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On October 09 2015 08:50 wongfeihung wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2015 08:44 Pugfarmer wrote:
Just separate mech upgrades in HOTS and problem solved. And change Bunker build time.
Yes. This and barracks before supply
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On October 09 2015 20:36 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2015 08:50 wongfeihung wrote:On October 09 2015 08:44 Pugfarmer wrote:
Just separate mech upgrades in HOTS and problem solved. And change Bunker build time. Yes. This and barracks before supply
Bunkers should give supply
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On October 09 2015 20:31 cmdspinner1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2015 18:58 FireCake wrote:On October 09 2015 16:48 cmdspinner1 wrote:On October 09 2015 09:30 Pugfarmer wrote:On October 09 2015 08:46 Charoisaur wrote:On October 09 2015 08:44 Pugfarmer wrote:
Just separate mech upgrades in HOTS and problem solved. Which problem? The problem with Mech being overpowered vs Zerg, and creating the same slow turtle games that the old swarm hosts did. Are there any statistics that prove that mech is overpowered vs. Zerg? A lot of people just claim that, but i don't get the impression from watching pro games. Why do you care so much about statistics ? They give no explanation about how the game works and thus how to change the game if it needs to be done. Mech is overpowered against zerg because : 1) Their late game army destroys with ease everything zerg has 2) It became very easy to play mech (combined upgrade, tanks buff, hellbat buff, SH nerf, banshee buff...) 3) Zerg has no tools to harass the terran player in a somehow cost-effective way Terrans players played bio everytime they play a zerg for years, suddendly terrans play mech... This strategy needs to be insanely broken for terran to do something else than 3 CCs into bio. Because statistics is the only reliable, non subjective way to measure balance. If Mech has <50% win percentage vs Zerg in high level HOTS games, mech is not imbalanced obviously.
Tell that to WoL where Brood Lord - Infestor composition had ~50% WR because a lot of Zergs were dying to Immortal/Sentry all-ins before they even got there. It still didn't mean that it was balanced, on the contrary it was very very boring and imbalanced.
Looking just at the statistics is very narrow way of doing things if you don't care about other factors.
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On October 09 2015 20:53 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2015 20:31 cmdspinner1 wrote:On October 09 2015 18:58 FireCake wrote:On October 09 2015 16:48 cmdspinner1 wrote:On October 09 2015 09:30 Pugfarmer wrote:On October 09 2015 08:46 Charoisaur wrote:On October 09 2015 08:44 Pugfarmer wrote:
Just separate mech upgrades in HOTS and problem solved. Which problem? The problem with Mech being overpowered vs Zerg, and creating the same slow turtle games that the old swarm hosts did. Are there any statistics that prove that mech is overpowered vs. Zerg? A lot of people just claim that, but i don't get the impression from watching pro games. Why do you care so much about statistics ? They give no explanation about how the game works and thus how to change the game if it needs to be done. Mech is overpowered against zerg because : 1) Their late game army destroys with ease everything zerg has 2) It became very easy to play mech (combined upgrade, tanks buff, hellbat buff, SH nerf, banshee buff...) 3) Zerg has no tools to harass the terran player in a somehow cost-effective way Terrans players played bio everytime they play a zerg for years, suddendly terrans play mech... This strategy needs to be insanely broken for terran to do something else than 3 CCs into bio. Because statistics is the only reliable, non subjective way to measure balance. If Mech has <50% win percentage vs Zerg in high level HOTS games, mech is not imbalanced obviously. Tell that to WoL where Brood Lord - Infestor composition had ~50% WR because a lot of Zergs were dying to Immortal/Sentry all-ins before they even got there. It still didn't mean that it was balanced, on the contrary it was very very boring and imbalanced. Looking just at the statistics is very narrow way of doing things if you don't care about other factors.
You need to look at the right statistics of course. If you want to to find out whether Bl/Infestor is imbalanced, you need to pick the games where the zerg reaches that composition. Mech games could be classified as games that take longer than e.g. 10 minutes and only one baracks is built or no stim was researched etc... If you want to find out if the ulta lategame mech composition is overpowered vs. zerg, you have to look at the games that qualify. So I don't think it is narrow minded to only look at statistics.
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Players have to remember that if it took a few years for HOTS to reach its good balancing, it may just take until end of 2017 or even 2018 before LOTV will be at its best.
