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On September 30 2015 07:09 Big J wrote:
I never thought it was possible, but blizzard found ways to make protoss even more gimmicky, even more reliant on the mothershipcore and give them even stronger warpgate rushes. Well played blizzard, well played!
What's the problem with making a race reliant on a unit that you can only make one of in the early game? The new Overcharge is amazing and gives Protoss the flexibility they need with the new economy and game-pace. Sounds like people just like to whine because they decided it 'doesn't belong in StarCraft' for some stupid arbitrary reason.
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Spyridon, I feel bad not responding to your entire post, but I really feel that this is becoming too much of a "you say, I say" discussion without any substance.
Let's just assume for a minute that what you say is true - do you think that this could be entirely NOT Kim's fault, but instead be about company politics and the fact that the game releases in little over a month? And a $50k tournament coming up, too?
There's only one first impression. If Legacy's first impression is "unbalanced, gimmicky and unfinished" the game loses a lot of reputation. The incredibly high balance is one of it's main selling points regarding multiplayer.
Of course, for us hardcores that will probably all buy the game anyway, it doesn't matter whether or not the game is balanced in the beginning and Blizzard being bold is more important. For new players watching the game closely now but still not being sold it does matter, though.
@TimeSpiral:
Per the team credits on Atlas' website, Day9 is one of three game designers for Atlas, and there is one associate game designer (four designers total). My whole drive is that, while we can't judge him as a game designer yet, we can certainly bestow a deserved amount of confidence in him. I'm confident. I would want him on my team, and I'm sure Atlas is thrilled to have him on theirs. I sensed what felt like undue negativity, but if you're specifically talking about the Day9 vs. Kim thing, yeah. I'm with you.
I can agree with your sentiment about Day9 in general and why Atlas would love to have them on his team to help out. So I think we pretty much agree 
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Lol @ people mad at Kim and Blizz because it didnt go the way they wanted and thinks that they are more qualified than people at Blizzard. It's their game, yes community feedback is important But it shouldn't be changing everytime a TL member creates a thread about SC2 not being fun, Macro boosters are bad, this unit is blah blah etc etc.
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On September 30 2015 17:31 shin_toss wrote:
Lol @ people mad at Kim and Blizz because it didnt go the way they wanted and thinks that they are more qualified than people at Blizzard. It's their game, yes community feedback is important But it shouldn't be changing everytime a TL member creates a thread about SC2 not being fun, Macro boosters are bad, this unit is blah blah etc etc.
Then what is the point of all those feedback if it's end destination is the trash can?
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On September 30 2015 17:41 WrathSCII wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2015 17:31 shin_toss wrote:
Lol @ people mad at Kim and Blizz because it didnt go the way they wanted and thinks that they are more qualified than people at Blizzard. It's their game, yes community feedback is important But it shouldn't be changing everytime a TL member creates a thread about SC2 not being fun, Macro boosters are bad, this unit is blah blah etc etc.
Then what is the point of all those feedback if it's end destination is the trash can?
Not every feedback, no matter how positively is accepted, will be accepted. It is usually a feedback done by minority of players.
I still don't understand why they don't have a questionnaire in the game itself. Like every 20 games you have to answer some questions about actual beta, that's how it's done in other industries(like food testing - you eat it and then you fill the form about the food). I don't understand how this beta actually works at all, since you don't have to give any feedback at all.
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On September 30 2015 17:41 WrathSCII wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2015 17:31 shin_toss wrote:
Lol @ people mad at Kim and Blizz because it didnt go the way they wanted and thinks that they are more qualified than people at Blizzard. It's their game, yes community feedback is important But it shouldn't be changing everytime a TL member creates a thread about SC2 not being fun, Macro boosters are bad, this unit is blah blah etc etc.
Then what is the point of all those feedback if it's end destination is the trash can?
they're not suppose to follow every cry and whiners on bnet forums and TL . lot of people on forums these fast few months just make these threads and try to make non-problem a problem.. and there you go.. you have the bandwagon going on.
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On September 30 2015 18:10 shin_toss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2015 17:41 WrathSCII wrote:On September 30 2015 17:31 shin_toss wrote:
Lol @ people mad at Kim and Blizz because it didnt go the way they wanted and thinks that they are more qualified than people at Blizzard. It's their game, yes community feedback is important But it shouldn't be changing everytime a TL member creates a thread about SC2 not being fun, Macro boosters are bad, this unit is blah blah etc etc.
Then what is the point of all those feedback if it's end destination is the trash can? they're not suppose to follow every cry and whiners on bnet forums and TL . lot of people on forums these fast few months just make these threads and try to make non-problem a problem.. and there you go.. you have the bandwagon going on.
