On August 26 2015 01:06 [PkF] Wire wrote: I really hope splitting warp-in power and building energy power gets tested at some point.
That's pretty much what's being tested at the moment; Warp in takes about 4-5x longer than in HOTS unless a warp gate, nexus or warp prism is in the power field.
No that's different, though the aim is the same (nerfing offensive warp-in). The version that's being tested atm is maybe fine but it's quite inelegant while the split solution is more simple and clear (only one "type of circle") and cannot create problems with the actually buffed defensive warp-ins that are bound to be used offensively at some point.
Anyway I'm pretty adamant the warp prism will take a huge nerf at some point, be it a robotics bay requirement, a 100 gas cost...
2 second to warp in is the main problem i think. The HOTS warp in time was about 3.8 seconds IIRC, so if it was 5-7 instead of 2 it would be much better
IDK why they buffed warp prism with the ability to pick up units from halfway across the screen, i would have taken more agility, health, bigger warp radius, faster warp times and such any day rather than that if it now has to be nerfed because of it
On August 26 2015 03:15 Cyro wrote: 2 second to warp in is the main problem i think. The HOTS warp in time was about 3.8 seconds IIRC, so if it was 5-7 instead of 2 it would be much better
IDK why they buffed warp prism with the ability to pick up units from halfway across the screen, i would have taken more agility, health, bigger warp radius, faster warp times and such any day rather than that if it now has to be nerfed because of it
it definitely is, especially with the buff to chargelots, if you don't kill the warp prism as it enters your base, there's a high chance you're gonna get rolled over.
and the ranged pickup is a 200 mineral blink. if you have decent micro, its blink for units that don't normally have it and you're giving stuff like adepts so much survivability. and if the other player is forced to move a large amount of units, it opens up other opportunities for them to snipe a base, etc
But I think that was kind of necessary, at least judging from my previous ZvPs where disruptors often didn't help the protoss army too much if you payed attention to them during the battle.
Well I think the old Disruptor was a misfit in attempting to fulfill the lacks of protoss in LOTV: What protoss needed was a consistent damage dealer, which they had in the Colossus. The Disruptor on the other hand had a 22 (LOTV)-second CD and its damage was 100% dependant on well the opponent would micr.
But I don't think its fair to claim that as a design flaw of the Disruptor. I think protoss simply needed fixes elsewhere in order to open op the role of the Disruptor to be a unit with a less guaranteed damage output. I am also not sure whether the new Disruptor even fulfills that role or whether people thinks its better now because protoss has a ton more units in the midgame relative to their opponents (than what previously was the case).
On August 26 2015 03:15 Cyro wrote: 2 second to warp in is the main problem i think. The HOTS warp in time was about 3.8 seconds IIRC, so if it was 5-7 instead of 2 it would be much better
IDK why they buffed warp prism with the ability to pick up units from halfway across the screen, i would have taken more agility, health, bigger warp radius, faster warp times and such any day rather than that if it now has to be nerfed because of it
it definitely is, especially with the buff to chargelots, if you don't kill the warp prism as it enters your base, there's a high chance you're gonna get rolled over.
and the ranged pickup is a 200 mineral blink. if you have decent micro, its blink for units that don't normally have it and you're giving stuff like adepts so much survivability. and if the other player is forced to move a large amount of units, it opens up other opportunities for them to snipe a base, etc
I actually won against a GM terran player on LOTV with my off race protoss. Got a warp prism and some adepts early on. Fucked up majorly because I suck and lost the warp prism + 3 adepts. But whatever, I just got another one and warped in some chargelots. He couldn't punish me becasue my army value was - throughout the entire game - above his. While presuring him (with amoves) basically he had to micro his ass of while I outexpanded and outteched him all at once.
Think I went like 5-0 in PvT that day while having no idea what I am doing besides building warp prism + lots of warpgate units.
Seriously TvP is a gigantic joke, and while balance issues are acceptable in a beta phase, there is little value in testing this patch atm when they could so easily have been identified and adressed in the internal testing.
