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Active: 664 users

LotV Beta Balance Update - June 17

Forum Index > Legacy of the Void
164 CommentsPost a Reply
Normal
SetGuitarsToKill
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
Canada28396 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-19 02:05:06
June 19 2015 01:05 GMT
#1
[image loading]

General

  • Worker counter change displays 2 per mineral patch instead of 3 per patch.


Terran

    Ghost
  • New Ability: Anti-Armor Drone
  • Deploy a flying, destructible drone.
  • Channels a beam on a single target that reduces its armor by 3.
  • Ghost speed increased to 2.813

    Medivac
  • New upgrade: reduces unit unload delay from 1 sec to 0.5 sec
  • Energy upgrade removed

    Liberator
  • AG search radius indicator now is a dotted circle similar to Siege Tank in Siege Mode, but the ability’s start up still displays the animation.

  • Armory ship upgrade costs reduced to match vehicle upgrade costs


Zerg

    Overlord
  • Transport upgrade is now an upgrade available on Overlords individual. (Cost 25/25 per overlord, available from start of game)
  • Global transport upgrade removed.

    Ravager
  • No longer has the armored flag

    Viper
  • Parasitic Bomb ability cost increased from 100 to 125

  • Spore Crawler damage decreased from 15 +30 bio to 15 +15 bio


Protoss
    Disruptor
  • Damage increased from 145 to 145 +55shields


Source



+ Show Spoiler [polls] +
Poll: New Ghost Ability?

Don't like it (122)
 
68%

Like it (30)
 
17%

Unsure (28)
 
16%

180 total votes

Your vote: New Ghost Ability?

(Vote): Like it
(Vote): Don't like it
(Vote): Unsure


Poll: Ghost Speed?

Like it (124)
 
76%

Don't like it (26)
 
16%

Unsure (14)
 
9%

164 total votes

Your vote: Ghost Speed?

(Vote): Like it
(Vote): Don't like it
(Vote): Unsure


Poll: New Medivac Upgrade?

Don't like it (108)
 
62%

Like it (45)
 
26%

Unsure (21)
 
12%

174 total votes

Your vote: New Medivac Upgrade?

(Vote): Like it
(Vote): Don't like it
(Vote): Unsure


Poll: Liberator Visual Design Change?

Like it (75)
 
65%

Unsure (36)
 
31%

Don't like it (4)
 
3%

115 total votes

Your vote: Liberator Visual Design Change?

(Vote): Like it
(Vote): Don't like it
(Vote): Unsure


Poll: Armory upgrade cost change?

Like it (111)
 
87%

Don't like it (8)
 
6%

Unsure (8)
 
6%

127 total votes

Your vote: Armory upgrade cost change?

(Vote): Like it
(Vote): Don't like it
(Vote): Unsure


Poll: Overlord drop change?

Like it (96)
 
62%

Unsure (40)
 
26%

Don't like it (20)
 
13%

156 total votes

Your vote: Overlord drop change?

(Vote): Like it
(Vote): Don't like it
(Vote): Unsure


Poll: Ravager change?

Unsure (53)
 
46%

Like it (33)
 
29%

Don't like it (29)
 
25%

115 total votes

Your vote: Ravager change?

(Vote): Like it
(Vote): Don't like it
(Vote): Unsure


Poll: Parasitic Bomb change?

Like it (77)
 
70%

Unsure (18)
 
16%

Don't like it (15)
 
14%

110 total votes

Your vote: Parasitic Bomb change?

(Vote): Like it
(Vote): Don't like it
(Vote): Unsure


Poll: Spore Crawler change?

Like it (85)
 
81%

Unsure (11)
 
10%

Don't like it (9)
 
9%

105 total votes

Your vote: Spore Crawler change?

(Vote): Like it
(Vote): Don't like it
(Vote): Unsure


Poll: Disruptor Damage change?

Like it (57)
 
54%

Unsure (33)
 
31%

Don't like it (16)
 
15%

106 total votes

Your vote: Disruptor Damage change?

(Vote): Like it
(Vote): Don't like it
(Vote): Unsure


Poll: Do you like the general direction of these changes?

Unsure (70)
 
47%

Don't like it (40)
 
27%

Like it (39)
 
26%

149 total votes

Your vote: Do you like the general direction of these changes?

