EPTLotV Beta Balance Update — September 3 2015 - Page 8
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TheOneAboveU
Germany3367 Posts
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Jono7272
United Kingdom6330 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 04 2015 17:28 WrathSCII wrote: Erh... Balance is not the problem yet as Blizzard not sure what do with MM. We are still at design issue. And again, this is not what I wrote. I wrote that Blizzard will release the game with unfinished MP. I mentioned balance patches because they are not called design patches, even this patch is balance update. | ||
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On September 04 2015 17:32 TheOneAboveU wrote: I have no words for this patch... like, I don't even want to play LotV anymore, damn... Yeah because things won't change 20 more times before the release... I love all these drama queens, like it is the end of the world or something. After every patch I am reading a ton of bad responses from some players and how this is "the end" of SC2 for them, just to see them post after a week again. I am 100% positive that LOTV will be new, better experience and a lot more fun than HOTS was. It is ok to criticize stuff but majority here are jumping to the conclusion way too fast. | ||
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Steelghost
24 Posts
JUST WHY? Seriously I think that to call this game an expansions is quite laughable, I love starcraft, and Im hating blizzard for doing the things they are doing, we keep on like this the community will grow smaller, some will stick, others will leave because this game is way way worse than HOTS or WOL. God, so pissed right now with Blizzard, and to think they plan on releasing this game this year... secretly I wish this game to be a collossal failure so Big Boy Blizzard gets their shit together and makes a great game... | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
Mules, chrono, and inject fundamentally are a part of SC2's identity as a game. What makes the game fun is not the game being easier or automated - but new units, new abilities, that stuff that blizzard should have been focusing on the entire time. I wonder how much of the SC2 community is really ok with how LOTV is going. I honest to god hope most TL veterans get their opinions out there because i feel like most old school SC1 players and a large majority of TL are going "wtf" on the inside right now even if their opinion is not front and center. Autocast does not belong in SC2, the macro mechanics do belong in SC2, they were great and i think the version of SC2 we all had played for the last 4-5 yrs was amazing fundamentally with those mechanics. It was not always amazing from the balance side of things because blizzard patched way too infrequently and poorly (making units faster randomly is not an appropriate balance fix to every situation). I'm just gonna quote some posters here who's sentiments i agree with too and make really good points: On September 04 2015 09:32 johnbongham wrote: Does blizz really think these drastic changes are going to reinvigorate the scene? All I see happening is plenty of people refusing to switch expansions and maybe a few new people get into starcraft and we end up with yet another split scene. On September 04 2015 09:29 lichter wrote: "macro mechanics aren't strategic enough" "so let's automate it!" srsly On September 04 2015 08:25 Vanadiel wrote: The game is nowhere near ready for competitive play this year. I'll add more as i see em, but yeah...i wish more TL people were up in arms over the automation of SC2 tbh. When most people said they wanted lots of changes to SC2, i believe everyone meant balance, metagame, and generally fixing things that were perceived really annoying or broken...not completely re-designing the game to be Warcraft 4 from scratch. People wanted to see things like nukes more viable, nydus worms viable, offensive mech possible, no swarmhost turtle games, sentries tweaked, and new units like lurkers/liberators, new abilities, etc...why the hell in the first place is blizzard messing with the fundamental rule set of the game via mule/chrono/inject? It's arbitrary. Another thing that really annoys me about this entire beta is blizzard's unwillingness to ever test the DH9/DH10 economy models on the live beta servers. They never once let it go live and let players test it and see how it changed the game in a live environment. Instead, they chose their way of removing all macro mechanics for no reason and then realizing that that is going to go horribly and now bringing them back with automation... What is going on... | ||
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
On September 04 2015 17:45 Ramiz1989 wrote: Yeah because things won't change 20 more times before the release... I love all these drama queens, like it is the end of the world or something. After every patch I am reading a ton of bad responses from some players and how this is "the end" of SC2 for them, just to see them post after a week again. I am 100% positive that LOTV will be new, better experience and a lot more fun than HOTS was. It is ok to criticize stuff but majority here are jumping to the conclusion way too fast. There will definitely be more patches, yes. But enough to go for the design changes people wish for? I doubt that. We will see adjustments to the current stuff, maybe things like the pylon overcharge being taken away again etc. However we won't see things like Blizzard removing units(looking at you colossus) or even introducing new ones, changing the economy model. Bold stuff that would actually bring meaningful change. | ||
