EPTCommunity Feedback Update - October 8 - Page 3
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oGsTOP
Korea (South)19 Posts
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TedCruz2016
Hong Kong271 Posts
On October 09 2015 09:36 ThunderBum wrote: The Goliath exists, it just needs to transform to attack ground or air. It's built at the starport fyi. Actually the viking was designed to be the new goliath since WoL, but I wish it had a better performance in its ground mode. | ||
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Beliskner
111 Posts
On October 09 2015 12:43 oGsTOP wrote: nerf warp prism speed Medivacs too | ||
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StatixEx
United Kingdom779 Posts
going off the rest of the post, ive never been one to balance whine because how can i . . im not GM. i know everyone involved with sc will get the game to a good state within 6 months of final release anyway and i actually look forward to massive changes as it keeps the game fresh. Just keep it up guys! | ||
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GoSuNamhciR
124 Posts
On October 09 2015 13:10 StatixEx wrote: "since Terran is the slightly weaker of the 3 races currently." . . so, no where have i heard on any of the community talk shows and streams that this is the case. Is this a metric from their end? Almost everyone is saying terran if u let them get there its all over . . .so then the dumbest come back is . . dont let them get there. Ok, in my strategy game the only way i play this race is the same every time . .early all in . . .i feel empowered already! much choice, much wow! going off the rest of the post, ive never been one to balance whine because how can i . . im not GM. i know everyone involved with sc will get the game to a good state within 6 months of final release anyway and i actually look forward to massive changes as it keeps the game fresh. Just keep it up guys! This is on the latest patch, and the patch before where adepts made terran unplayable. The mule nerf hurt terran more than the chrono and inject nerf their respective races. They are doing a lesser % nerf to mule and making it mine faster with less minerals per trip. Terran was really awkward to play economically last patch compared to other 2 races which may have made them weaker overall.. you would fall behind very slightly. | ||
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geokilla
Canada8224 Posts
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FaiFai
Peru53 Posts
We saw the popular thread this week stating how Heart of the Swarm has near perfect balance. We wanted to say a few things about that. First is the game’s current balance is really a combined effort of everyone doing his or her part to make the results this good. For example, if players of a certain race aren’t playing as well as they would normally, even with our current numbers, the in-game stats wouldn’t look as good. Also, due to the heavy collaboration with our community, we feel that the perception around good stats has improved. In the past, we’ve seen many negative responses to posts like this due to less people being connected. Now however, due to increased community collaboration, we feel that this weird negativity has largely been dispelled. How blizz could have a totally missread of the situations, people in HotS still having complains about forcefields, widowmines, and the most recent the mech in ZvT, the difference is just the people was giving up, tired of expressing their complains and have no answer of blizz, and with upcoming of LotV no have sense to being angry about the balance of HotS, but for blizz they get the almost perfect balance ,lol. Confusing resignation with positiveness about balance. | ||
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Kvothe1139
United States17 Posts
On October 09 2015 07:57 Espartaquen wrote: Phoenix wars in pvp? Liberators? Disruptor vs Disruptor wars? No comment on these areas? Times ticking and we need these adressed too... Whats wrong with Disruptor Wars? | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
-mule needs to be fully reverted T is weak as hell mid/late game because of reduced mineral income that T normally had from mules...please blizzard stop messing with essential economy/macro of SC2 and just revert it and work on balance/design -disruptor ok cool change, never see them in games tho because adept is still broken -adept nerf again...ok thank god? Like...this unit is warhound 2.0 it really needs to be toned down -cyclone speed buff is not the answer to the cyclone sucking. It was severely overnerfed across 3-4 patches. AT the start of beta it was so refreshing being able to play offensive mech and move out of your base pre 15 min and actually trade units with your opponent. Now tho...cyclones are absolute trash against every unit in the game, especially air units which they are supposed to counter... As it currently stands, there is no anti-air unit from the factory that can be built to counter brood/viper, carriers, BCS, liberators, etc...MECH NEEDS AN ANTI-AIR UNIT, PLEASE FOCUS ON THE ANTI-AIR ASPECT OF THIS UNIT BLIZZARD. I played a game recently where i went mech and built cyclones as efficiently and as fast as i possibly could...my opponent had 4 carriers at the point in the game where i had 3 cyclones...what the fuck? The unit