If the customer complains about a product having an issue, how can you call it "non-problem" when the one who uses the product calls it a "problem" I understand that you are having your way about it, but also the others have the right to have their voice heard.
It is not like there are multiple opinions on many many different things. They all can be brought down to:
1. MM are bad.
2. Economy is bad.
3. Harassment is way too strong.
4. Too many "activate to work" stuff going on.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On September 30 2015 18:22 WrathSCII wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2015 18:10 shin_toss wrote:On September 30 2015 17:41 WrathSCII wrote:On September 30 2015 17:31 shin_toss wrote:
Lol @ people mad at Kim and Blizz because it didnt go the way they wanted and thinks that they are more qualified than people at Blizzard. It's their game, yes community feedback is important But it shouldn't be changing everytime a TL member creates a thread about SC2 not being fun, Macro boosters are bad, this unit is blah blah etc etc.
Then what is the point of all those feedback if it's end destination is the trash can? they're not suppose to follow every cry and whiners on bnet forums and TL . lot of people on forums these fast few months just make these threads and try to make non-problem a problem.. and there you go.. you have the bandwagon going on. If the customer complains about a product having an issue, how can you call it "non-problem" when the one who uses the product calls it a "problem" I understand that you are having your way about it, but also the others have the right to have their voice heard. It is not like there are multiple opinions on many many different things. They all can be brought down to: 1. MM are bad. 2. Economy is bad. 3. Harassment is way too strong. 4. Too many "activate to work" stuff going on.
If 20k people play the game and only 3k complains, who do you want to listen to? ,-)
That's what I mentioned about the questionnaire in the game for everyone playing beta. Otherwise they don't know the reason. I stopped playing beta and they haven't asked me why I stopped. Is it because I don't like it? Is it because the game lags? Is it because I like more HotS? They don't know, they can only guess(actually it is lagging for me and I like HotS more).
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On September 30 2015 18:27 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2015 18:22 WrathSCII wrote:On September 30 2015 18:10 shin_toss wrote:On September 30 2015 17:41 WrathSCII wrote:On September 30 2015 17:31 shin_toss wrote:
Lol @ people mad at Kim and Blizz because it didnt go the way they wanted and thinks that they are more qualified than people at Blizzard. It's their game, yes community feedback is important But it shouldn't be changing everytime a TL member creates a thread about SC2 not being fun, Macro boosters are bad, this unit is blah blah etc etc.
Then what is the point of all those feedback if it's end destination is the trash can? they're not suppose to follow every cry and whiners on bnet forums and TL . lot of people on forums these fast few months just make these threads and try to make non-problem a problem.. and there you go.. you have the bandwagon going on. If the customer complains about a product having an issue, how can you call it "non-problem" when the one who uses the product calls it a "problem" I understand that you are having your way about it, but also the others have the right to have their voice heard. It is not like there are multiple opinions on many many different things. They all can be brought down to: 1. MM are bad. 2. Economy is bad. 3. Harassment is way too strong. 4. Too many "activate to work" stuff going on. If 20k people play the game and only 3k complains, who do you want to listen to? ,-) That's what I mentioned about the questionnaire in the game for everyone playing beta. Otherwise they don't know the reason. I stopped playing beta and they haven't asked me why I stopped. Is it because I don't like it? Is it because the game lags? Is it because I like more HotS? They don't know, they can only guess(actually it is lagging for me and I like HotS more).
I completely agree with you on the questionnaire part. But there is a general rule. If there is a single customer complained. That means there are at least hundred annoyed as that customer but did not rise their voice.
Many people don't post on TL / BNET, but that does not mean they are completely enjoying the current status of those issues.
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On September 30 2015 09:18 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2015 07:09 Big J wrote:
I never thought it was possible, but blizzard found ways to make protoss even more gimmicky, even more reliant on the mothershipcore and give them even stronger warpgate rushes. Well played blizzard, well played! What's the problem with making a race reliant on a unit that you can only make one of in the early game? The new Overcharge is amazing and gives Protoss the flexibility they need with the new economy and game-pace. Sounds like people just like to whine because they decided it 'doesn't belong in StarCraft' for some stupid arbitrary reason.
Because the unit design is crap. Recall, especially for 50energy is stupid. You're rarely out of position and you shouldn't ever lose a combat when you are attacking.
New overcharge. You call it amazing, I call it complete crap. Its main application is to break the opponent's ramp.
