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United Kingdom20326 Posts
We've been practicing with 2gate - nexus - robo timing without additional gates for a while, i'm not sure what units is best to have against it
siege tank isn't that useful against buffed warp prism - they'll often drop in your mineral line or on the tank
widow mines don't oneshot adepts and can't move around a ton without risking being destroyed, so they're not very easy to use.
Just having a ton of units in general should help a lot. Adepts can't kill cyclones and a cyclone or viking will contribute a lot to denying or forcing the prism out
siege tank / 4 mines + medivac doesn't seem to do good on defense because people tend to have like 2 marines when rushing that stuff out while expanding
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SoCal8910 Posts
i've been trying out 2-3 cyclones with marines and its a decent catch all if they choose to open up with oracle, or if they choose to open up with warp prism. you do need to pull a couple scvs to assist with the attack, but i haven't been able to work out a timing i like while also getting an expansion
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
Just beat Livibee & flo with that opening  will see if she has a stream VOD because livi was streaming
cyclone, even one can push a warp prism away and they're hard for adepts to kill on the ground
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On August 29 2015 02:34 Cyro wrote:Just beat Livibee & flo with that opening will see if she has a stream VOD because livi was streaming cyclone, even one can push a warp prism away and they're hard for adepts to kill on the ground
jajaja
Awesome!
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SoCal8910 Posts
On August 29 2015 02:34 Cyro wrote:Just beat Livibee & flo with that opening will see if she has a stream VOD because livi was streaming cyclone, even one can push a warp prism away and they're hard for adepts to kill on the ground
i haven't played with rushing the upgrade vs this kind of play. any idea how it fares?
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
The cyclone upgrade? Not sure since nobody ever used it, but you probably don't need it. You just need to be able to stand and fight without a bunker if possible and have some anti-air pressure at that time. If you pull scv's and he can be allowed to sit within 6 range with a prism, the units won't die - compared to zerg which often puts queens on them, that creates a lot of pressure to leave, causes some micro problems (you can't lift up an adept that has a shade out, you have to cancel the shade first) and makes me slip and lose prisms occasionally, while terran doesn't seem to apply that pressure as often
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Current TvP ... at least for my dumpster tier level ... seems really, really bad. It seems to be just mass Adapts. Like an endless stream of Adepts from a warp prism.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
I don't know to be honest because i've never played midgame vs bio, only vs people with at least some mech (and cyclones and liberators both seem like solid units if you can build a core of them)
Upgraded adepts and chargelots seem very powerful - but i think fun powerful, i'd rather they take power away from other units than have only crap chargelots and stalkers that can't kill stuff past the early and early midgame without support from superunits like colossi. 2 sec warp is very good, probably too good for offense
the 2 sec warp (instead of ~3.8 sec previously) is occasionally difference between losing 2 probes and losing 4 probes to a surprise oracle. On offense, it's the difference between being able to phase and drop 2 units without worrying about the units or the prism taking significant damage
hit protoss a second time, lost to a 1base phoenix +adept all in while expanding ~ most of the other losses were to zerg
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SoCal8910 Posts
On August 29 2015 02:47 Cyro wrote:
The cyclone upgrade? Not sure since nobody ever used it, but you probably don't need it. You just need to be able to stand and fight without a bunker if possible and have some anti-air pressure at that time. If you pull scv's and he can be allowed to sit within 6 range with a prism, the units won't die - compared to zerg which often puts queens on them, that creates a lot of pressure to leave, causes some micro problems (you can't lift up an adept that has a shade out, you have to cancel the shade first) and makes me slip and lose prisms occasionally, while terran doesn't seem to apply that pressure as often
i'd imagine that its because lock on is auto cast by default. 3 cyclones will do 72 dmg to a prism if they immediately cast lock on as soon as it phases and immediately unphases, 108 if it unphases as soon as warp-ins finish.
this would be nice if marines were able to keep up with the prism. realistically, the prism can dodge marines and only take mostly shield dmg, again assuming a perfect scenario for the terran where they lock all 3 cyclones on the moment it enters the base and begins to phase.
e: just did the math on the cyclone upgrade and it appears that only 2 cyclones can kill off a prism if they catch it the moment it phases. 3 can kill it if they don't warp anything in and phase in and out
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
i'd imagine that its because lock on is auto cast by default. 3 cyclones will do 72 dmg to a prism if they immediately cast lock on as soon as it phases and immediately unphases, 108 if it unphases as soon as warp-ins finish.
What about the part where the cyclone chases the prism across the entire base until the edge of the cliff + 10 range? I seem to lose all shields whenever even a single cyclone grabs me and i'm not at a cliff. I've never seen three at once in a warp prism harass stage, yet they do way more to deter me than widow mines and liberators.