With respect to the cyclone, my thoughts are that it is such an "all-around" unit in terms of its function that it should be possible to modify it or balance it to be a useful unit. I would think that balancing a unit such as a Stalker (for example) would be more easy than one such as the Disruptor where the dynamics of how it interacts in the game might change drastically from one situation to the next. The cyclone should be fairly easy to work into the gameplan.
Also, compare the use of the cyclone to the Hellion, reaper or roach - it's not a unit that needs to be completely useful at every stage of the game, including the late game. It seems to be a great stepping stone to plug some holes within early to mid-game Terran defense and aggression (particularly with Mech).
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To elaborate on avilo's post about the strength of air units above:
One thing that blizzard has done in HotS and LotV is severely screwed with the dynamic of long-range air to ground units. Units like the broodlord, the tempest, and to an extent the carrier, and now the liberator, require air-based responses most of the time if they are massed; killing these units with ground usually requires a hail-mary flank or blink underneath to pick them off.
This is an arguably bad dynamic, and Blizzard has made it significantly worse by buffing broodlord range, buffing carriers, adding tempests, creating the oracle's revelation for the tempests, and adding liberators. These progressive buffs to long-range AtG units are perhaps the single most important factor in creating this shift to air that avilo mentions.
Well there are a few problems with how Blizzard think in terms of design here. First of, they for some reason like long-run free units where the opponent cannot attack the enemy unit. In HOTS we saw the Swarm Host and Tempest be introduced. Then in LOTV it got a ton worse with Cyclone (constant kiting), changed Carrier, new Disruptor and the new Swarm Host still suffer from this issue.
From my experience interactions are the most fun when both players can kill the enemy units. That's the case when you need to take a "risk" when attacking with the unit and you are not overly incentived to just run away all day.
Secondly, there is this specific issue with air-to-ground. I firmly belive that the model of having a ground unit as anti-air vs ARMORED AIR units is the best solution. That's what we saw in BW and it worked a ton better. In Sc2, however, you need Tempests, Vikings and Corrupters to counter mass air units.
The issue with the Sc2-approach is twofold:
1. The micro interactions are almost always going to be a-move vs a-move since you can't take advantage of terrain.
2. In temrs of balance since the air AA units are more mobile then ground AA units, they need to be less cost effective. So whereas a BW terran could defend vs Carriers with 50% of the army value of Goliaths, you need much closer to 100% in sc2. That makes the game too much about scaling or killing the opponent before he reaches critical mass.
My suggested solution has for a while been to make the Thor faster and more repsonsive and make it the primary anti-armored with the Viking better vs light air units.
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On October 09 2015 20:53 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2015 20:31 cmdspinner1 wrote:On October 09 2015 18:58 FireCake wrote:On October 09 2015 16:48 cmdspinner1 wrote:On October 09 2015 09:30 Pugfarmer wrote:On October 09 2015 08:46 Charoisaur wrote:On October 09 2015 08:44 Pugfarmer wrote:
Just separate mech upgrades in HOTS and problem solved. Which problem? The problem with Mech being overpowered vs Zerg, and creating the same slow turtle games that the old swarm hosts did. Are there any statistics that prove that mech is overpowered vs. Zerg? A lot of people just claim that, but i don't get the impression from watching pro games. Why do you care so much about statistics ? They give no explanation about how the game works and thus how to change the game if it needs to be done. Mech is overpowered against zerg because : 1) Their late game army destroys with ease everything zerg has 2) It became very easy to play mech (combined upgrade, tanks buff, hellbat buff, SH nerf, banshee buff...) 3) Zerg has no tools to harass the terran player in a somehow cost-effective way Terrans players played bio everytime they play a zerg for years, suddendly terrans play mech... This strategy needs to be insanely broken for terran to do something else than 3 CCs into bio. Because statistics is the only reliable, non subjective way to measure balance. If Mech has <50% win percentage vs Zerg in high level HOTS games, mech is not imbalanced obviously. Tell that to WoL where Brood Lord - Infestor composition had ~50% WR because a lot of Zergs were dying to Immortal/Sentry all-ins before they even got there. It still didn't mean that it was balanced, on the contrary it was very very boring and imbalanced. Looking just at the statistics is very narrow way of doing things if you don't care about other factors.
Statistically speaking it was still imbalanced though. Since zerg dominated terran so badly, it meant that more and more zerg players qualified to tournaments = god their games into the Aliguac database. This inflated the average skill level of zerg players, meaning that lesser skilled players were being matched up against better protoss (and especially better terran players).
Under those circumstances, the expected win/rate (given perfect balance) is not 50%.