Edit: And of course blizzard can do whatever they want. I'm fully OK with that and share the stance that it is their game. That doesn't mean I won't raise my voice when they are doing stuff that I feel is wrong. Or not doing stuff that I feel would improve the game.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On September 30 2015 18:35 WrathSCII wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2015 18:27 deacon.frost wrote:On September 30 2015 18:22 WrathSCII wrote:On September 30 2015 18:10 shin_toss wrote:On September 30 2015 17:41 WrathSCII wrote:On September 30 2015 17:31 shin_toss wrote:
Lol @ people mad at Kim and Blizz because it didnt go the way they wanted and thinks that they are more qualified than people at Blizzard. It's their game, yes community feedback is important But it shouldn't be changing everytime a TL member creates a thread about SC2 not being fun, Macro boosters are bad, this unit is blah blah etc etc.
Then what is the point of all those feedback if it's end destination is the trash can? they're not suppose to follow every cry and whiners on bnet forums and TL . lot of people on forums these fast few months just make these threads and try to make non-problem a problem.. and there you go.. you have the bandwagon going on. If the customer complains about a product having an issue, how can you call it "non-problem" when the one who uses the product calls it a "problem" I understand that you are having your way about it, but also the others have the right to have their voice heard. It is not like there are multiple opinions on many many different things. They all can be brought down to: 1. MM are bad. 2. Economy is bad. 3. Harassment is way too strong. 4. Too many "activate to work" stuff going on. If 20k people play the game and only 3k complains, who do you want to listen to? ,-) That's what I mentioned about the questionnaire in the game for everyone playing beta. Otherwise they don't know the reason. I stopped playing beta and they haven't asked me why I stopped. Is it because I don't like it? Is it because the game lags? Is it because I like more HotS? They don't know, they can only guess(actually it is lagging for me and I like HotS more). I completely agree with you on the questionnaire part. But there is a general rule. If there is a single customer complained. That means there are at least hundred annoyed as that customer but did not rise their voice. Many people don't post on TL / BNET, but that does not mean they are completely enjoying the current status of those issues.
Well that's it, Blizzard don't know the actual ratio. It;s reinventing the wheel again 
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On September 30 2015 18:27 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2015 18:22 WrathSCII wrote:On September 30 2015 18:10 shin_toss wrote:On September 30 2015 17:41 WrathSCII wrote:On September 30 2015 17:31 shin_toss wrote:
Lol @ people mad at Kim and Blizz because it didnt go the way they wanted and thinks that they are more qualified than people at Blizzard. It's their game, yes community feedback is important But it shouldn't be changing everytime a TL member creates a thread about SC2 not being fun, Macro boosters are bad, this unit is blah blah etc etc.
Then what is the point of all those feedback if it's end destination is the trash can? they're not suppose to follow every cry and whiners on bnet forums and TL . lot of people on forums these fast few months just make these threads and try to make non-problem a problem.. and there you go.. you have the bandwagon going on. If the customer complains about a product having an issue, how can you call it "non-problem" when the one who uses the product calls it a "problem" I understand that you are having your way about it, but also the others have the right to have their voice heard. It is not like there are multiple opinions on many many different things. They all can be brought down to: 1. MM are bad. 2. Economy is bad. 3. Harassment is way too strong. 4. Too many "activate to work" stuff going on. If 20k people play the game and only 3k complains, who do you want to listen to? ,-) That's what I mentioned about the questionnaire in the game for everyone playing beta. Otherwise they don't know the reason. I stopped playing beta and they haven't asked me why I stopped. Is it because I don't like it? Is it because the game lags? Is it because I like more HotS? They don't know, they can only guess(actually it is lagging for me and I like HotS more).
If 20k play the game, 3k complain, and 500K other people in the target group don't purchase the game in the first place. Then you need to understand why only 20K people seems interested in purchasing and playing the game.
The complaints from the 3k people is effectively free customer surveys. That's something that you pay for in order industries.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On September 30 2015 19:26 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2015 18:27 deacon.frost wrote:On September 30 2015 18:22 WrathSCII wrote:On September 30 2015 18:10 shin_toss wrote:On September 30 2015 17:41 WrathSCII wrote:On September 30 2015 17:31 shin_toss wrote:
Lol @ people mad at Kim and Blizz because it didnt go the way they wanted and thinks that they are more qualified than people at Blizzard. It's their game, yes community feedback is important But it shouldn't be changing everytime a TL member creates a thread about SC2 not being fun, Macro boosters are bad, this unit is blah blah etc etc.
