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On August 01 2015 20:32 mishimaBeef wrote:
please realize that with the macro mechanics gone your opponent will be throwing more challenges at you (diverse, varied, unknown beforehand challenges)
yes that's right! instead of the cyclical, mechanical, rote muscle memory demands of 'macro mechanics' your opponent will be testing you! you will have to observe, assess, think, respond... not mash the keys from muscle memory
Game gets dumped down. It's not impressing to see such things now because you know that the player can now focus 100% on these things. Multitasking nerfed hard. And it's most seen with the auto inject ******
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multitasking nerfed hard? lol that is near impossible at this stage of the game
people will find other things to multitask, like that 3rd or 4th prong for an attack... or that extra base or two that gets up during a long fight
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On August 01 2015 20:12 Jenia6109 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2015 19:04 RaFox17 wrote:
I'm really worried by the direction of these changes. I enjoy having a game with macro and micro. The thing is that macro mechanics are not actually macro. Macro mechanics are maximizing your resource harvesting by doing similar things like it was in Brood War. It's not interesting to watch and it's not so funny to play. Really don't understand why everybody suddenly started to love Mules/Larva Injects/Chrono Boost.
It increases the skill ceiling which is something that quite a few people actually value.
And in the case of Chrono Boosts:
This is more of a strategical tool rather than a test of your mechanics (which, imho, is the core of the Protoss race anyway). Deciding what to Chrono in order to hit certain timings is quite a huge deal and the sort of decision making that I appreciate. Removing strategical options is never a good idea in an RTS...
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cooler strategical options would be having to plan out a 3rd and 4th prong for an attack because your opponent is able to easily deflect 2 prongs (since they don't have to tend to macro mechanics as much)
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On August 01 2015 21:44 mishimaBeef wrote:
cooler strategical options would be having to plan out a 3rd and 4th prong for an attack because your opponent is able to easily deflect 2 prongs (since they don't have to tend to macro mechanics as much)
We have all heard that argument and it's bs. Sounds good on paper, but it doesn't work in practice.
There are only so many prongs an attack can have before it becomes disadvantageous. There are only so many ways into someone's base. And splitting your army in five different parts isn't necessarily a good thing.
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yes the reason is becomes disadvantageous is because there is a limit to a human's ability to manage X number of tasks...
if Y tasks are 'macro mechanics' then you now have Y new tasks to allocate
it's the same old argument with MBS and automine from back in the day... but i don't see anyone arguing that the game would be more action packed and strategic without these features
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On August 01 2015 20:30 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2015 20:08 [PkF] Wire wrote:
I've read all points and counterpoints about macro mechanics and I'm torn. I hate the idea of the game being dumbed down and the macro mechanical requirements being diminished in favor of micro ; this is a game of primarily macro, this is Starcraft, not Warcraft or a MOBA. Nevertheless, I agree that the pace of the game would benefit from it. The only thing I'm certain about is I despise the idea of automated injects. This would open the door to too many things. I'd rather have no macro mechanics at all with hatcheries spawning more larvae right from the get go than this.
I still think this is one of the less inspired community updates to date. Auto-cast is a cleaner change than Hatcheries auto-spawning extra larva. The latter would require more work from Blizzard to rebalance the game as Queen's would have less worth and sniping them would no longer slow down production.
Neither mule nor larva injection needs to be reworked because both are of a CHOICE as both OC and Queen have other spells to cast. You always have to balance between scan and mule - or larva injection and creep tumor. The real problem is that there's only ONE option for P which is chronoboost. That doesn't make sense. It could be better if MSC is removed and the nexus inherits photon overcharge and mass recall.
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To everyone who argues macro is a crucial part of an RTS game, and should be at least 50% of the gameplay – who says what an RTS game should be like? Like is it written somewhere thta an RTS should consist of X% this and Y% that? No wonder there are no meaningful changes when every new idea is met with the same "That's not how an RTS should work" argument.
The devs at Blizzard are trying to make StarCraft a better game, analyzing what is wrong and how it could be better. I think they have done a really good job identifying the core problems. If it turns out macro mechanics are not beneficial for the game (there are several arguments for this), do you think they should not be changed because "they have been part of the game since forever and so they must be kept in the game forever?".
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On August 01 2015 21:59 mishimaBeef wrote:
yes the reason is becomes disadvantageous is because there is a limit to a human's ability to manage X number of tasks...
if Y tasks are 'macro mechanics' then you now have Y new tasks to allocate
The point is there are only so many places you can attack. You threaten the natural, you drop the third, you drop the main and what else is left? You can already do that in HotS. And there are times in which you are just unable to attack, not because you don't have the apm, but because you need to wait for stim for example.
Yes if there was no macro players would be able to focus a bit more on micro, but that is not starcraft imo. The game is already too focused on compositions. Dumbing down macro even more moves the game way closer to WC, than to SC.
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As long as this game becomes more exciting and action packed, while staying true to elements of starcraft as we know it, I think it will be for the better.
If sc2 is going to have a place in the future, the games need to be more dynamic and that will always be shown through skirmishes or armies clashing. It will not be with the macro side. At the core, it's still going to be large armies fighting. Similar to wc3 and DoW, but on a substantially larger scale.
