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The LotV forum right now is filled to the brim with threads about what is right and/or wrong with the way Blizzard is developing LotV. Everywhere people make suggestions for changes, polls, post (more or less) constructive criticism or try to defend Blizzards decisions in the developement of the beta.
Whether you like the way things are going or not, there is one thing that I would claim to be a fact: The community is divided on many aspects of the game and there is a vocal part of the community that is displeased with how LotV is turning out.
But there is an alternative to complaining and hoping; there is always the possibility for a balance mod made by community members. A few custom balance mods are already out there, the most prominent being StarBow I believe. But there are others too, like Starcraft Improved (by BlackLilium) or SCynergie (by TheDwf) and others.
What I would like to know and discuss is what your opinions are about balance mods in general.
- Do you think mods can ever become big?
- If you are not playing any mods right now, what are the reasons?
- What would a mod need to be worth playing for you?
- What would need to change for mods to get more attention?
- What are the big "no-no's" for mods?
- etc...
Please also take a second and vote in the poll below to tell us about your readiness to play and support a balance mod.
( the "I am already playing a mod..." options are meant to be understood as: "I am (mostly) playing a mod instead of the original game". )
Poll: What is your opinion on balance mods?I like SC2 as it is and I am not interested in playing a mod (35) 24% I like SC2 as it is but I would still try a mod (5) 3% I am not entirely happy with LotV but I would not want to play a mod either (66) 45% I am not entirely happy with LotV and I would like to play a mod instead (38) 26% I am already playing a mod and I dont want to try any other (2) 1% I am already playing a mod but I would try a different mod too (2) 1% 148 total votes Your vote: What is your opinion on balance mods? (Vote): I like SC2 as it is and I am not interested in playing a mod
(Vote): I like SC2 as it is but I would still try a mod
(Vote): I am not entirely happy with LotV but I would not want to play a mod either
(Vote): I am not entirely happy with LotV and I would like to play a mod instead
(Vote): I am already playing a mod and I dont want to try any other
(Vote): I am already playing a mod but I would try a different mod too
Thanks for your time.
Please try to keep actual balance discussion, or bashing / defending of blizzard, out of this thread, thanks.
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By the way, it would be nice if people who would not like to play a mod could tell us why in a reply. I am just curious.
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If a mod becomes big and can sustain a competitive scene, I may have interest in it. Until then I'll only play the main game, except if LotV is really bad -but Blizzard won't let that happen, hard though they may seem to try.
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A huge part of it is comfort of finding people to play with.
Logging in and clicking on "Find Match" is simply more comfortable and motivating than having to first get into a chat group, find a player in my skill range and then crossing fingers he isn't AFK and we can actually play. And even if I was to do that, so many others won't do it naturally decreasing the amount of players to choose from. And thus making it harder and harder for me to find players.
If mods would get machmaking, that'd be an entire different story for me.
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On September 21 2015 04:36 KeksX wrote:
If mods would get machmaking, that'd be an entire different story for me.
I agree. If mods would get matchmaking, I would definetely give them a good chance.
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On September 21 2015 04:42 Robzi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 04:36 KeksX wrote:
If mods would get machmaking, that'd be an entire different story for me. I agree. If mods would get matchmaking, I would definetely give them a good chance.
yeah I'd include that criterion as part of being reasonably competitive.
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On September 21 2015 04:01 [PkF] Wire wrote:
If a mod becomes big and can sustain a competitive scene, I may have interest in it. Until then I'll only play the main game [...].
Isnt that a circular argument? If everybody thought this way it could never happen.
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On September 21 2015 04:46 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2015 04:01 [PkF] Wire wrote:
If a mod becomes big and can sustain a competitive scene, I may have interest in it. Until then I'll only play the main game [...]. Isnt that a circular argument? If everybody thought this way it could never happen.
I agree it is but I don't have the spare time to invest into a mod that doesn't already have a community surrounding it. I leave that to younger and more energetic people 
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It's too hard to find matching opponents in mods. Even starbow with all the hype never got that problem under control.
Additionally many mods to me feel like either 1step forward, 2steps back. Or just try to make a different game to begin with, which I would only find interesting if they actually scraped the whole starcraft-concept.
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I am not very happy about what blizzard is doing with LotV currently so I would play a mod. Definitively!
But there is no really chance to play it:
- no players
- no in-game ladder
I tried starbow here and there, and when another player was available it was always a pleasure to play this mod.
But mostly I wanted to play no opponents were available.
So I had to go back to HotS or LotV-beta, sadly...
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I think it's the biggest problem. The player base is already pretty small in SC2 in general, so for a mod to really get going you would virtually need everyone to start playing it. It doesn't seem possible atm...
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dota sometime was a "balance mode" to Blizzard game WC3...now icefrog (who was final game (mod?) designer of dota) working on dota2 which gives much money to Valve and got big community...Guy who started dota -> Guinsoo, switched, and created League of Legends with RIOT...Wich is super big too....
