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On September 04 2015 08:23 CheRRyKiTTy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2015 08:05 WhiteLuminous wrote:
I'm really concerned about this overcharge. Have they not considered the potential for offensive pylons.... The game literally patched itself between the games on my ladder session. Without notifying me. First thing I see is a freaking Pylon shooting my mineral line on dash & terminal over the wall. Never been so confused. Never had so much fun either adapting to the game. That was most random thing to happen to me today. I'm pretty sure someone is going to break this thing somehow. Let's wait and see.
The LoTV cannon rush: now without cannons
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SoCal8910 Posts
On September 04 2015 22:55 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote:I can't wait to be canon rushed and try killing that photon overcharged pylon while the canons are building  I am almost sure the devs didn't even consider that. They introduce easy auto defense mechanics that require the simple push of a unique button to defend almost any early agression (and now also create more dangerous early aggression). And on the other side they nerf micro intensive mechanics like tankivac; if you execute it accurately yes it's scary or deadly, but back at home your macro will be lacking in the meantime, and if it's not then you are very good. If you are GM or silver, you will use photon overcharge exactly in the same way.
by the time protoss goes gate, core, and forge, hopefully you have things up to deal with the rush. GM's and silvers were already using photon overcharge in the same way before the change 
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United Kingdom20320 Posts
On September 04 2015 23:12 Cricketer12 wrote:
Creep receding faster is pretty insane though
It spreads at the same rate that it recedes, though
I can't wait to be canon rushed and try killing that photon overcharged pylon while the canons are building
Dangerous cannon rush goes forge-pylon-cannon bam dead with no probes built, no gas and no other buildings.
It doesn't go probe-probe-gas-probe-forge-pylon-msc-cannon and if it did, it would probably be too delayed, i think.
Building the MSC both delays your push and means that you have to drop 2 less cannons in the initial offense
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We haven't played enough games (Archon Mode) in the new patch for me to really form solid opinions, other the the ones I voiced a priori.
Initial thoughts:
(1) 100 energy for a scan feels like too much. If Blizz wants more creep battles, nerfing scan seems slightly counter to this. Unlock my Reaper Aerial Drone idea once an orbital comes out. Come on, Blizz. Just do it!
(2) It's amazing how a week without MULEs changed my feel for macro timings.
(3) Most of our games ended up as TvTs, and the Protosses we faced all rushed super hard while getting a fully saturated expo. It felt rough.
Too early for me to tell anything. Should play a fair bit tonight and this weekend.
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Yeeeah, in the end the more I think about that patch the more I can get behind it. Except for the pylon overcharge, that is downright stupid and is going to be abused sooooooo heavily. The kind of decisions that makes me doubt they've got a brain.
In the end, the "throwing shit on walls and see what sticks" (dunno who said that, but it's perfectly suited) phase needs to end soon. After months of beta, the game should be at least remotely balanced, and playable. It's barely the case....
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I think tank drops should have no delay with the attack but be an upgrade, like at the Factory but requiring armory or something, the delay makes having battle with siege tanks really hard now that every thing counters it.
That or make some buff for the tank. I don't know, tanks dont really feel that useful anymore and after the triple mech nerf (cyclone, tank drops, Split upgrades) maybe making an actual straight not gimmicky buff to the siege tanks can be done finally.
I don't know.
Specially since I wouldn't be surprised if they nerf the liberator soon.
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United Kingdom20320 Posts
Tanks are really awful at the moment. I don't feel like instant drop-shot is the way to buff them - being able to be lifted up while sieged at all is a huge buff already for repositioning tanks. They're just not strong enough units to be used in a realistic game and leapfrogged across a map.
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On September 04 2015 08:05 WhiteLuminous wrote:
I'm really concerned about this overcharge. Have they not considered the potential for offensive pylons....
I'm concerned about the energy cost (25 energy). This means a Protoss can camp outside a Terran's or Zerg's base and have continuous overcharge (4 PO with full MSC energy). By the time it expires, they will have 25 more energy - non-stop Photon Overcharge. WTF?
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On September 04 2015 08:25 Vanadiel wrote:
The game is nowhere near ready for competitive play this year.
And sadly the game will most likely be released after Blizzcon. I'm more and more worried that game simply kills the last glimmer of hope I had that LotV could make SC2 big again.
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On September 05 2015 00:47 Cyro wrote:
Tanks are really awful at the moment. I don't feel like instant drop-shot is the way to buff them - being able to be lifted up while sieged at all is a huge buff already for repositioning tanks. They're just not strong enough units to be used in a realistic game and leapfrogged across a map.
Blizzard was so adamant in nerfing turtle play that they pretty much outright killed the tank in the process.