was overnerfed and is too expensive...and doesn't even do the anti-air job it's supposed to. It needs more changes than just the typical blizzard "LET'S MAKE IT FASTER GUYS :D " -warp-in changes to warp prism...good idea as the insta-warp-in was pretty BS Overall tho...blizzard is really ignoring a lot of key things that are broken in beta still and what i'm about to say you will notice a trend - THEY ARE ALL AIR UNITS Broodlord+viper is essentially a new brood+infestor insta-win comp because broods were buffed some but mostly because vipers are probably the most broken unit in the game. Parasitic bomb in combination with blinding cloud and abduct is way too much versatility for a single unit to have, especially a unit that can go back and regain all of it's energy. Carriers in general are absurd and don't need the release interceptor ability, it's gimmicky and the new carrier itself is way too strong as well and needs to be toned down. Any time i off-raced as Protoss even if i was losing the game, if i could collect 8-10 carriers and a few high templar suddenly i was winning and my opponent couldn't do anything to stop me even with a 200/200 army of hydra lol. Tempests are also "carrier tier" in terms of lategame bullshit. Liberators are the new raven for Terran in terms of "let's just mass this thing late game because there's no better options." I'm not sure partly if it's because the liberator itself is strong...i know i'll have some Terran bias but i'd like to think the liberator has a lot of weaknesses that things like that viper and carrier don't have...mainly set-up time, an essential upgrade to be researched, and the fact that if the opponent moves out of the circle the liberator will do nothing. Or the liberator is simply the go-to late game because every single other option Terran has sucks and the raven was NERFED INTO THE GROUND. And also, even though BCS are absolute trash in low numbers, BCS are ridiculous OP when you get 10+ of them with full energy. All of the above are air units guys. This is a worrying trend (no meme intended) because every single one of the above units requires the opponent to sit back and turtle and get sufficient anti-air to deal with. Massing air vs air makes it near impossible for both players to trade units, unless you count brood+viper being an autowin because vipers obliterate every air unit in the game with 2 key presses and no micro. I feel like Blizzard should nerf all of the above air units and make ground anti-air better so all SC2 games will trend towards ground vs ground trading of units rather than the slow accumulation of a ridiculous air army that cannot be engaged into until both players have an "ultimate composition." Trust me when i say the above because i know best when it comes to massing ravens in WOL/HOTS late game. The thing is people don't understand the main issue of why that was necessary for Terran mech - Terran mech has no good ground anti-air. So it meant if Zerg built even a few brood lords, you had no valid AA option from mass factories -> you had to start massing air yourself in anticipation of that. I have off-raced a lot in the beta and i get the same feeling when i play Zerg and Protoss. If my opponent starts massing liberators, well fuck. Now i have to start massing tempests and carriers myself because stalkers are absolute trash against broodlords or liberators in high numbers. Or if i'm playing Zerg vs Protoss and my opponent is turtling 3 base into carriers...well FML looks like i have to sit here and mass 20+ corruptors and get the broken parasitic bomb so nothing is gonna happen for another 10-20 min in the game. Ground units in SC1 were powerful enough to fight versus air counter parts. If a Protoss was massing carriers, Terran mech players already had 8-10 factories and had a valid counter in simply amassing goliaths and even sometimes ghosts with lockdown in rare cases. You could mass produce a very cheap anti-air option that would force action to happen. Even things like mass wraiths and mass scouts were absolute trash in SC1...because these units were just light harrass and ground units in high numbers demolished them. That's probably the best comparison i can give - the Scout (from the stargate) for Protoss in SC1 was really really bad against ground units, which allowed mech play to entirely be viable because there was no random void rays or phoenixes or oracle that you had to prepare against every game. It was just robo tech, so all games went to ground vs ground armies, and then late game goliath vs carriers. All of the bullshit mass air compositions in SC2 though are late game oriented and i think that's why blizzard is either ignoring them or does not understand about them to start balancing them properly. Thoughts on my thoughts? lol | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