Then what is the point of all those feedback if it's end destination is the trash can? they're not suppose to follow every cry and whiners on bnet forums and TL . lot of people on forums these fast few months just make these threads and try to make non-problem a problem.. and there you go.. you have the bandwagon going on. If the customer complains about a product having an issue, how can you call it "non-problem" when the one who uses the product calls it a "problem" I understand that you are having your way about it, but also the others have the right to have their voice heard. It is not like there are multiple opinions on many many different things. They all can be brought down to: 1. MM are bad. 2. Economy is bad. 3. Harassment is way too strong. 4. Too many "activate to work" stuff going on. If 20k people play the game and only 3k complains, who do you want to listen to? ,-) That's what I mentioned about the questionnaire in the game for everyone playing beta. Otherwise they don't know the reason. I stopped playing beta and they haven't asked me why I stopped. Is it because I don't like it? Is it because the game lags? Is it because I like more HotS? They don't know, they can only guess(actually it is lagging for me and I like HotS more). If 20k play the game, 3k complain, and 500K other people in the target group don't purchase the game in the first place. Then you need to understand why only 20K people seems interested in purchasing and playing the game. The complaints from the 3k people is effectively free customer surveys. That's something that you pay for in order industries.
Ehm, I don't believe that 500k people won't buy the game, the game is mostly bought for SP anyway. 1.1m of copies HotS was sold during first 2 days of the release and the ladder wasn't overcrowded because big part of it was for SP.
And I made up the 20k number, please don't use it this way, I just wanted to point out the ratio, it is probably more shifted to the group of "don't care/satisfied". (my guess would be 10:1, but I played the nice guy with 6:1)
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On September 30 2015 16:27 KeksX wrote:
Spyridon, I feel bad not responding to your entire post, but I really feel that this is becoming too much of a "you say, I say" discussion without any substance.
Let's just assume for a minute that what you say is true - do you think that this could be entirely NOT Kim's fault, but instead be about company politics and the fact that the game releases in little over a month? And a $50k tournament coming up, too?
There's only one first impression. If Legacy's first impression is "unbalanced, gimmicky and unfinished" the game loses a lot of reputation. The incredibly high balance is one of it's main selling points regarding multiplayer.
Of course, for us hardcores that will probably all buy the game anyway, it doesn't matter whether or not the game is balanced in the beginning and Blizzard being bold is more important. For new players watching the game closely now but still not being sold it does matter, though.
I do think it may be Blizzards fault for the release date. There is actually a lil bit of evidence to support this being true, considering they did not release his community update, even though the update shows it was written BEFORE the patch, until there was an uproar about the patch.
That still does not change that they are being dishonest with us on the real reason, which makes the community updates a facade at this point.
On September 30 2015 18:08 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2015 17:41 WrathSCII wrote:On September 30 2015 17:31 shin_toss wrote:
Lol @ people mad at Kim and Blizz because it didnt go the way they wanted and thinks that they are more qualified than people at Blizzard. It's their game, yes community feedback is important But it shouldn't be changing everytime a TL member creates a thread about SC2 not being fun, Macro boosters are bad, this unit is blah blah etc etc.
Then what is the point of all those feedback if it's end destination is the trash can? Not every feedback, no matter how positively is accepted, will be accepted. It is usually a feedback done by minority of players. I still don't understand why they don't have a questionnaire in the game itself. Like every 20 games you have to answer some questions about actual beta, that's how it's done in other industries(like food testing - you eat it and then you fill the form about the food). I don't understand how this beta actually works at all, since you don't have to give any feedback at all.
Of course not all feedback will be accepted, but for more than a month they focused almost every single feedback question on the macro mechanics specifically, and the massive amounts of feedback was straight ignored. If they are going to ask for feedback, say they are happy with the direction, and then revert everything, is it a surprise that the community feels like they wasted all that time?
David Kim was the specific person who came to us asking for feedback as well. He was the person who told us they were happy with the direction they were going. And he was the person who then came to us and told us reasons they reverted that did not make sense with everything else. So of course the community is pissed at him. Now might it be Blizzards fault? Sure, it might. But all that means is they made him the fall guy so that their brand takes less of a loss and the responsibility falls on his shoulders.
And why don't they have a questionnaire? I wondered the same thing, but the only reason that makes sense is that this is not really about feedback. Our feedback did not matter anyway when they asked for it.
On September 30 2015 18:10 shin_toss wrote:
they're not suppose to follow every cry and whiners on bnet forums and TL . lot of people on forums these fast few months just make these threads and try to make non-problem a problem.. and there you go.. you have the bandwagon going on.
I agree with this statement, but they have proven they do NOT follow this rule. Because if that were truly the case, they would not be giving the reason of "negative perception" as the reason for doing their design updates...
And the community was not the ones to make a non-problem a problem. They were the ones who asked us for feedback, and after we gave feedback for months it got ignored. We seen the same poll results they did, and they came up with drastically different conclusions from those reports than reality presented. They let us get a taste of the game without macro mechanics, the majority of the community that was polled liked it (and not just on TL) and then they took it away. I would say that is the developers making a non-problem a problem.
