Here is a build I made for PvT. Basically you get 4 gates and a proxy warp prism, drop 4 adepts and warp in 4 adepts. I have some unreasonably high win rates with it, if others are interested in abusing it here is the build / tutorial:
I have been trying to use this build to show how imba adepts are against terran in the early game. They shred marines and almost kill a marauder 1 on 1. Since protoss production is front loaded it's unrealistic to have 8 marauders out in time (3:40). Adepts do not die to a mine shot. With prism micro, you can pick up hurt ones and roll them back like blink. This also cancels the lock on attack from a cyclone, rendering them quite useless.
Against my terran friends who are also low masters, this build and variations of it are pretty notorious. None of them have found a way to hold it which is NOT kill the prism before it happens. Since you have about 20 marines max when this hits (3 rax openers) you cannot cover even a single side of your main fully. If the warp in goes through, the game is over.
Now, I posted this a battle.net and had a good number of people say "what about this what if that" and believe me we have tried most everything. Still however I have been challenged to beat some terrans much better than myself in HOTS to really prove it is imba. I tried to find gm HOTS terrans (or currently gm LOTV) on battle.net but no one volunteered to play. If someone here wants to try it out, we should play a few.
There is no way to hold it partially because adepts have too many flat stats on them right now.
I went over this on my stream but adepts have more health/shields than blink stalkers, mobility with no upgrade required, an upgrade to make them even tankier, and even cost less than a stalker.
I'm pretty sure blizzard will change them soon, their stats are completely messed up at the moment. Pretty much every single TvP in beta at the moment is adept abuse and also being able to expand + afford an oracle and you have a free lead because Terran has to overdefend vs two threats that require entirely different responses.
Turret b4 ebay would help out a lot vs oracles...except the problem is adepts themselves too.
I am a HotS "high" master terran and I played around 50 games LotV so far - I definitely have to agree on your analysis!
Adepts basically destroy all viable terran early game units (marines, hellions, reaper) due to their bonus damage vs light units. Marauders don't go down immediately, but I would not consider them as particular "good" against adepts (no bonus damage etc.). You also need really early techlabs to produce them and you will be in trouble against any early air aggression such as mothership core harass or oracle play. Please keep also in mind that you definitely have to wall-in against adept play because they can easily bypass your bunker with their ability.
I also think that adepts are way too "tanky" in protoss mid- and lategame army compositions
you can hold it with 1/1/1 if you continiously make marines off reactors, cyclone off factory and banshee on starport, and make 2 bunkers in base and at front if you see protoss at one base and get 1-2 cyclones out while delaying.
Problem is that you can swap between stalker and adepts with it, which gives problem since cyclones are bad vs followup after this if they produce immortal+stalkers as cycloens do not do well vs cyclones at all until you get upgrades due to expense and slow build time- you need to open siege tanks against stalkers and if protoss decides to swap midway through, its gets pretty bad as stalkers and adept require 2 different responses from factory.
Bio openers are fine with it if you open marauders instead of marines- that seems to be way to go nowdays.
On July 28 2015 17:06 StaN.de wrote: I am a HotS "high" master terran and I played around 50 games LotV so far - I definitely have to agree on your analysis!
Adepts basically destroy all viable terran early game units (marines, hellions, reaper) due to their bonus damage vs light units. Marauders don't go down immediately, but I would not consider them as particular "good" against adepts (no bonus damage etc.). You also need really early techlabs to produce them and you will be in trouble against any early air aggression such as mothership core harass or oracle play. Please keep also in mind that you definitely have to wall-in against adept play because they can easily bypass your bunker with their ability.
I also think that adepts are way too "tanky" in protoss mid- and lategame army compositions
Adepts are incredibly strong early game and when shield timing hits for sure, but lategame not all that great as advertised. Its just another protoss gateway meatshield with poor damage except it has 280 or so hp
Basically this. Why did they remove it, again ? Was bad for the diversity of the game ? After 3 years, can we allow the terrans to actually play during the early game without risking to GG because they left the mineral line ?
On July 28 2015 17:07 jinjin5000 wrote: you can hold it with 1/1/1 if you continiously make marines off reactors, cyclone off factory and banshee on starport, and make 2 bunkers in base and at front if you see protoss at one base and get 1-2 cyclones out while delaying.
This looks like a really really useful and viable opening against protoss. I like the "banshee & 2 bunkers" part the most :D #JustKidding
On July 28 2015 17:07 jinjin5000 wrote: you can hold it with 1/1/1 if you continiously make marines off reactors, cyclone off factory and banshee on starport, and make 2 bunkers in base and at front if you see protoss at one base and get 1-2 cyclones out while delaying.