But I think that was kind of necessary, at least judging from my previous ZvPs where disruptors often didn't help the protoss army too much if you payed attention to them during the battle.
Well I think the old Disruptor was a misfit in attempting to fulfill the lacks of protoss in LOTV: What protoss needed was a consistent damage dealer, which they had in the Colossus. The Disruptor on the other hand had a 22 (LOTV)-second CD and its damage was 100% dependant on well the opponent would micr.
But I don't think its fair to claim that as a design flaw of the Disruptor. I think protoss simply needed fixes elsewhere in order to open op the role of the Disruptor to be a unit with a less guaranteed damage output. I am also not sure whether the new Disruptor even fulfills that role or whether people thinks its better now because protoss has a ton more units in the midgame relative to their opponents (than what previously was the case).
I think every race needs somewhat solid combat splash units, otherwise I believe the game becomes very volatile and hard to balance given how different "unit power curves" naturally increment very differently, depending on their range, attack and dps values. And the "natural" prevention to have single-fire units incrementing too hard is a solid splash backbone that punishes concentrating too many of those. Whether that role should be pushed on the disruptor I don't know, but I think that's what blizzard's goal with that unit was all along. Having strong harassment capabilities is a great upside for the disruptor, but I personally don't believe in high gas-cost harassment if it doesn't also somewhat relate to army power/build-up.
I actually won against a GM terran player on LOTV with my off race protoss. Got a warp prism and some adepts early on
Very early defense is critical, i see dia-masters terrans (not played GM) doing ridiculous stuff like cc first or 1rax cc on the low ground with 1 bunker in front not walling off that obviously can't hold adepts, and then they die. The warp prism warp-in time combined with pickup range is a problem i think (and pickup range isn't fun! 2-3 range would be cool, 6 is silly) and adept cost is probably gonna be changed to 50 gas
I think with no warp prism pickup range, a 4-5 second warp instead of 2 seconds and adept cost change there is no problem. Terrans will figure out what they can and can't do (and it won't be as hard to hold)
@above, i think it would be more fun to be not so reliant on the t3. Disruptor itself, if kept as-is, doesn't feel very fun to me particularly because of the HUGE attack cooldown (it's like 30-32 seconds in HOTS time) and the shots feeling a bit awkward to control.
Could get used to it but so far, it's the most awkward feeling spellcaster in the game IMO. I guess a big part of that is lacking any kind of cooldown display - i often try to select one + fire and the cooldown is only 80% done, or straight out the wrong disruptor from halfway across the map fires instead because i didn't select only the disruptor that i wanted to shoot, so the wrong one eats the command to fire its long cooldown shot at nothing and sit immobile in the middle of the map. It's not that mechanically hard compared to controlling stuff in BW, but it's a very strange added complexity in starcraft when almost everything else works much more smoothly.
Having to guess at a cooldown that long because there's no display for it doesn't feel good. It's also un-reaver-like because there's a lot of engagements that go like this when you have a few of them:
1; bait the disruptor shots 2; dodge/kite them without taking significant damage 3; kill half of his army before the disruptors can fire a second time
that just feels awkward and inconsistent as a unit that's so expensive. Reavers fired like 5x as often and could be picked up after firing, which are 2 traits that i would happily give up the unique stuff on the disruptor in order to have again.
I think with no warp prism pickup range, a 4-5 second warp instead of 2 seconds and adept cost change there is no problem. Terrans will figure out what they can and can't do (and it won't be as hard to hold)
As I said I even lost the first warp prism + adepts but still had more stuff than him since terran lacks mineral income. And it wans't even like the game was close at any point in time.
We are talking about such a ridicilous level of imbalance so that even though the skilcap of pickup micro is high, you don't even need to abuse it. You can just outproduce the terran, take more bases and outtech him at the same time.
So I don't think small changes are anywhere near enough. Warp-in time should be really high as default. At least 8 seconds because otherwise it will always be too strong as an all-in. Then protoss players should be able to research an upgrade at robo bay that reduces it. On top of that terran needs to be able to get more stuff out, which should be possible through a better mineral/gas cost ratio.