Many of the problems people discuss now, like game-ending harassment, active abilities, those can be changed in balance patches after the game releases. The true reason these issues are being brought up now is because the community is unhappy with the direction of the game as a whole, so the "little issues" are more bothersome. And lets be real, the straw that broke the camels back - macro mechanics - are something that will not be changing after release. So now you have the majority of the community that voted against this, all very unhappy.
You shouldn't be blaming the community for feeling how they do. Shouldn't be defending DK either since, regardless if this is Blizzards responsibility or not, he has contradicted himself and went back on his word a number of times, and put words in to the communities & pro players mouth that were never said. If Blizzard made him the fall guy, then why should we give him a break? That just makes all of them assholes with him as the face leading them in the negative path this game has been going for years...
On September 30 2015 18:27 deacon.frost wrote:
If 20k people play the game and only 3k complains, who do you want to listen to? ,-)
That's what I mentioned about the questionnaire in the game for everyone playing beta. Otherwise they don't know the reason. I stopped playing beta and they haven't asked me why I stopped. Is it because I don't like it? Is it because the game lags? Is it because I like more HotS? They don't know, they can only guess(actually it is lagging for me and I like HotS more).
That's not the situation we have here. If 20k people play the game and are ASKED FOR FEEDBACK, and 3k respond with an overwhelming percentage for one side, who do you want to listen to?
Yes they should have had a questionaire. The fact that they didn't doesn't make the communtiy wrong. That makes the developers wrong, and more of a reason as to why you should not be defending them or coming up with rationalities for them. And if they can only "guess" on the feedback, what train of thought would lead to them guessing the opposite of what the forum communities (the only place they allowed us to give feedback) asked for???
If they do not know what people really want, it's noones fault by Blizzards. And if they only give us forums as the single way for us to give feedback then ignore the forums, that's noones fault by Blizzards either. Whether you blame DK or not is up to if you blame Blizzard as a whole, or the team in charge of SC2 specifically.
Blizzard games are not where they used to be, but SC2 is by far the series of theirs that is hurting the most... Even D3 as bad as it was, is in a much better place than SC2 is now. And SC2 came out BEFORE D3 did. Yet they still have not repaired their reputation and it has only plummeted since release...
On September 30 2015 18:35 WrathSCII wrote:
Many people don't post on TL / BNET, but that does not mean they are completely enjoying the current status of those issues.
Exactly. It's not like this beta is huge anyway. Most nights at peak hours there's only ~200-250 games going on in LotV... There is not even that many people that PLAY the beta. So the amount who gave feedback are probably much higher than suspected, considering the number of feedback from players who actually played the beta.
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On September 30 2015 05:49 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2015 03:52 TimeSpiral wrote:On September 30 2015 03:22 Spyridon wrote:On September 30 2015 02:45 TimeSpiral wrote:On September 30 2015 01:19 KeksX wrote:On September 30 2015 01:07 TimeSpiral wrote:On September 29 2015 23:44 KeksX wrote:On September 28 2015 23:55 TimeSpiral wrote:On September 28 2015 18:08 -Archangel- wrote:On September 28 2015 01:34 Tiaraju9 wrote:
Day9 is better game desigmer than David Kim. These feedbacks threads are hard to read these days lol. The Starbow guys are better game designers than DK. Day9 has done shit zero so far. Once he has something to show then you can talk about his game design qualities. Fanboys these days... This seems like an odd statement. Surely you know he is on the team for Atlas, an RTS in development right now. Or are you just saying that because they haven't unveiled the game yet--beyond their NDA-protected internal testers--that he hasn't done anything? Just a weird statement. Someone above me mentioned an important element of the changing industry: the PC is going away. And by "going away" I mean, "going away for the general public." Essentially, it has already been replaced by mobile devices (i.e., phones, tablets, etc ...). The PC will never truly go away, but will be relegated to the hobbyist and enthusiast crowds. The PC has been proclaimed dead so many times now, it's never going to happen. Mobile devices are an addition, not a replacement. Also, yes, for the general public, Day9 has exactly 0 Game Design credibility. Talking and analysing a game is not the same as designing one.This will only change once we can actually see his work. Which might turn out to be the best RTS ever made, but unless we can actually see it it's naive to believe Day9 is a good Game Designer just because he is a smart and talented RTS player/analyst. On September 29 2015 07:20 [PkF] Wire wrote:
I hope the next patch is HUGE because if the released version is anywhere close to what we have atm, I don't see it going very well for SC2 at all. It's not going to be huge. There aren't going to be huge patches anymore. It's balancing phase now. Didn't say the PC was dead, nor do I agree with those who say the PC is dead. I was very specific. It's still a robust and profitable industry, of course, and will be for some time. The demographic is demonstrably changing. I'm a marketing professional by trade, and this has been an area of great interest to me. Mobile devices (still PCs, technically. The correct term is "Desktop computer", but that's besides the point) are absolutely a replacement for the Desktop PC for a growing percentage of the general population. For some they are supplementary devices, but for an important and growing demographic segment, they are the primary device. As for the Day9 bit: just weird to see such a cynical, borderline negative positions. It's my opinion that he's a clear choice to have on the team, if you're designing a competitive RTS. I mean, why wouldn't the community at large have confidence in his contributions? By