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On August 29 2015 03:45 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2015 03:43 Qwyn wrote:On August 29 2015 03:39 Tenks wrote:On August 29 2015 03:37 IntoTheheart wrote:
How would you guys feel if they just had cooldowns on MULE and Chrono, but got rid of the auto-cast? How would that solve the necessity to learn macro mechanic timings as a barrier of entry to SC2, though? What exactly is the problem here? You have to get better at using macro-mechanics, among many other different skills, to improve at the game? Why exactly is that a barrier? And why is it a bad thing? MULE and Chrono don't exactly take up much of a player's time, compared to inject. And I WANT inject to be manual. Good players pull further and further ahead with strong injects. Mediocre players can get by with decent injects and strong focus in other skills. It balances itself out. But for the people who want inject to not be manual, why not oblige them rather than homogenizing an entire facet of Zerg play so that there is no skill differential at all? Because no one has fun dropping MULE, CB'ing a forge or injecting larvae. It is an artificial and unnecessary chore.
Wow. I have fun doing these things. They simulate more difficult macro and give me a reason to go back to my base. It's not artificial at all, considering how big of an impact it has on the game for every race (Blizzard brought em' back in autocast form now, lol). You want to reduce everything down to an unnecessary chore? That's easily done...
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Macro booster mechanics have nothing to do with learning production cycles and multitasking with army, which lower leagues struggle the most. I am surprised people don't see that. It is hugely difficult for beginning player to keep making production structures regardless of macro boosters. Thats where hardness of game as core comes from
Combine that with battles that last seconds while you look away to build buildings and that makes extremely punishing game.
Thats the core problem and barrier of sc2, not macro boosters (other than for zerg which inject is the production cycle)
I experienced this difficulty in wol myself as well as when I played game against last year. This was by far biggest obstacle that made me quit for 4 years in first place.
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On August 29 2015 03:44 pzlama333 wrote:
So if Terran build a lot of orbital commands in late game, he/she has to lift and move each of them to next base. I do not know the radius that one orbital command can call down a mule, but the space in each mining area is not unlimited. So he must manually land an orbital, call down the mule (though it is auto-cast), then lift it for the next orbital to land. It may be interesting because if a pro wants to take the advantage of extra mules, he must add a lot of more click. Move several orbital commands to a new base is risky too.
Another question: how do we know if a lifted orbital command in cooldown?
With the cast radius on MULE drops it is simply not viable anymore to mass Orbitals in the late game for MULE purposes, which is what Blizzard wanted. And honestly I'm with them on that. A couple of additional Orbitals for Scan only can still be useful in the ultra late game, though. Overall these changes seem pretty good to me, good enough to beta test anyway.
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On August 29 2015 03:47 Qwyn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2015 03:45 Tenks wrote:On August 29 2015 03:43 Qwyn wrote:On August 29 2015 03:39 Tenks wrote:On August 29 2015 03:37 IntoTheheart wrote:
How would you guys feel if they just had cooldowns on MULE and Chrono, but got rid of the auto-cast? How would that solve the necessity to learn macro mechanic timings as a barrier of entry to SC2, though? What exactly is the problem here? You have to get better at using macro-mechanics, among many other different skills, to improve at the game? Why exactly is that a barrier? And why is it a bad thing? MULE and Chrono don't exactly take up much of a player's time, compared to inject. And I WANT inject to be manual. Good players pull further and further ahead with strong injects. Mediocre players can get by with decent injects and strong focus in other skills. It balances itself out. But for the people who want inject to not be manual, why not oblige them rather than homogenizing an entire facet of Zerg play so that there is no skill differential at all? Because no one has fun dropping MULE, CB'ing a forge or injecting larvae. It is an artificial and unnecessary chore. You want to reduce everything down to an unnecessary chore?
Oh look this argument is back from when they first said they're removing the mechanics. While we're at it lets also get rid of MBS and infinite select. Oh yeah and smart cast. Rally points on workers seem pretty silly because I want to go back to my base everytime a unit is created to move it as well. Oh yeah these are all things the community was up in arms about in SC2 WoL beta as well because it was dumbing down the game as well.