My Community Feedback posting streak on TL got broken because DK decided to post it 2 AM... Damn you DK!!! | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On October 09 2015 13:10 StatixEx wrote: "since Terran is the slightly weaker of the 3 races currently." . . so, no where have i heard on any of the community talk shows and streams that this is the case. Is this a metric from their end? Almost everyone is saying terran if u let them get there its all over . . .so then the dumbest come back is . . dont let them get there. Ok, in my strategy game the only way i play this race is the same every time . .early all in . . .i feel empowered already! much choice, much wow! going off the rest of the post, ive never been one to balance whine because how can i . . im not GM. i know everyone involved with sc will get the game to a good state within 6 months of final release anyway and i actually look forward to massive changes as it keeps the game fresh. Just keep it up guys! Mule nerf is a really hardcore nerf anytime it happens because Terran than starts to miss thousands of resources over the course of an SC2 game that are necessary for T to function vs larva remax and mass warpgates late game. Larva inject nerf doesn't matter once Zerg gets to 60 drones - they will have the same exponentially growing economy as they did pre-patch b4 that point, and then once they're at that point it's as if nothing changed while T/P were nerfed. Same for Protoss - not as bad as mule nerf because once Protoss gets to their worker count then their economy is the same as pre-nerf. Terran basically got a ridiculously hard nerf to the entire race from mule nerfs that are arbitrary. Protoss got a ridiculous chrono nerf that does similar, tho not as bad. And Zerg is essentially left as the god tier race because their economy doesn't change and they already have an exponentially increasing economy compared to T/P economy. People can verify all of the above with graphs with economy over time and such if they really want to. I'm just describing it from a gameplay stand point as math bores me though it's nice to know in general how the races function on an economic level. | ||
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
One thing that blizzard has done in HotS and LotV is severely screwed with the dynamic of long-range air to ground units. Units like the broodlord, the tempest, and to an extent the carrier, and now the liberator, require air-based responses most of the time if they are massed; killing these units with ground usually requires a hail-mary flank or blink underneath to pick them off. This is an arguably bad dynamic, and Blizzard has made it significantly worse by buffing broodlord range, buffing carriers, adding tempests, creating the oracle's revelation for the tempests, and adding liberators. These progressive buffs to long-range AtG units are perhaps the single most important factor in creating this shift to air that avilo mentions. This becomes a bad direction for blizzard to go in when despite forcing races into air-based armies, they do not make them interesting, and they insert hard counters to air (like parasitic bomb) into the game. Does it make even an iota of sense that zerg should have a unit that forces terran to make air or lose (the broodlord) but also has a spell that slaughters the air that terran must make? It's out of the game, but did the tempest's ability to kill units over time and force vikings/corruptors to commit into fights in storms make any sense, given that terran and zerg were forced to make air units to kill tempests? Of course not; none of these make any sense at all. But blizzard is, for some unknown reason, creating these situations with unbeatable compositions (carriers, broodlord-viper), turtle games (as avilo mentions), and plain boring unit interactions (anything with corruptors at all.) The solution to this would be to either nerf the air units in some way, lower their range (average range of these units has just slowly gone up for no apparent reason), or create better ground-based anti-air for every race. If Blizzard is going to put these strong long-range AtG units in the game, then every race needs something like the goliath, which provided good long-range GtA damage against armored. There isn't really much in the game like this currently, except maybe the cyclone, but it's awful. The thor had an attack that filled this role but it was always too weak to work properly and thors were too clunky to fight well anyway. If blizzard refuses to do that, then the least they could do would be to at least make the air vs air fights interesting and fair. Currently they are neither. | ||
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Thouhastmail
Korea (North)876 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RKgA2NU.jpg) this is exactly what terran needs for now - weak AG, powerful AA. | ||
Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On October 09 2015 12:12 Wrathsc2 wrote: byul has made it to like every finals in the past 3 months wtf are u talking about One player has no impact on the grand scheme of balance whatsoever. | ||
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Creager
Germany1889 Posts
On October 09 2015 10:36 PinoKotsBeer wrote: Regardless the outcome of the patch. Im still happy with the weekly feedback from blizzard Sorry, but I'd rather have it the other way round. While I initially liked their change of mind regarding those frequent updates, I have grown wary of these updates, because they are just PR with hardly any useful data provided, just dropping key words here and there to give readers the illusion they really care about the game instead of money. Problems many people like to see addressed aren't mentioned, at all. But to not be completely negative, patch 3.0 is indeed visually appealing, so thank you for that. | ||
