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On August 24 2015 01:02 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2015 01:00 Big J wrote:
played a few games with terran; haha lol, terran is completely fucked on this patch. I thought with supply drops still in the game terran would have it best but man was I wrong, lol...
Also cyclones suck balls now, lol. So basically, on the last patch they behaved like a long range/hightech crappy designed unit will behave: it becomes insanely good when massed and it's a bit inefficient before that.
Now it's just bad, start to end. And the antiair damage without the upgrade is a joke. 150/150/3 for the dps of a mothershipcore? Yeah right, that's going to be useful. Totally gonna open cyclones to prevent oracles, prisms, banshees and liberators wrecking me. (not)
Good lord, who came up with this design... Can we please just remove it and go forward with starcraft. I'm starting to consider joining the stupid "give goliath" chants - which is like the most boring and unnecessary unit you could add to terran - just because it's probably the only chance we get to remove this piece of crap. If you're getting it without marines, you're doing it wrong. You shouldn't be deterred from opening with air bc of a single unit killing one of yours before you even get to do dmg.
No he isn't, if an AA unit is not capable of defend from air units, then whats the fucking purpose of the unit? Its like having a viking lose vs a banshee.
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SoCal8908 Posts
On August 24 2015 04:29 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2015 01:02 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 24 2015 01:00 Big J wrote:
played a few games with terran; haha lol, terran is completely fucked on this patch. I thought with supply drops still in the game terran would have it best but man was I wrong, lol...
Also cyclones suck balls now, lol. So basically, on the last patch they behaved like a long range/hightech crappy designed unit will behave: it becomes insanely good when massed and it's a bit inefficient before that.
Now it's just bad, start to end. And the antiair damage without the upgrade is a joke. 150/150/3 for the dps of a mothershipcore? Yeah right, that's going to be useful. Totally gonna open cyclones to prevent oracles, prisms, banshees and liberators wrecking me. (not)
Good lord, who came up with this design... Can we please just remove it and go forward with starcraft. I'm starting to consider joining the stupid "give goliath" chants - which is like the most boring and unnecessary unit you could add to terran - just because it's probably the only chance we get to remove this piece of crap. If you're getting it without marines, you're doing it wrong. You shouldn't be deterred from opening with air bc of a single unit killing one of yours before you even get to do dmg. No he isn't, if an AA unit is not capable of defend from air units, then whats the fucking purpose of the unit? Its like having a viking lose vs a banshee.
Its almost like blizzard wants you to make more than one unit and reduce the number of hard counters in the game.
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On August 24 2015 05:10 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2015 04:29 Lexender wrote:On August 24 2015 01:02 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 24 2015 01:00 Big J wrote:
played a few games with terran; haha lol, terran is completely fucked on this patch. I thought with supply drops still in the game terran would have it best but man was I wrong, lol...
Also cyclones suck balls now, lol. So basically, on the last patch they behaved like a long range/hightech crappy designed unit will behave: it becomes insanely good when massed and it's a bit inefficient before that.
Now it's just bad, start to end. And the antiair damage without the upgrade is a joke. 150/150/3 for the dps of a mothershipcore? Yeah right, that's going to be useful. Totally gonna open cyclones to prevent oracles, prisms, banshees and liberators wrecking me. (not)
Good lord, who came up with this design... Can we please just remove it and go forward with starcraft. I'm starting to consider joining the stupid "give goliath" chants - which is like the most boring and unnecessary unit you could add to terran - just because it's probably the only chance we get to remove this piece of crap. If you're getting it without marines, you're doing it wrong. You shouldn't be deterred from opening with air bc of a single unit killing one of yours before you even get to do dmg. No he isn't, if an AA unit is not capable of defend from air units, then whats the fucking purpose of the unit? Its like having a viking lose vs a banshee. Its almost like blizzard wants you to make more than one unit and reduce the number of hard counters in the game.
Its almost like the unit doesn't do its job and you will paint it over by saying that.
G2A for cyclone is really lackluster even post upgrade.
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SoCal8908 Posts
On August 24 2015 05:20 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2015 05:10 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 24 2015 04:29 Lexender wrote:On August 24 2015 01:02 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 24 2015 01:00 Big J wrote:
played a few games with terran; haha lol, terran is completely fucked on this patch. I thought with supply drops still in the game terran would have it best but man was I wrong, lol...
Also cyclones suck balls now, lol. So basically, on the last patch they behaved like a long range/hightech crappy designed unit will behave: it becomes insanely good when massed and it's a bit inefficient before that.