So i think sometime, maybe one of this guys who making sc2 improved and StarBow will get to a company like "Evlav" or "TOIR" and create "THE SUPER BALANCE. GREAT RTS"
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Well the main game has buffed warp gate with 2 second warp ins and has the silliest pylon overcharge idea. The trailer highlighted a pylon and warp ins, 2 of the things that i hate most about the beta. At least there is a way to slow down warp gate, sniping the warp prism, but its so hard to kill the stupid thing and it too easy to win games with protoss at the moment. I don't understand why blizzard is so obsessed with having mass armies warp in to someone's base while building mass aoe armies. There is absolutely no reason to play the other races at the moment. Preventing banking so much chrono doesn't change much. Blizzard gives feedback now which basically says, we'd prefer to stick to what didn't work in the past. (I.e. we(blizzard) believe the changes took away from the core design of the races and didn't want to change) What was the point of showing us something that people liked, only to take it away and say we don't care if you liked it. I was having fun and preordered LOTV only to cancel my preorder after being so frustrated with the big FU they gave us in the most recent community feedback.
I have no friends that play starcraft and I have in the past few days lost nearly all interest in playing it as the redesign of the protoss race did not happen. The tournament games now are all gimmicky protoss wins like lilbow, rain, classic, hero, MC. It is not going to change. I don't see many players coming back/staying with the game. That is the biggest problem i have with making mods in sc2. I would prefer that the mods be made in the valve hammer environment. I would definitely try them there and I feel that the map making community would be dumb to make mods in here, that Blizzard would not support, and in contrast Valve would be willing to support.
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How to fix LotV, save the RTS genre, and revive Starcraft eSports in two simple steps (nepotistic developers hate him!).
#1 copy Starbow
#2 paste Starbow
4Head
No but for real.
If I ever get back into SC2, it'll be with a redesign mod.
The argument that Blizzard can't just make a huge change because it's so soon before release is laughable: we have plenty of examples of radically alternative and superior design made by much smaller teams of people. Perhaps they're just too big and bureaucratic for that to happen.
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I don't know about other mods, but the reason I never played Starbow was the lack of a match-maker inside the SC2 client. It is just too much of a hassle for me to find a match on a site and then make a custom game. Plus I got put off by how long they took to release the thing (it's still in beta, no?).
I guess I'm just lazy. I don't play much anymore anyway. I've become mostly a spectator. HotS is just too frustrating. I enjoyed playing WoL pre BL/Infestor and HotS early on. But it seems every time I load up a HotS game, a proxy Oracle flies into my base, followed up by another all-in. And my micro is too weak from inactivity to play a macro game vs. Zerg (can't split well enough on creep and don't like playing mech). So I just don't enjoy the games, win or lose.
For reference, if I played a few games right now I'd get placed in high plat/low diamond. Used to be just a smidgen below masters and beat a fair few.
LotV is a mess beyond all imagining. Just like HotS I suppose, but more obvious. Pretty much every change made in HotS has been nerfed/removed from the game/made the game worse.
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On September 21 2015 05:59 tokinho wrote:
I have no friends who play starcraft nor have any interest in playing it after release.
This is exactly how it is for me. All my friends left a couple months after hots. I mean, yeah i guess i can make new friends online, but they can't replace real life friends that also play sc2.
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Usually what happens in mods is that they have a few totally brilliant, yet simple ideas that should really be no-brainers as far as adding to the game, but then they make a bunch of changes that I cannot agree with without being shown it working in practice. And I rarely enjoy how their pet ideas work in practice. There was this amazing mod recently that instituted Hot Mineral Harvesting and a couple other things I thought were really wise, but then they started getting cute and removed Mutalisk regeneration and made a few other changes with distinctly negative consequences, and a bunch of posters made arguments that they were discrete improvements to the game, rather than trade-offs with some rather significant sacrifices.
There were a number of changes in OneGoal that were really brilliant, but either weren't pushed for the most recent edition, or left out some significant issues that could have been addressed with more ambitious changes. And of course, while I'm rather so-so on Starbow as a whole, some of their ideas are absolutely killer and would significantly improve the base SC2 game.
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On September 21 2015 04:36 KeksX wrote:
A huge part of it is comfort of finding people to play with.
Logging in and clicking on "Find Match" is simply more comfortable and motivating than having to first get into a chat group, find a player in my skill range and then crossing fingers he isn't AFK and we can actually play. And even if I was to do that, so many others won't do it naturally decreasing the amount of players to choose from. And thus making it harder and harder for me to find players.
If mods would get machmaking, that'd be an entire different story for me.
This is a circle argument indeed, but only because of blizzard's policy.
Blizzard will NEVER add matchmaking to the arcade to help mods UNLESS a lot of people are playing such a mod and demand blizzard to do so. And even then it might take forever (more than 9 deckslots in HS anyone?). But a mod cannot generate a lot of players without such a feature, so blizzard is kinda making sure this will never happen.
