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SoCal8910 Posts
On August 24 2015 01:00 Big J wrote:
played a few games with terran; haha lol, terran is completely fucked on this patch. I thought with supply drops still in the game terran would have it best but man was I wrong, lol...
Also cyclones suck balls now, lol. So basically, on the last patch they behaved like a long range/hightech crappy designed unit will behave: it becomes insanely good when massed and it's a bit inefficient before that.
Now it's just bad, start to end. And the antiair damage without the upgrade is a joke. 150/150/3 for the dps of a mothershipcore? Yeah right, that's going to be useful. Totally gonna open cyclones to prevent oracles, prisms, banshees and liberators wrecking me. (not)
Good lord, who came up with this design... Can we please just remove it and go forward with starcraft. I'm starting to consider joining the stupid "give goliath" chants - which is like the most boring and unnecessary unit you could add to terran - just because it's probably the only chance we get to remove this piece of crap.
If you're getting it without marines, you're doing it wrong. You shouldn't be deterred from opening with air bc of a single unit killing one of yours before you even get to do dmg.
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On August 23 2015 20:38 mishimaBeef wrote:
I've said this before and I'll say it again.
1) Take every single tournament game ever played in front of a live audience.
2) Analyze the times where "OHHH!" and "AHHH!" came from the crowd.
3) Design towards that.
I believe Blizzard has been doing a good job and continues to do a good job in Legacy.
If I may make an analogy; you're advocating the Slamball approach.
Let's take a game that has downtime where players need to spend time positioning/passing the ball (injecting/macroing) and eliminate that so all we have is action and micro:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xk3wbKT.jpg)
Somehow this new game is better than the old? I don't see it.
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Lol wut? Arbitrary analogy. If anything I would say that game "slamball" has less action. The players have to spend a long time powering up on a "jump pad". Real basketball has way more action.
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4137 Posts
On August 24 2015 00:57 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2015 00:48 Dingodile wrote:On August 24 2015 00:27 nubHunter wrote:On August 23 2015 23:02 bo1b wrote:On August 23 2015 20:14 nubHunter wrote:
the game is better without macro mechanics, the time/apm wasted using chrono, inject larva and mules during battle will be used for a more spectacular micro, thats what makes the game funny to play and watch, not the fucking macro mechanincs. Please just play dota instead. i have 200+ apm, i can macro in sc2 very decent, but i prefer use that apm and camera time on my army, thanks. 200+ is way too much for macro. I play zerg with 40apm and I barely missing any inject until Lategame. Funny things is when I have a fight, it goes over 250apm only for that 5sec fight. 40 apm when there's no action going on? There's actually no way you're doing every thing you need to do then suddenly spike to 200 apm during a 5 second engagement lol
yes if no action except brainless injects/macro. With my wc3 background, i do microing my units a lot.
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mishimaBeef wrote:
I've said this before and I'll say it again.
1) Take every single tournament game ever played in front of a live audience.
2) Analyze the times where "OHHH!" and "AHHH!" came from the crowd.
3) Design towards that.
But arent these "OHHH's" and "AHHH's" happening because we see something that doesnt occur every 30 seconds? Games, sometimes a whole series builds up towards these moments.
You may be right I cant tell, but I could also see constant crowds/casters going crazy become boring very fast. Its just not special anymore at some point.
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On August 24 2015 01:12 loko822 wrote:Show nested quote +mishimaBeef wrote:
I've said this before and I'll say it again.
1) Take every single tournament game ever played in front of a live audience.
2) Analyze the times where "OHHH!" and "AHHH!" came from the crowd.
3) Design towards that.
But arent these "OHHH's" and "AHHH's" happening because we see something that doesnt occur every 30 seconds? Games, sometimes a whole series builds up towards these moments. You may be right I cant tell, but I could also see constant crowds/casters going crazy become boring very fast. Its just not special anymore at some point.
It's al relative, even if there is constant action (which is good) there are moments which are special for its environment.
CSGO is a good example.
Lot's of constant action because of its design, but clutches are still a highlight.
http://oddshot.tv/shot/esl-csgo-20150823123242210
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Well its the nature of the game(CSGO) that players kill each other. Still for my taste I dont take the entertainment out of that or call that constant action that makes me watch it. Just because its kills doesnt mean its great to watch. The entertainment for me comes of tense situations, close matches, huge turnarounds and the basic build up of the matchup that finishes in an exciting way.
I mean its just not fair comparing both games and saying one is way more action packed and therfor better, when for me as a casual viewer ~85% of the kills are like seeing a scouting scv die...
