EPTCommunity Feedback Update - September 25 - Page 3
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TsogiMaster
191 Posts
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hitpoint
United States1511 Posts
In fact, I wish there were more boring units with dumb abilities. That's what starcraft 2 needs. Imagine if we could go back in time and remove forcefield from the sentry, and it became a boring unit that had a weak attack, guardian shield and hallucinate. Blizzard has to buff protoss in a meaningful way that doesn't hinge upon them changing the terrain. Gateway units would become good. MSC might not exist. Protoss would play more like they did in BW. We would have had 5 years of PvAnything being fun to play/watch. It's fun to think about what could have been. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20282 Posts
3) At least you're aware adepts are a problem. But I think warp prism play will have to be toned down too. Did you think about, I don't know, splitting warp-in and energy power and getting back to 5 sec warp-ins ? "5 sec" was HOTS seconds, so it was like 3.8 of the real seconds that we're on now. For chrono, well, see my sig. I'm disappointed but not surprised that my favourite version of the game (no mule or chrono) is not being considered any more. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24192 Posts
On September 26 2015 08:12 -NegativeZero- wrote: the only real problem is specifically with the warp prism warp-in being too strong. and isn't that problem huge ? | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24192 Posts
On September 26 2015 08:17 hitpoint wrote: I think the corruptor is fine. So, it's a boring unit, big deal. At least it gets used and serves a purpose. Not every unit is going to be super exciting. In fact, I wish there were more boring units with dumb abilities. That's what starcraft 2 needs. Imagine if we could go back in time and remove forcefield from the sentry, and it became a boring unit that had a weak attack, guardian shield and hallucinate. Blizzard has to buff protoss in a meaningful way that doesn't hinge upon them changing the terrain. Gateway units would become good. MSC might not exist. Protoss would play more like they did in BW. We would have had 5 years of PvAnything being fun to play/watch. It's fun to think about what could have been. I agree so so so much. | ||
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On September 26 2015 08:12 TsogiMaster wrote: Everytime if they release Community feedback, I see only complains and complains everywhere. What do you guys expect, everyone has different opinions and there is a big skill difference between them, while most of the lower league people want to keep the macro mechanics, most of the higher league people want to remove it. So let me ask you how would you solve the problem? That they are testing and bringing every week a new patch is good enough. Funny if i get so much hatred and complains I would stop to hear the community and work with the team and progamers to get the best solution. But really some people here should start to stop to blame and complain instead of just give their suggestions to improve the game. How to solve the problem? Do what is best for the overall game design. That's the game designers job - to give us the most well designed game they are capable of. If you look at my earlier post, I give specific examples of them not only failing to do this, but they decided to go with an option that according to their own words was an inferior design. Let me repeat that for you. According to their own words the lead designers went with inferior design because of the perception of some of the community. How could you defend that? They are failing to do their job... and their reason is "perception"... not even something real or tangible or good for the game. But simply because of false beliefs!! And now they are switching up and claiming it is what they believe is best for the game? It's too late for that PR bullshit lie. We already have it in writing that David Kim stated this is an inferior design. We already have it in writing that the choice was between the best design of the game or removing a mechanic players have "practiced". We have proof from his own words that his statement is a lie. Which exposes the true reason for this. The fact that they decided to release the game so soon when it was not ready for a release so soon. Now they have to give up on all the changes they were in the middle of, and all of the changes they said they were happy only 1 month ago, because there is not enough time to rebalance & test & get past QA in a month and a half until release... | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
I don't know about that, with the current pathfinding a move units are horrible to watch AND play with in sc2. Just look at roach vs roach. | ||
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WhaleOFaTale
46 Posts
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NyxNax
United States227 Posts
 It certainly is ideal timing as far as a professional gaming stand point and all the blizzcon publicity, but I dont think thats why its being forced on that deadline. | ||
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Schakal111
20 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15883 Posts
On September 26 2015 08:50 NyxNax wrote: So in the beginning they said they wanted to try out big changes at first and then use the remaining time to fine tune. Well that didn't exactly happen, they tried automating macro mechanics but way too late in the game and now they are months away from a polished game but are still forcing it out on deadline. A company that pushed SC2 WoL release a whole year to finish the game. It's depressing to think why they're not able to push LotV's release back if the economy change is not a big change I don't know what is. | ||
