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On October 09 2015 22:56 FireCake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2015 22:32 Charoisaur wrote:On October 09 2015 18:58 FireCake wrote:On October 09 2015 16:48 cmdspinner1 wrote:On October 09 2015 09:30 Pugfarmer wrote:On October 09 2015 08:46 Charoisaur wrote:On October 09 2015 08:44 Pugfarmer wrote:
Just separate mech upgrades in HOTS and problem solved. Which problem? The problem with Mech being overpowered vs Zerg, and creating the same slow turtle games that the old swarm hosts did. Are there any statistics that prove that mech is overpowered vs. Zerg? A lot of people just claim that, but i don't get the impression from watching pro games. Why do you care so much about statistics ? They give no explanation about how the game works and thus how to change the game if it needs to be done. Mech is overpowered against zerg because : 1) Their late game army destroys with ease everything zerg has 2) It became very easy to play mech (combined upgrade, tanks buff, hellbat buff, SH nerf, banshee buff...) 3) Zerg has no tools to harass the terran player in a somehow cost-effective way Terrans players played bio everytime they play a zerg for years, suddendly terrans play mech... This strategy needs to be insanely broken for terran to do something else than 3 CCs into bio. wrong, zerg is op against mech because: 1) Their midgame destroys with ease everything mech has 2) it became very easy to play zerg (blinding cloud buff, roach burrow movespeed buff, mutalisk speed/regen, hydralisk speed, ultra buff) 3) terran has no tools to harass the zerg player in a somehow cost-effective way. see why you need statistics to bback your statements up? Without statistics everyone can just spew subjective bullshit. Fact is if statistics are fine the game isn't imbalanced. Doesn't matter if you have problems with mech on ladder. I also have problems with protoss but I don't say it's imba. I didn't explain the whole Match up because that would take a very long time, i have sum up the key points of why mech is broken. I have a very short argument that should convince you that there is a huge problem with mech play. Months ago, during the WCS season 2, i lost against a mech terran in RO16. He won 2 times with the pure mech camping style. The day after i talked with David Kim for hours about many things, especially game balancing. I asked him how can i beat a camping mech player ? I will give you his answer, you might not believe me but this is was he said : "don't worry FireCake, in legacy of the void this kind of play won't be possible". He didn't tell me that i should experiment this or this against mech. Instead he told me that he wanted to bring back SH but it was not possible because of the community being too harsh about SH. As a player it's my job to find ways to deal with strategies but after 2 years i have no idea how to beat mech, and i have seen no ways to deal win mech style. Show nested quote +On October 09 2015 22:37 Charoisaur wrote:On October 09 2015 22:29 FireCake wrote:On October 09 2015 20:31 cmdspinner1 wrote:On October 09 2015 18:58 FireCake wrote:On October 09 2015 16:48 cmdspinner1 wrote:On October 09 2015 09:30 Pugfarmer wrote:On October 09 2015 08:46 Charoisaur wrote:On October 09 2015 08:44 Pugfarmer wrote:
Just separate mech upgrades in HOTS and problem solved. Which problem? The problem with Mech being overpowered vs Zerg, and creating the same slow turtle games that the old swarm hosts did. Are there any statistics that prove that mech is overpowered vs. Zerg? A lot of people just claim that, but i don't get the impression from watching pro games. Why do you care so much about statistics ? They give no explanation about how the game works and thus how to change the game if it needs to be done. Mech is overpowered against zerg because : 1) Their late game army destroys with ease everything zerg has 2) It became very easy to play mech (combined upgrade, tanks buff, hellbat buff, SH nerf, banshee buff...) 3) Zerg has no tools to harass the terran player in a somehow cost-effective way Terrans players played bio everytime they play a zerg for years, suddendly terrans play mech... This strategy needs to be insanely broken for terran to do something else than 3 CCs into bio. Because statistics is the only reliable, non subjective way to measure balance. If Mech has <50% win percentage vs Zerg in high level HOTS games, mech is not imbalanced obviously. Before the broodlord/infestor era, zerg players were struggling to take a third base, so the winrate for zerg was pretty low against terran. But zergs learnt slowly to play broodlord infestor, and then the winrate in ZvT became absurd. The winrate was higher and higher for zerg because the opponent had no counterplay except killing the zerg before broodlord infestor (lol). This is the same thing with mech play, terrans players are slowly learning how to play mech against zerg. if you look at the winrate few months ago, mech players were very bad against zerg (mostly because only Avilo was playing mech :p), now you have the very best korean players playing battlecruiser camping bullshit. My point is that terran players might not win every TvZ yet (like zerg in the middle of Wol), but it doesn't mean this is balanced. Indeed, it is imbalanced because there are no counterplay. Your statistics will never show if there is a counterplay nor how to fix a broken match up, that's why they are useless. the difference is that mech has been beaten in lategame multiple times. Byul vs ty. Byul vs inno, flash vs curious g2. it's not like you insta-win with that composition once you reach it like it was with BL/infestor. You are proving my point. Terran players are still learning how to play mech, that's why sometimes they are losing because they are doing mistakes, not because zerg players are playing well. Look the broodlord infestor era, i am sure you know the game between Kiwikaki and Stephano were Kiwikaki won with a double vortex. Does it mean broodlord/infestor was a weak strategy ? No, Stephano was surprised because he didn't have yet much practice against Mothership play. Later, he won everything with broodlord/infestor.