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First people complained that:
a) automine
b) multiple building selection
c) unlimited unit selection
would make the game less strategic... i think at this point in the maturity of sc2 it is clear these are bogus arguments... the game is still incredibly demanding mechanically, and is chock full of strategic and micro diversity.
Similar argument applies here, removal of macro mechanic demands will not 'dumb down' the game... if anything it will do the opposite.
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Are people happy with the current reaper?
From mainly tvt I feel the grenade are to strong or that they are able to bypass terrain to early.
Additionally is anyone using it aside from the early game? I thought the grenade was there to increase reaper usage over a whole game.
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I think there is a misconception due to a lack of a coherent message from Blizzard. Let me try to simplify and interpret: Blizzard wants to make the game more action packed. Removal of these "apm-sinks" allows the already available APM of players to be allocated to something more. This "something more" has yet to be identified.
Please, until Blizzard announces a complete removal of these APM-macro-tasks and what their replacements will be, consider if you are willing to try a different approach to macro mechanics in SC2 not how their are "dumbing down" the game
Though, this is just my opinion.
Please and thank you
Bingbing
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On August 01 2015 22:43 BingbingBOPOMOFO wrote:
I think there is a misconception due to a lack of a coherent message from Blizzard. Let me try to simplify and interpret: Blizzard wants to make the game more action packed. Removal of these "apm-sinks" allows the already available APM of players to be allocated to something more. This "something more" has yet to be identified.
Please, until Blizzard announces a complete removal of these APM-macro-tasks and what their replacements will be, consider if you are willing to try a different approach to macro mechanics in SC2 not how their are "dumbing down" the game
Though, this is just my opinion.
Please and thank you
Bingbing
I think this "something more" is actually more micro. They are introducing units that require more attention (Disruptor, Warp Prism, Cyclone), and they are encouraging more expanding, more harassment, etc. which is again a good opportunity for smaller scale, "micro" battles and positioning. This is good, in my opinion, and also does not dumb down the game, only chages it.
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On August 01 2015 21:02 mishimaBeef wrote:
multitasking nerfed hard? lol that is near impossible at this stage of the game
people will find other things to multitask, like that 3rd or 4th prong for an attack... or that extra base or two that gets up during a long fight
Not really. There are already many situations where good multitasking isn't needed during the midgame. For example in PvP where you just sit in your base and mass colossi.
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is that LotV PvP?
also that's only a small part of the game... heck multitasking is underpowered for the first minute or two... but multitasking isn't nerfed as a whole... for that to be true, someone with say 120 apm should be able to perform all that a 150 apm player can (talking average apm for the game)
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Lets go with option 2 and see what happens please! Begging you Blizzard! :D
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On August 01 2015 23:03 mishimaBeef wrote:
is that LotV PvP?
also that's only a small part of the game... heck multitasking is underpowered for the first minute or two... but multitasking isn't nerfed as a whole... for that to be true, someone with say 120 apm should be able to perform all that a 150 apm player can (talking average apm for the game)
No I was thinking about HotS since there is a meta we can talk about. But there are equivalent situations in LotV too. 120 apm is still pretty low even assuming no spam, and pretty much anyone can achieve 150 apm without spam. Going beyond that doesn't reward you in lots of situations (not always).
What I'm saying is that if a random gm player downloads the replays of top koreans and sees that they play as fast as he does, multitasking isn't that hard and there's no point in reducing it even further.
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well apm isn't a great metric anyway..
for example say i'm trying to hold a certain position
1) i could hold position my army in a great formation... this costs me a larger initial spending of actions and then after i press hold position i can just monitor the army briefly to see if it needs an attack move command (i.e. if the opponent charges in) or whatever ability activations
2) alternatively, i could babysit the army moving back and forth, dancing, stutter stepping... here, instead of taking the large initial spending of action to position my army optimally, i just spend my actions over time through movement reaction...
it might be the case that in scenario case 2 i spent a lot more apm without actually accomplishing much more... but in scenario 1, even though i had to put up that initial investment of say 15 actions to position my army before pressing hold position, i was able to divert my attention to other tasks and only spend 1-2 actions every so often to 'check on' the position when the enemy comes in range
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On August 01 2015 21:01 cabal] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2015 20:32 mishimaBeef wrote:
please realize that with the macro mechanics gone your opponent will be throwing more challenges at you (diverse, varied, unknown beforehand challenges)
yes that's right! instead of the cyclical, mechanical, rote muscle memory demands of 'macro mechanics' your opponent will be testing you! you will have to observe, assess, think, respond... not mash the keys from muscle memory Game gets dumped down. It's not impressing to see such things now because you know that the player can now focus 100% on these things. Multitasking nerfed hard. And it's most seen with the auto inject ******
Haha, you sound like the retards of 2010:" THE GAME IS TOO EASY! I WONT EVER IMPROVE! IAM AT THE PEAK OF MY SKILL! THERE IS NO ROOM TO IMPROVE!" Basically every american pro. Brood war had non of these macro mechanics. And even top tier player cant catch up with the macro in brood war.
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EPT
