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Community Feedback Update - August 21

Forum Index > Legacy of the Void
419 CommentsPost a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 19 20 21 Next All
SetGuitarsToKill
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
Canada28396 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-21 18:22:34
August 21 2015 17:55 GMT
#1
[image loading]

Before we begin, we’d like to send a shout-out to the highest level pro-gamers out there in Korea who are always looking to find new strategies, counters to those strategies, and doing all they can to find solutions to obstacles within the game. It is both inspiring and admirable to see top end players who work through significant adversity to adapt and find new strategies and tactics. In many of the top-end pro-level HotS games this week, we saw lots of interesting counters to certain strategies that were seen as unbeatable, and it was awesome to be reminded that there are players out there who will explore things to find their own solutions rather than immediately jumping to extreme conclusions.

Heart of the Swarm Mech/Swarm Host Balance Test Map

We’ve seen your feedback regarding TvZ mech play, and we agree that certain mech games are dragging on too long. We’ve seen a lot of potential in this area as well, as some mech games have been packed with action. These have cultivated in unique max vs. max battles with heavy tech switches on the Zerg side.

With that said, we’re testing these Swarm Host changes:
  • Supply cost decreased from 4 to 3
  • Cost changed from 100/200 to 200/100
  • Locusts can fly without having the upgrade
  • Locust health down from 65 to 50


We believe this could be a good change that helps against Terran mech and against Protoss in a fun way. To reiterate, we don’t want to jump to conclusions and we don’t know if Zerg is underpowered against mech. With this test map, we can prepare a patch if that turns out to be the case. We’ll try to get the test map up next week.

Now, let’s talk about Legacy of the Void.

Protoss Feels “Gimmicky” Compared to Other Races
Thank you for discussions in this area this week. The main points that could contribute to the “gimmicky” feelings point toward offensive warp-ins, which should be addressed with this week’s patch. So overall, this is potentially a non-issue if testing goes smoothly with the new changes.

We didn’t quite agree with some of the other main arguments in this area. We feel that the consequences of not scouting if the opponent is going for Oracles or a Dark Shrine is just StarCraft II, not a case of Protoss being gimmicky. For example, if I’m going mech and I don’t scout that the opponent is going fast Spire, I could be at a huge disadvantage because my AA isn’t out yet. The same goes for things like proxy cloaked Banshee, Baneling bust, or any strategy any race can do that requires scouting and reacting. Scouting is a critical component of StarCraft II, and we want to increase its importance in Legacy of the Void.

Our goal is to give players plenty of strategically viable openers in Void in order to have more action throughout the course of the game. That’s why we’re adding tools to other races, including individual Overlord transport, Liberator harassment, Nydus changes, Siege Tank Siege Mode drops, and so on.

With that said, more options aren’t always better. If a race just has so many options that they can’t be effectively scouted, we would obviously look into ways to either increase scouting capabilities for the other races, or reduce some options on a race. We will definitely need to do a pass at this before the game launch, so please remember to not be too quick to judge. Previous experience has shown that learning to defend something takes more time than going on the offensive with new tools.

During beta tests, small groups of players often arrive at conclusions concerning a topic and, even though their assertion may no longer be the case, they just can’t let go. We encourage everyone to be more open minded in actually discussing and testing changes during this beta so that we can work towards having the best possible StarCraft II.

It’s one of the main reasons why we’re communicating with you more than ever before—it’s unproductive to focus on preconceived notions while not paying attention to the actual state of the game.

Mothership Core Photon Overcharge
We’ve been exploring a change to how this ability works based on your suggestions. Our current change is for the ability costs less, to only be cast on Pylons, and to no longer have siege range. We’re seeing a lot more interaction with this ability use due to this change, because now there are lots of decisions to be made on both sides. For example:

How many Pylons need to be overcharged?
How many and what type of Pylon building placement is optimal in case Overcharge needs to be used?
Do you avoid their firing radius, kill the Pylon, or run away?

We haven’t been too focused on this change recently, but we will continue testing and hopefully make a call before the next balance update.