I'm enjoying hearing your thoughts, FireCake.
I've been all-in LotV since the beta started, but I still enjoy watching SC2 quite a bit, and there is just not that much LotV content to watch (pro matches with quality casting, etc ...). So I've tuned in to a few HotS games, and where TvZ used to be my favorite match to watch--because it could go either way, was high-octane, and comebacks were possible--I cringe every time I see a TvZ because I know it's going to be a 45 minute lol-fest where neither side attacks until Zerg has a 10k 10k bank and the Terran has built 100+ Turrets, PFs everywhere, has no SCVs, and is building a mass raven mass BC army. Then some fights. Then a tech switch. Then some fights, and eventually one guy just taps out. It's silly and stupid.
I think the economy changes in LotV will largely prevent this from happening, but also because of the extreme hard counters to mech and Sky Terran that Zerg has at the moment (not to mention that Bio cannot kill upgraded Ultras without mass Ghost).
Many people have said HotS has achieved excellent balance, and this might be true, but the mech play in TvZ is the worst thing I've ever seen in the pro SC2 spectator scene. Have you been playing much LotV?
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As a Zerg i feel like Adepts are totally fine. Other units in the game need a workover though:
liberators shoot to fast and are to good in harrasment and lategame fights
mothership core strategys allow for abusive earlygame that nobody wants to watch, play or play against (like making 3 pylons at ur opponents ramp or early third and overcharge them)
and lurkers are simply to good vs protoss in early midgame (you can have like 10 lurkers when he has 2/3 disruptors and just push him regardless of the disrupters killing ur lurkers you have to many left over to kill all the ground army)
also i feel like ultralisks are slightly too good vs bio and to bad vs liberator counterplay
cyclones feel to weak vs the first arriving air units which i feel like they should be a counter against (my suggestion for cyclones would be: instead of the current lock on give them a CYCLE: let them have an abillity that when activated increases their attackspeed by 20% per sec for 4 sec. to a total of 80% and after that it reduces their movement speed for 4 seconds with a 16 second cooldown. That allows them to be a situation based hit and run unit that can be really powerful or extremly weak depending on the situation and it increases their defensive power when behind a wall or defending a mineral line vs an oracle. You could argubly still make an upgrade to nurf and buff the early or lategame usage.
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On October 09 2015 23:25 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2015 22:56 FireCake wrote:On October 09 2015 22:32 Charoisaur wrote:On October 09 2015 18:58 FireCake wrote:On October 09 2015 16:48 cmdspinner1 wrote:On October 09 2015 09:30 Pugfarmer wrote:On October 09 2015 08:46 Charoisaur wrote:On October 09 2015 08:44 Pugfarmer wrote:
Just separate mech upgrades in HOTS and problem solved. Which problem? The problem with Mech being overpowered vs Zerg, and creating the same slow turtle games that the old swarm hosts did. Are there any statistics that prove that mech is overpowered vs. Zerg? A lot of people just claim that, but i don't get the impression from watching pro games. Why do you care so much about statistics ? They give no explanation about how the game works and thus how to change the game if it needs to be done. Mech is overpowered against zerg because : 1) Their late game army destroys with ease everything zerg has 2) It became very easy to play mech (combined upgrade, tanks buff, hellbat buff, SH nerf, banshee buff...) 3) Zerg has no tools to harass the terran player in a somehow cost-effective way Terrans players played bio everytime they play a zerg for years, suddendly terrans play mech... This strategy needs to be insanely broken for terran to do something else than 3 CCs into bio. wrong, zerg is op against mech because: 1) Their midgame destroys with ease everything mech has 2) it became very easy to play zerg (blinding cloud buff, roach burrow movespeed buff, mutalisk speed/regen, hydralisk speed, ultra buff) 3) terran has no tools to harass the zerg player in a somehow cost-effective way. see why you need statistics to bback your statements up? Without statistics everyone can just spew subjective bullshit. Fact is if statistics are fine the game isn't imbalanced. Doesn't matter if you have problems with mech on ladder. I also have problems with protoss but I don't say it's imba. I didn't explain the whole Match up because that would take a very long time, i have sum up the key points of why mech is broken. I have a very short argument that should convince you that there is a huge problem with mech play. Months ago, during the WCS season 2, i lost against a mech terran in RO16. He won 2 times with the pure mech camping style. The day after i talked with David Kim for hours about many things, especially game balancing. I asked him how can i beat a camping mech player ? I will give you his answer, you might not believe me but this is was he said : "don't worry FireCake, in legacy of the void this kind of play won't be possible". He didn't tell me that i should experiment this or this against mech. Instead he told me that he wanted to bring back SH but it was not possible because of the community being too harsh about SH. As a player it's my job to find ways to deal with strategies but after 2 years i have no idea how to beat mech, and i have seen no ways to deal win mech style. On October 09 2015 22:37 Charoisaur wrote:On October 09 2015 22:29 FireCake wrote:On October 09 2015 20:31 cmdspinner1 wrote:On October 09 2015 18:58 FireCake wrote:On October 09 2015 16:48 cmdspinner1 wrote:On October 09 2015 09:30 Pugfarmer wrote:On October 09 2015 08:46 Charoisaur wrote:On October 09 2015 08:44 Pugfarmer wrote:
Just separate mech upgrades in HOTS and problem solved. Which problem? The problem with Mech being overpowered vs Zerg, and creating the same slow turtle games that the old swarm hosts did. Are there any statistics that prove that mech is overpowered vs. Zerg? A lot of people just claim that, but i don't get the impression from watching pro games. Why do you care so much about statistics ? They give no explanation about how the game works and thus how to change the game if it needs to be done. Mech is overpowered against zerg because : 1) Their late game army destroys with ease everything zerg has 2) It became very easy to play mech (combined upgrade, tanks buff, hellbat buff, SH nerf, banshee buff...) 3) Zerg has no tools to harass the terran player in a somehow cost-effective way Terrans players played bio everytime they play a zerg for years, suddendly terrans play mech... This strategy needs to be insanely broken for terran to do something else than 3 CCs into bio. Because statistics is the only reliable, non subjective way to measure balance. If Mech has <50% win percentage vs Zerg in high level HOTS games, mech is not imbalanced obviously. Before the broodlord/infestor era, zerg players were struggling to take a third base, so the winrate for zerg was pretty low against terran. But zergs learnt slowly to play broodlord infestor, and then the winrate in ZvT became absurd. The winrate was higher and higher for zerg because the opponent had no counterplay except killing the zerg before broodlord infestor (lol). This is the same thing with mech play, terrans players are slowly learning how to play mech against zerg. if you look at the winrate few months ago, mech players were very bad against zerg (mostly because only Avilo was playing mech :p), now you have the very best korean players playing battlecruiser camping bullshit. My point is that terran players might not win every TvZ yet (like zerg in the middle of Wol), but it doesn't mean this is balanced. Indeed, it is imbalanced because there are no counterplay. Your statistics will never show if there is a counterplay nor how to fix a broken match up, that's why they are useless. the difference is that mech has been beaten in lategame multiple times. Byul vs ty. Byul vs inno, flash vs curious g2. it's not like you insta-win with that composition once you reach it like it was with BL/infestor. You are proving my point. Terran players are still learning how to play mech, that's why sometimes they are losing because they are doing mistakes, not because zerg players are playing well. Look the broodlord infestor era, i am sure you know the game between Kiwikaki and Stephano were Kiwikaki won with a double vortex. Does it mean broodlord/infestor was a weak strategy ? No, Stephano was surprised because he didn't have yet much practice against Mothership play. Later, he won everything with broodlord/infestor. I'm enjoying hearing your thoughts, FireCake.
I am very happy to hear that.
At the beginning of the year i remember some people wishing i win in tournaments so they can hear my awful english in winner interview ^^
I played a lot of LoTv. I really enjoyed my switch to LoTv but i miss the changes that slowdown the economy. I think there are more diversity with a slower economy because it gives opportunity to both opponents to tech to higher tech units.
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Every race needs a stationary AA unit that they can move around in battle to gain that edge over the up-coming AIR POWER! cyclone, swarmhost, and a protoss unit, each with 5-7 range and any air that comes within the circle get auto targeted.
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On October 09 2015 18:42 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2015 18:03 Cascade wrote:On October 09 2015 17:50 Big J wrote:
@ the Mule nerf: I don't believe that this makes Terran weak and should be undone. Of course Terran is weaker, Zerg also feels mega-weak since the larva nerf.
But that's the nature of those things, you nerf the pace of the game and then you feel like you are behind all the time, but the truth is that you just haven't adjusted your inner Starcraft-clock to the new pace.
That being said I would like it if they also nerfed the zerg remax potential from injects, not just the injects. Put the maximum amount of larva a hatchery can hold down to a more restrictive number from 19, maybe 9 maybe even go to 6 (can't store more than 1inject).