Maybe if Kespa adopted a mod and said all future proleauges will be played on it, I dunno.
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The current state of Starbow saddens me deeply.
The ladder is effectively dead, and the forums have not had activity in weeks. And it isn't for lack of quality.
The fact is that once the influx of new players back at the start of summer had faded, the activity entered a negative spiral. Fewer players meant worse matchmaking, worse matchmaking made more players leave. Queue times skyrocketet and even the core playerbase gave up on laddering.
This wouldnt be as bad if it was like OneGoal or Starcraft+... mods that tried, but didn't have what it takes to make a lasting impact. Despite the apperant failure, people are still talking about Starbow. People liked Starbow, and many would love to play it still. But the fact is that the SC2 arcade is not built to encourage such a mod. The entire game is built up to support and focus players on the main ladder. Everything else is secondary, and disemphasized by the very design.
This doesn't just kill projects like Starbow. Fun BGH like games, wacky custom game modes and ordenary casual play is swept under the rug by this intense focus on being competetive and "hardcore". Many people are exited for the Starcrafts mod... but if Starbow is any indication it will only be a novelty for a few months, then fade to being a nice memory.
Still, there is hope. Blizzard have promised improvements to the arcade, and a functioning matchmaking system would be top of that list for me and many others - followed immediately by a better access to current open lobbies. BW didn't survive so long on the competitive aspect alone - the ease of making both quick open matches and strange ums games did much more work that it has been credited for.
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So I take it the general opinion is, that no matter how good the mod is, as long as there is no build-in ladder there is no point in playing it? (because: too much trouble to find decent opponents of similar skill)
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There are some good things with Lotv compared to hots, but there are still big design decisions that I don't like. I think I would play starbow if it had an active ladder.
I tried to get in to broodwar but it was to much of a hassle with portfoward and lag issues.
So yeah right now I am just waiting for the meta to settle in Lotv to see if it will be any good before I decide if I will play it while keep on with the wishful thinking for a matchmaker in the game for mods.
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I suppose all those people who voted "I would not want to play a mod" agree with the opinions that have been stated in this thread? Or are there any other arguments against mods?
Do you guys think that there are too many mods being developed in parallel?
Does anybody believe that if we all joined in a big "Team Liquid Community Mod" we could make a bigger impact?
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On September 22 2015 07:18 RoomOfMush wrote:
Do you guys think that there are too many mods being developed in parallel?
Does anybody believe that if we all joined in a big "Team Liquid Community Mod" we could make a bigger impact?
Not necessarily to the former. Absolutely yes to the latter. It doesn't matter how many small mods there are that can be used to experiment and learn about how the game can be changed with certain tests. But there would indeed need to be an officially endorsed TL or r/starcraft balance or design mod pushed forward for there to be any level of success.
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No one plays mods seriously to gather useful data. Its a waste of time.
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On September 22 2015 07:18 RoomOfMush wrote:
Does anybody believe that if we all joined in a big "Team Liquid Community Mod" we could make a bigger impact?
No. Too many cooks spoil the soup. Mods do better when they have a small, focussed design team of people who share a single vision and know what they're doing. The more you open it up to community input, the worse it's going to get, if you don't have a really skilled lead designer who knows how to vet the good ideas from the bad.
As much bashing as Blizzard gets for ignoring the community too much, the game would actually be a thousand times worse if they had LISTENED too much. The vast majority of the community does not actually know jack about game design.
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On September 21 2015 05:59 tokinho wrote:
Well the main game has buffed warp gate with 2 second warp ins and has the silliest pylon overcharge idea. The trailer highlighted a pylon and warp ins, 2 of the things that i hate most about the beta. At least there is a way to slow down warp gate, sniping the warp prism, but its so hard to kill the stupid thing and it too easy to win games with protoss at the moment. I don't understand why blizzard is so obsessed with having mass armies warp in to someone's base while building mass aoe armies. There is absolutely no reason to play the other races at the moment. Preventing banking so much chrono doesn't change much. Blizzard gives feedback now which basically says, we'd prefer to stick to what didn't work in the past. (I.e. we(blizzard) believe the changes took away from the core design of the races and didn't want to change) What was the point of showing us something that people liked, only to take it away and say we don't care if you liked it. I was having fun and preordered LOTV only to cancel my preorder after being so frustrated with the big FU they gave us in the most recent community feedback.
I have no friends that play starcraft and I have in the past few days lost nearly all interest in playing it as the redesign of the protoss race did not happen. The tournament games now are all gimmicky protoss wins like lilbow, rain, classic, hero, MC. It is not going to change. I don't see many players coming back/staying with the game. That is the biggest problem i have with making mods in sc2. I would prefer that the mods be made in the valve hammer environment. I would definitely try them there and I feel that the map making community would be dumb to make mods in here, that Blizzard would not support, and in contrast Valve would be willing to support.