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Make MULE have a cooldown of like 15 seconds or some shit and last 15 seconds. The autocast however is delayed by 5 extra seconds so auto cast has a total of 20 seconds for a cooldown. Low level players still get their auto mules but higher level players will want to manually call down.
The difference after 60 seconds is only 1 mules for someone who is completely auto casting vs someone who is perfectly calling down. It's more difficult than before for pros because they have to check back at their base every 15 seconds to be perfectly efficient but low level players don't have to look back at all.
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This is just making me despair more about this game.
I wouldn't be surprised if they're saying to the Korean community that we're the ones saying that the game needs to be easier, I've spoken to a couple of Koreans and they say that the higher levels of the Korean community disagree with the macro changes and have similar opinion to us. (but don't take this for gospel cause it's second hand information)
I'm fine with them scaling the macro mechanics back slightly since they do accelerate the game hard but there needs to be a clear advantage to using them consistently/effectively. Just revert the changes and scale back the effect by a tiny amount.
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I dislike all those autocast mechanics 
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On August 29 2015 03:45 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2015 03:43 Qwyn wrote:On August 29 2015 03:39 Tenks wrote:On August 29 2015 03:37 IntoTheheart wrote:
How would you guys feel if they just had cooldowns on MULE and Chrono, but got rid of the auto-cast? How would that solve the necessity to learn macro mechanic timings as a barrier of entry to SC2, though? What exactly is the problem here? You have to get better at using macro-mechanics, among many other different skills, to improve at the game? Why exactly is that a barrier? And why is it a bad thing? MULE and Chrono don't exactly take up much of a player's time, compared to inject. And I WANT inject to be manual. Good players pull further and further ahead with strong injects. Mediocre players can get by with decent injects and strong focus in other skills. It balances itself out. But for the people who want inject to not be manual, why not oblige them rather than homogenizing an entire facet of Zerg play so that there is no skill differential at all? Because no one has fun dropping MULE, CB'ing a forge or injecting larvae. It is an artificial and unnecessary chore.
Then get rid of them if they're so artificial. Put extra larva from the hatch or a hatchery add on like a reactor and balance marines zerglings and protoss timings around having no macro mechanics.
Stop half assing and go with one way or the other. Autocast is convoluted and shitty.
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I appreciate that they confessed on the zealot charge bug eventually.
More communication is always a step forward. Not sure what to think on changes, wanna try them first. Looking forward to
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On August 29 2015 03:56 Little-Chimp wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2015 03:45 Tenks wrote:On August 29 2015 03:43 Qwyn wrote:On August 29 2015 03:39 Tenks wrote:On August 29 2015 03:37 IntoTheheart wrote:
How would you guys feel if they just had cooldowns on MULE and Chrono, but got rid of the auto-cast? How would that solve the necessity to learn macro mechanic timings as a barrier of entry to SC2, though? What exactly is the problem here? You have to get better at using macro-mechanics, among many other different skills, to improve at the game? Why exactly is that a barrier? And why is it a bad thing? MULE and Chrono don't exactly take up much of a player's time, compared to inject. And I WANT inject to be manual. Good players pull further and further ahead with strong injects. Mediocre players can get by with decent injects and strong focus in other skills. It balances itself out. But for the people who want inject to not be manual, why not oblige them rather than homogenizing an entire facet of Zerg play so that there is no skill differential at all? Because no one has fun dropping MULE, CB'ing a forge or injecting larvae. It is an artificial and unnecessary chore. Then get rid of them if they're so artificial. Put extra larva from the hatch or a hatchery add on like a reactor and balance marines zerglings and protoss timings around having no macro mechanics. Stop half assing and go with one way or the other. Autocast is convoluted and shitty.