Now it's just bad, start to end. And the antiair damage without the upgrade is a joke. 150/150/3 for the dps of a mothershipcore? Yeah right, that's going to be useful. Totally gonna open cyclones to prevent oracles, prisms, banshees and liberators wrecking me. (not)
Good lord, who came up with this design... Can we please just remove it and go forward with starcraft. I'm starting to consider joining the stupid "give goliath" chants - which is like the most boring and unnecessary unit you could add to terran - just because it's probably the only chance we get to remove this piece of crap. If you're getting it without marines, you're doing it wrong. You shouldn't be deterred from opening with air bc of a single unit killing one of yours before you even get to do dmg. No he isn't, if an AA unit is not capable of defend from air units, then whats the fucking purpose of the unit? Its like having a viking lose vs a banshee. Its almost like blizzard wants you to make more than one unit and reduce the number of hard counters in the game. Its almost like the unit doesn't do its job and you will paint it over by saying that. G2A for cyclone is really lackluster even post upgrade.
Its job isn't specifically anti air, you can read what blizzard said on the matter. They don't want people to be discouraged from going for air when cyclones are out. The game clearly is designed to have less hard counters and this is just another example of a uni like that.
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Immortals are bubbles lolol. I was NOT expecting that glitch omg that's so funny. Terran feels really really weird right now without mules. It's like the timing of everything is off now  . Supply drop doesn't really feel right. I honestly feel that they should just make orbitals 100 minerals and remove supply drop, because as of right now it's hard enough to justify getting OCs except for scans anyway.
I still think auto inject is the worst thing to happen to this game yet.
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On August 24 2015 05:23 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2015 05:20 jinjin5000 wrote:On August 24 2015 05:10 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 24 2015 04:29 Lexender wrote:On August 24 2015 01:02 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 24 2015 01:00 Big J wrote:
played a few games with terran; haha lol, terran is completely fucked on this patch. I thought with supply drops still in the game terran would have it best but man was I wrong, lol...
Also cyclones suck balls now, lol. So basically, on the last patch they behaved like a long range/hightech crappy designed unit will behave: it becomes insanely good when massed and it's a bit inefficient before that.
Now it's just bad, start to end. And the antiair damage without the upgrade is a joke. 150/150/3 for the dps of a mothershipcore? Yeah right, that's going to be useful. Totally gonna open cyclones to prevent oracles, prisms, banshees and liberators wrecking me. (not)
Good lord, who came up with this design... Can we please just remove it and go forward with starcraft. I'm starting to consider joining the stupid "give goliath" chants - which is like the most boring and unnecessary unit you could add to terran - just because it's probably the only chance we get to remove this piece of crap. If you're getting it without marines, you're doing it wrong. You shouldn't be deterred from opening with air bc of a single unit killing one of yours before you even get to do dmg. No he isn't, if an AA unit is not capable of defend from air units, then whats the fucking purpose of the unit? Its like having a viking lose vs a banshee. Its almost like blizzard wants you to make more than one unit and reduce the number of hard counters in the game. Its almost like the unit doesn't do its job and you will paint it over by saying that. G2A for cyclone is really lackluster even post upgrade. Its job isn't specifically anti air, you can read what blizzard said on the matter. They don't want people to be discouraged from going for air when cyclones are out. The game clearly is designed to have less hard counters and this is just another example of a uni like that.
You don't get discouraged from going air when your opponent invests into double gas factory/techlab opening with a 150/150 unit on one base, wtf. You see the cyclone, you don't go in. Now you got an oracle that still forces your opponent to make turrets if he ever wants to move out. It scouts everything. It can track your whole army movement. It detects. It even got another spell that if it goes off on half your army, you instantly lose in the late game. Unprobable, but for that potential it kind of has to be very unprobable.
You pretend that those air units don't do anything for you when you cannot kill your opponents economy and you pretend that those air units have to be maneuvered into the cyclone. Neither of those is correct.
Of course you got a point that maybe blizzard doesn't want the cyclone to be good antiair and that's fine with me. I don't think that the cyclone needs to be insanely good antiair and beat up combat focused air units like BCs or Voidrays as it did previously. But I believe it would be nice if it wouldn't lose 1v1 against a mothershipcore or if it killed an oracle before each and every of your SCVs was dead.