Gimmicky protoss? Rain??? herO??? Are you sure you watched sc2 games? Those two play almost exclusively macro.
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On September 22 2015 08:57 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2015 07:18 RoomOfMush wrote:
Does anybody believe that if we all joined in a big "Team Liquid Community Mod" we could make a bigger impact? No. Too many cooks spoil the soup. Mods do better when they have a small, focussed design team of people who share a single vision and know what they're doing. The more you open it up to community input, the worse it's going to get, if you don't have a really skilled lead designer who knows how to vet the good ideas from the bad. As much bashing as Blizzard gets for ignoring the community too much, the game would actually be a thousand times worse if they had LISTENED too much. The vast majority of the community does not actually know jack about game design.
I wouldnt be too sure about that. The Blizzard developement team did not really convince me of their knowledge and skills. We are talking about people who gave Zealots +30 attack damage after charge on top of the 16 damage they already do. This is something I could see in a mod but not from people who get paid for this.
Of course you always have to filter good ideas from bad ideas, but I think a quick developement cycle with well documented tests and design decisions could lead to many positive results.
Imagine some kind of system where community ideas could be upvoted, implemented by somebody and uploaded to BNet, tested, with videos on youtube showcasing the change and any benefits they may have. Then a small team of elected members could make the decision of adding the change to the mod or not.
That would be 10 times better then what blizzard does with their "we tested it internally and we didnt like it" replys.
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On September 22 2015 09:32 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2015 08:57 SmileZerg wrote:On September 22 2015 07:18 RoomOfMush wrote:
Does anybody believe that if we all joined in a big "Team Liquid Community Mod" we could make a bigger impact? No. Too many cooks spoil the soup. Mods do better when they have a small, focussed design team of people who share a single vision and know what they're doing. The more you open it up to community input, the worse it's going to get, if you don't have a really skilled lead designer who knows how to vet the good ideas from the bad. As much bashing as Blizzard gets for ignoring the community too much, the game would actually be a thousand times worse if they had LISTENED too much. The vast majority of the community does not actually know jack about game design. I wouldnt be too sure about that. The Blizzard developement team did not really convince me of their knowledge and skills. We are talking about people who gave Zealots +30 attack damage after charge on top of the 16 damage they already do. This is something I could see in a mod but not from people who get paid for this. Of course you always have to filter good ideas from bad ideas, but I think a quick developement cycle with well documented tests and design decisions could lead to many positive results. Imagine some kind of system where community ideas could be upvoted, implemented by somebody and uploaded to BNet, tested, with videos on youtube showcasing the change and any benefits they may have. Then a small team of elected members could make the decision of adding the change to the mod or not. That would be 10 times better then what blizzard does with their "we tested it internally and we didnt like it" replys.
I won't say it's not worth a try, but I do think it's going to have serious problems the more you open it up to larger crowds. There has to be a single person in charge who makes the final calls and they have to have a serious knowledge of game design theory and a coherent vision of what the game "should" be.
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Playing StarBow here, but the problem with Mods is the lack of in-game-ladder for the Arcade...
If Blizz put a Ladder in there, I can be sure there will be a huge amount of players with different versions of SC2, way more balanced and with most of the changes people ask for.
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Signed it. Honestly, if they added matchmaking to customgames, it would change the playing field immensely. No ladder is pretty much the main reason I havent given starbow, or any mod, a real try. It feels pointless without a ladder to me, it doesn't scratch the itch.
edit:
I wouldn't mind this thread being highlighted. I think this is pretty much a feature TL for once can unanomously get behind, and that's fucking rare seeing how divided we generally are. Such a powerful engine / editor, but the backbone sucks.
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On September 22 2015 09:32 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2015 08:57 SmileZerg wrote:On September 22 2015 07:18 RoomOfMush wrote:
Does anybody believe that if we all joined in a big "Team Liquid Community Mod" we could make a bigger impact? No. Too many cooks spoil the soup. Mods do better when they have a small, focussed design team of people who share a single vision and know what they're doing. The more you open it up to community input, the worse it's going to get, if you don't have a really skilled lead designer who knows how to vet the good ideas from the bad. As much bashing as Blizzard gets for ignoring the community too much, the game would actually be a thousand times worse if they had LISTENED too much. The vast majority of the community does not actually know jack about game design. We are talking about people who gave Zealots +30 attack damage after charge on top of the 16 damage they already do
That was confirmed to be a bug, because they were noticing that the regular attack wasn't actually connecting since they implemented the 30 charge damage, and then said bug was fixed after the balance changes were finalized for that patch, leading to the ridiculous scenario of Zealots dealing 46-52 damage on charge impact. It was intended to be roughly equal to just 2 attacks, similar to the 1.5 attacks that it is about equal to in the current patch.
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Honestly, I don't see how a petition could lead to a ladder for arcade ?