I don't disagree. I liked it better when they just didn't exist. I don't fully understand them having a toe in the pool with macro mechanics. But I guess now Protoss have to reveal their hand a bit with CB and they are able to explore faster tech switches with it so that strategic option is back. Terran have to decide if they want a base to spawn a MULE or if they want a PF. It is even stronger a decision now because even if this is your 4th base you can't just make it a PF and MULE with OC's 1-3. It sounds like it just won't be able to get a MULE.
The auto cast queen always felt strange to me. I wish they would make it so the queen was a strategic decision to obtain instead of a "Well here is a hatch guess I need a queen here too."
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OK, so first about the macro stuff:
I agree with the direction. But I don't like the proposed changes. They feel like they are plainly being done to balance the game due to lack of time to actually rebalance accordingly to the current situation. And really don't want to see inject buffed, ZvZ early game has felt somewhat stable for the first time ever with the 2larva change.
Oh and bringing back mules while terran can additionally use the energy on supply drops (even if energy cost are increased) is essentially a buff to terran early macro, while chrono and inject are still nerfed in the early game. Don't know how they think this will turn out balanced early. (though lategame terran take a big hit of course)
Creep change sounds nice. Not having to wait forever to build walls, in particular in ZvZ and sometimes ZvT is good. Creep being cleaned up faster has been a small wish of mine for a long time.
There’s no real counter to the ability being cast due to it being a instant 1 click thing where the opponent really doesn’t have many responses to other than “use this unit before it dies.”
It’s very difficult to do a minor buff to such massable tier 1 units, because the impact of a minor buff adds up due to the ability to effectively mass these units so easily in the later stages of the game.
Really happy about them understanding those two things. You cannot plainly buff units like zealots aside from insignificant tweaks. And I hope they find a solution to make the Tempest more interesting than HotS, but not less (as has been the case so far in LotV).
0.75 sec delay before the Siege Tanks in siege mode fires can fire when being dropped by Medivacs
Don't like this one. The unit already sometimes has a turret-turning animation before it fires. There is no problem with tank drops balancewise. It's just a bad idea because it gives terran the ability to overrun ground positions easily, especially against other siege tanks and lurkers and similar units that you should be forced to take on slowly. Also in combination with the zerg-drop nerf (which I like), the tank drops could proof problematic on highground spots once again.
Moving overlord drop upgrade to Llair tech
Good change. Noone wants to have units bypassing your defenses at 3mins in the game. Now do something about adepts shadow walk ability as well please. It's the exact same issue.
What I'm missing in this update:
- Viper/Broodlord armies against Terran
- Carriers (too strong?)
- early adepts in all matchups
- early liberators in unreachable spots over mineral lines in TvZ
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The new chrono boost seems like a good compromise, we get to pick what to chrono boost still even if it's less impactful. I'm like the rest really against automatic macro mechanics though, auto mules and auto injects have got to go..
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Actually thinking about the MULE change I have some issues with it. It pretty much puts Terran on a bit of a clock. In LotV you need to spread out pretty rapidly. The PF really helps with that for Terran. But now if you make a base with a PF you can't spawn a MULE. So after bases 1-3 are mined out for Terran they will actually start to see a reduction in their mineral intake once their primary bases for mining gravitate towards being PFs instead of OCs in the late game.
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Can't wait to test micro colosus agnist lurker's ! <3
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On August 29 2015 03:51 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2015 03:47 Qwyn wrote:On August 29 2015 03:45 Tenks wrote:On August 29 2015 03:43 Qwyn wrote:On August 29 2015 03:39 Tenks wrote:On August 29 2015 03:37 IntoTheheart wrote:
How would you guys feel if they just had cooldowns on MULE and Chrono, but got rid of the auto-cast? How would that solve the necessity to learn macro mechanic timings as a barrier of entry to SC2, though? What exactly is the problem here? You have to get better at using macro-mechanics, among many other different skills, to improve at the game? Why exactly is that a barrier? And why is it a bad thing? MULE and Chrono don't exactly take up much of a player's time, compared to inject. And I WANT inject to be manual. Good players pull further and further ahead with strong injects. Mediocre players can get by with decent injects and strong focus in other skills. It balances itself out. But for the people who want inject to not be manual, why not oblige them rather than homogenizing an entire facet of Zerg play so that there is no skill differential at all? Because no one has fun dropping MULE, CB'ing a forge or injecting larvae. It is an artificial and unnecessary chore. You want to reduce everything down to an unnecessary chore? Oh look this argument is back from when they first said they're removing the mechanics. While we're at it lets also get rid of MBS and infinite select. Oh yeah and smart cast. Rally points on workers seem pretty silly because I want to go back to my base everytime a unit is created to move it as well. Oh yeah these are all things the community was up in arms about in SC2 WoL beta as well because it was dumbing down the game as well.