Back to Terran: Terran is weak because there are obvious unit problems, at least in TvZ. Like the Ultralisk vs bio. Or the Viper vs Mech. I actually like the larva stack mechanic. It adds macro skill to zerg after 200 supply. It allows for the zerg end game composition to be a bit weaker and getting hard countered by other races end game composition (while the opposite wouldn't work well). It allows for more zergy style where you have to send waves and waves of units to win. But if you don't like that, and want three end game compositions of more equal strength, then yeah, lowering the Max larva is probably the way to go. I don't think the balance will ever work out well in the endgame without somewhat similar production and army strenght, given the SC2 economy. It's been a common theme in SC2 that players win matchups "because they got there" and other advantages couldn't be used properly against "that army". It's the root of all turtle games. It might end up balanced in some numbers, but you give players a clear incentive to play horseshit playstyles because they know their opponent has to come to them eventually.
I worry about that quite a bit.
"It's the root of all turtle games. It might end up balanced in some numbers, but you give players a clear incentive to play horseshit playstyles because they know their opponent has to come to them eventually."
Turtle into unstoppable is bad when it is encouraged on both sides of the game and ongoing counterplay doesn't work.
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On October 09 2015 21:57 owlman wrote:
I think blizzard intend to make adept a mineral harass unit only... i'm really disappointed.
I'd like to trade the shade for a combat boost increase any day ... they're not viable past early game and they 'll be even worse next patch.
So tired to play with blink stalker in every match up and seeing that on every GM stream aswell.
While I love the shade ability for filling in Protoss holes early game and general micro of it, what you say is also a big concern of mine. Adepts should be slightly more like Terran bio... flexible to harass or use in main army with support. Adepts are seeing less play. Protoss gateway is not flexible except for mass blink stalker with some tier 3 mixed in, basically the deathball. Blink stalkers are great and all, but let's see some better general usage capabilities of the adept so there are reasons to build them.
Midgame I'm going to make blink stalkers because you could face air units, you can use blink for survivability, etc. And if you go ground you are going to be making colossi and you have to have stalkers to keep colossi alive.
Late game I'm not going to warp in 12 adepts in my enemy's base, I'm going to warp in zealots b/c they can kill workers, buildings, static defense, and cost less.
When would I make adepts after early game now?
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@BigJ's comment: "Back to Terran: Terran is weak because there are obvious unit problems, at least in TvZ. Like the Ultralisk vs bio. Or the Viper vs Mech." ... I agree, and in TvP it is adept allins still skewing winrates because some people still don't know how to deal with them or don't recognize they are incoming soon enough or misidentify another all-in. However, I do think the liberator could be the answer against Ultras while you kite with bio (maybe throw some widowmines in there).
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@the many comments on air armies, I have many things to say.
The prevalence of Mass Air Armies that can't be killed from the ground are bad for the game. Why?
1. There is no way to get more out of your slow moving air units. There is no back and forth, counterplay, or micro. Slow moving capital ships are bad in low numbers, so you can't risk sending them out early. They force an air deathball.
2. Ground armies are about positioning and unit control. Big air armies are the opposite of that.
3. Air harassment makes sense for dynamic play. Mass air armies do not make sense for an enjoyable, dynamic game.
If ground armies were strong and just needed air armies as supplemental forces, then the game is still more positional based and fun with unit interactions and less a-move. Liberators and tempests are trying to be that supplemental role, but mass carriers and vipers overshadow how this works.
Protoss has a weaker late ground game in LOTV and carriers in the current form are there to keep their winrates up. Protoss tend to turtle to mass air lategame b/c Lurkers, Ultras, and Liberators are too scary. Plus muta and medivac threat encourage more stargate play which sets Protoss up for a mass air game later. Circular problem.
Zerg is having a similar problem against mass air armies, and Vipers + more air units are the most obvious way to deal with them. This is a circular problem.
Terrans will have starports in any build any matchup, and in LOTV tend to go liberators because they are great against ground and most air. Eventually this forces air armies from the enemy, which forces more air armies from Terran. Circular problem.
Everything is slowly pushing the meta to mass air armies.
It's this weird circular dynamic that we are trapped in. Break the circle, make ground to air attacks better across the board (or weaken mass air armies by weakening range or something), make gateway stronger for non-deathball ground battles in PvX so mass carriers or deathballs aren't the answer, and we are on the path to fixing it. This might mean even weaker remote warpins and weaker MSC. Weakening air might mean reducing range
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This is where Stationary Anti-Air defense comes into play that you can position yourself, and there can be a unit from each race that has this... my choices would be:
1. Cyclone
2. Swarmhost
3. Immortal.
These units could essentially play a roll of Stationary Ground to Air, to help compositions fight heavy air these units hold up pretty well under pressure(as it is *unit stats*). 5-7 range with an auto shot to anything inside that radius.