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I think blizzard intend to make adept a mineral harass unit only... i'm really disappointed.
I'd like to trade the shade for a combat boost increase any day ... they're not viable past early game and they 'll be even worse next patch.
So tired to play with blink stalker in every match up and seeing that on every GM stream aswell.
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On October 09 2015 20:31 cmdspinner1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2015 18:58 FireCake wrote:On October 09 2015 16:48 cmdspinner1 wrote:On October 09 2015 09:30 Pugfarmer wrote:On October 09 2015 08:46 Charoisaur wrote:On October 09 2015 08:44 Pugfarmer wrote:
Just separate mech upgrades in HOTS and problem solved. Which problem? The problem with Mech being overpowered vs Zerg, and creating the same slow turtle games that the old swarm hosts did. Are there any statistics that prove that mech is overpowered vs. Zerg? A lot of people just claim that, but i don't get the impression from watching pro games. Why do you care so much about statistics ? They give no explanation about how the game works and thus how to change the game if it needs to be done. Mech is overpowered against zerg because : 1) Their late game army destroys with ease everything zerg has 2) It became very easy to play mech (combined upgrade, tanks buff, hellbat buff, SH nerf, banshee buff...) 3) Zerg has no tools to harass the terran player in a somehow cost-effective way Terrans players played bio everytime they play a zerg for years, suddendly terrans play mech... This strategy needs to be insanely broken for terran to do something else than 3 CCs into bio. Because statistics is the only reliable, non subjective way to measure balance. If Mech has <50% win percentage vs Zerg in high level HOTS games, mech is not imbalanced obviously.
Before the broodlord/infestor era, zerg players were struggling to take a third base, so the winrate for zerg was pretty low against terran.
But zergs learnt slowly to play broodlord infestor, and then the winrate in ZvT became absurd.
The winrate was higher and higher for zerg because the opponent had no counterplay except killing the zerg before broodlord infestor (lol).
This is the same thing with mech play, terrans players are slowly learning how to play mech against zerg. if you look at the winrate few months ago, mech players were very bad against zerg (mostly because only Avilo was playing mech :p), now you have the very best korean players playing battlecruiser camping bullshit.
My point is that terran players might not win every TvZ yet (like zerg in the middle of Wol), but it doesn't mean this is balanced. Indeed, it is imbalanced because there are no counterplay. Your statistics will never show if there is a counterplay nor how to fix a broken match up, that's why they are useless.
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On October 09 2015 18:58 FireCake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2015 16:48 cmdspinner1 wrote:On October 09 2015 09:30 Pugfarmer wrote:On October 09 2015 08:46 Charoisaur wrote:On October 09 2015 08:44 Pugfarmer wrote:
Just separate mech upgrades in HOTS and problem solved. Which problem? The problem with Mech being overpowered vs Zerg, and creating the same slow turtle games that the old swarm hosts did. Are there any statistics that prove that mech is overpowered vs. Zerg? A lot of people just claim that, but i don't get the impression from watching pro games. Why do you care so much about statistics ? They give no explanation about how the game works and thus how to change the game if it needs to be done. Mech is overpowered against zerg because : 1) Their late game army destroys with ease everything zerg has 2) It became very easy to play mech (combined upgrade, tanks buff, hellbat buff, SH nerf, banshee buff...) 3) Zerg has no tools to harass the terran player in a somehow cost-effective way Terrans players played bio everytime they play a zerg for years, suddendly terrans play mech... This strategy needs to be insanely broken for terran to do something else than 3 CCs into bio.
wrong, zerg is op against mech because:
1) Their midgame destroys with ease everything mech has
2) it became very easy to play zerg (blinding cloud buff, roach burrow movespeed buff, mutalisk speed/regen, hydralisk speed, ultra buff)
3) terran has no tools to harass the zerg player in a somehow cost-effective way.
see why you need statistics to bback your statements up?
Without statistics everyone can just spew subjective bullshit. Fact is if statistics are fine the game isn't imbalanced. Doesn't matter if you have problems with mech on ladder. I also have problems with protoss but I don't say it's imba.
Edit: just saw who wrote that so scrap the comment with the ladder.