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CptMarvel
France236 Posts
On September 04 2015 09:25 DeadByDawn wrote: Tracking what Nexus is chrono boosting what is ridiculous. The game should show one of those lines (like it does for the target of a widow mine) that shows where the Nexus is linked to. What a bunch of babies haha. That's honestly a VERY basic memory exercise. @avilo : I, for one, wanted a complete redesign of the game and don't see how LotV is going to be a "new Warcraft 4". That being said, DKim and his boys have been going bananas for months now. Shit don't make sense anymore. | ||
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DeadByDawn
United Kingdom476 Posts
On September 04 2015 10:18 parkufarku wrote: Really? Even in HOTS you couldn't make workers while it was turning into OC. You cant count that. Retarded Terran fanboy logic. Can we swop ZerlingShepherd for this guy? It is just explaining that the mineral income is not as much as you think - you do think don't you? I hope they fix the PO problem quickly. Protoss already gets a ton of hate for cheese but now the amount of cheese is bordering on insanity. Only allow pylons within a certain range of a Nexus be PO'd. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9402 Posts
macro mechanics aren't strategic enough" "so let's automate it!" srsly I am surprised how many people like you are here on TL who can't understand what's going on. The reason the mule was reimplemented was becasue terran was balanced around a higher mineral income. It would require big changes to lots of terran cost numbers to make the game works without mules. So yes adding auto-mules is indeed a band-aid fix, but it doesn't really have any problematic consequences. It's just a way of balancing the game without forcing mechanics down the throats of the playerbase. With regards to Chronoboost, the attempt is to make it require less APM for newer players, while still maintaining some type of decision on where to use it. | ||
Destructicon
4713 Posts
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VisionFlare
12 Posts
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BlackCompany
Germany8388 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On September 04 2015 18:29 Destructicon wrote: Damn, this is one of the worst updates in a while. Auto-cast macro mechanics are just terrible, you either remove them completely or leave them in weaker but not auto-cast, this change just sucks. Planetary Pylon lol, prepare for some dumb cannon rushes. Ravager change is just horrible, it makes siege tanks unusable outside of medivac abuse, gone forever will be the days of carefully building a tank line, creeping forward, abusing terrain. yeah. i feel normally pretty positive about letting them do their thing and seeing how it goes. First time I read all the patch notes and felt icky at the end | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Of course I understand the sentiment that people like heavy macro and thus the game should feature that, fair enough. But to me these macro mechanics were mostly a chore, there was rarely a decision with MULE or inject, it was just a cycle you had to time and memorize as well as possible. Chrono boost at least had all kinds of nice implications on build orders and strategy. I get the changes and i think they improve the game, zerg should be less about being good at injecting while stuff is going on but more about tactical management, knowing when to drone or when to build army, controlling units effectively etc. The inject change is good, you will see more focus on other things and you can balance afterwards if it's too easy to macro as zerg. The terran change seems silly though, it doesn't really change much. You have automuling now just to keep orbitals as a must for terran economy I suppose. And then you still have drop down supply that you want to use on cooldown early basically. Especially as the economic boost of it compared to scan is still big since dropdown will be less energy than scan too. It does fix it at some time though as energy will just all be for scans later. Giving an oppurtunity cost to scanning is good i guess but this one feels a little silly with the automatic mule. Chronoboost change is alright, still some options with it although it will be just boosting warpgate and then tech units mostly I think. At least it gives some stuff with scouting, not boosting the nexus? He's probably got some tech going. | ||
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TheOneAboveU
Germany3367 Posts
On September 04 2015 17:45 Ramiz1989 wrote: Yeah because things won't change 20 more times before the release... I love all these drama queens, like it is the end of the world or something. After every patch I am reading a ton of bad responses from some players and how this is "the end" of SC2 for them, just to see them post after a week again. I am 100% positive that LOTV will be new, better experience and a lot more fun than HOTS was. It is ok to criticize stuff but majority here are jumping to the conclusion way too fast. I just stated my feelings regarding these patch notes, that's what this forum is here for. Nowhere did I say this is the end of SC2 for me or whatever, so the one jumping to a conclusion way too fast is you. Why do I have these feelings? Well, I didn't like playing on the last patch, this one seems even worse. Auto-casting is something I really, really dislike design-wise. And I also liked the old macro mechanics, especially inject. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3413 Posts