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On August 24 2015 06:08 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2015 05:23 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 24 2015 05:20 jinjin5000 wrote:On August 24 2015 05:10 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 24 2015 04:29 Lexender wrote:On August 24 2015 01:02 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 24 2015 01:00 Big J wrote:
played a few games with terran; haha lol, terran is completely fucked on this patch. I thought with supply drops still in the game terran would have it best but man was I wrong, lol...
Also cyclones suck balls now, lol. So basically, on the last patch they behaved like a long range/hightech crappy designed unit will behave: it becomes insanely good when massed and it's a bit inefficient before that.
Now it's just bad, start to end. And the antiair damage without the upgrade is a joke. 150/150/3 for the dps of a mothershipcore? Yeah right, that's going to be useful. Totally gonna open cyclones to prevent oracles, prisms, banshees and liberators wrecking me. (not)
Good lord, who came up with this design... Can we please just remove it and go forward with starcraft. I'm starting to consider joining the stupid "give goliath" chants - which is like the most boring and unnecessary unit you could add to terran - just because it's probably the only chance we get to remove this piece of crap. If you're getting it without marines, you're doing it wrong. You shouldn't be deterred from opening with air bc of a single unit killing one of yours before you even get to do dmg. No he isn't, if an AA unit is not capable of defend from air units, then whats the fucking purpose of the unit? Its like having a viking lose vs a banshee. Its almost like blizzard wants you to make more than one unit and reduce the number of hard counters in the game. Its almost like the unit doesn't do its job and you will paint it over by saying that. G2A for cyclone is really lackluster even post upgrade. Its job isn't specifically anti air, you can read what blizzard said on the matter. They don't want people to be discouraged from going for air when cyclones are out. The game clearly is designed to have less hard counters and this is just another example of a uni like that. You don't get discouraged from going air when your opponent invests into double gas factory/techlab opening with a 150/150 unit on one base, wtf. You see the cyclone, you don't go in. Now you got an oracle that still forces your opponent to make turrets if he ever wants to move out. It scouts everything. It can track your whole army movement. It detects. It even got another spell that if it goes off on half your army, you instantly lose in the late game. Unprobable, but for that potential it kind of has to be very unprobable. You pretend that those air units don't do anything for you when you cannot kill your opponents economy and you pretend that those air units have to be maneuvered into the cyclone. Neither of those is correct. Of course you got a point that maybe blizzard doesn't want the cyclone to be good antiair and that's fine with me. I don't think that the cyclone needs to be insanely good antiair and beat up combat focused air units like BCs or Voidrays as it did previously. But I believe it would be nice if it wouldn't lose 1v1 against a mothershipcore or if it killed an oracle before each and every of your SCVs was dead.
This. Whilst watching one of the Koreans stream LotV, an Oracle killed at least 15 SCVs whilst being attacked by a Cyclone. It eventually died when some marines came in. The Protoss player moved it between two mineral lines making the Cyclone chase it around madly, doing almost no damage to it.
The cost of Cyclones (buildings, add ons and the unit itself) and the fact they do shit to something like an Oracle is crazy.
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On August 24 2015 06:52 DeadByDawn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2015 06:08 Big J wrote:On August 24 2015 05:23 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 24 2015 05:20 jinjin5000 wrote:On August 24 2015 05:10 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 24 2015 04:29 Lexender wrote:On August 24 2015 01:02 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 24 2015 01:00 Big J wrote:
played a few games with terran; haha lol, terran is completely fucked on this patch. I thought with supply drops still in the game terran would have it best but man was I wrong, lol...
Also cyclones suck balls now, lol. So basically, on the last patch they behaved like a long range/hightech crappy designed unit will behave: it becomes insanely good when massed and it's a bit inefficient before that.