I want to promote this idea so much cause it seems legit and like most other RTS war games they have stationary AA units.
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On October 10 2015 00:57 Blacklizard wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2015 18:42 Big J wrote:On October 09 2015 18:03 Cascade wrote:On October 09 2015 17:50 Big J wrote:
@ the Mule nerf: I don't believe that this makes Terran weak and should be undone. Of course Terran is weaker, Zerg also feels mega-weak since the larva nerf.
But that's the nature of those things, you nerf the pace of the game and then you feel like you are behind all the time, but the truth is that you just haven't adjusted your inner Starcraft-clock to the new pace.
That being said I would like it if they also nerfed the zerg remax potential from injects, not just the injects. Put the maximum amount of larva a hatchery can hold down to a more restrictive number from 19, maybe 9 maybe even go to 6 (can't store more than 1inject).
Back to Terran: Terran is weak because there are obvious unit problems, at least in TvZ. Like the Ultralisk vs bio. Or the Viper vs Mech. I actually like the larva stack mechanic. It adds macro skill to zerg after 200 supply. It allows for the zerg end game composition to be a bit weaker and getting hard countered by other races end game composition (while the opposite wouldn't work well). It allows for more zergy style where you have to send waves and waves of units to win. But if you don't like that, and want three end game compositions of more equal strength, then yeah, lowering the Max larva is probably the way to go. I don't think the balance will ever work out well in the endgame without somewhat similar production and army strenght, given the SC2 economy. It's been a common theme in SC2 that players win matchups "because they got there" and other advantages couldn't be used properly against "that army". It's the root of all turtle games. It might end up balanced in some numbers, but you give players a clear incentive to play horseshit playstyles because they know their opponent has to come to them eventually. I worry about that quite a bit. "It's the root of all turtle games. It might end up balanced in some numbers, but you give players a clear incentive to play horseshit playstyles because they know their opponent has to come to them eventually." Turtle into unstoppable is bad when it is encouraged on both sides of the game and ongoing counterplay doesn't work.
I think the encouragement on both sides usually just means that there just aren't a lot of good attacking options. Like for Mech vs Zerg, the ways to play aggressive often hinge largely on a compositional mistake from the zerg or a semi-successful hellbat timing. But out of your own power there is little you can force on your opponent, bar hellion runbies in HotS. (could be much better in LotV with liberators and speed banshees I think)
And I think the encouragement to go for later technologies doesn't inherently imply turtling. TvT is a matchup that heavily rewards higher tech units like tanks and air units, but you are still encouraged to attack and play timings a lot. Similarily the Protoss matchups have traditionally had Protoss players teching a lot, but they also have rewarded Protoss to play a lot of timing builds. (not just the supercheesy ones; also rather scoutable 2base colossus, 3base pushes of all forms and just steady harassment play)
I think a lot of the badness/staleness of turtling is always just a product of "free" or "cheap" trading. Swarm Hosts, spellcasters like Infestors or Ravens, partly high templar or the current carrier, viper, partly just rather mobile highrange units like Tempests/Vikings all can/could kill without too much danger to the unit and make it too easy to be rewarded for always falling back into defenses after doing damage. If we removed that (and some of it has already been removed) then turtling vs turtling becomes a lot more fun, because there is no ultimate way to just chip away at the opponent. If you want to win you have to go out and fight. That's just it, no more option to launch free units and play for the mine out.
@the thing about the ultralisk. I agree that the liberator could work, at least on some maps. Also ghosts have become quite good from what I have seen with the recent patch. But at that moment in time I would give the advantage to zerg, even if it may balance out if the new tools given to terran really work out. But the popular parade pushing feels very allin in LotV to me at least, as the Terran eventually ends up on a mediocre tech setup to combat ultralisks.
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could be much better in LotV with liberators and speed banshees I think
Well yeah, because it is air and doesn't get detected by creep spread (i still hate the vision concept with it) and is harder to deal with in general.
I actually dislike the importance of air units in LOTV quite a bit.
Happy birthday!
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On October 10 2015 02:03 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 00:57 Blacklizard wrote:On October 09 2015 18:42 Big J wrote:On October 09 2015 18:03 Cascade wrote:On October 09 2015 17:50 Big J wrote:
@ the Mule nerf: I don't believe that this makes Terran weak and should be undone. Of course Terran is weaker, Zerg also feels mega-weak since the larva nerf.
But that's the nature of those things, you nerf the pace of the game and then you feel like you are behind all the time, but the truth is that you just haven't adjusted your inner Starcraft-clock to the new pace.
That being said I would like it if they also nerfed the zerg remax potential from injects, not just the injects. Put the maximum amount of larva a hatchery can hold down to a more restrictive number from 19, maybe 9 maybe even go to 6 (can't store more than 1inject).