The 2 solutions that I've seen make the most sense are either:
Buff the tank straight up but add overkill.
Buff the tank single target damage with an upgrade.
I think both could be worth trying out.
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On September 05 2015 00:49 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2015 08:25 Vanadiel wrote:
The game is nowhere near ready for competitive play this year. And sadly the game will most likely be released after Blizzcon. I'm more and more worried that game simply kills the last glimmer of hope I had that LotV could make SC2 big again.
Ironically enough many of the newer players seem to like those changes and (according to reddit) even people like Incontrol.
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On September 05 2015 00:47 Cyro wrote:
Tanks are really awful at the moment. I don't feel like instant drop-shot is the way to buff them - being able to be lifted up while sieged at all is a huge buff already for repositioning tanks. They're just not strong enough units to be used in a realistic game and leapfrogged across a map.
This +1
I don't understands David's hesitance to buff the living shit out of area and position denial abilities to the other races while Terran get's one new unit that is undoubtedly going to receive a nerf and gives the ACTUAL unit that is supposed to do that job a gimmick buff that will also be taken away soon enough no doubt.
What is the fear of making the Siege Tank awesome again? It has sucked for years straight so now that every race has very suitable counter play to it why not just BUFF THE SIEGE TANK?
Not buff as in gimmick, not buff as in "Lol medivac pick up that sounds cool David" or "Hey David what if tanks could teleport then they would be more mobile" buff as in raw damage.
Also, I hate that Overseers can't drop, so useless Overlords can drop at lair but Overseers can't while the drop play for Protoss and Terran which was already strong get's buffed into broken?
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I'm not a fan of the ovi drop nerf. Zergs should also have an aggressive option in the early game, just like P and T. It didn't appear too strong to me. It didn't appear to end games, but rather punish opponents with bad scouting/building placement or opponents that were too greedy or had no units because they were teching too fast.
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Tank Talk!
Rushing to tank drop is not broken, atm, imho. It's a gigantic investment. The ability to move the tank in siege mode is a nice addition, imo, and yeah, it's definitely a buff. But really, is there any other unit in the game that cannot be picked up with a transport while in some sort of attack mode (that isn't burrowed)? Seems like picking up the tank while in SM should have just always been there. Plus, it completely fills a drop ship (colossus, ultra, thor). The ability itself requires a 100/100/2 unit dedicated to the task. Then, on top of that, completely focused micro.
However; I do think there is an issue with targeting the tank in certain scenarios in between drops. This might need to be tested, but if the micro player is quick enough, he can drop the tank, shoot, and pick up before a banshee can hit the tank with it's rocket. You get the idea. This window might need to be looked at.
But really, once the game gets going, and you're up against any number of units that just fuck tanks in the ass, it's almost impossible to deal with using Medivac micro. You're just going to lose the tanks, and maybe the medivacs too, if not just the whole fight because of how micro intensive it is. The theory that you're going to see the ravager marker, or the disrupter disc, and be able to grab the tank and move it during a fight is just not realistic, imo. In Archon Mode, maybe. I think where it feels incredibly abusive is in snowball situations where you've been caught off guard, don't have the right stuff, or maybe already taken too much damage.
p.s. Obviously the Liberator is going to be nerfed. It actually solves some Terran problems, which means it has to be nerfed into near-oblivion, and soon. Nerfs I heard them considering: each anti-air rocket automatically suicides a friendly marine, and AG mode is changing to Berserker Mode where it randomly fires at friendlies and foes indiscriminately ; )
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Well this is quite the update...
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On September 05 2015 02:32 CheddarToss wrote:
I'm not a fan of the ovi drop nerf. Zergs should also have an aggressive option in the early game, just like P and T. It didn't appear too strong to me. It didn't appear to end games, but rather punish opponents with bad scouting/building placement or opponents that were too greedy or had no units because they were teching too fast.
Could you please explain to us what you consider greedy and what you consider an aggreassive option ZS1? Cuz you always talk about those things but I don't think you've ever explained your view on that in detail.
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I don't like the Mule or Chronoboost staying in the game. They should just be removed and they should buff both races instead somehow. This implementation just seems too awkward and weird. I do like the queens autocasting injects though. You decide when to build queens for better production and the enemy can interact with the queen and target it down. Queens can do other things than just autocast injects. Mules coming down automatically and having to manage Chronoboost by keeping track of which Nexus is boosting what just seems awkward.
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On September 05 2015 02:53 Lexender wrote:
Could you please explain to us what you consider greedy and what you consider an aggreassive option ZS1? Cuz you always talk about those things but I don't think you've ever explained your view on that in detail.