Now it's just bad, start to end. And the antiair damage without the upgrade is a joke. 150/150/3 for the dps of a mothershipcore? Yeah right, that's going to be useful. Totally gonna open cyclones to prevent oracles, prisms, banshees and liberators wrecking me. (not)
Good lord, who came up with this design... Can we please just remove it and go forward with starcraft. I'm starting to consider joining the stupid "give goliath" chants - which is like the most boring and unnecessary unit you could add to terran - just because it's probably the only chance we get to remove this piece of crap. If you're getting it without marines, you're doing it wrong. You shouldn't be deterred from opening with air bc of a single unit killing one of yours before you even get to do dmg. No he isn't, if an AA unit is not capable of defend from air units, then whats the fucking purpose of the unit? Its like having a viking lose vs a banshee. Its almost like blizzard wants you to make more than one unit and reduce the number of hard counters in the game. Its almost like the unit doesn't do its job and you will paint it over by saying that. G2A for cyclone is really lackluster even post upgrade. Its job isn't specifically anti air, you can read what blizzard said on the matter. They don't want people to be discouraged from going for air when cyclones are out. The game clearly is designed to have less hard counters and this is just another example of a uni like that. You don't get discouraged from going air when your opponent invests into double gas factory/techlab opening with a 150/150 unit on one base, wtf. You see the cyclone, you don't go in. Now you got an oracle that still forces your opponent to make turrets if he ever wants to move out. It scouts everything. It can track your whole army movement. It detects. It even got another spell that if it goes off on half your army, you instantly lose in the late game. Unprobable, but for that potential it kind of has to be very unprobable. You pretend that those air units don't do anything for you when you cannot kill your opponents economy and you pretend that those air units have to be maneuvered into the cyclone. Neither of those is correct. Of course you got a point that maybe blizzard doesn't want the cyclone to be good antiair and that's fine with me. I don't think that the cyclone needs to be insanely good antiair and beat up combat focused air units like BCs or Voidrays as it did previously. But I believe it would be nice if it wouldn't lose 1v1 against a mothershipcore or if it killed an oracle before each and every of your SCVs was dead. This. Whilst watching one of the Koreans stream LotV, an Oracle killed at least 15 SCVs whilst being attacked by a Cyclone. It eventually died when some marines came in. The Protoss player moved it between two mineral lines making the Cyclone chase it around madly, doing almost no damage to it. The cost of Cyclones (buildings, add ons and the unit itself) and the fact they do shit to something like an Oracle is crazy.
Sounds like a pretty standard way to balance something - first its too strong all-round, now its a little too weak against air. Next time they revisit the balance on this unit it will get a bit of a buff against air to make it ok, but not too strong. No need to throw a fit over this one.
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My thoughts:
On Protoss Feeling Gimmicky
This issue is really important to me in particular. Blizzard, I know, really cares about the "fantasy" of playing each race, and that each race should feel in line with its themes. I think that the Warp Gate change is a massive step in the right direction.
I do, however, still worry about the effects that Oracles and DTs have on the game. DTs have been around since BW and it feels like too much of a shame to get rid of, even if it is good for the game. They have already received a pretty big nerf in WoL with the Dark Shrine making DTs easier to scout for than in BW (I think that was a good change, by the way!). So, instead I will focus on the Oracle.
I do think that defending against Oracles is too binary. Let's compare the Oracle and the Banshee when used against Terran when unscouted. With the Banshee, the defending player can run the workers away, save scans, and try to engage the Banshee with Marines. This dance is difficult on the defending player, and he will probably still take a lot of damage, but it is preventable with good defense. When an Oracle is unscouted, small groups of Marines cannot engage the Oracle; the Oracle is free to inflict game ending damage upon the Terran player. That's not fun for anyone. I think this is less of an issue in the other matchups because Spores are now on Spawning Pool, letting the Zerg buy time until those spores are up, and Stalkers can easily stand up to Oracles. My suggestion, therefore, is to reinstate the missile turret only requiring Barracks. I know Blizzard reverted that to encourage aggression, but when aggression is binary and frustrating, the game becomes less fun for both players.
I think there may be other areas where Protoss feels too gimmicky, but I think we need further testing to reveal that.
On Photon Overcharge
I think this helps address the community's trouble with Photon Overcharge. This is not an issue I am personally very passionate about, so I will leave articulating the problems to others who are more passionate in this particular area (cough cough Jakatak cough). It is worth noting, however, that it does not address the community's complaints with the problems that arise from having so much power centralized in a single unit.
The Colossus
I think a lot of people like the Colossus' art and visual design; it may be the unit that feels the most Protoss of the all, and that's cool! In HotS, however, the unit ended up in large part causing the deathball. Introducing the Disruptor as the Robotics path's splash was a great idea, and I think the new Disruptor is fun and challenging to use. But the Disruptor ended up completely replacing the Colossus, while the Colossus was nerfed staggeringly. I frankly do not like how weak the Colossus is. The Colossus' design and lore make it out to be a very powerful unit the Protoss acciently destroyed an entire race with these guys!
The Adept
I think this change is really interesting, and I think it would really help with the issue that the Adept was overlapping to much with the Zealot.