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good you want to revert mules as they were
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On October 09 2015 22:29 FireCake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2015 20:31 cmdspinner1 wrote:On October 09 2015 18:58 FireCake wrote:On October 09 2015 16:48 cmdspinner1 wrote:On October 09 2015 09:30 Pugfarmer wrote:On October 09 2015 08:46 Charoisaur wrote:On October 09 2015 08:44 Pugfarmer wrote:
Just separate mech upgrades in HOTS and problem solved. Which problem? The problem with Mech being overpowered vs Zerg, and creating the same slow turtle games that the old swarm hosts did. Are there any statistics that prove that mech is overpowered vs. Zerg? A lot of people just claim that, but i don't get the impression from watching pro games. Why do you care so much about statistics ? They give no explanation about how the game works and thus how to change the game if it needs to be done. Mech is overpowered against zerg because : 1) Their late game army destroys with ease everything zerg has 2) It became very easy to play mech (combined upgrade, tanks buff, hellbat buff, SH nerf, banshee buff...) 3) Zerg has no tools to harass the terran player in a somehow cost-effective way Terrans players played bio everytime they play a zerg for years, suddendly terrans play mech... This strategy needs to be insanely broken for terran to do something else than 3 CCs into bio. Because statistics is the only reliable, non subjective way to measure balance. If Mech has <50% win percentage vs Zerg in high level HOTS games, mech is not imbalanced obviously. Before the broodlord/infestor era, zerg players were struggling to take a third base, so the winrate for zerg was pretty low against terran. But zergs learnt slowly to play broodlord infestor, and then the winrate in ZvT became absurd. The winrate was higher and higher for zerg because the opponent had no counterplay except killing the zerg before broodlord infestor (lol). This is the same thing with mech play, terrans players are slowly learning how to play mech against zerg. if you look at the winrate few months ago, mech players were very bad against zerg (mostly because only Avilo was playing mech :p), now you have the very best korean players playing battlecruiser camping bullshit. My point is that terran players might not win every TvZ yet (like zerg in the middle of Wol), but it doesn't mean this is balanced. Indeed, it is imbalanced because there are no counterplay. Your statistics will never show if there is a counterplay nor how to fix a broken match up, that's why they are useless.
the difference is that mech has been beaten in lategame multiple times. Byul vs ty. Byul vs inno, flash vs curious g2.
it's not like you insta-win with that composition once you reach it like it was with BL/infestor.
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On October 09 2015 22:32 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2015 18:58 FireCake wrote:On October 09 2015 16:48 cmdspinner1 wrote:On October 09 2015 09:30 Pugfarmer wrote:On October 09 2015 08:46 Charoisaur wrote:On October 09 2015 08:44 Pugfarmer wrote:
Just separate mech upgrades in HOTS and problem solved. Which problem? The problem with Mech being overpowered vs Zerg, and creating the same slow turtle games that the old swarm hosts did. Are there any statistics that prove that mech is overpowered vs. Zerg? A lot of people just claim that, but i don't get the impression from watching pro games. Why do you care so much about statistics ? They give no explanation about how the game works and thus how to change the game if it needs to be done. Mech is overpowered against zerg because : 1) Their late game army destroys with ease everything zerg has 2) It became very easy to play mech (combined upgrade, tanks buff, hellbat buff, SH nerf, banshee buff...) 3) Zerg has no tools to harass the terran player in a somehow cost-effective way Terrans players played bio everytime they play a zerg for years, suddendly terrans play mech... This strategy needs to be insanely broken for terran to do something else than 3 CCs into bio. wrong, zerg is op against mech because: 1) Their midgame destroys with ease everything mech has 2) it became very easy to play zerg (blinding cloud buff, roach burrow movespeed buff, mutalisk speed/regen, hydralisk speed, ultra buff) 3) terran has no tools to harass the zerg player in a somehow cost-effective way. see why you need statistics to bback your statements up? Without statistics everyone can just spew subjective bullshit. Fact is if statistics are fine the game isn't imbalanced. Doesn't matter if you have problems with mech on ladder. I also have problems with protoss but I don't say it's imba.
There isn't a single high level zerg that doesn't think mech is too strong (in hots). Call it subjectivity but everyone hates playing against it. You don't need statistics on this one, you just need to play or watch the game. Mech is completely absurd. It's things like Terran mech in HoTS which drive good players away from playing the game. BL/Infestor wasn't unbeatable by any stretch of the imagination, but it was absurd and bad for the game. Same with Terran mech.
One race having the ability to play ultra defensive and build a godlike army is absolutely cancerous.
