FH (improved waveclear, nice poke but not as good as Tri.) Yeah ive been playing more bruiser nid recently, just rushing triforce and its been rad. Playing nidalee is super fun, feels like she is the champ with the highest skill cap in the game (well... tied with lee sin?). I might try some iceborn, havent done that yet. Unsure how bruiser nidalee could be considered highest skillcap in the game.
I ment nidalee in general, probably more so AP nid as more reliance on hitting skillshots. Still i feel like her kit gives you lots of room to outplay if you are good, however it can be hard to use all her skills together in a cohesive fashion.
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EPT