The Zealot is a proud Protoss warrior, and I don't think that making it into a harass unit is the right thing to do for this long standing, loyal, and most iconic Protoss warrior. I would prefer to see a direction where the Adept is the damage and the Zealot is the tanking, and I think that better fits with each unit's identity. Many others have expressed this as well.
Carrier Interceptor
I think this is a good idea to introduce the kind of micro people want that isn't too button spammy, so good one here! I think the 'following interceptors' idea posed by Lalush is worth trying as well. I think that is a better direction to go than the release interceptors ability. I think having the interceptors stay alive after the death of the carrier is very out of line with this units legacy (it really just seems wrong!), and doesn't really heighten the potential for skillful usage of this unit.
Immortal Autocast
I think microing the Immortal with this new ability is actually pretty fun! But the fact that it feels necessary on top of so many other things is an issue. I think giving the option for autocast is a good idea!
Ravager Upgrade
This could be interesting, however I worry about nerfing the iconic space control unit that is the siege tank. Many others have voiced the complaint that, due to lack of overkill mechanics, the units are too weak in lower numbers and too strong in larger numbers, and I think they are correct. The medivac pickup upgrade seems to be remaking the siege tank into a flying harass unit, and that direction really worries me.
Double Mining Concerns
The economy system is something that I've gone back and forth on a time or two. Previously I thought that reducing the efficiency of paired workers wouldn't make much difference since race-specific macro mechanics speed up the game too much. Now that those have been removed, I think that reducing the efficiency of paired workers could be great!
The current LotV system doesn't feel very fun to me at present. It feels like I'm on a death clock, and many losses feel like this slow starving death that I can't recover from. I imagine that this is even worse for beginner players!
You say that you worry that it's too easy to recover from harass when paired workers are less efficient, but when players are expanding more they are also more vulnerable to harass! I think players having lots of opportunities for smaller pickups is much more fun than both players less opportunities for game-ending damage.
Auto-Build
I'm surprised that this was even tested. The outcome seems to me that it would be clearly not-Starcraft. Of course, it's silly to be upset over a change that was only tested and not implemented, and it's great to try new things! But I feel the complaints of others in the community that the fact that this was even tested at all shows some concerns about the direction Blizzard wants to take the game...
For these last two ideas that were only tested internally, I think it would be very interesting and fun if they were released in the Beta as extension mods for custom games! For a paired-worker efficiency reduction mod, we would all have a chance to try out one of the most requested changes in the beta itself, and make our own judgement. Indeed, the change could be terrible. But it would be interesting to see Blizzard's approach to this and see what it's like, and maybe why it doesn't work! As for the auto-building, I think a lot of people could just find it fun to play around with, and it might also be really fun for newer players to play some casual games with friends!
It's true that this could slightly detract from true beta testing, but if it's just an extension mod, it will surely not gain the traction that the main ladder will.
Edit: This ended up being really long. Sorry guys. T-T
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On August 24 2015 07:10 a_flayer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2015 06:52 DeadByDawn wrote:On August 24 2015 06:08 Big J wrote:On August 24 2015 05:23 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 24 2015 05:20 jinjin5000 wrote:On August 24 2015 05:10 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 24 2015 04:29 Lexender wrote:On August 24 2015 01:02 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 24 2015 01:00 Big J wrote:
played a few games with terran; haha lol, terran is completely fucked on this patch. I thought with supply drops still in the game terran would have it best but man was I wrong, lol...
Also cyclones suck balls now, lol. So basically, on the last patch they behaved like a long range/hightech crappy designed unit will behave: it becomes insanely good when massed and it's a bit inefficient before that.