Even if Blizzard stated that they would do that, it's easy to say that X signatures is not enough. It's easy to ignore a big petition if it doesn't bring money.
Imo we should find another way, but i don't know how.
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On September 22 2015 10:13 Pontius Pirate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2015 09:32 RoomOfMush wrote:On September 22 2015 08:57 SmileZerg wrote:On September 22 2015 07:18 RoomOfMush wrote:
Does anybody believe that if we all joined in a big "Team Liquid Community Mod" we could make a bigger impact? No. Too many cooks spoil the soup. Mods do better when they have a small, focussed design team of people who share a single vision and know what they're doing. The more you open it up to community input, the worse it's going to get, if you don't have a really skilled lead designer who knows how to vet the good ideas from the bad. As much bashing as Blizzard gets for ignoring the community too much, the game would actually be a thousand times worse if they had LISTENED too much. The vast majority of the community does not actually know jack about game design. We are talking about people who gave Zealots +30 attack damage after charge on top of the 16 damage they already do That was confirmed to be a bug, because they were noticing that the regular attack wasn't actually connecting since they implemented the 30 charge damage, and then said bug was fixed after the balance changes were finalized for that patch, leading to the ridiculous scenario of Zealots dealing 46-52 damage on charge impact. It was intended to be roughly equal to just 2 attacks, similar to the 1.5 attacks that it is about equal to in the current patch.
Thats a cheap excuse. Picking a number like 30 is not a bug, its a conscious decision. Somebody must have decided to try 30 damage. Somebody must have written that down. Somebody must have published that number on the patch notes. And nobody ever thought: "Hey, 30 damage sounds a little bit high. It does, like, 1 shot marines and zerglings now...".
Sure, there was a bug and they were testing with wrong values, but that doesnt mean they suddenly lost common sense. As I said, this is something I could expect from modders, "testing things out and seeing what happens". But we are talking about a team of people who are getting paid for this, and they have been working on it, presumably, for over 5 years.
I am just saying that Blizzard employees are no gods of game developement. They are, in no way, better then some of our community members. Just because they work for a big company does not enlarge their brains.
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#Custom/Arcade ladders required!
Edit:
There is no cow level. Blizzard will lose interest in a year or two and then we can really have a weight into what can be done or what is to be sc past LotV hype/then fail.
Until then it is like a two base versus a one base all in.. just hold!
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The main problem is how obscenely bad the custom games system is in Battle.Net 0.2. As long as there is not an easy method to find anonymous opponents anytime you want within the client (registering on external sites is annoying for lots of people), there is no hope. Instead of that, the current system promotes a “rich get richer” philosophy; see for instance how Desert Strike is the top gun in the Arcade for the 478th consecutive year.
The other problem with mods is that they change rules directly instead of indirectly. In money maps like BGH or Fastest maps, units/structures/races are unchanged, only the terrain and the economy are modified. Changing units/values/etc. directly adds a small barrier which can discourage (conservatist) people. Depending on what the mod does, it can be a completely new game to learn, so people are not going to play it unless there's already an active player base… But there is precisely no such thing. GG checkmate.
Since LotV will quickly become a graveyard of players after its release, there will surely be some demand for alternative forms of SC2. But for any kind of mod to have lasting success, the two following things are needed:
(a) The old hosting system from SC1/War3 simply needs to come back. Far superior and straightforward. Anyone should be able to publicly host the custom game of his choice with a visible title, which will then appear on a public list that anyone can consult after pressing 2 buttons at most. And voilà… With modern features like automated hosting/start and a simple ELO system to keep track of statistics if need be, there would be the possibility to try to build a durable player base.
(b) In this stupid world, getting exposure is far more important than the actual quality of the content, so without some goddamn “hype” from whoever the high priests of SC2 are, well… I didn't pay attention to the development of StarBow, but I read on the wiki page that:
Popularity exploded on January 10th 2014 when the popular YouTube personality and commentator TotalBiscuit released a shoutcasted game between Axiom progamers Ryung and Impact.
I mean, everything is said there. It probably barely matters how good mod X or Y is, as long as a big name hasn't sanctified your existence you'll remain an outsider.
Oh well, you can still play mods with friends… Ups, all friends stopped SC2 months/years ago. GG
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The real problem is the community, the players. BW had no matchmaking and still does not have at least none that is completely automatic. It still lived for a long time having also a BGH, Fastest Possible and other custom map playerbases beside from normal BW. Players had no problem with chats and talking/writting to get a game going. To be honest i think it was quite the opposite. The chat and the not existant automatic ladder was the reason for a great community.
Nowadays people want to ladder... ladder and ladder even more. They do not care about clanleagues, clans, nationwars etc.
As long as the people do not change their mindset, Mods are doomed from the start.