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NyxNax
United States227 Posts
On September 26 2015 08:53 Charoisaur wrote: if the economy change is not a big change I don't know what is. Meh kind of, I think the removing macro mechanics is more along the lines of a bigger change, albeit lowering the mineral patches does effect the game a lot, it seems like a less refined change to get what they wanted done in a shorter time(rather than a new economy model). Really my point was that its depressing they are forced to push out an unfinished game, when in the past they would not do that. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
Zerg are imba with insta remaxes late game, 19 larva per hatch, but it's not really an "issue" like a few people try and say. It's simply the way the game fundamentally is and it's fine and even fun in a way. Protoss are imba with late game mass warp-ins from gateways/warp prisms, and chrono is imba allowing mega fast upgrades from Protoss...but it's their defining mechanic and there's honestly nothing wrong with it either. It works quite well. Terran are imba with late game "suiciding SCVS" and mass mule drops for econ...AT FIRST GLANCE. But then people that can logically analyze the mathematics of larva inject/chrono realize Terran is only staying approximately even with the other races in economy late game, especially once bases spread out far on the map. T has always had the weakest late game units, and people also forget in mega late game both P and Z end up suiciding workers just the same as T does . Yes that's right, the other races do it too in mega late game via turning drones into mass spine/spore, and P does the same suiciding Probes in mega late game for that huge deathball. "Mule hammer" on distant bases barely keeps Terran even with the other races the longer the game goes because the other races still have larva inject/chrono the longer the game goes for worker production. There is nothing wrong with that. People just try and say it's bad because they have huge racial bias instead of looking at the math on how all 3 races operate, or understanding how all 3 races operate late game. I have played all 3 races at a high level myself and never had an issue with "mule hammers" when off racing vs Terran. This is just a noob player complaint imo @_@ I honestly think people that are still making a big hoopla about macro mechanics for or against...really what you want are big changes to SC2 gameplay to keep the metagame fresh and changing more often, as well as more frequent patches to both balance and things like unit design/abilities. To be absolutely honest - absolutely not one of you or myself gives a flying fuck about economy changes nor ever will. I don't wake up in the middle of the night having nightmares of income graphs and being unable to load up a game of SC2 because of them ROFL. What you guys do give a fuck about are awesome gameplay mechanics, units that are fun and rewarding to use, and a metagame that does not sit static for 6+ months at a time in professional play. What most of you guys want is to not see the same 1 rax reaper FE into 3 rax bio into double medivac into 3 base into SCV pull or into same exact thing every goddamn game. Same goes for other races. And the way that changes is with constant patching to balance/gameplay, not with some idiotic poorly thought out mass gutting of macro mechanics and economy.  | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15883 Posts
On September 26 2015 09:16 avilo wrote: Gotta love the people that still don't understand mathematics and economy. "Mule hammer" aka Terran dropping mules at distant bases is 100% necessary to be in play versus chrono/larva inject and it's simply the race's game mechanic. Zerg are imba with insta remaxes late game, 19 larva per hatch, but it's not really an "issue" like a few people try and say. It's simply the way the game fundamentally is and it's fine and even fun in a way. Protoss are imba with late game mass warp-ins from gateways/warp prisms, and chrono is imba allowing mega fast upgrades from Protoss...but it's their defining mechanic and there's honestly nothing wrong with it either. It works quite well. Terran are imba with late game "suiciding SCVS" and mass mule drops for econ...AT FIRST GLANCE. But then people that can logically analyze the mathematics of larva inject/chrono realize Terran is only staying approximately even with the other races in economy late game, especially once bases spread out far on the map. T has always had the weakest late game units, and people also forget in mega late game both P and Z end up suiciding workers just the same as T does . Yes that's right, the other races do it too in mega late game via turning drones into mass spine/spore, and P does the same suiciding Probes in mega late game for that huge deathball. "Mule hammer" on distant bases barely keeps Terran even with the other races the longer the game goes because the other races still have larva inject/chrono the longer the game goes for worker production. There is nothing wrong with that. People just try and say it's bad because they have huge racial bias instead of looking at the math on how all 3 races operate, or understanding how all 3 races operate late game. I have played all 3 races at a high level myself and never had an issue with "mule hammers" when off racing vs Terran. This is just a noob player complaint imo @_@ avilo gets it right. Different races are just different. If we want every race to play the same we could just remove 2 of the races and let all games play with the same race. edit: also the first time i hear avilo say mass warpins are fine. that deserves respect | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20282 Posts