This looks like a really really useful and viable opening against protoss. I like the "banshee & 2 bunkers" part the most :D #JustKidding
I usually reaper expand and then grab the other gas if i see protoss going adept or 1 basing and make bunkers instead of making cc with factory and starport. You can squeeze it out barely and maybe come out bit ahead or little bit behind depending on how much scvs adept killed when you pull it.
You need to identify if its 1 base blink or adept and then make siege tank or cyclone depending on it. Siege tanks are horrid vs adept but needed vs blink stalker/or whatever immortal push they do. You need cyclones against adept but its bad vs non-adepts
cyclones are NOT very good against adepts when there is a warp prism involved. The lock on is immediately ruined if the protoss drop micros well. The base DPS is not very good for the cyclone. The adepts struggle to kill them quickly but the thing with a very long fight is too many scvs will die. Like yes you can kill all the adepts with 2 banshees, but you will have exactly zero scvs alive after
On July 28 2015 17:02 avilo wrote: There is no way to hold it partially because adepts have too many flat stats on them right now.
I went over this on my stream but adepts have more health/shields than blink stalkers, mobility with no upgrade required, an upgrade to make them even tankier, and even cost less than a stalker.
I'm pretty sure blizzard will change them soon, their stats are completely messed up at the moment. Pretty much every single TvP in beta at the moment is adept abuse and also being able to expand + afford an oracle and you have a free lead because Terran has to overdefend vs two threats that require entirely different responses.
Turret b4 ebay would help out a lot vs oracles...except the problem is adepts themselves too.
On July 28 2015 17:02 avilo wrote: There is no way to hold it partially because adepts have too many flat stats on them right now.
I went over this on my stream but adepts have more health/shields than blink stalkers, mobility with no upgrade required, an upgrade to make them even tankier, and even cost less than a stalker.
I'm pretty sure blizzard will change them soon, their stats are completely messed up at the moment. Pretty much every single TvP in beta at the moment is adept abuse and also being able to expand + afford an oracle and you have a free lead because Terran has to overdefend vs two threats that require entirely different responses.
Turret b4 ebay would help out a lot vs oracles...except the problem is adepts themselves too.
Who would have thought that a unit that has better stats than all other units that can be fielded at the same time and comes of the warpgate could cause problems?
On July 28 2015 16:43 Goat_sc wrote: Here is a build I made for PvT. Basically you get 4 gates and a proxy warp prism, drop 4 adepts and warp in 4 adepts. I have some unreasonably high win rates with it, if others are interested in abusing it here is the build / tutorial:
Did you ever loose with this build, if yes, what was the T player defense?
the only win I get against this was due to 2wm that shot down the prism before it can drop anything, otherwise I always loose too many scv, mainly due to the fact that adept can over pass bunker and go to your mineral line or your production buildings.
I see no point in making guides for imbalanced units that are going to get patched soon, this Video was a prime example of how Adepts are just over powered. No offense, but there wasn't really much to learn from this video guide, except that Adepts are OP.
On July 28 2015 16:43 Goat_sc wrote: Here is a build I made for PvT. Basically you get 4 gates and a proxy warp prism, drop 4 adepts and warp in 4 adepts. I have some unreasonably high win rates with it, if others are interested in abusing it here is the build / tutorial:
Did you ever loose with this build, if yes, what was the T player defense?
the only win I get against this was due to 2wm that shot down the prism before it can drop anything, otherwise I always loose too many scv, mainly due to the fact that adept can over pass bunker and go to your mineral line or your production buildings.
I lost 2 games on ladder so far. One was the same, I fumbled the prism near a mine. The mine not only killed the prism (with marines helping) it also killed 4 adepts while warping in. The other a player managed to delay me from landing for long enough that his natural paid off and he could kill the adepts with bio + cyclone. My rate with the build is in the 90's I believe, yet my overall win rate is still near 50% due to losing to zergs rip
On July 29 2015 06:24 GGzerG wrote: I see no point in making guides for imbalanced units that are going to get patched soon, this Video was a prime example of how Adepts are just over powered. No offense, but there wasn't really much to learn from this video guide, except that Adepts are OP.
I say in the like my 3rd sentence I am using this build / vid as evidence that they are OP against terran. Did you not read that? The goal is much more to convince people that terran needs help with adepts more so than to actually teach people something.
I'm getting the feeling more people here believe adepts are too strong against terran compared to other places I have posted this, but elsewhere I was getting a ton of resistance to the idea
On July 29 2015 07:31 weikor wrote: what about raven to soak the initial shots, they seem to shoot very slow. Id be surprised if it worked though.
If you made a raven your bio and factory unit count will be very low. The adepts could either tank through the PDD or just phase to somewhere pdd doesnt cover.
Not only that, ravens dont spawn with enough energy for a PDD. I'm not even 100% sure you could cast a PDD in time after waiting to get energy.