(b) In this stupid world, getting exposure is far more important than the actual quality of the content, so without some goddamn “hype” from whoever the high priests of SC2 are, well… I didn't pay attention to the development of StarBow, but I read on the wiki page that:
Popularity exploded on January 10th 2014 when the popular YouTube personality and commentator TotalBiscuit released a shoutcasted game between Axiom progamers Ryung and Impact.
I mean, everything is said there. It probably barely matters how good mod X or Y is, as long as a big name hasn't sanctified your existence you'll remain an outsider.
This...
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On September 23 2015 10:31 TheDwf wrote: (b) In this stupid world, getting exposure is far more important than the actual quality of the content, so without some goddamn “hype” from whoever the high priests of SC2 are, well… I didn't pay attention to the development of StarBow, but I read on the wiki page that: Show nested quote +Popularity exploded on January 10th 2014 when the popular YouTube personality and commentator TotalBiscuit released a shoutcasted game between Axiom progamers Ryung and Impact. I mean, everything is said there. It probably barely matters how good mod X or Y is, as long as a big name hasn't sanctified your existence you'll remain an outsider.
I would think that one and the other go hand in hand. Good quality will increase your chance to get popular. If a popular person endorses your project you get popular, but if the popular person doesnt like your project because of a lack of quality this wont happen ever.
On the other hand, popularity brings play testing and feedback which will, in turn, improve the quality.
So right now the biggest problems seem to be the missing match-making / the broken SC2 arcade popularity system and getting popular persons to show case the mod so a broader audience has a chance to see it. Is that correct?
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Finland7871 Posts
Fully agree with TheDwf ("and have been saying this needs to change")
The custom/arcade system of finding/hosting games needs a change! Matchmaking is possible but overall I don't think it's as good an option as just being able to host (and advertise) a proper lobby.
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I believe mods aren't successful anymore because they simply aren't needed.
There are tons of free to play games, all with an own engine and launcher.
Why would i need to play a custom game in the sc2 engine?
Maybe Dota2's custom game scene will prove me wrong though.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 23 2015 20:17 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I believe mods aren't successful anymore because they simply aren't needed.
There are tons of free to play games, all with an own engine and launcher.
Why would i need to play a custom game in the sc2 engine?
Maybe Dota2's custom game scene will prove me wrong though.
If you have a huge friend list where someone is always online and wants to play some fun game... why talk in a game and then launch a different game? :-)
Though since you can now add friends in the way that you can chat with them through bnet launcher, my answer isn't that good, I agree
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If you have a huge friend list where someone is always online and wants to play some fun game... why talk in a game and then launch a different game? :-)
Well from my experience people don't hang out in battlenet to plan what to do.
It's rather skype/steam. Truth is that most mods are little games which are fun for 20 minutes and then you already saw everything, mods simply don't have the quality of all these other free games out there.
Maybe the dota2 scene is strong/will become strong, i don't know.
Imo custom games are a nice addition if you already are a fan of the main game, but nobody would download sc2 to play the arcade most likely, it just is not worth it.
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Plenty of people have voted that they would not want to play a mod, but only few have actually left a reply why. Should we assume the other voters agree with all the opinions mentioned in this thread? Are there no other reasons?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 24 2015 20:57 RoomOfMush wrote:
Plenty of people have voted that they would not want to play a mod, but only few have actually left a reply why. Should we assume the other voters agree with all the opinions mentioned in this thread? Are there no other reasons?
Well, I haven't raed the thread but my reasons are:
1 long waiting time
2 no match making
3 leaving after the game has started
In the end it's just annoying. I wait 4 minutes for a player, then the player wants to play a boring difficulty of the mod(for me), or I want to play a boring difficulty for the player(I am not the APM godlike monster as others  ) so the player either leaves or rages or lose the game in the middle.
I am OK with playing on boring difficulty as long as the other player plays the game and have fun, I go to arcade to rest. I don't go there to read rage lines from my teammates.
I don't play 1v1 arcade, this comes from custom games in WoL. I(diamond) have met in 6 games(to warm up for ladder) 2 players way above my level and 4 players way below my level. In the end I stopped warming up because it usually didn't work because the game was just boring or frustrating.
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"Unranked" ladder is actually the way to go for warming up. Otherwise I totally agree with TheDwf concerning customs games.
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I'd like to see how those poll results would look if we added, "assume there is a sustainable community and ladder" :/
I would really, really like to see a tl.net-sanctioned SC2 promod, preferably one where the project manager is not hotbid
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I wouldn't want to play a mod because I would want an amazing matchmaking system and ranking system.
I actually think sc2 has done quite a good job of that relative to most games out there.
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The quick match button will outdo any mod for the same reason that even pro players do most their practice on ladder.
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On September 27 2015 09:04 PineapplePizza wrote:
I'd like to see how those poll results would look if we added, "assume there is a sustainable community and ladder" :/
I would really, really like to see a tl.net-sanctioned SC2 promod, preferably one where the project manager is not hotbid
No giant muta?