Also my prism is very rarely phased, only to warp in units - and i often don't warp in unless there's potential to immediately do damage with it as the prism is already full and doing a bunch of damage without losing anything is better than doing a ton of damage but losing a ton of units too. If a terran pulls scv's and runs at me with like 8 marines i'l phase and warp 2 more adepts on the spot to take the engagement without losing any units for as long as possible
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SoCal8910 Posts
On August 29 2015 03:02 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +i'd imagine that its because lock on is auto cast by default. 3 cyclones will do 72 dmg to a prism if they immediately cast lock on as soon as it phases and immediately unphases, 108 if it unphases as soon as warp-ins finish. What about the part where the cyclone chases the prism across the entire base until the edge of the cliff + 10 range? I seem to lose all shields whenever even a single cyclone grabs me and i'm not at a cliff. I've never seen three at once in a warp prism harass stage, yet they do way more to deter me than widow mines and liberators. Also my prism is very rarely phased, only to warp in units - and i often don't warp in unless there's potential to immediately do damage with it as the prism is already full and doing a bunch of damage without losing anything is better than doing a ton of damage but losing a ton of units too. If a terran pulls scv's and runs at me with like 8 marines i'l phase and warp 2 more adepts on the spot to take the engagement without losing any units for as long as possible
that's just the math assuming the warp prism is going to warp stuff in and without micro
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
The cyclone has almost as high movespeed as the prism and the range is huge so once you're locked on it's just like "aah i have to run away for 10 seconds then wait a huge amount of time for shields to come back" and the adept warp prism damage is heavily based on a window of a few minutes of time, waiting will reduce the potential so much
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Great to hear the last few pages actually discussing strategy instead of balance whining. Fun to read, keep testing guys!
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SoCal8910 Posts
On August 29 2015 03:13 Cyro wrote:
The cyclone has almost as high movespeed as the prism and the range is huge so once you're locked on it's just like "aah i have to run away for 10 seconds then wait a huge amount of time for shields to come back" and the adept warp prism damage is heavily based on a window of a few minutes of time, waiting will reduce the potential so much
i think the cyclone has more speed doesn't it?
if it is just adept warp prism harass, im sure one cyclone just locked on will be enough
the math i was doing was more for adept + warp prism attacks, which is another thing i'm seeing frequently vs terran players
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
creep spread is insane, can't take a fourth base because 80% of the map is creep
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SoCal8910 Posts
On August 29 2015 04:06 Cyro wrote:
creep spread is insane, can't take a fourth base because 80% of the map is creep
yeah creep spread in archon mode is a little wild right now. one person dedicated to spreading it is enough to completely bone you
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On August 29 2015 04:06 Cyro wrote:
creep spread is insane, can't take a fourth base because 80% of the map is creep
Archon Mode is a different game, for sure, and I LOVE IT, but it certainly highlights issues that aren't really an issue in traditional 1v1. I.e., creep. DAT CREEP.
But at least Terran has more scans ... oh, wait. We don't. Because we don't build orbitals anymore ; )
Your cyclone versus Protoss is interesting, and I think it might be working strictly because of the meta. But a rush to any type of tech for defense feels so scary, especially if Toss chooses to play econ.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
but it certainly highlights issues that aren't really an issue in traditional 1v1. I.e., creep. DAT CREEP.
High level zergs will spread creep - you need the larvae for ling styles but these guys just went like 5 hatches with 6 queens and stopped injecting for a minute or two, that was all it took
Your cyclone versus Protoss is interesting, and I think it might be working strictly because of the meta. But a rush to any type of tech for defense feels so scary, especially if Toss chooses to play econ.
It's not really a case of what to do as much as.. what not to do. If you 1rax expand without a wall against a protoss who goes gate-gate-robo-nexus, you'll die. If you go gas first to double liberator production in the very early game, you'll die. If you don't scout at all, rush a medivac, put most of your army into it and fly across the map while expanding, you'll die.
It's a great filter removing most of the stupid openings from the game around the 4-5 minute mark. The majority of terrans we faced seemed to not know what an adept was
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
puck+bails vs reality+journey game 2 @redbull shows a decent style for terran to play early (i didn't see it, just part of the replay)
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
On August 29 2015 02:37 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2015 02:34 Cyro wrote:Just beat Livibee & flo with that opening will see if she has a stream VOD because livi was streaming cyclone, even one can push a warp prism away and they're hard for adepts to kill on the ground jajaja Awesome!
http://www.twitch.tv/livibee/v/13242296
1:19
some questionable control from me (Aeryn) ~ the "i think we can come back" comments were a little funny with perspective from both sides of the game because they took a lot of damage on and off camera and were pretty dead then
adept flank is cool, i love it (1:28:35 - 1:29:00ish on VOD time) and you can trap them better and stop retreat with adept shade
oops triple post damn. This thread is gonna die since everyone went to the other one (new changes announced) :D
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EPT