Now it's just bad, start to end. And the antiair damage without the upgrade is a joke. 150/150/3 for the dps of a mothershipcore? Yeah right, that's going to be useful. Totally gonna open cyclones to prevent oracles, prisms, banshees and liberators wrecking me. (not)
Good lord, who came up with this design... Can we please just remove it and go forward with starcraft. I'm starting to consider joining the stupid "give goliath" chants - which is like the most boring and unnecessary unit you could add to terran - just because it's probably the only chance we get to remove this piece of crap. If you're getting it without marines, you're doing it wrong. You shouldn't be deterred from opening with air bc of a single unit killing one of yours before you even get to do dmg. No he isn't, if an AA unit is not capable of defend from air units, then whats the fucking purpose of the unit? Its like having a viking lose vs a banshee. Its almost like blizzard wants you to make more than one unit and reduce the number of hard counters in the game. Its almost like the unit doesn't do its job and you will paint it over by saying that. G2A for cyclone is really lackluster even post upgrade. Its job isn't specifically anti air, you can read what blizzard said on the matter. They don't want people to be discouraged from going for air when cyclones are out. The game clearly is designed to have less hard counters and this is just another example of a uni like that. You don't get discouraged from going air when your opponent invests into double gas factory/techlab opening with a 150/150 unit on one base, wtf. You see the cyclone, you don't go in. Now you got an oracle that still forces your opponent to make turrets if he ever wants to move out. It scouts everything. It can track your whole army movement. It detects. It even got another spell that if it goes off on half your army, you instantly lose in the late game. Unprobable, but for that potential it kind of has to be very unprobable. You pretend that those air units don't do anything for you when you cannot kill your opponents economy and you pretend that those air units have to be maneuvered into the cyclone. Neither of those is correct. Of course you got a point that maybe blizzard doesn't want the cyclone to be good antiair and that's fine with me. I don't think that the cyclone needs to be insanely good antiair and beat up combat focused air units like BCs or Voidrays as it did previously. But I believe it would be nice if it wouldn't lose 1v1 against a mothershipcore or if it killed an oracle before each and every of your SCVs was dead. This. Whilst watching one of the Koreans stream LotV, an Oracle killed at least 15 SCVs whilst being attacked by a Cyclone. It eventually died when some marines came in. The Protoss player moved it between two mineral lines making the Cyclone chase it around madly, doing almost no damage to it. The cost of Cyclones (buildings, add ons and the unit itself) and the fact they do shit to something like an Oracle is crazy. Sounds like a pretty standard way to balance something - first its too strong all-round, now its a little too weak against air. Next time they revisit the balance on this unit it will get a bit of a buff against air to make it ok, but not too strong. No need to throw a fit over this one.
You would like to this think so. I would like to think that they can work out some of the problems a little in advance, but then I am a software developer and do a lot of analysis in my job.
Given that PB has been OP for a heck of a long time now, adept all-ins are causing rage in the T part of the community, liberators being OP in certain matches, etc ... and now they turn the apple cart upside down with the macro removal, then suggesting that Blizz are following standard balancing methods is a little naive imo.
The next balance patch will tell us, but in the meantime they need to hear the frustration that this is all causing.
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SoCal8908 Posts
On August 24 2015 06:08 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2015 05:23 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 24 2015 05:20 jinjin5000 wrote:On August 24 2015 05:10 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 24 2015 04:29 Lexender wrote:On August 24 2015 01:02 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 24 2015 01:00 Big J wrote:
played a few games with terran; haha lol, terran is completely fucked on this patch. I thought with supply drops still in the game terran would have it best but man was I wrong, lol...
Also cyclones suck balls now, lol. So basically, on the last patch they behaved like a long range/hightech crappy designed unit will behave: it becomes insanely good when massed and it's a bit inefficient before that.
Now it's just bad, start to end. And the antiair damage without the upgrade is a joke. 150/150/3 for the dps of a mothershipcore? Yeah right, that's going to be useful. Totally gonna open cyclones to prevent oracles, prisms, banshees and liberators wrecking me. (not)
Good lord, who came up with this design... Can we please just remove it and go forward with starcraft. I'm starting to consider joining the stupid "give goliath" chants - which is like the most boring and unnecessary unit you could add to terran - just because it's probably the only chance we get to remove this piece of crap. If you're getting it without marines, you're doing it wrong. You shouldn't be deterred from opening with air bc of a single unit killing one of yours before you even get to do dmg. No he isn't, if an AA unit is not capable of defend from air units, then whats the fucking purpose of the unit? Its like having a viking lose vs a banshee. Its almost like blizzard wants you to make more than one unit and reduce the number of hard counters in the game. Its almost like the unit doesn't do its job and you will paint it over by saying that. G2A for cyclone is really lackluster even post upgrade. Its job isn't specifically anti air, you can read what blizzard said on the matter. They don't want people to be discouraged from going for air when cyclones are out. The game clearly is designed to have less hard counters and this is just another example of a uni like that. You don't get discouraged from going air when your opponent invests into double gas factory/techlab opening with a 150/150 unit on one base, wtf. You see the cyclone, you don't go in. Now you got an oracle that still forces your opponent to make turrets if he ever wants to move out. It scouts everything. It can track your whole army movement. It detects. It even got another spell that if it goes off on half your army, you instantly lose in the late game. Unprobable, but for that potential it kind of has to be very unprobable. You pretend that those air units don't do anything for you when you cannot kill your opponents economy and you pretend that those air units have to be maneuvered into the cyclone. Neither of those is correct. Of course you got a point that maybe blizzard doesn't want the cyclone to be good antiair and that's fine with me. I don't think that the cyclone needs to be insanely good antiair and beat up combat focused air units like BCs or Voidrays as it did previously. But I believe it would be nice if it wouldn't lose 1v1 against a mothershipcore or if it killed an oracle before each and every of your SCVs was dead.