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On September 24 2015 23:41 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2015 20:57 RoomOfMush wrote:
Plenty of people have voted that they would not want to play a mod, but only few have actually left a reply why. Should we assume the other voters agree with all the opinions mentioned in this thread? Are there no other reasons? Well, I haven't raed the thread but my reasons are: 1 long waiting time 2 no match making 3 leaving after the game has started
On September 27 2015 09:59 ShambhalaWar wrote:
I wouldn't want to play a mod because I would want an amazing matchmaking system and ranking system.
I actually think sc2 has done quite a good job of that relative to most games out there.
Has the idea ever been thrown around for designing some out of client matchmaking for SC2 mods using replays as verification?
Any deal breaking issues anyone can think of that would be problematic for this?
Could make it compatible with any mod, so that if lets say Starbow does not have many players, we could see a list of how many people queueing for any other mod? Should help with a lower population of mod players...
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On September 27 2015 11:58 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2015 23:41 deacon.frost wrote:On September 24 2015 20:57 RoomOfMush wrote:
Plenty of people have voted that they would not want to play a mod, but only few have actually left a reply why. Should we assume the other voters agree with all the opinions mentioned in this thread? Are there no other reasons? Well, I haven't raed the thread but my reasons are: 1 long waiting time 2 no match making 3 leaving after the game has started Show nested quote +On September 27 2015 09:59 ShambhalaWar wrote:
I wouldn't want to play a mod because I would want an amazing matchmaking system and ranking system.
I actually think sc2 has done quite a good job of that relative to most games out there. Has the idea ever been thrown around for designing some out of client matchmaking for SC2 mods using replays as verification? Any deal breaking issues anyone can think of that would be problematic for this? Could make it compatible with any mod, so that if lets say Starbow does not have many players, we could see a list of how many people queueing for any other mod? Should help with a lower population of mod players...
Why take extra steps to mimic the step that is most readily available?
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On September 27 2015 11:58 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2015 23:41 deacon.frost wrote:On September 24 2015 20:57 RoomOfMush wrote:
Plenty of people have voted that they would not want to play a mod, but only few have actually left a reply why. Should we assume the other voters agree with all the opinions mentioned in this thread? Are there no other reasons? Well, I haven't raed the thread but my reasons are: 1 long waiting time 2 no match making 3 leaving after the game has started Show nested quote +On September 27 2015 09:59 ShambhalaWar wrote:
I wouldn't want to play a mod because I would want an amazing matchmaking system and ranking system.
I actually think sc2 has done quite a good job of that relative to most games out there. Has the idea ever been thrown around for designing some out of client matchmaking for SC2 mods using replays as verification? Any deal breaking issues anyone can think of that would be problematic for this? Could make it compatible with any mod, so that if lets say Starbow does not have many players, we could see a list of how many people queueing for any other mod? Should help with a lower population of mod players...
This is that sort of client: http://eros.starbowmod.com/
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So it is all about that ladder? Even if we decide to ditch Blizzard and roll our own balance mod we are still depending on them giving us a ladder...
On September 27 2015 09:04 PineapplePizza wrote:
I'd like to see how those poll results would look if we added, "assume there is a sustainable community and ladder" :/
Since there is a very real possibility of that never happening I didnt want to include such an option. The poll was supposed to help mod developers evaluate their chances. But of course, you could also start your own poll with that.
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right now im playing starcraft: mass recall, the sc2 remake of sc1 campaigns. more fun than lotv beta :o
after that, im gna try starbow.
im definitely open towards playing mods, and i think either a good mod or another RTS (atlas?) will carry on the bw torch. ive lost hope for lotv for the most part.
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On September 22 2015 10:13 Pontius Pirate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2015 09:32 RoomOfMush wrote:On September 22 2015 08:57 SmileZerg wrote:On September 22 2015 07:18 RoomOfMush wrote:
Does anybody believe that if we all joined in a big "Team Liquid Community Mod" we could make a bigger impact? No. Too many cooks spoil the soup. Mods do better when they have a small, focussed design team of people who share a single vision and know what they're doing. The more you open it up to community input, the worse it's going to get, if you don't have a really skilled lead designer who knows how to vet the good ideas from the bad. As much bashing as Blizzard gets for ignoring the community too much, the game would actually be a thousand times worse if they had LISTENED too much. The vast majority of the community does not actually know jack about game design. We are talking about people who gave Zealots +30 attack damage after charge on top of the 16 damage they already do That was confirmed to be a bug, because they were noticing that the regular attack wasn't actually connecting since they implemented the 30 charge damage, and then said bug was fixed after the balance changes were finalized for that patch, leading to the ridiculous scenario of Zealots dealing 46-52 damage on charge impact. It was intended to be roughly equal to just 2 attacks, similar to the 1.5 attacks that it is about equal to in the current patch.
i dont believe that for a second. its not the only completely retarded design change they ever implemented. pylon overcharge, anyone?
apart from that, does anyone think frequent tourneys could make up at least a bit for the lack of matchmaking?