Gotta love the people that still don't understand mathematics and economy. "Mule hammer" aka Terran dropping mules at distant bases is 100% necessary to be in play versus chrono/larva inject That's a balance concern, not a design concern. Mule is more disruptive to early and midgame than lategame i feel, though some people play lategame with 15 scv's (and now terran army is more supply efficient, that's a potential problem! Ghosts and liberators are extremely good and very supply efficient - terran got away with it in the past because many of their units/comps needed the army supply advantage in order to win) | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On September 26 2015 09:20 Cyro wrote: That's a balance concern, not a design concern. Mule is more disruptive to early and midgame than lategame i feel, though some people play lategame with 15 scv's (and now terran army is more supply efficient, that's a problem! Ghosts and liberators are extremely good and very supply efficient) Mule is not a concern period. Nor is larva inject. Nor is chrono. These are artificially made up "concerns" that people started for some reason and then everyone just randomly jumped on board because what they want are patches and changes made to the game more often. And no, once again you are blatantly incorrect. Terran army is not more supply efficient in mega late game because the other races do the exact same thing killing their own workers in late game. I do not understand why people for some reason have the misconception it's only Terran that does that with workers. I know for a fact when i offrace P/Z and when i've played other good late game P/Z players they and myself suicide drones/probes late game to the strongest possible army. Zerg does it by making mass spine/spores with a good bank, and Protoss does it...just by killing their workers at a certain point. You can actually argue Protoss has the strongest supply efficient army of all 3 races once they have suicided probes down to a bout 5-10 probes because of all of the AOE splash damage. But even then it's relatively fine in HOTS. | ||
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ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
Is it just me? | ||
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ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
On September 26 2015 09:26 avilo wrote: Mule is not a concern period. Nor is larva inject. Nor is chrono. These are artificially made up "concerns" that people started for some reason and then everyone just randomly jumped on board because what they want are patches and changes made to the game more often. And no, once again you are blatantly incorrect. Terran army is not more supply efficient in mega late game because the other races do the exact same thing killing their own workers in late game. I do not understand why people for some reason have the misconception it's only Terran that does that with workers. I know for a fact when i offrace P/Z and when i've played other good late game P/Z players they and myself suicide drones/probes late game to the strongest possible army. Zerg does it by making mass spine/spores with a good bank, and Protoss does it...just by killing their workers at a certain point. You can actually argue Protoss has the strongest supply efficient army of all 3 races once they have suicided probes down to a bout 5-10 probes because of all of the AOE splash damage. But even then it's relatively fine in HOTS. It's because if I play zerg or protoss and kill all my workers, I have no active income. If I play terran and I kill all my workers, I still have active income late game because I made 10+ command centers with full energy and I mine minerals with mules. That's the difference. | ||
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Nam_Pho_life
6 Posts
Zerg I suggest to take out the indestructible units aka nydus worm, decrease its cost/ tech tree and increase its life. this unit can be abused and I have seen it be abused. Viper anti-air spell does way too much damage and can be spammed. decrease its damage like radiate from SC1. late game harvester drone upgrade on hive tech to increase mineral uptake so they can compete in late game Ravagener - remove animation for landing the corrosive bile. Protoss adapt switch to armour from light. new upgrade so that its shade can attack but does less damage but takes more damage. immortals barriers - can set shield to autocast or manual cast. upgrade for probe - high up on the tech tree. - increase amount of mineral harvested distruptors - the damage orb can be manually denotated - my also do friendly fire Terran Ghost - does more damage via snipe 1.5 sec per shot when cloaked, however, upon reveal returns to base damage. time for shot decreased. give back the lockdown ability cyclone - decrease cost, upgrade to increase armour (base it similar to goliath) Thors - return 250mm spell but allow it to do AOE with no stun and 1.5 sec to cast and 1.5 sec to unfreeze thors aka like the odin battle cruiser - shield barrier spell 100 to activate (aka defensive shield from sci vessel), damage to shields drains BC energy until no more and then does damage. | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
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