Back to Terran: Terran is weak because there are obvious unit problems, at least in TvZ. Like the Ultralisk vs bio. Or the Viper vs Mech. I actually like the larva stack mechanic. It adds macro skill to zerg after 200 supply. It allows for the zerg end game composition to be a bit weaker and getting hard countered by other races end game composition (while the opposite wouldn't work well). It allows for more zergy style where you have to send waves and waves of units to win. But if you don't like that, and want three end game compositions of more equal strength, then yeah, lowering the Max larva is probably the way to go. I don't think the balance will ever work out well in the endgame without somewhat similar production and army strenght, given the SC2 economy. It's been a common theme in SC2 that players win matchups "because they got there" and other advantages couldn't be used properly against "that army". It's the root of all turtle games. It might end up balanced in some numbers, but you give players a clear incentive to play horseshit playstyles because they know their opponent has to come to them eventually. I worry about that quite a bit. "It's the root of all turtle games. It might end up balanced in some numbers, but you give players a clear incentive to play horseshit playstyles because they know their opponent has to come to them eventually." Turtle into unstoppable is bad when it is encouraged on both sides of the game and ongoing counterplay doesn't work. @the thing about the ultralisk. I agree that the liberator could work, at least on some maps. Also ghosts have become quite good from what I have seen with the recent patch. But at that moment in time I would give the advantage to zerg, even if it may balance out if the new tools given to terran really work out. But the popular parade pushing feels very allin in LotV to me at least, as the Terran eventually ends up on a mediocre tech setup to combat ultralisks.
I mean, this goes without saying, but the Liberator only works--against Ultras specifically--if the opponent willingly walks into the targeting area, and then stays there for long enough for each Ultra to take 4-6 shots from the Liberator (assuming some minor damage from other units). Then, the moment the Ultra ball is free of the targeting areas, it is quite impossible to re-target them. It is very, very, very difficult to defeat a Zerg who makes it to Ultras.
I think the reason you are seeing some Terran saying "Ghosts!" against Ultras--myself included--is because it actually does some damage instead of zero damage. Even a huge 3/3 MMM ball stutter-stepping back across the entire map will get slaughtered by Ultras, killing very few, or zero of the Ultras. And you're big-time fucked if they bring their mass Queens along (they always do). It feels so incredibly broken.
So yes, Ghosts are the best answer right now, but you can't just build a few Ghosts. You need mass Ghost with enough energy for multiple Snipes from each one. Then, of course, every single Snipe is manual cast on a specific Ultra (and let's face it, the Ultra ball, for the most part is 1a, when compared to a Ghost counterplay). You can't react with Ghosts either, you have to confirm, for certain, that Ultras are coming, and start preparing your Ghost ball well in advance. And if they don't build Ultras, and you're stuck with mass Ghost, well ...
RE: Parade Pushing - doesn't work, at least in my experience. Creep spread is way too impossible to deal with, especially with the current MULE nerf. But keep in mind, I play Archon. Creep is fucking OP in Archon mode, my god ... But that's just me QQ'ing. In all seriousness, you just have to focus on killing the fourth or fifth hatch, over and over again, and then not dying to the Ultra switch in order to starve out the Zerg. So impossible to kill a Zerg it feels.
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On October 09 2015 22:49 91matt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2015 22:32 Charoisaur wrote:On October 09 2015 18:58 FireCake wrote:On October 09 2015 16:48 cmdspinner1 wrote:On October 09 2015 09:30 Pugfarmer wrote:On October 09 2015 08:46 Charoisaur wrote:On October 09 2015 08:44 Pugfarmer wrote:
Just separate mech upgrades in HOTS and problem solved. Which problem? The problem with Mech being overpowered vs Zerg, and creating the same slow turtle games that the old swarm hosts did. Are there any statistics that prove that mech is overpowered vs. Zerg? A lot of people just claim that, but i don't get the impression from watching pro games. Why do you care so much about statistics ? They give no explanation about how the game works and thus how to change the game if it needs to be done. Mech is overpowered against zerg because : 1) Their late game army destroys with ease everything zerg has 2) It became very easy to play mech (combined upgrade, tanks buff, hellbat buff, SH nerf, banshee buff...) 3) Zerg has no tools to harass the terran player in a somehow cost-effective way Terrans players played bio everytime they play a zerg for years, suddendly terrans play mech... This strategy needs to be insanely broken for terran to do something else than 3 CCs into bio. wrong, zerg is op against mech because: 1) Their midgame destroys with ease everything mech has 2) it became very easy to play zerg (blinding cloud buff, roach burrow movespeed buff, mutalisk speed/regen, hydralisk speed, ultra buff) 3) terran has no tools to harass the zerg player in a somehow cost-effective way. see why you need statistics to bback your statements up? Without statistics everyone can just spew subjective bullshit. Fact is if statistics are fine the game isn't imbalanced. Doesn't matter if you have problems with mech on ladder. I also have problems with protoss but I don't say it's imba. There isn't a single high level zerg that doesn't think mech is too strong (in hots). Call it subjectivity but everyone hates playing against it. You don't need statistics on this one, you just need to play or watch the game. Mech is completely absurd. It's things like Terran mech in HoTS which drive good players away from playing the game. BL/Infestor wasn't unbeatable by any stretch of the imagination, but it was absurd and bad for the game. Same with Terran mech. One race having the ability to play ultra defensive and build a godlike army is absolutely cancerous.