Even with 2 banshees the terran loses too many scvs to actually win the game after, even if they clean everything up eventually. PDD doesnt even actively kill the adepts
These stupid adept all ins are the reason I am holding off playing the beta more. It's broken and even Blizz must realize this - as to whether they fix it in a sensible fashion or not is another question.
Blizzard just need to delay the Warpgate tech, make Twilight council for the criterion, or simply increase the warpgate research + increase the cost of the tech. Warpgate nerf is coming anyway. Problem solve.
On July 28 2015 17:02 avilo wrote: There is no way to hold it partially because adepts have too many flat stats on them right now.
I went over this on my stream but adepts have more health/shields than blink stalkers, mobility with no upgrade required, an upgrade to make them even tankier, and even cost less than a stalker.
I'm pretty sure blizzard will change them soon, their stats are completely messed up at the moment. Pretty much every single TvP in beta at the moment is adept abuse and also being able to expand + afford an oracle and you have a free lead because Terran has to overdefend vs two threats that require entirely different responses.
Turret b4 ebay would help out a lot vs oracles...except the problem is adepts themselves too.
Would you trade being able to build turrets without engineering bay for an increased price in the turret? Say 25 minerals more.
On July 29 2015 12:43 Thinh123456 wrote: Blizzard just need to delay the Warpgate tech, make Twilight council for the criterion, or simply increase the warpgate research + increase the cost of the tech. Warpgate nerf is coming anyway. Problem solve.
Blizzard said nothing about nerfing warp ins from warp prisms though, so this build isn't getting any nerfs to it.
He really needed to be counting pylons.................... He knew there was a proxy something out there once the scv ran right by your adepts ( as you were saying you couldn't stop it from entering the base funny enough, you hella shoulda just sniped it!) I am thinking of just opening rauders vs toss to see if I can get some work done without stim/combat shields style
On July 29 2015 12:43 Thinh123456 wrote: Blizzard just need to delay the Warpgate tech, make Twilight council for the criterion, or simply increase the warpgate research + increase the cost of the tech. Warpgate nerf is coming anyway. Problem solve.
Blizzard said nothing about nerfing warp ins from warp prisms though, so this build isn't getting any nerfs to it.
U really don't want to understand or what? Delay warpgate tech means more time to build up your army. LOL
On July 29 2015 15:06 TheWinks wrote: Where did he say anything about delaying warp gate research?
I just say that is one of the way to deal with that all-in because DK already said Blizzard is woking on the protoss right now and proposed some changes to the Warpgate.
On July 29 2015 12:43 Thinh123456 wrote: Blizzard just need to delay the Warpgate tech, make Twilight council for the criterion, or simply increase the warpgate research + increase the cost of the tech. Warpgate nerf is coming anyway. Problem solve.
Blizzard said nothing about nerfing warp ins from warp prisms though, so this build isn't getting any nerfs to it.
U really don't want to understand or what? Delay warpgate tech means more time to build up your army. LOL
If you're referring to DK's proposed warp-in changes, they don't delay warp gate, they just change the rules about where warp gates can warp in. This build warps to a warp prism, which bypasses that nerf entirely, so warpgate tech isn't delayed at all.
Even if you weren't referring to DK's proposed changes, AkashSky was. Don't be an asshole about it.
On July 29 2015 15:06 TheWinks wrote: Where did he say anything about delaying warp gate research?
I just say that is one of the way to deal with that all-in because DK already said Blizzard is woking on the protoss right now and proposed some changes to the Warpgate.
When you said "warpgate nerf is coming anyway," everyone naturally assumed you were referring to the actual proposed changes by the balance designer of this game, not some warpgate nerf that you proposed in this thread.
On July 29 2015 12:43 Thinh123456 wrote: Blizzard just need to delay the Warpgate tech, make Twilight council for the criterion, or simply increase the warpgate research + increase the cost of the tech. Warpgate nerf is coming anyway. Problem solve.
Blizzard said nothing about nerfing warp ins from warp prisms though, so this build isn't getting any nerfs to it.
U really don't want to understand or what? Delay warpgate tech means more time to build up your army. LOL
If you're referring to DK's proposed warp-in changes, they don't delay warp gate, they just change the rules about where warp gates can warp in. This build warps to a warp prism, which bypasses that nerf entirely, so warpgate tech isn't delayed at all.
Even if you weren't referring to DK's proposed changes, AkashSky was. Don't be an asshole about it.
On July 29 2015 15:06 TheWinks wrote: Where did he say anything about delaying warp gate research?
I just say that is one of the way to deal with that all-in because DK already said Blizzard is woking on the protoss right now and proposed some changes to the Warpgate.