Colossus
We heard your feedback that the Colossus nerf was too much, and regarding Colossi having a more general role like they do in Heart of the Swarm. We’ve been testing Colossus in combination with Disruptors and the results are cool so far. We started playtesting with their upgraded range back to 9, and the combination of the redesigned Disruptors supported by Colossi looks to be going well.

Adept
We agree that early game Adepts can be a bit too powerful, and we would like to see a greater variety in Protoss army compositions. We have been trying various suggestions internally, and are leaning towards changing their cost from 100/25 to 75/50. This will slow down how many Adepts can be massed early on, and in the later stages of the game, it’ll be more of a commitment when going heavy Adepts. Another benefit that we’re seeing in the late game is that the army composition becomes more diverse due to the minerals-to-gas ratio. We will continue reviewing this internally and hopefully get it out to the beta if testing continues to go well.

Carrier Interceptor Behavior
We’d like to thank you for your suggestions in this area. Based on your feedback, we’ve been exploring a change to issuing orders to the Interceptor. Even when Interceptors are starting to return to the Carrier, it is now possible to issue a new order to have them instantly attack another target without having to first return to the Carrier. We’ve put this change in this week’s balance patch.

Immortal
We agree with your feedback in that the new ability is quite difficult to use for a majority of players, and this ability might only impact the highest-level of players out there. Therefore, we’ve been trying out having the ability auto-cast by default. We’re noticing that this change is allowing Protoss to be able to focus on the more important parts of engagements, while Immortals continue to function at a high efficiency. At the same time, in order to use the ability for maximum efficiency, the highest-level players who have the extra micro to spare should turn this off. Thank you for this suggestion, and we will continue testing this change internally before making the call to have it go out to the beta.

Ravager Upgrade
We’re playing around with a new Ravager upgrade internally that increases the cast range of Corrosive Bile from 9 to 13. The idea here is to have a stronger counter to Siege Tank and entice Terran players to use different unit compositions depending on how the Zerg is playing. For example, if Zerg is going heavy Hydra/Lurkers, units like Liberators or Siege Tanks would be stronger, whereas if Zerg is going heavy Roach/Ravagers, Siege Tanks or Liberators might not be as strong as other units such as Cyclones or speed-upgraded Banshees.

Further Learnings From Internal Testing

Finally, we’d like to talk about a couple major changes suggested by our community that didn’t quite turn out to have as positive of an effect as we had hoped. We’ve been discussing and playtesting the following two areas internally, and have decided that both are not fit for beta testing.

  • Reducing the number of workers per base so that army sizes become bigger


When trying out this change, we determined that reducing the workers needed per base isn’t good for the game because many of the coolest moments in StarCraft II come from worker harassment. With fewer workers, it was just too easy to rebuild after taking economic damage, making these moments less meaningful.

We also looked into feedback suggesting we reduce the efficiency of workers when more than 1 is mining at a single mineral patch. This was aimed at making expanding result in a higher income more often than not, even when on an equal worker count. What we found is that expanding quickly and often already feels like a big advantage in Void, so this change does not feel all that different in terms of when you want to expand. Also, when you do expand faster and have your workers more spread out, it’s easier to replenish workers that you’ve lost to harassment. As we stated above, this is the opposite of what we’re looking to accomplish with the economy changes.


  • Introducing auto-build on units


This changed up the game to such a great degree that the game didn’t feel like StarCraft II anymore. It also wasn’t as simple as it sounds. New issues kept popping up, including difficulties expanding or saving up resources, since float was automatically being spent.


Even though we won’t be testing either of these changes in the beta, we wanted to get our results out to you for better communication. Thank you for your continued support during the beta, and please remember that while discussions are important, actually playtesting the beta is critical to the success of Legacy of the Void. Please check out the major changes that went into this week’s patch in actual games, and continue giving us your feedback. We appreciate all the effort you’re putting into making this the best version of StarCraft II yet.