your logic, progamers should make great game designers, right? The one thing Day9 has got going for him is his knowledge of the game + the ability to communicate his thoughts decently. That doesn't mean that his original thoughts are qualified to make good game design, though. Game Design is a craft, a craft he neither has learned nor has any prior experience with (or did he develop any games prior to this?). However that is assuming he even is a game designer. I for one think he has more of a QA role where the team develops stuff and he is at charge of judging whether it is good or not. The other topic is too off-topic for this thread though. Let's just agree to disagree on this for the sake of this thread. I bet the Desktop / Mobile debate would be fun and interesting! I bet we would end up agreeing on most of it though, and yeah, doesn't belong in this thread. Good call. The Day9 bit. For a moment, I was confused. Thought, "wait, who is praising his game design?! I'm not ..." Then I looked through the nested quotes, and yeah. I'm with you on this. Stating that Day9 is a better game designer than David Kim is clearly just a ridiculous position to take. So many here at TL and Bnet like to shit on Kim and I think it's largely unfair. No matter what, he is the game designer for Starcraft 2 right now, and that is a pretty fucking high accolade on your CV (resume). Per the team credits on Atlas' website, Day9 is one of three game designers for Atlas, and there is one associate game designer (four designers total). My whole drive is that, while we can't judge him as a game designer yet, we can certainly bestow a deserved amount of confidence in him. I'm confident. I would want him on my team, and I'm sure Atlas is thrilled to have him on theirs. I sensed what felt like undue negativity, but if you're specifically talking about the Day9 vs. Kim thing, yeah. I'm with you. You know, for a very long time I gave DK the benefit of the doubt. But during this last month or so, I can honestly see for myself why people are upset. Yes, since he hs a designer on SC2 that DOES mean something.,, But what should the primary job of the game designer be? To give us the best damn game design he is capable of! This is where he shoots himself in the foot. He admit to giving us inferior design because of the perceptions of some people in the community. We can talk about his accolades for being a designer on SC2 all we want. But when it comes down to it, according to his own admission, the game DESIGNER, is not giving us the best DESIGN he is capable of. I wrote up about this earlier in this same topic we are in now.. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/495458-community-feedback-update-september-25?page=2#21This is besides the fact that every single time they make a choice AGAINST what the community wants, he blames the reason for the changes on the community with the same old "as many of you have pointed out"... If you are asking for community input, then doing the opposite of what the community feedback states (example: 80% AGAINST the current patch), it is a slap in the face to then blame the community. Another example: First of all, we would like to point out that we saw the poll and posts relating to macro mechanics this week, and we'd like to thank you for the discussions. We don't agree with the idea that macro mechanics should be completely removed. When we tried this, and many of you pointed this out, each of the three races lost a bit of their identity and uniqueness. Yeah sure... Right after saying "We don't agree", blame the community for not making the changes. Even though the polls show overwhelmingly that the community wants the mechanics removed... It has all been a facade. He is dishonest with us. He blames us for his own & his teams decisions. He admits to not giving us the best design because of community perception (when the people in that community were the minority). Then when the community overwhelmingly is in favor of something, goes against that. How can anyone claim that is not a complete fail for a game designer? Whoa. Firstly, I appreciate your passion. You clearly care a great deal. I think many of us here at TL have a visceral connection to the success of Starcraft 2. With that said, your position is rather hyperbolic and perhaps more than a little bit unfair. I'll touch on a few of the points. TL is not the Starcraft 2 communityI love it here. It's a very popular team and website, and clearly a premier destination for the elite Starcraft 2 community aficionado. But, any poll done here is completely selective, unscientific, and might be interesting to look at, but should be taken with a huge grain of salt. It would be a lapse in judgement to make the leap that a TL poll is somehow representative of the SC2 community at large, including the progamers. So I'd caution against claiming to know the heartbeat of the SC2 community. I'm sure Blizzard has given him a job descriptionYou're quick to assume what his roles and responsibilities are, but lets be careful here. We all answer to someone. As an artist myself, and professional--as many of us here probably are--no art is every truly finished, only abandoned (DiVinci). In other words: don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. MisunderstandingI do not think he blames the community for their design decisions. I think he knows he's walking on eggshells with a community known to be--how to say this nicely?-- rather intense with their feedback; so he guards his positions carefully. I'd argue that in doing so he loses some of the authority of his position, and some of the potential eloquence in his delivery is lost. He was straight up: we saw some polls. We disagree. He then peppered in with the "as some of you noted" bit, and agreed. That's definitely not blame, lol. It's just not very eloquent either. I'd argue he'd be better off just saying, "We saw your polls. Thanks. We disagree." The more you explain, the more you open yourself up to vehement and detailed opposition. AccusationsYou have accused David Kim of being a liar, and intentionally misleading the community he is designing for. That's hardcore, man. Why go to that extreme? Anyway ... I see people saying they won't buy the game because of three abilities. Three abilities that have been core to gameplay since Wings of Liberty. Core to every tournament since that has been amazing, and epic ... it all just feels so