I hope they made it so Overcharge Pylon is only on 'Warp Pylons' or they just introduced a new kind of Cannon Rush. I'm not liking the revert on Colossus range, I think it's something that can make it contest Lurkers potentially. Long range has always been a big proponent to the power of death balls. Immortal auto-Barrier is a super nice change, but already I fear that it won't remember your setting for the followup Immortals and it's extra work for people who actually want to micro. Because you now need to alt+D(I think is the hotkey for Barrier) on every Immortal. Still don't see why Mule's can't just cost energy.. and the Siege Tank change should rather be: Medivacs can still pick up Sieged Siege Tanks, but they become unsieged inside the Medivac. Rest of the changes are either fine or meh. Edit: Overcharge works on EVERY Pylon, dno how they could not see rushes come from this, or maybe they're just totally fine with that. | ||
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CptMarvel
France236 Posts
On September 04 2015 18:56 Markwerf wrote: I guess i'm one of the few on this forum who likes the removal of macro mechanics. SC2 bummed me out at some point because the game is too much about macroing, yes I know BW is even more, but I like the game more like wc3 than like bw. Of course I understand the sentiment that people like heavy macro and thus the game should feature that, fair enough. But to me these macro mechanics were mostly a chore, there was rarely a decision with MULE or inject, it was just a cycle you had to time and memorize as well as possible. Chrono boost at least had all kinds of nice implications on build orders and strategy. I get the changes and i think they improve the game, zerg should be less about being good at injecting while stuff is going on but more about tactical management, knowing when to drone or when to build army, controlling units effectively etc. The inject change is good, you will see more focus on other things and you can balance afterwards if it's too easy to macro as zerg. The terran change seems silly though, it doesn't really change much. You have automuling now just to keep orbitals as a must for terran economy I suppose. And then you still have drop down supply that you want to use on cooldown early basically. Especially as the economic boost of it compared to scan is still big since dropdown will be less energy than scan too. It does fix it at some time though as energy will just all be for scans later. Giving an oppurtunity cost to scanning is good i guess but this one feels a little silly with the automatic mule. Chronoboost change is alright, still some options with it although it will be just boosting warpgate and then tech units mostly I think. At least it gives some stuff with scouting, not boosting the nexus? He's probably got some tech going. I, too, have always had more fun playing War3 than BW (albeit not the same type of fun) but the one thing some people don't seem to understand is that SC2 CANNOT become a good micro-oriented RTS in the way War3 is because of the amount of units that you control and of the ridiculous rapidity of mid/late-game engagements. | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On September 04 2015 18:29 Destructicon wrote: Damn, this is one of the worst updates in a while. Auto-cast macro mechanics are just terrible, you either remove them completely or leave them in weaker but not auto-cast, this change just sucks. Planetary Pylon lol, prepare for some dumb cannon rushes. Ravager change is just horrible, it makes siege tanks unusable outside of medivac abuse, gone forever will be the days of carefully building a tank line, creeping forward, abusing terrain. This sums it up nicely but with an addition that I would just like to see macro boosters removed and game rebalanced around that. Or take the ideas from Starbow: Terrans call down SCVs instantly for 50 minerals (not energy). Zerg Queen injects hatchery that speeds up larva production but cannot go over 4 larva per hatchery. Also you can inject the hatcher before last inject ends so new players can have it easier but good players can still achieve maximum efficiency. | ||
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dust7
199 Posts
You will have less OCs than in HOTS, but scans are double the cost. Playing against DT openings with a maximum of 2 saved up scans per OC will be fun. You can't drop clutch-emergency-repair-MULEs, which I think was a really exciting aspect of terran play. You can't control which mineral patch is mined by the MULE. Bases will run out faster because you can't drop all your MULEs on fresh expansions. You will have to move all spare OCs to the location of your mining bases in order to not waste MULEs. If a base has no minerals but gas left you are forced to constantly waste potential MULEs. This is as inelegant as can be. I'd rather not have MULEs at all than this clusterfuck. | ||
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