Thank you. - David Kim

Source
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Community News"As long as you have a warp prism you can't be bad at harassment" - Maru | @SetGuitars2Kill
Ketch
Profile Joined October 2010
Netherlands7285 Posts
August 21 2015 17:57 GMT
#2
Ok, then i'll stop editing my post and not post it at all . Great update from my point of view!
Lunareste
Profile Joined July 2011
United States3596 Posts
August 21 2015 18:03 GMT
#3
Please just delete the fucking Colossus already.
KT FlaSh FOREVER
linuxguru1
Profile Joined February 2012
110 Posts
August 21 2015 18:06 GMT
#4
There are some good ideas in there, but please don't pursue auto-building units...
RFDaemoniac
Profile Joined September 2011
United States544 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-21 18:15:23
August 21 2015 18:13 GMT
#5
Not that I'm advocating for this, but a solution to auto build that would feel pretty good is to just not charge for the cost of a unit if it is queued, and only doing so once it starts being produced.

It's disappointing that they think having fewer workers at a base makes it less worthwhile to harass, and yet encourage having bases with only half as many workers on them. I would be willing to increase worker build time if it meant gaining a mining efficiency curve. Or even better reverting the 60% mineral patches that they currently use to full mineral patches.
mishimaBeef
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada2259 Posts
August 21 2015 18:19 GMT
#6
hyyyyyyyype!
Dare to live the life you have dreamed for yourself. Go forward and make your dreams come true. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
Dumbledore
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden725 Posts
August 21 2015 18:19 GMT
#7
Immortals are broken for me after this patch. They're texture less balls :S
Have a nice day ;)
purakushi
Profile Joined August 2012
United States3300 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-21 18:30:30
August 21 2015 18:22 GMT
#8
Sigh, just remove photon overcharge and MSC and give shield battery, please. Very disappointing.
T P Z sagi
jpg06051992
Profile Joined July 2015
United States580 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-21 18:24:51
August 21 2015 18:22 GMT
#9
On August 22 2015 03:03 Lunareste wrote:
Please just delete the fucking Colossus already.


Yea pretty much my sentiments exactly, the Colossus is a no skill a move unit and the only people that want it back are Protoss players who miss A moving deathballs, because that's exactly what the Colossus is, an a move deathball unit that can't function outside of a deathball.

Remove the damn unit and buff Protoss accordingly.

I'm also very concerned about Overlord drops to make ZvZ less of a complete gimmick and change the starting number of workers down to 10 to allow some type of breathing room in the early game.

This update kind of feels like a step backwards to cater to baddies, the Colossus has zero place in the new Protoss army, it's too slow, too a move, too deathball.

Edit: Also, get Photon Overcharge out of here, replace with shield battery (or something else awesome that isn't PO pleeaase lol) Also WTF is with Immortals? Is it a bug or some shit? They look like little nubs in the ground rofl
"SO MANY BANELINGS!"
Pandemona *
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Charlie Sheens House51458 Posts
August 21 2015 18:27 GMT
#10
Didn't mention any of the macro feedback. Im pretty sure everyone has questioned the decision on that one? Oh well at least they are talking and reaching out which makes everyone feel like they are apart of the process which is nice.
ModeratorTeam Liquid Football Thread Guru! - Chelsea FC ♥
SiegeFlank
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States410 Posts
August 21 2015 18:27 GMT
#11
On August 22 2015 03:06 linuxguru1 wrote:
There are some good ideas in there, but please don't pursue auto-building units...


It says in the post that they tried it and determined it made the game too different.

I really like their explanations for everything. I'm still not entirely sold on the concept of photon overcharge in general, but their proposed change for it definitely makes the ability more interesting and skillful to use, and seems like it could promote more dynamic gameplay.
Bird up
imre
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
France9263 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-21 18:31:01
August 21 2015 18:29 GMT
#12



Thank you for discussions in this area this week. The main points that could contribute to the “gimmicky” feelings point toward offensive warp-ins, which should be addressed with this week’s patch. So overall, this is potentially a non-issue if testing goes smoothly with the new changes.

Our current change is for the ability costs less, to only be cast on Pylons



haha, so hilarious to read this.

And their explanation for the less worker per base makes no sense to me. You will still kill a tons of worker with harass if there isn't any defense in place and if you wipe out a mineral line the impact will still be important, even if it takes less longer to replenish it.

And reading their explanation for auto-building units makes me wonder what they consider as their "community" and the line about not looking like starcraft considering the auto inject is pretty funny too.