dramatic and unnecessary. My two cents. I know the TL poll is not everyone playing SC2, but the comments DK made were regarding those polls. The official forums were the same deal. And it's not like Blizzard has a survey going around for people in the beta. That's where they get the feedback from. It's more than the poll as well, if you read my older post. It's about the fact that they claimed they were HAPPY with the direction of mechanics, followed by a release date announcement that was surprisingly soon, followed by week later folding to "negative perception". A complete switch. That leaves the community feeling misdirected. Is that a surprise? Did they not direct us towards one thing for a couple months, tell us they were happy, then suddenly abandon it??? And his "as you have pointed out" comments are more than just pointing out things. It's PR speak. And every time he talks about the community "pointing things out" that is a harsh conflict with what was REALLY happening at the time. When people removed the macro mechanics, the word going around was "I like it, but the game should have been rebalanced before this!". Very few people were complaining about the races "losing their essence". That was straight PR speak to cover up the real reasons for not doing it, which by the common denominator of all the recent happenings lately being the release date in a month and a half. Lets also not forget about him claiming that all the pros were behind the removal of macro mechanics... When he got called out for stating that and being misleading by the pros themselves. He wants to remove macro mechanics, blames the pros, then when he decides to revert, acts like it is "listening to the community" when the community was overwhelmingly asking for the opposite... This is besides the fact of shady situations that whole time. For example, patching the macro mechancis back in with a message of "no community update this week". Then a few days later, "DK managed to write us up some feedback updates from overseas!". But then in this feedback update it is talking about "doing this in the next update" as if the changes were not implemented before then??? That does not add up. Obviously the post was written BEFORE the update, and blizzard chose to not release it at first, then somehow it appears out of nowhere after all the negative responses. When it comes to responsibilities, it went from balance designer to lead designer. So yes I'm sure he has more of a specialized role. But he is also the lead designer in charge of working with the community. And I completely stand by my belief that he has failed in this role. There is also a double standard in his comments, which makes the misdirection obvious. When an overwhelming amount of community want no macro mechanics "we do not agree, we're staying with this". But when a much smaller minority of the community is complaining about "nonexistent macro" they do changes because of "negative perception"??? Not because of anything that has to do with balance, or even FACTS and REALITY, but perception??? Really??? We are making major design decisions that have a major affect on the game based on perception??? Not only is that a double standard from how they treat the community on other issues, but that is a complete absolute failure of a move for a lead designer to make... ESPECIALLY after giving players a taste of how it was without the mechanics, and most of the players who tried it overwhelmingly behind removal of them. Why even have these community feedback updates, if the feedback doesn't matter? And you asked, why accusations against him? I provided more than accusations. Look at the link I provided in my last post. I quote his own words. He contradicts himself. He ignores the overwhelming majority of feedback and tells us that our feedback was in a direction it was not. He tells us they are happy with the direction and then reverts the changes once they schedule a release date. Then he tells us they believe the choice they made is the "best move for the game" when a couple weeks earlier he described that change as inferior design... Now was it his "intent" to mislead us? Possibly. Probably a decent chance of it by his conflicting statements. But I am not positive about that. What am I 100% positive about? 2 things: That he is a poor game designer for even CONSIDERING making changes based upon perception rather than reality. That he is horrible at public relations and the community would have been much happier in the end if they never did this whole switch of directions this last month, because every since then it has been a PR nightmare, and this makes it obvious that what we are being told is smoke and mirrors to hide the real issues. You know people were VERY happy with his community feedback updates, not always agreeing, but you continuously seen people saying how they "really appreciate knowing what Blizzard is thinking". Then look how the feedback changes as soon as they decided to re-implement the macro mechanics... Now in less than 1 month, the community is in an uproar, feels misled, lied to, and has lost complete trust in Blizzard and DK. Again. And your last paragraph, about people saying they will not buy the game? Because it's more than just the game they are giving us at this point. They have told people they were going to work with the community for months, asked for our feedback, told us they were happy, and then reverted the changes. It makes all the feedback feel utterly pointless. And by doing that, Blizzard as a brand, has lost trust. I personally was HAPPY by the removal of macro mechanics and the direction they were going so I preordered the game to get in to beta. Now they removed that, and I will be honest, if I could get a refund I would. That was the pretense as to why I became interested enough to play again. They told me they were happy with the direction!!! They did not even ask for feedback anymore on the macro mechanics! Then once the community became comfortable with the changes, they reverted it. They already took my money then changed directions. Why would I trust them enough to want to give them any more money? Why would I recommend anyone else to give them money? Honestly to all the people saying they are not sure if they should get the game or not, I say be VERY cautious. I do not blame them. I support them. Because I was happy with the direction the game was going when I bought it. I am not now.