Sure. I don't like players being able to take 3 bases and saturate them, while only having less than 10 supply worth of units. From Protoss perspective, I always cringe, when I see a fellow toss taking a 3rd base, while having only a couple of Adepts and an oracle, or something along those lines. I feel that a Zerg should be able to punish a play like that, especially if the toss is not scouting vigilantly.
Along the same lines, I also don't like Zergs droning like crazy and saturating their 3rd base, while having 4-6 zerglings, not having to worry about being punished.
All races should have tools to punish macro players, especially if those are not scouting like crazy.
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On September 05 2015 02:32 CheddarToss wrote:
I'm not a fan of the ovi drop nerf. Zergs should also have an aggressive option in the early game, just like P and T. It didn't appear too strong to me. It didn't appear to end games, but rather punish opponents with bad scouting/building placement or opponents that were too greedy or had no units because they were teching too fast.
Disagree as a Zerg player, the ovie drops messed up our mirror twice as much as they messed up any other matches where the drops only punished stupid players more then bad players as T and P are both looking to kill any stray overlords just casually perched around their base.
It just made ZvZ a shit fest ling/bling/Ravager all in all day. Being able to bypass a wall off 3 minutes in is just dumb.
Why not make a good change like move drops to Overseers by default that was Zerg drop play might actually not suck for once it's not a total gimmick.
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On September 04 2015 17:48 avilo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I really hate this direction of SC2. It's everything SC2 is not supposed to be. Not talking about balance changes like 100 nrg scan (which is ridiculous btw) but the macro mechanic removal...never needed to happen. And they know it. You know it. I know it. We all know it. They're just band-aid patching this game and making it worse with the automation and refusing to revert the game back to the SC2 we all know and love. Mules, chrono, and inject fundamentally are a part of SC2's identity as a game. What makes the game fun is not the game being easier or automated - but new units, new abilities, that stuff that blizzard should have been focusing on the entire time. I wonder how much of the SC2 community is really ok with how LOTV is going. I honest to god hope most TL veterans get their opinions out there because i feel like most old school SC1 players and a large majority of TL are going "wtf" on the inside right now even if their opinion is not front and center. Autocast does not belong in SC2, the macro mechanics do belong in SC2, they were great and i think the version of SC2 we all had played for the last 4-5 yrs was amazing fundamentally with those mechanics. It was not always amazing from the balance side of things because blizzard patched way too infrequently and poorly (making units faster randomly is not an appropriate balance fix to every situation). I'm just gonna quote some posters here who's sentiments i agree with too and make really good points: On September 04 2015 09:32 johnbongham wrote:
Does blizz really think these drastic changes are going to reinvigorate the scene? All I see happening is plenty of people refusing to switch expansions and maybe a few new people get into starcraft and we end up with yet another split scene. On September 04 2015 09:29 lichter wrote:
"macro mechanics aren't strategic enough"
"so let's automate it!"
srsly On September 04 2015 08:25 Vanadiel wrote:
The game is nowhere near ready for competitive play this year. I'll add more as i see em, but yeah...i wish more TL people were up in arms over the automation of SC2 tbh. When most people said they wanted lots of changes to SC2, i believe everyone meant balance, metagame, and generally fixing things that were perceived really annoying or broken...not completely re-designing the game to be Warcraft 4 from scratch. People wanted to see things like nukes more viable, nydus worms viable, offensive mech possible, no swarmhost turtle games, sentries tweaked, and new units like lurkers/liberators, new abilities, etc...why the hell in the first place is blizzard messing with the fundamental rule set of the game via mule/chrono/inject? It's arbitrary. Another thing that really annoys me about this entire beta is blizzard's unwillingness to ever test the DH9/DH10 economy models on the live beta servers. They never once let it go live and let players test it and see how it changed the game in a live environment. Instead, they chose their way of removing all macro mechanics for no reason and then realizing that that is going to go horribly and now bringing them back with automation... What is going on...
Well said, Avilo, well said . As someone who has been around for the entirety of SC2's lifetime I can say without a doubt that I despise the current direction of the game. This is not StarCraft. Please...
- Either completely remove macro mechanics, or reduce their potency and make them manual cast again.
- Test a different economy system that promotes strategic expanding.
- Work on the Protoss mid-game, and fix the nonsensical mess that is the current warp-in system.
- Stop giving overcharge random buffs.
- Take a strong look at harassment...
- Tweak all the problem units (zealot, liberator, carrier) so that we can begin developing a metagame and figure out what LOTV really looks like.
I have bought WoL & HotS on release. I've enjoyed playing them both despite their flaws. But if the game keeps heading in this direction I will not be buying LOTV. I have not even the slightest desire to play the beta, beyond a rough amount of games to form my opinion. That's not good...
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EPT