What ppl consider a problem with mech is a problem based on mules actually. If mules were removed or weakened then mech couldn't use over supply and at the same time harrassment on T eco would matter more than it does now. The natural weakness of mech is to have the terran split its army up.
I think it is not enough time now before release to do big changes. Mid and long term Blizzard needs to find a way to remove mules and potentially replace them with anything else and adapt other race's MM. Mules are the most detrimental unit to the game.
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Kinda funny that the one pro who's only claim to fame is like 3 hour long swarmhost stalemates is complaining about 45 mech tvz games.
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On October 10 2015 08:31 johnbongham wrote:
Kinda funny that the one pro who's only claim to fame is like 3 hour long swarmhost stalemates is complaining about 45 mech tvz games.
He is complaining about balance. About the game being unfair. Right or wrong, that's a complaint of completely different nature than you picture about not having enough patience skill.
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On October 10 2015 08:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 08:31 johnbongham wrote:
Kinda funny that the one pro who's only claim to fame is like 3 hour long swarmhost stalemates is complaining about 45 mech tvz games. He is complaining about balance. About the game being unfair. Right or wrong, that's a complaint of completely different nature than you picture about not having enough patience skill.
I don't remember seeing him complain when he was able to abuse swarmhosts in pretty much all 3 matchups to the detriment of pretty much any tournament he was playing in. Ill take a 45min mech game over a 2-3 hour free-unit fest every single time. I also dont believe the winrates suggest any serious imbalance. Late game tvp has been pretty screwed up since WOL but terrans were told they just had to deal with it and win in the midgame. Not only that but I see zergs beating maxed mech armies often so just because it takes longer than a bio game doesn't make it imbalanced.
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On October 10 2015 09:23 johnbongham wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 08:37 Big J wrote:On October 10 2015 08:31 johnbongham wrote:
Kinda funny that the one pro who's only claim to fame is like 3 hour long swarmhost stalemates is complaining about 45 mech tvz games. He is complaining about balance. About the game being unfair. Right or wrong, that's a complaint of completely different nature than you picture about not having enough patience skill. I don't remember seeing him complain when he was able to abuse swarmhosts in pretty much all 3 matchups to the detriment of pretty much any tournament he was playing in. Ill take a 45min mech game over a 2-3 hour free-unit fest every single time. I also dont believe the winrates suggest any serious imbalance. Late game tvp has been pretty screwed up since WOL but terrans were told they just had to deal with it and win in the midgame. Not only that but I see zergs beating maxed mech armies often so just because it takes longer than a bio game doesn't make it imbalanced.
You're getting silly. Of course he was not complaining when he thought that previously it was balanced and then it wasn't. You'r just fucking with words to make you sound clever, but what you do is a prime example of bad discussion style.
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On October 10 2015 09:29 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 09:23 johnbongham wrote:On October 10 2015 08:37 Big J wrote:On October 10 2015 08:31 johnbongham wrote:
Kinda funny that the one pro who's only claim to fame is like 3 hour long swarmhost stalemates is complaining about 45 mech tvz games. He is complaining about balance. About the game being unfair. Right or wrong, that's a complaint of completely different nature than you picture about not having enough patience skill. I don't remember seeing him complain when he was able to abuse swarmhosts in pretty much all 3 matchups to the detriment of pretty much any tournament he was playing in. Ill take a 45min mech game over a 2-3 hour free-unit fest every single time. I also dont believe the winrates suggest any serious imbalance. Late game tvp has been pretty screwed up since WOL but terrans were told they just had to deal with it and win in the midgame. Not only that but I see zergs beating maxed mech armies often so just because it takes longer than a bio game doesn't make it imbalanced. You're getting silly. Of course he was not complaining when he thought that previously it was balanced and then it wasn't. You'r just fucking with words to make you sound clever, but what you do is a prime example of bad discussion style.
And you are just avoiding making an actual argument in the same way he is. There is pretty much no data to backup the argument that mech in tvz is op. Sure, games take longer than we have been used to but its not given that terran will win the majority of the time. Usually, the better player wins.