And no I dont wanna talk anything bad. I think its good that most parts are average. Just has to be the right mix.
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On August 24 2015 00:27 nubHunter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2015 23:02 bo1b wrote:On August 23 2015 20:14 nubHunter wrote:
the game is better without macro mechanics, the time/apm wasted using chrono, inject larva and mules during battle will be used for a more spectacular micro, thats what makes the game funny to play and watch, not the fucking macro mechanincs. Please just play dota instead. i have 200+ apm, i can macro in sc2 very decent, but i prefer use that apm and camera time on my army, thanks.
Great, glad you enjoy it, and I can personally vouch that your experience in this matter trumps everyone else (I recognise the irony).
On August 24 2015 01:12 Dingodile wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2015 00:57 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 24 2015 00:48 Dingodile wrote:On August 24 2015 00:27 nubHunter wrote:On August 23 2015 23:02 bo1b wrote:On August 23 2015 20:14 nubHunter wrote:
the game is better without macro mechanics, the time/apm wasted using chrono, inject larva and mules during battle will be used for a more spectacular micro, thats what makes the game funny to play and watch, not the fucking macro mechanincs. Please just play dota instead. i have 200+ apm, i can macro in sc2 very decent, but i prefer use that apm and camera time on my army, thanks. 200+ is way too much for macro. I play zerg with 40apm and I barely missing any inject until Lategame. Funny things is when I have a fight, it goes over 250apm only for that 5sec fight. 40 apm when there's no action going on? There's actually no way you're doing every thing you need to do then suddenly spike to 200 apm during a 5 second engagement lol yes if no action except brainless injects/macro. With my wc3 background, i do microing my units a lot.
Assuming by macro you only mean injecting with a queen, you can inject every 20 seconds (25 seconds blizz time, but we'll go with real time for now). So with that said, assuming you hotkey your base/camera key your base/click on your map, theres one action, a hotkey for your queen/click it, theres another, click/hotkey the inject button, click on the hatch, for a total of 4 apm per 20 seconds, that leaves you with ~ 12 apm per hatch you have. So unless your macro consists of 3 hatches, no unit production, no creep spread, no tech research, no extra hatcheries built, no upgrades etc then it's not possible to have even midgame macro ( 4-7 minutes for 3 hatches on average excluding zvz which is wonky) with 40 apm.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On August 24 2015 01:53 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2015 00:27 nubHunter wrote:On August 23 2015 23:02 bo1b wrote:On August 23 2015 20:14 nubHunter wrote:
the game is better without macro mechanics, the time/apm wasted using chrono, inject larva and mules during battle will be used for a more spectacular micro, thats what makes the game funny to play and watch, not the fucking macro mechanincs. Please just play dota instead. i have 200+ apm, i can macro in sc2 very decent, but i prefer use that apm and camera time on my army, thanks. Great, glad you enjoy it, and I can personally vouch that your experience in this matter trumps everyone else (I recognise the irony). Show nested quote +On August 24 2015 01:12 Dingodile wrote:On August 24 2015 00:57 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 24 2015 00:48 Dingodile wrote:On August 24 2015 00:27 nubHunter wrote:On August 23 2015 23:02 bo1b wrote:On August 23 2015 20:14 nubHunter wrote:
the game is better without macro mechanics, the time/apm wasted using chrono, inject larva and mules during battle will be used for a more spectacular micro, thats what makes the game funny to play and watch, not the fucking macro mechanincs. Please just play dota instead. i have 200+ apm, i can macro in sc2 very decent, but i prefer use that apm and camera time on my army, thanks. 200+ is way too much for macro. I play zerg with 40apm and I barely missing any inject until Lategame. Funny things is when I have a fight, it goes over 250apm only for that 5sec fight. 40 apm when there's no action going on? There's actually no way you're doing every thing you need to do then suddenly spike to 200 apm during a 5 second engagement lol yes if no action except brainless injects/macro. With my wc3 background, i do microing my units a lot. Assuming by macro you only mean injecting with a queen, you can inject every 20 seconds (25 seconds blizz time, but we'll go with real time for now). So with that said, assuming you hotkey your base/camera key your base/click on your map, theres one action, a hotkey for your queen/click it, theres another, click/hotkey the inject button, click on the hatch, for a total of 4 apm per 20 seconds, that leaves you with ~ 12 apm per hatch you have. So unless your macro consists of 3 hatches, no unit production, no creep spread, no tech research, no extra hatcheries built, no upgrades etc then it's not possible to have even midgame macro ( 4-7 minutes for 3 hatches on average excluding zvz which is wonky) with 40 apm.