As I said I even lost the first warp prism + adepts but still had more stuff than him since terran lacks mineral income
Protoss income got hit with a huge stick too. Standard openings put the first 3 chrono's on probes since the beginning of time, sometimes more
If you're going from one game alone, can you post the replay?
Going out from one replay? No I lost a couple of times as TvP to warp prism. Then I saw one of the guys I lost to just doing the exact same on Nathanias stream and Nathanias had no chance.
Afterwards I thought to myself "this seems like a freewin, I bet I can do it". And previously when I tried to offrace with socalled "imbalanced strats", they would never go nearly as well as I expected them.
But this time I went 7-0 in PvT's. Every single game I outproduced the terran, and was able to expand and tech faster. this shit just outproducing terrans every single game. Right now my LOTV protoss is actually more succesful than my LOTV terran which is a strong indications of a big balance problem.
I actually lost my 8th PvT, but it was pretty close despite him having lost 18k worth of units to my 10K.
So that's roughly how cost efficient you need to be as terarn in the early/midgame to win against a toss with a warp prism and mass warpgates.
I suggest you jsut try it your self. It's absolutely insane how easy it is. Terran losses way more in terms of mineral income than protoss does. A couple of chrono on nexus = 2 more probes. Terran losses mule income from 3 OC's which is like 15 workers. Surely you would also take advantage which makes it less than 15 workers, however, you would on 2 bases mule constantly which would you give a high mineral income very quickly and then you could take a quick 3rd, and you would be able to mule on 3 OC's 1-2 rounds which allowed you to set up production and get access to map control.
However, everything gets superdelayed here which actually makes the real income difference even more problematic because you really can never actually afford a 3rd while keeping up a decent amount of unit production as terran.
Previously terran would outproduce toss in the midgame but toss would scale better. Now its vice versa with the exception that terran has no defensive abilites to survive since siege tanks gets countered by chargelots/blink stalkers.
The differecen between TvP and TvZ is that terran through siege tank drops and liberators can get into the later stages of the game where mass Cyclones are still very strong, whereas that's not realistic in TvP.
Balance aside, LOTV - more than ever- suffers from the neverending midgame state. In order for a proper lategame dynamic to be established, you need large army sizes spread out all over the map. The income rate in LOTV is way too low and instead most games ends up being scrappy and snowbally.
On August 26 2015 22:59 Hider wrote: Balance aside, LOTV - more than ever- suffers from the neverending midgame state. In order for a proper lategame dynamic to be established, you need large army sizes spread out all over the map. The income rate in LOTV is way too low and instead most games ends up being scrappy and snowbally.
They won't change how the economy works at this point though, sadly
I suggest you jsut try it your self. It's absolutely insane how easy it is.
I'm like rank 7 GM on LOTV archon but losing to terran occasionally. Actually finding terran harder than zerg to play against and almost nobody is playing protoss. Match history is broken so i can't check, but i don't remember hitting a single protoss in the last 15 or so games even though the majority of people are playing Random (it's all Random with some terrans and occasional zerg.. the randoms didn't seem to land on protoss much)
I think now's the time to announce a players race at the start of the game if they queue as Random. It sucks more than ever to not know what race you're playing against until after your nexus/2gate timing, it's disgusting.
Also kinda curious the best way to hold a PvRandom cannon rush because we royally fucked it up the first time and died horribly. That guy just built a pylon and send a probe across map immediately, build a forge and send that probe across map too immediately - so he had 10 probes at home, 2 probes attacking
As I said I even lost the first warp prism + adepts but still had more stuff than him since terran lacks mineral income
Protoss income got hit with a huge stick too. Standard openings put the first 3 chrono's on probes since the beginning of time, sometimes more
If you're going from one game alone, can you post the replay?
Going out from one replay? No I lost a couple of times as TvP to warp prism. Then I saw one of the guys I lost to just doing the exact same on Nathanias stream and Nathanias had no chance.
Afterwards I thought to myself "this seems like a freewin, I bet I can do it". And previously when I tried to offrace with socalled "imbalanced strats", they would never go nearly as well as I expected them.