Dunno, I was recently double stargated with oracles and scouted it after the oracles were out. (Scouted double gas and invested in cyclones. I put 1 in each mineral line with a handful of marines and it did just fine making sure they couldn't harass nor get away. Maybe the Korean player got a bad read on his opponent or didn't get to scout in time, but without the need to mule, I was able to scan freely. Wasn't an issue for me.
You're right that the oracle has other unique uses but at the same time it wasn't fair that air harassment was invested in and completely shut down by a unit that the Oracle had no chance against. And its not true of the other air units in the game too, they don't all have insane utility outside of their attack.
But ultimately I don't understand why anyone would be so upset about a unit not being able to kill something it's not designed to kill without some back up. Siege tanks can lose to zerglings but does that mean blizz fucked up with the siege tank design? No, you just didn't have anything to support it.
Lock on by itself is strong if you micro bc it outranges many units and can chase them down with impunity as a result. Bring some supporting units along for the ride and you're all set.
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
Now it's just bad, start to end. And the antiair damage without the upgrade is a joke. 150/150/3 for the dps of a mothershipcore? Yeah right, that's going to be useful.
MSC can't shoot up.
It's 120 damage over 14 seconds. It means that they can still contribute to a range of situations without being dead weight, so you can afford to make more of them both early and late game.
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On August 24 2015 06:52 DeadByDawn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2015 06:08 Big J wrote:On August 24 2015 05:23 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 24 2015 05:20 jinjin5000 wrote:On August 24 2015 05:10 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 24 2015 04:29 Lexender wrote:On August 24 2015 01:02 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 24 2015 01:00 Big J wrote:
played a few games with terran; haha lol, terran is completely fucked on this patch. I thought with supply drops still in the game terran would have it best but man was I wrong, lol...
Also cyclones suck balls now, lol. So basically, on the last patch they behaved like a long range/hightech crappy designed unit will behave: it becomes insanely good when massed and it's a bit inefficient before that.
Now it's just bad, start to end. And the antiair damage without the upgrade is a joke. 150/150/3 for the dps of a mothershipcore? Yeah right, that's going to be useful. Totally gonna open cyclones to prevent oracles, prisms, banshees and liberators wrecking me. (not)
Good lord, who came up with this design... Can we please just remove it and go forward with starcraft. I'm starting to consider joining the stupid "give goliath" chants - which is like the most boring and unnecessary unit you could add to terran - just because it's probably the only chance we get to remove this piece of crap. If you're getting it without marines, you're doing it wrong. You shouldn't be deterred from opening with air bc of a single unit killing one of yours before you even get to do dmg. No he isn't, if an AA unit is not capable of defend from air units, then whats the fucking purpose of the unit? Its like having a viking lose vs a banshee. Its almost like blizzard wants you to make more than one unit and reduce the number of hard counters in the game. Its almost like the unit doesn't do its job and you will paint it over by saying that. G2A for cyclone is really lackluster even post upgrade. Its job isn't specifically anti air, you can read what blizzard said on the matter. They don't want people to be discouraged from going for air when cyclones are out. The game clearly is designed to have less hard counters and this is just another example of a uni like that. You don't get discouraged from going air when your opponent invests into double gas factory/techlab opening with a 150/150 unit on one base, wtf. You see the cyclone, you don't go in. Now you got an oracle that still forces your opponent to make turrets if he ever wants to move out. It scouts everything. It can track your whole army movement. It detects. It even got another spell that if it goes off on half your army, you instantly lose in the late game. Unprobable, but for that potential it kind of has to be very unprobable. You pretend that those air units don't do anything for you when you cannot kill your opponents economy and you pretend that those air units have to be maneuvered into the cyclone. Neither of those is correct. Of course you got a point that maybe blizzard doesn't want the cyclone to be good antiair and that's fine with me. I don't think that the cyclone needs to be insanely good antiair and beat up combat focused air units like BCs or Voidrays as it did previously. But I believe it would be nice if it wouldn't lose 1v1 against a mothershipcore or if it killed an oracle before each and every of your SCVs was dead. This. Whilst watching one of the Koreans stream LotV, an Oracle killed at least 15 SCVs whilst being attacked by a Cyclone. It eventually died when some marines came in.