Yeah I think 40 apm is way too low for Zerg macro lol. I'm pretty sure that's like 1 hands worth for me 
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On August 24 2015 01:02 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2015 01:00 Big J wrote:
played a few games with terran; haha lol, terran is completely fucked on this patch. I thought with supply drops still in the game terran would have it best but man was I wrong, lol...
Also cyclones suck balls now, lol. So basically, on the last patch they behaved like a long range/hightech crappy designed unit will behave: it becomes insanely good when massed and it's a bit inefficient before that.
Now it's just bad, start to end. And the antiair damage without the upgrade is a joke. 150/150/3 for the dps of a mothershipcore? Yeah right, that's going to be useful. Totally gonna open cyclones to prevent oracles, prisms, banshees and liberators wrecking me. (not)
Good lord, who came up with this design... Can we please just remove it and go forward with starcraft. I'm starting to consider joining the stupid "give goliath" chants - which is like the most boring and unnecessary unit you could add to terran - just because it's probably the only chance we get to remove this piece of crap. If you're getting it without marines, you're doing it wrong. You shouldn't be deterred from opening with air bc of a single unit killing one of yours before you even get to do dmg.
Opening with 6marines does exactly that. I understand how to defend that stuff (though no clue how you are supposed to defend 4gate prism adept...), I don't understand what the cyclone is supposed to do.
As a comparison, think about what happens when you have only a single queen to defend your mineralline against an oracle and the oracle just targets drones. Your fucked. Well, the cyclone does a good deal less damage than that queen. And costs a good deal more. And requires you to get double gas before expansion.
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On August 24 2015 01:38 loko822 wrote:
Well its the nature of the game(CSGO) that players kill each other. Still for my taste I dont take the entertainment out of that or call that constant action that makes me watch it. Just because its kills doesnt mean its great to watch. The entertainment for me comes of tense situations, close matches, huge turnarounds and the basic build up of the matchup that finishes in an exciting way.
I mean its just not fair comparing both games and saying one is way more action packed and therfor better, when for me as a casual viewer ~85% of the kills are like seeing a scouting scv die...
And no I dont wanna talk anything bad. I think its good that most parts are average. Just has to be the right mix.
Yes it is the nature of the game cause it is designed that way.
The game is just better at creating tense situations, which is a plus.
Counterstrike is simply the best designed esports game there is right now, both for the players and for the viewers.
If you wanna make a new game, you can learn a lot from it if you ask me.
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BTW, what if my intention is that, when the queen pops the first energy is spent on a creep tumor instead of an inject?
I just had a situation like this vs a bunker rush and the queen immediately autoinjected; a creep tumor would ve allowed me to save the situation due to better placement of the two spines. So the autoinject proper fucked this game i just had.
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4137 Posts
On August 24 2015 02:02 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2015 01:53 bo1b wrote:On August 24 2015 00:27 nubHunter wrote:On August 23 2015 23:02 bo1b wrote:On August 23 2015 20:14 nubHunter wrote:
the game is better without macro mechanics, the time/apm wasted using chrono, inject larva and mules during battle will be used for a more spectacular micro, thats what makes the game funny to play and watch, not the fucking macro mechanincs. Please just play dota instead. i have 200+ apm, i can macro in sc2 very decent, but i prefer use that apm and camera time on my army, thanks. Great, glad you enjoy it, and I can personally vouch that your experience in this matter trumps everyone else (I recognise the irony). On August 24 2015 01:12 Dingodile wrote:On August 24 2015 00:57 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 24 2015 00:48 Dingodile wrote:On August 24 2015 00:27 nubHunter wrote:On August 23 2015 23:02 bo1b wrote:On August 23 2015 20:14 nubHunter wrote:
the game is better without macro mechanics, the time/apm wasted using chrono, inject larva and mules during battle will be used for a more spectacular micro, thats what makes the game funny to play and watch, not the fucking macro mechanincs. Please just play dota instead. i have 200+ apm, i can macro in sc2 very decent, but i prefer use that apm and camera time on my army, thanks. 200+ is way too much for macro. I play zerg with 40apm and I barely missing any inject until Lategame. Funny things is when I have a fight, it goes over 250apm only for that 5sec fight. 40 apm when there's no action going on? There's actually no way you're doing every thing you need to do then suddenly spike to 200 apm during a 5 second engagement lol yes if no action except brainless injects/macro. With my wc3 background, i do microing my units a lot. Assuming by macro you only mean injecting with a queen, you can inject every 20 seconds (25 seconds blizz time, but we'll go with real time for now). So with that said, assuming you hotkey your base/camera key your base/click on your map, theres one action, a hotkey for your queen/click it, theres another, click/hotkey the inject button, click on the hatch, for a total of 4 apm per 20 seconds, that leaves you with ~ 12 apm per hatch you have. So unless your macro consists of 3 hatches, no unit production, no creep spread, no tech research, no extra hatcheries built, no upgrades etc then it's not possible to have even midgame macro ( 4-7 minutes for 3 hatches on average excluding zvz which is wonky) with 40 apm. Yeah I think 40 apm is way too low for Zerg macro lol. I'm pretty sure that's like 1 hands worth for me
I am sorry, I dont understand you. I was talking about injects in HotS. you can injects all 45sec. Theroretically you can inject all 40sec but mana-regen from queen is too low, gaining 25 mana takes 45sec for next inject. I use 5v5v inject method.