And I would still be up in arms about it, if it weren't set in stone. This isn't. It's a spectrum, and you need to be aware of how far in this direction the game is heading before it becomes too much.
If an ability is autocast, there 's no skill gradient at all. There's no skill. What is the point of a mechanic if you don't have varying degrees of execution? I'd argue none at all. Choosing where to chrono or having auto mule/inject and then forgetting about it is not interesting. You go from having a high degree of interaction to having none at all.
An analogy would be...what if your units built themselves? What if your army moved itself? You might argue that those things are different but I see them as one and the same. It comes down to player execution - player input. Either make these things manual or remove them altogether. So much stress on strategy but none on the real time component.
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United States97276 Posts
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what is blizzard doing
also no manner mules either
it was my favourite part about this game
edit: wow shellshock was 20 seconds faster
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On August 29 2015 03:59 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2015 03:56 Little-Chimp wrote:On August 29 2015 03:45 Tenks wrote:On August 29 2015 03:43 Qwyn wrote:On August 29 2015 03:39 Tenks wrote:On August 29 2015 03:37 IntoTheheart wrote:
How would you guys feel if they just had cooldowns on MULE and Chrono, but got rid of the auto-cast? How would that solve the necessity to learn macro mechanic timings as a barrier of entry to SC2, though? What exactly is the problem here? You have to get better at using macro-mechanics, among many other different skills, to improve at the game? Why exactly is that a barrier? And why is it a bad thing? MULE and Chrono don't exactly take up much of a player's time, compared to inject. And I WANT inject to be manual. Good players pull further and further ahead with strong injects. Mediocre players can get by with decent injects and strong focus in other skills. It balances itself out. But for the people who want inject to not be manual, why not oblige them rather than homogenizing an entire facet of Zerg play so that there is no skill differential at all? Because no one has fun dropping MULE, CB'ing a forge or injecting larvae. It is an artificial and unnecessary chore. Then get rid of them if they're so artificial. Put extra larva from the hatch or a hatchery add on like a reactor and balance marines zerglings and protoss timings around having no macro mechanics. Stop half assing and go with one way or the other. Autocast is convoluted and shitty. I don't disagree. I liked it better when they just didn't exist. I don't fully understand them having a toe in the pool with macro mechanics. But I guess now Protoss have to reveal their hand a bit with CB and they are able to explore faster tech switches with it so that strategic option is back. Terran have to decide if they want a base to spawn a MULE or if they want a PF. It is even stronger a decision now because even if this is your 4th base you can't just make it a PF and MULE with OC's 1-3. It sounds like it just won't be able to get a MULE. The auto cast queen always felt strange to me. I wish they would make it so the queen was a strategic decision to obtain instead of a "Well here is a hatch guess I need a queen here too."
Why don't we just add a Xelnaga bank where you can invest minerals or gas for a certain % return depending on the time that money has been invested? I'm sure that's an interesting mechanic that is very strategic.
The strategy aspect comes from rationing your actions unfortunately this is incredibly subtle. Do you focus on the harass for the potential of a few workers killed at the detriment of your own macro? Do you ignore the harass and focus purely on the macro or do you try to balance both? The key to a fun macro/micro experience is that all three of those options are balanced.
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i dont like any of these changes except the obvious charge nerf
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Is this wc3 so much autocast, just keep the nerf and make it non autocast
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EPT