But this time I went 7-0 in PvT's. Every single game I outproduced the terran, and was able to expand and tech faster. this shit just outproducing terrans every single game. Right now my LOTV protoss is actually more succesful than my LOTV terran which is a strong indications of a big balance problem.
I actually lost my 8th PvT, but it was pretty close despite him having lost 18k worth of units to my 10K.
So that's roughly how cost efficient you need to be as terarn in the early/midgame to win against a toss with a warp prism and mass warpgates.
I suggest you jsut try it your self. It's absolutely insane how easy it is. Terran losses way more in terms of mineral income than protoss does. A couple of chrono on nexus = 2 more probes. Terran losses mule income from 3 OC's which is like 15 workers. Surely you would also take advantage which makes it less than 15 workers, however, you would on 2 bases mule constantly which would you give a high mineral income very quickly and then you could take a quick 3rd, and you would be able to mule on 3 OC's 1-2 rounds which allowed you to set up production and get access to map control.
However, everything gets superdelayed here which actually makes the real income difference even more problematic because you really can never actually afford a 3rd while keeping up a decent amount of unit production as terran.
Previously terran would outproduce toss in the midgame but toss would scale better. Now its vice versa with the exception that terran has no defensive abilites to survive since siege tanks gets countered by chargelots/blink stalkers.
The differecen between TvP and TvZ is that terran through siege tank drops and liberators can get into the later stages of the game where mass Cyclones are still very strong, whereas that's not realistic in TvP.
That sounds good man I'd like to do some ladder climbing, you have any reps?
LOTV is pretty dead - there's nobody queing archon worth more than +1 point for us and we're not that good. It's hard to make good balance observations from that, i can just say the warp prism pickup range of 6 (rather than 0-2) is rather silly and release interceptor probably needs looking at
God, I'm waiting so hard for the next update/balance patch right now.
The game is between awesome and unplayable broken at the moment and I actually would like to see some tweaks for the next update instead of huge design changes. Make it more playable and balanced and feel more fair (in particular for Terran).
Oh, and ZvZ is really good since the patch, can't stress enough how fucking amazing the inject nerf has been for this matchup. Personally, the only tweak I would like to see at the moment to this matchup is a small nerf to mutalisks.
I'm like rank 7 GM on LOTV archon but losing to terran occasionally. Actually finding terran harder than zerg to play against and almost nobody is playing protoss
Well I meant you can try playing protoss yourself.
I think that if you play against a toss (as terran) that attempts to tech very hard and play defensively, you can probably do okay'ish as terrran. But protoss can just mass warpgate units in the midgame with constant warp prism drops, and then it doesn't really become close. Terrans only hope is that they in some way survive untill they reach a critical mass of Cyclones/Hellions.
The game is between awesome and unplayable broken at the moment and I actually would like to see some tweaks for the next update instead of huge design changes.
Yeh that's kinda how I feel too. After playing some more I come to like some more of the new LOTV stuff, and I think that it in some ways - is a huge upgrade over HOTS.
The need to no longer inject felt awesome as zerg. It was so much more fun to just focus on controlling the army. And protoss also feels better with Adept and more even army strenght in the midgame + warp prism micro (despite the imbalance) is still fun. Liberators - took a bit of time to get used to - but definitely adds a new positional element and the "micro" is unique too. (though it does overlap with some units).
PvZ also felt decent as toss because I was often times dodging Ravager skillshots and just massing units instead of forcefield spamming as in HOTS.
But overall the balance is just too bad atm, and I am interested in seeing whether I still can have fun with toss if TvP becomes more balanced so you can no longer outproduce the terran.
LOTV is pretty dead - there's nobody queing archon worth more than +1 point for us and we're not that good. It's hard to make good balance observations from that, i can just say the warp prism pickup range of 6 (rather than 0-2) is rather silly and release interceptor probably needs looking at
looks like my buddy and i dropped rank lol. we're in grandmaster archon but the ppl we face are generally platinum and diamond with the occasional gm 1v1 thrown in there too.
i thought that this was an interesting video from incontrol
i like how he discusses how you have to change your current way of thinking about the game in order to test out the changes, much like some streamers are unable to do and proceed to bitch and moan and play another game instead of trying to learn and adapt :coughavilocough:
Well I meant you can try playing protoss yourself.