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On October 09 2015 22:32 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2015 18:58 FireCake wrote:On October 09 2015 16:48 cmdspinner1 wrote:On October 09 2015 09:30 Pugfarmer wrote:On October 09 2015 08:46 Charoisaur wrote:On October 09 2015 08:44 Pugfarmer wrote:
Just separate mech upgrades in HOTS and problem solved. Which problem? The problem with Mech being overpowered vs Zerg, and creating the same slow turtle games that the old swarm hosts did. Are there any statistics that prove that mech is overpowered vs. Zerg? A lot of people just claim that, but i don't get the impression from watching pro games. Why do you care so much about statistics ? They give no explanation about how the game works and thus how to change the game if it needs to be done. Mech is overpowered against zerg because : 1) Their late game army destroys with ease everything zerg has 2) It became very easy to play mech (combined upgrade, tanks buff, hellbat buff, SH nerf, banshee buff...) 3) Zerg has no tools to harass the terran player in a somehow cost-effective way Terrans players played bio everytime they play a zerg for years, suddendly terrans play mech... This strategy needs to be insanely broken for terran to do something else than 3 CCs into bio. wrong, zerg is op against mech because: 1) Their midgame destroys with ease everything mech has 2) it became very easy to play zerg (blinding cloud buff, roach burrow movespeed buff, mutalisk speed/regen, hydralisk speed, ultra buff) 3) terran has no tools to harass the zerg player in a somehow cost-effective way. see why you need statistics to bback your statements up? Without statistics everyone can just spew subjective bullshit. Fact is if statistics are fine the game isn't imbalanced. Doesn't matter if you have problems with mech on ladder. I also have problems with protoss but I don't say it's imba.
I didn't explain the whole Match up because that would take a very long time, i have sum up the key points of why mech is broken.
I have a very short argument that should convince you that there is a huge problem with mech play.
Months ago, during the WCS season 2, i lost against a mech terran in RO16.
He won 2 times with the pure mech camping style.
The day after i talked with David Kim for hours about many things, especially game balancing.
I asked him how can i beat a camping mech player ?
I will give you his answer, you might not believe me but this is was he said :
"don't worry FireCake, in legacy of the void this kind of play won't be possible".
He didn't tell me that i should experiment this or this against mech. Instead he told me that he wanted to bring back SH but it was not possible because of the community being too harsh about SH.
As a player it's my job to find ways to deal with strategies but after 2 years i have no idea how to beat mech, and i have seen no ways to deal win mech style.
On October 09 2015 22:37 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2015 22:29 FireCake wrote:On October 09 2015 20:31 cmdspinner1 wrote:On October 09 2015 18:58 FireCake wrote:On October 09 2015 16:48 cmdspinner1 wrote:On October 09 2015 09:30 Pugfarmer wrote:On October 09 2015 08:46 Charoisaur wrote:On October 09 2015 08:44 Pugfarmer wrote:
Just separate mech upgrades in HOTS and problem solved. Which problem? The problem with Mech being overpowered vs Zerg, and creating the same slow turtle games that the old swarm hosts did. Are there any statistics that prove that mech is overpowered vs. Zerg? A lot of people just claim that, but i don't get the impression from watching pro games. Why do you care so much about statistics ? They give no explanation about how the game works and thus how to change the game if it needs to be done. Mech is overpowered against zerg because : 1) Their late game army destroys with ease everything zerg has 2) It became very easy to play mech (combined upgrade, tanks buff, hellbat buff, SH nerf, banshee buff...) 3) Zerg has no tools to harass the terran player in a somehow cost-effective way Terrans players played bio everytime they play a zerg for years, suddendly terrans play mech... This strategy needs to be insanely broken for terran to do something else than 3 CCs into bio. Because statistics is the only reliable, non subjective way to measure balance. If Mech has <50% win percentage vs Zerg in high level HOTS games, mech is not imbalanced obviously. Before the broodlord/infestor era, zerg players were struggling to take a third base, so the winrate for zerg was pretty low against terran. But zergs learnt slowly to play broodlord infestor, and then the winrate in ZvT became absurd. The winrate was higher and higher for zerg because the opponent had no counterplay except killing the zerg before broodlord infestor (lol). This is the same thing with mech play, terrans players are slowly learning how to play mech against zerg. if you look at the winrate few months ago, mech players were very bad against zerg (mostly because only Avilo was playing mech :p), now you have the very best korean players playing battlecruiser camping bullshit. My point is that terran players might not win every TvZ yet (like zerg in the middle of Wol), but it doesn't mean this is balanced. Indeed, it is imbalanced because there are no counterplay. Your statistics will never show if there is a counterplay nor how to fix a broken match up, that's why they are useless. the difference is that mech has been beaten in lategame multiple times. Byul vs ty. Byul vs inno, flash vs curious g2. it's not like you insta-win with that composition once you reach it like it was with BL/infestor.