Notice how they didn't even tried to make it look like they actually playtest DH or other economic model actually pushed by the community.
Zest fanboy.
DeadByDawn
Profile Joined October 2012
United Kingdom476 Posts
August 21 2015 18:32 GMT
#13
Time to ditch Terran and pick up P or (especially) Z. Does Kimbo not realise that T cannot proactively tech switch to counter Zerg compositions because it takes a fucking long time to do build a new composition and they will likely have no upgrades. Siege tanks have received nothing but nerf after nerf since the WoL Beta.
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
August 21 2015 18:32 GMT
#14
Mothership Core Photon Overcharge
We’ve been exploring a change to how this ability works based on your suggestions. Our current change is for the ability costs less, to only be cast on Pylons, and to no longer have siege range. We’re seeing a lot more interaction with this ability use due to this change, because now there are lots of decisions to be made on both sides. For example:

How many Pylons need to be overcharged?
How many and what type of Pylon building placement is optimal in case Overcharge needs to be used?
Do you avoid their firing radius, kill the Pylon, or run away?

We haven’t been too focused on this change recently, but we will continue testing and hopefully make a call before the next balance update.


Yeah no thank you, the problem of the photon overcharge is that it requires no execution, this changes NOTHING.


Colossus
We heard your feedback that the Colossus nerf was too much, and regarding Colossi having a more general role like they do in Heart of the Swarm. We’ve been testing Colossus in combination with Disruptors and the results are cool so far. We started playtesting with their upgraded range back to 9, and the combination of the redesigned Disruptors supported by Colossi looks to be going well.


Nobody likes how the colossus works, buffing it again is ridiculous. Just remove it from the game OR redesign it completely.

Immortal
We agree with your feedback in that the new ability is quite difficult to use for a majority of players, and this ability might only impact the highest-level of players out there. Therefore, we’ve been trying out having the ability auto-cast by default. We’re noticing that this change is allowing Protoss to be able to focus on the more important parts of engagements, while Immortals continue to function at a high efficiency. At the same time, in order to use the ability for maximum efficiency, the highest-level players who have the extra micro to spare should turn this off. Thank you for this suggestion, and we will continue testing this change internally before making the call to have it go out to the beta.


The problem is that this "micro" ability is just boring. Activating an ability isn't exciting, stimming marines is boring, what you can do with stimmed marines is the exciting gameplay part. Same should be true for every activated ability.



The economy part makes me just sad, well overal very disappointed with the update
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
Lexender
Profile Joined September 2013
Mexico2623 Posts
August 21 2015 18:34 GMT
#15
Wasn't the whole point of reducing the warp in time when in range of a nexus/Gateway to allow protoss to defend early game agression?

Then why the fuck they still want to keep photon overcharge?
jinjin5000
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1399 Posts
August 21 2015 18:36 GMT
#16
Ravagers already delt with siege tanks well when they flanked or waited until roaches tanked damage. I don't know why they are trying to nerf siege tanks even more-its not that great at state right now and needs lots of support like liberator hellbat and cyclone to make it work and they are looking to reduce it even further
DeadByDawn
Profile Joined October 2012
United Kingdom476 Posts
August 21 2015 18:37 GMT
#17
Why do they even need PO anymore? Just insta-warp in units and defend. I attack you early with marines, warp one or two adepts in and kill them all. It is a no-skill action.
Magnifico
Profile Joined March 2013
1958 Posts
August 21 2015 18:38 GMT
#18
I don't even know what the word “gimmicky” means.
Everlong
Profile Joined April 2010
Czech Republic1973 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-21 18:40:21
August 21 2015 18:38 GMT
#19
RIP mech, lol - Zerg go their own tanks.. Haha!

It is impressive they are able to come up with so much of bullshit.

This is the such a free for all clusterfuck of random ideas I don't even.. :_D

Out of like 500 problems and things they need to work on they come up with 13 range ground Zerg unit to counter Tanks, I'm done here.
[UoN]Sentinel
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States11320 Posts
August 21 2015 18:39 GMT
#20
Gateway expanding will be pretty cool with the new MSC.

Also approve of the Colossus change. It should still have a purpose, even if it's weaker than before.
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