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We're saying that above 3 hatches with perfect efficiency it's not possible to inject below 40 apm
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On August 24 2015 01:53 bo1b wrote:
Assuming by macro you only mean injecting with a queen, you can inject every 20 seconds (25 seconds blizz time, but we'll go with real time for now)
its every 40 seconds blizz time (hots blizz time) (technically every 44.44 seconds because thats the time to regenerate 25 energy while the time for inject larvae to pop is 40 seconds)
which translates to every 28.57 (31.71 counting regeneration rate rather than larvae pop time) seconds real time, lets round to 30 seconds
4 actions every 30 seconds = 8 apm
you can manage exactly 5 bases of proper injections with 40 apm.
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On August 24 2015 02:58 Roblin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2015 01:53 bo1b wrote:
Assuming by macro you only mean injecting with a queen, you can inject every 20 seconds (25 seconds blizz time, but we'll go with real time for now) its every 40 seconds blizz time (hots blizz time) (technically every 44.44 seconds because thats the time to regenerate 25 energy while the time for inject larvae to pop is 40 seconds) which translates to every 28.57 (31.71 counting regeneration rate rather than larvae pop time) seconds real time, lets round to 30 seconds 4 actions every 30 seconds = 8 apm you can manage exactly 5 bases of proper injections with 40 apm.
Oh serious? I've been under the misconception that 1 second equaled 1 energy regen for the last 5 years.
My b.
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I'm so very sad that they gave up on worker mining efficiency and they will not even test it. Internal testing is not enough for a change like this. Worst news since the beta came out  .
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SoCal8910 Posts
On August 24 2015 02:58 Roblin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2015 01:53 bo1b wrote:
Assuming by macro you only mean injecting with a queen, you can inject every 20 seconds (25 seconds blizz time, but we'll go with real time for now) its every 40 seconds blizz time (hots blizz time) (technically every 44.44 seconds because thats the time to regenerate 25 energy while the time for inject larvae to pop is 40 seconds) which translates to every 28.57 (31.71 counting regeneration rate rather than larvae pop time) seconds real time, lets round to 30 seconds 4 actions every 30 seconds = 8 apm you can manage exactly 5 bases of proper injections with 40 apm.
But that's just injections lol. That's why I'm saying I don't think it's possible to do everything outside of a battle and have 40 apm.
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But arent these "OHHH's" and "AHHH's" happening because we see something that doesnt occur every 30 seconds? Games, sometimes a whole series builds up towards these moments.
Those moments occur when something unexpected happens. That is typically related to an impressive outplay which is something that cannot occur with macro mechanics, but only with micro and multitasking.
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On August 24 2015 03:21 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +But arent these "OHHH's" and "AHHH's" happening because we see something that doesnt occur every 30 seconds? Games, sometimes a whole series builds up towards these moments. Those moments occur when something unexpected happens. That is typically related to an impressive outplay which is something that cannot occur with macro mechanics, but only with micro and multitasking.
It's only that way in sc2 because they've made macro so disgustingly easy that outside of a few exceptions there's really no reason for everyone to be pretty similar in macro capabilities.
In sc2 though, bomber is lauded as having incredible macro, taeja vs nestea where nestea took out like 65 of taejas workers and taeja had like 5-6 orbitals and was able to win the game through macro was amazing, scarlet's creep spread gave khaldor an erection every cast she was featured in, the entire 4m style was incredibly almost entirely because macroing and microing like that is extremely impressive, drg vs inno from drg's perspective was a win banked incredibly on near flawless macro and a few new things in zerg micro.
Really, just because you can't see it doesn't mean that the exciting moments aren't predicated on macro as well.
And in reality, it's because of anything impressive as well.
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EPT