BS.. link? I don't believe that at all
Also, where were the marines at first?
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change zerg macro mechanics back to how they were.....as if zvz wasnt a complete mirror already... now its a skill less mirror. uninstalled
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
and Stalkers can easily stand up to Oracles
while oracles can't effectively kill stalkers, i still feel it can be a pretty binary defense for protoss. Since Oracles are light, it takes over 10 real seconds (14 HOTS game seconds) for a stalker to kill one, assuming it's in range the entire time - so it takes 2-3 stalkers, sometimes even per mineral line to prevent significant damage. Being caught off guard usually involves losing a couple of workers, and then even a few more as your stalkers move into position before the fight even starts.
Oracles as a whole feel pretty all-or-nothing since their combat ability is solely based on a low range, insane DPS attack which only really affects one armor type.
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This is definitely the right idea.
Also, please when dealing with Protoss. ask Protoss players. Not terran and zerg players.
I am so disgusted by MorroW right now. Actually sick of what he thinks. The Korean scene sees so much more diversity and understanding and hard work. The builds are wayy more interesting. And most of the vP games I've been seeing in code S hinge upon 3 bases. What cheese and gimmick.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 23 2015 19:33 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +dota 2 has it, and is not suffering one bit for it. we should exactly copy the %25 random In sc2 if you have vision of a unit on high ground, you can weigh up interactions and make decisions based on how much damage you would deal/take - if it's random to some extent, small exchanges would be much more coinflippy. When you're firing 30 attacks, missing 25% of them isn't a problem - but when you attack twice, you'd have a 1 in 16 chance of doing literally 0 damage with those odds
my thing is, dota and brood war did (are doing) fine with random miss chance uphill. i feel there is no practical argument against such a high ground advantage. having vision be the only factor in high ground advantage makes the game actually flat, similar to league of legends and heroes, instead of dota. as soon as i have vision (observer, medivac, overlord), the terrain becomes as if there were no cliff.
and wait, how exactly is attacking twice somehow 1 in 16? each attack is 1 in 4 misses. any exchange from a terrain difference (again, not present in LoL, heroes, or SC2) should be coin-flippy for the lower ground player, as that is a disadvantage on the lower ground.
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"Introducing auto-build on units"
Did they SERIOUSLY give THAT a shot???? LOL.
This raises a major issue : who do they think belong to the "voicing community" that they deal with? Which semi-competent player would even consider such a change?
Who the hell is DK talking to here?
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Just remove this worst patch ever who just destroy all that whats good in this game and make it special.
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
as soon as i have vision (observer, medivac, overlord), the terrain becomes as if there were no cliff.
and wait, how exactly is attacking twice somehow 1 in 16? each attack is 1 in 4 misses.
You have a 1/4 ^2 chance (1/16) to miss both shots if you right click on an enemy and take your hands off the keyboard+mouse.
any exchange from a terrain difference (again, not present in LoL, heroes, or SC2) should be coin-flippy for the lower ground player, as that is a disadvantage on the lower ground.
Advantage/disadvantage i could agree with. There is already some though, especially on smaller ramps. Somebody on high ground can retreat and you often can't chase them directly (so they can back out of a fight temporarily while defending), getting up anything but a huge ramp becomes a challenge due to concaves from enemy, forcefields etc.
Further advantage i could maybe agree with, but coin flippy by design? There's no need for that. Shall we make a unit that hits for 20 damage but has a 10% chance to deal 80 damage and you don't know until the shot lands? What about 20% chance? 50% chance? It's just not a fun way to play a competitive game.
A small chance for something important to happen becomes very fluky, random. It will disproportionately impact some games/attacks while not affecting others at all. A 50% chance will have streaks in either direction, like flipping a coin and landing tails 3 times in a row.
If you make it non-random, like the LoL system of crits (where if you have 40% crit and you shoot enemy but don't crit, shoot again but don't crit - the game engine raises the chance that your third attack will crit to even the odds short term) then it will be gamed, abused and it will add to the skill/difficulty and knowledge burden of playing the game and interacting in any kind of battle.
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EPT