You are proving my point. Terran players are still learning how to play mech, that's why sometimes they are losing because they are doing mistakes, not because zerg players are playing well.
Look the broodlord infestor era, i am sure you know the game between Kiwikaki and Stephano were Kiwikaki won with a double vortex. Does it mean broodlord/infestor was a weak strategy ? No, Stephano was surprised because he didn't have yet much practice against Mothership play. Later, he won everything with broodlord/infestor.
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On October 09 2015 17:10 Asturas wrote:
I like what I read.
But I really would like Blizzard to rethink photon overcharge on pylons. I still can't see the point of this.
Totally agree ... It does stop almost every aggression
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On October 09 2015 22:56 FireCake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2015 22:32 Charoisaur wrote:On October 09 2015 18:58 FireCake wrote:On October 09 2015 16:48 cmdspinner1 wrote:On October 09 2015 09:30 Pugfarmer wrote:On October 09 2015 08:46 Charoisaur wrote:On October 09 2015 08:44 Pugfarmer wrote:
Just separate mech upgrades in HOTS and problem solved. Which problem? The problem with Mech being overpowered vs Zerg, and creating the same slow turtle games that the old swarm hosts did. Are there any statistics that prove that mech is overpowered vs. Zerg? A lot of people just claim that, but i don't get the impression from watching pro games. Why do you care so much about statistics ? They give no explanation about how the game works and thus how to change the game if it needs to be done. Mech is overpowered against zerg because : 1) Their late game army destroys with ease everything zerg has 2) It became very easy to play mech (combined upgrade, tanks buff, hellbat buff, SH nerf, banshee buff...) 3) Zerg has no tools to harass the terran player in a somehow cost-effective way Terrans players played bio everytime they play a zerg for years, suddendly terrans play mech... This strategy needs to be insanely broken for terran to do something else than 3 CCs into bio. wrong, zerg is op against mech because: 1) Their midgame destroys with ease everything mech has 2) it became very easy to play zerg (blinding cloud buff, roach burrow movespeed buff, mutalisk speed/regen, hydralisk speed, ultra buff) 3) terran has no tools to harass the zerg player in a somehow cost-effective way. see why you need statistics to bback your statements up? Without statistics everyone can just spew subjective bullshit. Fact is if statistics are fine the game isn't imbalanced. Doesn't matter if you have problems with mech on ladder. I also have problems with protoss but I don't say it's imba. I didn't explain the whole Match up because that would take a very long time, i have sum up the key points of why mech is broken. I have a very short argument that should convince you that there is a huge problem with mech play. Months ago, during the WCS season 2, i lost against a mech terran in RO16. He won 2 times with the pure mech camping style. The day after i talked with David Kim for hours about many things, especially game balancing. I asked him how can i beat a camping mech player ? I will give you his answer, you might not believe me but this is was he said : "don't worry FireCake, in legacy of the void this kind of play won't be possible". He didn't tell me that i should experiment this or this against mech. Instead he told me that he wanted to bring back SH but it was not possible because of the community being too harsh about SH. As a player it's my job to find ways to deal with strategies but after 2 years i have no idea how to beat mech, and i have seen no ways to deal win mech style. Also, as you may have noticed, i am not talking about ladder games, but tournament games. Show nested quote +On October 09 2015 22:37 Charoisaur wrote:On October 09 2015 22:29 FireCake wrote:On October 09 2015 20:31 cmdspinner1 wrote:On October 09 2015 18:58 FireCake wrote:On October 09 2015 16:48 cmdspinner1 wrote:On October 09 2015 09:30 Pugfarmer wrote:On October 09 2015 08:46 Charoisaur wrote:On October 09 2015 08:44 Pugfarmer wrote:
Just separate mech upgrades in HOTS and problem solved. Which problem? The problem with Mech being overpowered vs Zerg, and creating the same slow turtle games that the old swarm hosts did. Are there any statistics that prove that mech is overpowered vs. Zerg? A lot of people just claim that, but i don't get the impression from watching pro games. Why do you care so much about statistics ? They give no explanation about how the game works and thus how to change the game if it needs to be done. Mech is overpowered against zerg because : 1) Their late game army destroys with ease everything zerg has 2) It became very easy to play mech (combined upgrade, tanks buff, hellbat buff, SH nerf, banshee buff...) 3) Zerg has no tools to harass the terran player in a somehow cost-effective way Terrans players played bio everytime they play a zerg for years, suddendly terrans play mech... This strategy needs to be insanely broken