When you said "warpgate nerf is coming anyway," everyone naturally assumed you were referring to the actual proposed changes by the balance designer of this game, not some warpgate nerf that you proposed in this thread.
OK. let me explain my idea:
1, I proposed a change to delay the warpgate tech by making Twilight council as a criterion to unlock the Warpgate Research on the Cybernatics core. You build your Robo then Twilight then can be able to research Warpgate tech on the Cyber core. Yeah, my English is not good so people can misunderstand me. Because DK said things related Warpgate (he want to change how the Warpgate works), and because of this 8 adept's all-in, i proposed a way to get rid of this all-in.
2, You guys said "Warpgate tech isn't delay at all". Why??? You need to build robotic bay, twilight council, then finally wait for a huge amount of time for the research on cybernatics core to complete. Why is it not delayed at all??
3, In my opinion, since the warpgate is delayed, as in the youtube video, at 3'49'' (ingame), the toss player can't have enough resources or gas to just fly the Warprism into the terran's base and warp in 4 additional adepts and finish the game. The most important thing is: with my idea, the earliest time (ingame) the protoss player must wait to finish the Warpgate research is 4'22''. The problem migh be solve. Everybody understand me now?
On July 29 2015 12:43 Thinh123456 wrote: Blizzard just need to delay the Warpgate tech, make Twilight council for the criterion, or simply increase the warpgate research + increase the cost of the tech. Warpgate nerf is coming anyway. Problem solve.
Blizzard said nothing about nerfing warp ins from warp prisms though, so this build isn't getting any nerfs to it.
U really don't want to understand or what? Delay warpgate tech means more time to build up your army. LOL
If you're referring to DK's proposed warp-in changes, they don't delay warp gate, they just change the rules about where warp gates can warp in. This build warps to a warp prism, which bypasses that nerf entirely, so warpgate tech isn't delayed at all.
Even if you weren't referring to DK's proposed changes, AkashSky was. Don't be an asshole about it.
Edit:
On July 29 2015 15:18 Thinh123456 wrote:
On July 29 2015 15:06 TheWinks wrote: Where did he say anything about delaying warp gate research?
I just say that is one of the way to deal with that all-in because DK already said Blizzard is woking on the protoss right now and proposed some changes to the Warpgate.
When you said "warpgate nerf is coming anyway," everyone naturally assumed you were referring to the actual proposed changes by the balance designer of this game, not some warpgate nerf that you proposed in this thread.
OK. let me explain my idea:
1, I proposed a change to delay the warpgate tech by making Twilight council as a criterion to unlock the Warpgate Research on the Cybernatics core. You build your Robo then Twilight then can be able to research Warpgate tech on the Cyber core. Yeah, my English is not good so people can misunderstand me. Because DK said things related Warpgate (he want to change how the Warpgate works), and because of this 8 adept's all-in, i proposed a way to get rid of this all-in.
2, You guys said "Warpgate tech isn't delay at all". Why??? You need to build robotic bay, twilight council, then finally wait for a huge amount of time for the research on cybernatics core to complete. Why is it not delayed at all??
3, In my opinion, since the warpgate is delayed, as in the youtube video, at 3'49'' (ingame), the toss player can't have enough resources or gas to just fly the Warprism into the terran's base and warp in 4 additional adepts and finish the game. The most important thing is: with my idea, the earliest time (ingame) the protoss player must wait to finish the Warpgate research is 4'22''. The problem migh be solve. Everybody understand me now?
Yes, we are all clear now that entirely separate from the changes to warpgate that have been discussed recently and are likely to make it into the game in some form, you personally have suggested an alternative in which Twilight is a requirement for warpgate. At least your tone is a little more conciliatory now, because this post:
On July 29 2015 12:43 Thinh123456 wrote: Blizzard just need to delay the Warpgate tech, make Twilight council for the criterion, or simply increase the warpgate research + increase the cost of the tech. Warpgate nerf is coming anyway. Problem solve.
Blizzard said nothing about nerfing warp ins from warp prisms though, so this build isn't getting any nerfs to it.
U really don't want to understand or what? Delay warpgate tech means more time to build up your army. LOL
I was considering using the report function for the first time because of this post. Even if you had been right, that's far too aggressive and obnoxious a way to talk to someone, and you weren't even right. Since he said "Blizzard said nothing about..." there was no way you could have misunderstood him to think he was talking about your suggestion.
What he was saying is that Blizzard already has ideas for warpgate changes that don't affect this build. On the other hand they aren't so far-reaching as your proposal, which would pretty dramatically move warpgate tech and be a much larger nerf to warpgates than Blizzard seems to be looking for. Therefore your proposal seems fairly unlikely to ever get tested in the beta, and it makes more sense for us to discuss either the current build on LotV, or what will likely be the next build released to the public.
EPT