Dude ... I'll not be party to this sort of rhetoric anymore. Good luck! And in all seriousness, with this bit, just request a refund. You pre-ordered a game. You didn't partner with Blizzard. I'm almost certain that you'd be able to get your money back if you demonstrated dissatisfaction with your transaction.
On September 30 2015 16:27 KeksX wrote:@TimeSpiral: Show nested quote +Per the team credits on Atlas' website, Day9 is one of three game designers for Atlas, and there is one associate game designer (four designers total). My whole drive is that, while we can't judge him as a game designer yet, we can certainly bestow a deserved amount of confidence in him. I'm confident. I would want him on my team, and I'm sure Atlas is thrilled to have him on theirs. I sensed what felt like undue negativity, but if you're specifically talking about the Day9 vs. Kim thing, yeah. I'm with you. I can agree with your sentiment about Day9 in general and why Atlas would love to have them on his team to help out. So I think we pretty much agree
Glad we could clear that up, lol : )
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Exactly as predicted. A split opinion in the community allows them to do whatever they want. They take it as "50% of players will be okay with that!" rather than "50% of players will be terribly discontent". The right solution for the players was to delay the release, nothing else than that.
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On October 01 2015 02:20 ZenithM wrote:
Exactly as predicted. A split opinion in the community allows them to do whatever they want. They take it as "50% of players will be okay with that!" rather than "50% of players will be terribly discontent". The right solution for the players was to delay the release, nothing else than that.
I do not believe they even intended to release it now.
They have always said this beta was going to be much longer than the other betas, and it ended up being around 6 months, same as hots (maybe 1 month longer?).
Plus even the digital preorder page says "*Game is due for release before March 20, 2016.".
And they were sticking with the direction they were going through the whole beta. That is, up until the release date announcement. Then everything changed...
Plus they would not have attempted big changes so late in beta if it was planned to end so soon...
Now it is around the same beta length as usual, and as soon as the release date as announced, they revert everything, and community satisfaction is split all goes to shit.
And it just so happens that the release date is right at blizzcon...
My guess? They planned on another big announcement but that got delayed, and they needed something as filler for Blizzcon... SC2 only one that can fill in that space.
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On October 01 2015 02:20 ZenithM wrote:
Exactly as predicted. A split opinion in the community allows them to do whatever they want. They take it as "50% of players will be okay with that!" rather than "50% of players will be terribly discontent". The right solution for the players was to delay the release, nothing else than that.
how would a delayed release change this situation? It would still be "50% of players will be okay with that, 50% of players will be terribly discontent".
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On October 01 2015 02:56 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2015 02:20 ZenithM wrote:
Exactly as predicted. A split opinion in the community allows them to do whatever they want. They take it as "50% of players will be okay with that!" rather than "50% of players will be terribly discontent". The right solution for the players was to delay the release, nothing else than that. how would a delayed release change this situation? It would still be "50% of players will be okay with that, 50% of players will be terribly discontent".
Did you not notice that the change of direction happened precisely after they announced the release date?
Everything since the release date has been rushed, or scrapped.
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I honestly laugh at all those guys back then in HotS Beta, who were saying things like "Let's wait until LotV to have a complete game" or "This Beta means nothing, issues are only temporary and there is still one more expansion to go."
No, it just got worse with more bandaids, gimmicks and changes out of the blue which no one ever asked for and lead to even more problems.
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EPT