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Ladder and not enogh player base are the main reasons i don't play BW. I wish i could. Same for mods. But i sencerely believe SC2's potential is so much more. I Wish i could make a mod. BUT. I understand it is all invain.
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The most important thing is not a ladder, but the ability to find opponents quickly and effortlessly. The SC1 ladder system flopped badly, so the vast majority of people were simply playing on customs with a simple wins-losses-disc system; the teams were not necessarily even, but it didn't prevent people from playing. Having something that allows you to compare your level to others is fine, and even necessary for 1v1, but for team games the crux is to find other players quickly. If there is some discrepancy between the level of players it doesn't matter as much.
One has to remember that 1v1 is the most complicated and somewhat stressful experience, so team games should be actively promoted. Things like 3v3 BGH or Fast were far more popular on BNet than "real" 1v1, same as War3 probably had more people playing AT/RT than 1v1. Ergo the system should also include a more relaxing, non-competitive environment. Being constantly ranked/rated and matched with opponents of similar strength almost 100% of the time ends up creating annoying pressure; when you press the button you know that you will have to give your best/tryhard—while people coming back from a day at school/college/office/whatever are not necessarily searching for that. In some aspects the chaotic lottery of unranked public games is more fun than a strict 50/50 system with some dumb emphasis on irrelevant icons/medals/whatever that ends up frustrating people because they plateau.
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On September 28 2015 00:21 TheDwf wrote:
The most important thing is not a ladder, but the ability to find opponents quickly and effortlessly. The SC1 ladder system flopped badly, so the vast majority of people were simply playing on customs with a simple wins-losses-disc system; the teams were not necessarily even, but it didn't prevent people from playing. Having something that allows you to compare your level to others is fine, and even necessary for 1v1, but for team games the crux is to find other players quickly. If there is some discrepancy between the level of players it doesn't matter as much.
One has to remember that 1v1 is the most complicated and somewhat stressful experience, so team games should be actively promoted. Things like 3v3 BGH or Fast were far more popular on BNet than "real" 1v1, same as War3 probably had more people playing AT/RT than 1v1. Ergo the system should also include a more relaxing, non-competitive environment. Being constantly ranked/rated and matched with opponents of similar strength almost 100% of the time ends up creating annoying pressure; when you press the button you know that you will have to give your best/tryhard—while people coming back from a day at school/college/office/whatever are not necessarily searching for that. In some aspects the chaotic lottery of unranked public games is more fun than a strict 50/50 system with some dumb emphasis on irrelevant icons/medals/whatever that ends up frustrating people because they plateau.
Another think about stack ranked systems. In real life, some tech companies stack rank their workers output to determine whether a person is doing well or not. And every time (even if they don't punish you for not doing well in the stack rank) it simply creates a more stressful environment because suddenly your mistakes and flaws are visible for all the world to see.
No one goes "Oh you're bronze? That's awesome! I'm just a bots player myself--good on you for taking the plunge" and instead the dialogue is "lol Masters ezpz noobs" so that if you're an SC2 player who is not in the top 2% of the game you feel like you are inferior. Stack rank ALWAYS gives this feeling. Whether in games or in real life.
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On September 28 2015 00:21 TheDwf wrote:
The most important thing is not a ladder, but the ability to find opponents quickly and effortlessly. The SC1 ladder system flopped badly, so the vast majority of people were simply playing on customs with a simple wins-losses-disc system; the teams were not necessarily even, but it didn't prevent people from playing. Having something that allows you to compare your level to others is fine, and even necessary for 1v1, but for team games the crux is to find other players quickly. If there is some discrepancy between the level of players it doesn't matter as much.
One has to remember that 1v1 is the most complicated and somewhat stressful experience, so team games should be actively promoted. Things like 3v3 BGH or Fast were far more popular on BNet than "real" 1v1, same as War3 probably had more people playing AT/RT than 1v1. Ergo the system should also include a more relaxing, non-competitive environment. Being constantly ranked/rated and matched with opponents of similar strength almost 100% of the time ends up creating annoying pressure; when you press the button you know that you will have to give your best/tryhard—while people coming back from a day at school/college/office/whatever are not necessarily searching for that. In some aspects the chaotic lottery of unranked public games is more fun than a strict 50/50 system with some dumb emphasis on irrelevant icons/medals/whatever that ends up frustrating people because they plateau.
All true. But isn't the function of a non-competitive, unranked, 1v1 system sufficiently served by the existing 'unranked' option? If I recall correctly, in WC3, nobody played 1v1 games in the custom games section of Battle.net, and neither did anyone play them on LAN platforms (Garena, etc), as most of the games played in such environments were just that - custom games. Is it not enough to allow for a LAN system where people are able to host their own custom games, and even 1v1 games if they want to, but also to continuously promote the 1v1 official ladder?
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EPT