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Nezgar
Germany534 Posts
On October 09 2015 10:50 usopsama wrote: Heart of the Swarm has a near perfect balance? I am extremely confused. Since it came up a few times, this is how the balance in the past 12 months looked like (according to Aligulac): ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/O7yam0P.png) That's... the most balanced period this game ever had. The win rates in each match-up have been between 46-53% the entire time. For comparison, this is how the entire graph for SC2 looks like: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NA9G39q.png) I've highlighted the past 12 months. If we can trust Aligulac ratings then yes, the game has near perfect balance right now. Whether or not the individual match-ups have their own problems or not is a different matter entirely, though. I dislike watching Mech vZ atm, but that doesn't mean that the races are severely imbalanced right now. | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On October 09 2015 15:03 PinheadXXXXXX wrote: To elaborate on avilo's post about the strength of air units above: One thing that blizzard has done in HotS and LotV is severely screwed with the dynamic of long-range air to ground units. Units like the broodlord, the tempest, and to an extent the carrier, and now the liberator, require air-based responses most of the time if they are massed; killing these units with ground usually requires a hail-mary flank or blink underneath to pick them off. This is an arguably bad dynamic, and Blizzard has made it significantly worse by buffing broodlord range, buffing carriers, adding tempests, creating the oracle's revelation for the tempests, and adding liberators. These progressive buffs to long-range AtG units are perhaps the single most important factor in creating this shift to air that avilo mentions. This becomes a bad direction for blizzard to go in when despite forcing races into air-based armies, they do not make them interesting, and they insert hard counters to air (like parasitic bomb) into the game. Does it make even an iota of sense that zerg should have a unit that forces terran to make air or lose (the broodlord) but also has a spell that slaughters the air that terran must make? It's out of the game, but did the tempest's ability to kill units over time and force vikings/corruptors to commit into fights in storms make any sense, given that terran and zerg were forced to make air units to kill tempests? Of course not; none of these make any sense at all. But blizzard is, for some unknown reason, creating these situations with unbeatable compositions (carriers, broodlord-viper), turtle games (as avilo mentions), and plain boring unit interactions (anything with corruptors at all.) The solution to this would be to either nerf the air units in some way, lower their range (average range of these units has just slowly gone up for no apparent reason), or create better ground-based anti-air for every race. If Blizzard is going to put these strong long-range AtG units in the game, then every race needs something like the goliath, which provided good long-range GtA damage against armored. There isn't really much in the game like this currently, except maybe the cyclone, but it's awful. The thor had an attack that filled this role but it was always too weak to work properly and thors were too clunky to fight well anyway. If blizzard refuses to do that, then the least they could do would be to at least make the air vs air fights interesting and fair. Currently they are neither. I agree with you. The range of most air units is just way too much. BL cried for speed buff to be in the same category as BC and Carriers. The range buff made them much more easily to leave them alone in safe distance instead of microing them back a little... | ||
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Creager
Germany1889 Posts
On October 09 2015 15:29 Zealously wrote: One player has no impact on the grand scheme of balance whatsoever. Haha, could you please hop on your time machine and go tell Mvp of 2011? | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On October 09 2015 15:56 Nezgar wrote: Since it came up a few times, this is how the balance in the past 12 months looked like (according to Aligulac): That's... the most balanced period this game ever had. The win rates in each match-up have been between 46-53% the entire time. For comparison, this is how the entire graph for SC2 looks like: I've highlighted the past 12 months. If we can trust Aligulac ratings then yes, the game has near perfect balance right now. Whether or not the individual match-ups have their own problems or not is a different matter entirely, though. I dislike watching Mech vZ atm, but that doesn't mean that the races are severely imbalanced right now. Yeah, contrary to the common belief that everyone at blizzard is an incompetent blabbering idiot, I think they are able to do the sums and divisions to calculate balance stats. And I perfectly understand that they don't give numbers, as the above properties, again contrary to common belief, actually describes some vocal community members sometimes, and the numbers could be misinterpreted. I should apply for blizzard community communication, I'm getting the hang of this condescending tone! | ||
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