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On October 10 2015 09:41 johnbongham wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 09:29 Big J wrote:On October 10 2015 09:23 johnbongham wrote:On October 10 2015 08:37 Big J wrote:On October 10 2015 08:31 johnbongham wrote:
Kinda funny that the one pro who's only claim to fame is like 3 hour long swarmhost stalemates is complaining about 45 mech tvz games. He is complaining about balance. About the game being unfair. Right or wrong, that's a complaint of completely different nature than you picture about not having enough patience skill. I don't remember seeing him complain when he was able to abuse swarmhosts in pretty much all 3 matchups to the detriment of pretty much any tournament he was playing in. Ill take a 45min mech game over a 2-3 hour free-unit fest every single time. I also dont believe the winrates suggest any serious imbalance. Late game tvp has been pretty screwed up since WOL but terrans were told they just had to deal with it and win in the midgame. Not only that but I see zergs beating maxed mech armies often so just because it takes longer than a bio game doesn't make it imbalanced. You're getting silly. Of course he was not complaining when he thought that previously it was balanced and then it wasn't. You'r just fucking with words to make you sound clever, but what you do is a prime example of bad discussion style. And you are just avoiding making an actual argument in the same way he is. There is pretty much no data to backup the argument that mech in tvz is op. Sure, games take longer than we have been used to but its not given that terran will win the majority of the time. Usually, the better player wins.
Stop with that silly bullshit about games taking longer. You're the only one who brings that argument to the table. You're the only one here that whined about the notion that a game can take too long and trying to make it sound like anyone else does is a plain strawman. Firecake literally said that he thinks the game is imbalanced and you keep on distracting with gamelength perceptions. That he doesn't have data to support it is a different discussion, call him out all you want for it, though he already gave his opinion on that matter. But that was not your original statemsnt, it was some silly bullshit about gamelength comparisons.
And since you want my opinion, I think if you are not doing what's the best strategy even if it takes a "2-3 hour free-unit fest every single time" you are a shit strategy player and should lose every single game to a 1APM player whose only skill it is to have the will to do whatever it takes.
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On October 10 2015 06:24 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2015 22:49 91matt wrote:On October 09 2015 22:32 Charoisaur wrote:On October 09 2015 18:58 FireCake wrote:On October 09 2015 16:48 cmdspinner1 wrote:On October 09 2015 09:30 Pugfarmer wrote:On October 09 2015 08:46 Charoisaur wrote:On October 09 2015 08:44 Pugfarmer wrote:
Just separate mech upgrades in HOTS and problem solved. Which problem? The problem with Mech being overpowered vs Zerg, and creating the same slow turtle games that the old swarm hosts did. Are there any statistics that prove that mech is overpowered vs. Zerg? A lot of people just claim that, but i don't get the impression from watching pro games. Why do you care so much about statistics ? They give no explanation about how the game works and thus how to change the game if it needs to be done. Mech is overpowered against zerg because : 1) Their late game army destroys with ease everything zerg has 2) It became very easy to play mech (combined upgrade, tanks buff, hellbat buff, SH nerf, banshee buff...) 3) Zerg has no tools to harass the terran player in a somehow cost-effective way Terrans players played bio everytime they play a zerg for years, suddendly terrans play mech... This strategy needs to be insanely broken for terran to do something else than 3 CCs into bio. wrong, zerg is op against mech because: 1) Their midgame destroys with ease everything mech has 2) it became very easy to play zerg (blinding cloud buff, roach burrow movespeed buff, mutalisk speed/regen, hydralisk speed, ultra buff) 3) terran has no tools to harass the zerg player in a somehow cost-effective way. see why you need statistics to bback your statements up? Without statistics everyone can just spew subjective bullshit. Fact is if statistics are fine the game isn't imbalanced. Doesn't matter if you have problems with mech on ladder. I also have problems with protoss but I don't say it's imba. There isn't a single high level zerg that doesn't think mech is too strong (in hots). Call it subjectivity but everyone hates playing against it. You don't need statistics on this one, you just need to play or watch the game. Mech is completely absurd. It's things like Terran mech in HoTS which drive good players away from playing the game. BL/Infestor wasn't unbeatable by any stretch of the imagination, but it was absurd and bad for the game. Same with Terran mech. One race having the ability to play ultra defensive and build a godlike army is absolutely cancerous. What ppl consider a problem with mech is a problem based on mules actually. If mules were removed or weakened then mech couldn't use over supply and at the same time harrassment on T eco would matter more than it does now. The natural weakness of mech is to have the terran split its army up. I think it is not enough time now before release to do big changes. Mid and long term Blizzard needs to find a way to remove mules and potentially replace them with anything else and adapt other race's MM. Mules are the most detrimental unit to the game.
People throw away scv in lotv? I haven't done it yet since I find them too valuable to keep with reduced income and all..
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EPT