We're playing protoss.
I don't feel it would be fair for cyclone AA attack damage to be doubled - their speed and range is very extreme. This is one unit that would just feel completely terrible to become the new Winfestor for a year beating all compositions and being core to terran army - it should not be strong in every way. It's still a deterrant to air, even a single one - building a cyclone instead of a siege tank will put you in a significantly better position against an oracle or prism.
weaker inject is cool but i think hatchery larvae rate and cap should be adjusted a bit, maybe inject energy cost lowered to 15. Autocast inject wouldn't be neccesary; it would be a boost but make up more like 20% of your larvae rather than the ~55-60% that it was in HOTS.
looks like my buddy and i dropped rank lol. we're in grandmaster archon but the ppl we face are generally platinum and diamond with the occasional gm 1v1 thrown in there too.
There are no Masters in LOTV archon - we went plat to GM in one game and have never hit a master (only plat, maybe diamonds and a lot of gm's)
i have a raid starting so can't watch 31 min vid atm, will give it a look later
Well I meant you can try playing protoss yourself.
We're playing protoss.
I don't feel it would be fair for cyclone AA attack damage to be doubled - their speed and range is very extreme. This is one unit that would just feel completely terrible to become the new Winfestor for a year beating all compositions and being core to terran army - it should not be strong in every way. It's still a deterrant to air, even a single one - building a cyclone instead of a siege tank will put you in a significantly better position against an oracle or prism.
weaker inject is cool but i think hatchery larvae rate and cap should be adjusted a bit, maybe inject energy cost lowered to 15. Autocast inject wouldn't be neccesary; it would be a boost but make up more like 20% of your larvae rather than the ~55-60% that it was in HOTS.
looks like my buddy and i dropped rank lol. we're in grandmaster archon but the ppl we face are generally platinum and diamond with the occasional gm 1v1 thrown in there too.
There are no Masters in LOTV archon - we went plat to GM in one game and have never hit a master (only plat, maybe diamonds and a lot of gm's)
i have a raid starting so can't watch 31 min vid atm, will give it a look later
we were originally placed in platinum, then after the ladder reset, dropped to silver, THEN moved up to GM lmao. no where near deserving of that, with me playing an offrace so my buddy stands a chance (he has horrible decision making but i love him anyway).
gonna agree about the cyclone dmg. it could probably stand to be increased, but i dont think that the oracle should lose HP for coming into range, seeing the cyclone, then getting out. in its current state, it takes off some shield, but in order to do life point dmg, you have to have marines around. i think that's fair. if you wanna blow up an oracle, you need a widow mine and have to use it's cd BUT you can dodge it if you're watching the oracle. the matchup between oracle vs terran units feels pretty good.
to the people that think it should be significantly buffed, you shouldn't be able to mass a single unit and previously, you could just mass cyclones and win. it was stupid. you can't mass other units in the same way, so why should cyclones be the exception? that's what happened when the AA attack was super strong.
personally i think that you need to have inject in the game in order to balance out creep spread and air-play. even if you made it more expensive or creep tumors took longer to come off cd, if you didn't have inject, queens would have little reason to sit next to a hatchery and things like banshee or oracle harass would be greatly weakened bc you can just keep the queens grouped and follow units around as they attempt to find a hole in your base. that said, weaker inject harms my gameplay more than missing the old inject by 10s, especially vs terran because of the lack of larva to produce lings, and thus banelings. with the liberator/hellbat pushes that are common (and by common i mean, 95% of what i face), it isn't a gigantic deal because i'm spending more on roaches which are more supply efficient..but shit, its gonna suck when terran realize that they can't produce as many marines, but we can't produce as many lings either. any 2 base bio tank pressure i've faced has been INCREDIBLY difficult to hold.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5RVFjGy.png)
(only plat, maybe diamonds and a lot of gm's)