for terran to do something else than 3 CCs into bio. Because statistics is the only reliable, non subjective way to measure balance. If Mech has <50% win percentage vs Zerg in high level HOTS games, mech is not imbalanced obviously. Before the broodlord/infestor era, zerg players were struggling to take a third base, so the winrate for zerg was pretty low against terran. But zergs learnt slowly to play broodlord infestor, and then the winrate in ZvT became absurd. The winrate was higher and higher for zerg because the opponent had no counterplay except killing the zerg before broodlord infestor (lol). This is the same thing with mech play, terrans players are slowly learning how to play mech against zerg. if you look at the winrate few months ago, mech players were very bad against zerg (mostly because only Avilo was playing mech :p), now you have the very best korean players playing battlecruiser camping bullshit. My point is that terran players might not win every TvZ yet (like zerg in the middle of Wol), but it doesn't mean this is balanced. Indeed, it is imbalanced because there are no counterplay. Your statistics will never show if there is a counterplay nor how to fix a broken match up, that's why they are useless. the difference is that mech has been beaten in lategame multiple times. Byul vs ty. Byul vs inno, flash vs curious g2. it's not like you insta-win with that composition once you reach it like it was with BL/infestor. You are proving my point. Terran players are still learning how to play mech, that's why sometimes they are losing because they are doing mistakes, not because zerg players are playing well. Look the broodlord infestor era, i am sure you know the game between Kiwikaki and Stephano were Kiwikaki won with a double vortex. Does it mean broodlord/infestor was a weak strategy ? No, Stephano was surprised because he didn't have yet much practice against Mothership play. Later, he won everything with broodlord/infestor.
You may be right but at the moment there is no clear indication that mech is overpowered and with lotv coming so soon nerfing it and risking making terran underpowered before blizzcon would be a huge mistake... only because some players predict mech will be unbeatable once it's figured out more.
nerfing a race that is statistically not to strong is always a bad move.
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In before blizzard removes all new terran units.
Just like always.
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On October 09 2015 23:05 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2015 22:56 FireCake wrote:On October 09 2015 22:32 Charoisaur wrote:On October 09 2015 18:58 FireCake wrote:On October 09 2015 16:48 cmdspinner1 wrote:On October 09 2015 09:30 Pugfarmer wrote:On October 09 2015 08:46 Charoisaur wrote:On October 09 2015 08:44 Pugfarmer wrote:
Just separate mech upgrades in HOTS and problem solved. Which problem? The problem with Mech being overpowered vs Zerg, and creating the same slow turtle games that the old swarm hosts did. Are there any statistics that prove that mech is overpowered vs. Zerg? A lot of people just claim that, but i don't get the impression from watching pro games. Why do you care so much about statistics ? They give no explanation about how the game works and thus how to change the game if it needs to be done. Mech is overpowered against zerg because : 1) Their late game army destroys with ease everything zerg has 2) It became very easy to play mech (combined upgrade, tanks buff, hellbat buff, SH nerf, banshee buff...) 3) Zerg has no tools to harass the terran player in a somehow cost-effective way Terrans players played bio everytime they play a zerg for years, suddendly terrans play mech... This strategy needs to be insanely broken for terran to do something else than 3 CCs into bio. wrong, zerg is op against mech because: 1) Their midgame destroys with ease everything mech has 2) it became very easy to play zerg (blinding cloud buff, roach burrow movespeed buff, mutalisk speed/regen, hydralisk speed, ultra buff) 3) terran has no tools to harass the zerg player in a somehow cost-effective way. see why you need statistics to bback your statements up? Without statistics everyone can just spew subjective bullshit. Fact is if statistics are fine the game isn't imbalanced. Doesn't matter if you have problems with mech on ladder. I also have problems with protoss but I don't say it's imba. I didn't explain the whole Match up because that would take a very long time, i have sum up the key points of why mech is broken. I have a very short argument that should convince you that there is a huge problem with mech play. Months ago, during the WCS season 2, i lost against a mech terran in RO16. He won 2 times with the pure mech camping style. The day after i talked with David Kim for hours about many things, especially game balancing. I asked him how can i beat a camping mech player ? I will give you his answer, you might not believe me but this is was he said : "don't worry FireCake, in legacy of the void this kind of play won't be possible". He didn't tell me that i should experiment this or this against mech. Instead he told me that he wanted to bring back SH but it was not possible because of the community being too harsh about SH. As a player it's my job to find ways to deal with strategies but after 2 years i have no idea how to beat mech, and i have seen no ways to deal win mech style. Also, as you may have noticed, i am not talking about ladder games, but tournament games. On October 09 2015 22:37 Charoisaur wrote:On October 09 2015 22:29 FireCake wrote:On October 09 2015 20:31 cmdspinner1 wrote:On October 09 2015 18:58 FireCake wrote:On October 09 2015 16:48 cmdspinner1 wrote:On October 09 2015 09:30 Pugfarmer wrote:On October 09 2015 08:46 Charoisaur wrote:On October 09 2015 08:44 Pugfarmer wrote:
Just separate mech upgrades in HOTS and problem solved. Which problem? The problem with Mech being overpowered vs Zerg, and creating the same slow turtle games that the old swarm hosts did. Are there any statistics that prove that mech is overpowered vs. Zerg? A lot of people just claim that, but i don't get the impression from watching pro games. Why do you care so much about statistics ? They give no explanation about how the game works and thus how to change the game if it needs to be done. Mech is overpowered against zerg because : 1) Their late game army destroys with ease everything zerg has 2) It became very easy to play mech (combined upgrade, tanks buff, hellbat buff, SH nerf, banshee buff...) 3) Zerg has no tools to harass the terran player in a somehow cost-effective way Terrans players played bio everytime they play a zerg for years, suddendly terrans play mech... This strategy needs to be insanely broken for terran to do something else than 3 CCs into bio. Because statistics is the only reliable, non subjective way to measure balance. If Mech has <50% win percentage vs Zerg in high level HOTS games, mech is not imbalanced obviously. Before the broodlord/infestor era, zerg players were struggling to take a third base, so the winrate for zerg was pretty low against terran. But zergs learnt slowly to play broodlord infestor, and then the winrate in ZvT became absurd. The winrate was higher and higher for zerg because the opponent had no counterplay except killing the zerg before broodlord infestor (lol). This is the same thing with mech play, terrans players are slowly learning how to play mech against zerg. if you look at the winrate few months ago, mech players were very bad against zerg (mostly because only Avilo was playing mech :p), now you have the very best korean players playing battlecruiser camping bullshit. My point is that terran players might not win every TvZ yet (like zerg in the middle of Wol), but it doesn't mean this is balanced. Indeed, it is imbalanced because there are no counterplay. Your statistics will never show if there is a counterplay nor how to fix a broken match up, that's why they are useless. the difference is that mech has been beaten in lategame multiple times. Byul vs ty. Byul vs inno, flash vs curious g2. it's not like you insta-win with that composition once you reach it like it was with BL/infestor. You are proving my point. Terran players are still learning how to play mech, that's why sometimes they are losing because they are doing mistakes, not because zerg players are playing well. Look the broodlord infestor era, i am sure you know the game between Kiwikaki and Stephano were Kiwikaki won with a double vortex. Does it mean broodlord/infestor was a weak strategy ? No, Stephano was surprised because he didn't have yet much practice against Mothership play. Later, he won everything with broodlord/infestor. You may be right but at the moment there is no clear indication that mech is overpowered and with lotv coming so soon nerfing it and risking making terran underpowered before blizzcon would be a huge mistake... only because some players predict mech will be unbeatable once it's figured out more. nerfing a race that is statistically not to strong is always a bad move.
One year ago, some terrans player started to discover that mech was imbalanced.
So some terrans players started to train in ladder games.
After months of trainings some terrans players (mostly Happy, Kas and goody) started to play mech in tournaments.
The success of some terrans players inspired some other terrans players to play mech.
So the other terrans players (mainly koreans players) started to play mech.
Then some months later most terrans players were practicing mech.
Now, most of the terrans player are playing mech.
And finally we are seeing some terrans player winning with mech style.
It took many months (i would say approximately 10 months) before the imbalance in game start to be seen in tournament.
I think that would have been a lot better to fix mech months ago instead of waiting to have statistics that doesn't help fix the problem but simply show how broken the game is.
edit : fixing mech doesn't necessary mean nerfing terran. This is a more general problem i see in the starcraft community : a change is not always either a nerf or a buff.
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EPT