(Vote): Like it
(Vote): Don't like it
(Vote): Unsure


Facebook Twitter Reddit
Community News"As long as you have a warp prism you can't be bad at harassment" - Maru | @SetGuitars2Kill
Ethoex
Profile Joined June 2012
United States164 Posts
June 19 2015 01:16 GMT
#2
Glad to see the constant updates
"Until the very, very top, in almost anything all that matters, is how much work you put in. The only problem is that most people can't work hard even at things they do enjoy, much less things they don't have a real passion for." - Greg "IdrA" Fields
chipmonklord17
Profile Joined February 2011
United States11944 Posts
June 19 2015 01:19 GMT
#3
Wait...the unload upgrade was instead of caduceus reactor instead of ignite afterburners? Are they fucking for real?
caznitch
Profile Joined July 2012
Canada645 Posts
June 19 2015 01:21 GMT
#4
Confused about the overlord upgrade. Does this mean that individual overlords can be "upgraded" to be able to transport aka morphed into a transport overlord? Or is the upgrade simply researched by an overlord, thereby giving the upgrade to all overlords?
why?
SetGuitarsToKill
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
Canada28396 Posts
June 19 2015 01:22 GMT
#5
On June 19 2015 10:21 caznitch wrote:
Confused about the overlord upgrade. Does this mean that individual overlords can be "upgraded" to be able to transport aka morphed into a transport overlord? Or is the upgrade simply researched by an overlord, thereby giving the upgrade to all overlords?

Single overlords are upgraded, just like morphing to overseers
Community News"As long as you have a warp prism you can't be bad at harassment" - Maru | @SetGuitars2Kill
NyxNax
Profile Joined March 2014
United States227 Posts
June 19 2015 01:23 GMT
#6
Didnt they say last patch the ravager was too weak so they made it armored and now they just removed the armored but did nothing else? I could be remembering this incorrectly or confusing it with something else
[PkF] Wire
Profile Joined March 2013
France24202 Posts
June 19 2015 01:23 GMT
#7
The disruptor change makes zero sense to me. The rest is quite fine though the ghost ability is inelegant.
Morbidius
Profile Joined November 2010
Brazil3449 Posts
June 19 2015 01:27 GMT
#8
Ravager is still garbage, ghost could be the answer to ultras we need.
Has foreign StarCraft hit rock bottom?
redviper
Profile Joined May 2010
Pakistan2333 Posts
June 19 2015 01:35 GMT
#9
Whats the cost of the overlord upgrade?
SetGuitarsToKill
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
Canada28396 Posts
June 19 2015 01:43 GMT
#10
On June 19 2015 10:23 [PkF] Wire wrote:
The disruptor change makes zero sense to me. The rest is quite fine though the ghost ability is inelegant.

inelegant is a good word for it. It feels like they accidentally created a hard-counter to bio with ultralisks so they are band-aiding it with this ghost thing.
Community News"As long as you have a warp prism you can't be bad at harassment" - Maru | @SetGuitars2Kill
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19234 Posts
June 19 2015 01:50 GMT
#11
On June 19 2015 10:43 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 10:23 [PkF] Wire wrote:
The disruptor change makes zero sense to me. The rest is quite fine though the ghost ability is inelegant.

inelegant is a good word for it. It feels like they accidentally created a hard-counter to bio with ultralisks so they are band-aiding it with this ghost thing.

Snipe should also reduce armor for three seconds. Then ghost can have other nice things! All this new ability means is the current ones aren't getting adjusted, at least as of yet. Everything else I will be looking forward to seeing play out.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
BigRedDog
Profile Joined May 2012
461 Posts
June 19 2015 01:58 GMT
#12
Much harder *costly* for Zerg to do doom drops....
Big Red Dog!
Shellshock
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States97276 Posts
June 19 2015 02:10 GMT
#13
On June 19 2015 10:23 [PkF] Wire wrote:
The disruptor change makes zero sense to me. The rest is quite fine though the ghost ability is inelegant.

I think they just said they wanted more disruptors in pvp
Moderatorhttp://i.imgur.com/U4xwqmD.png
TL+ Member
AKAvg
Profile Joined April 2014
Brazil298 Posts
June 19 2015 02:17 GMT
#14
Is this overlord change from global to individual supposed to be a nerf or buff?

Medivac buff? Yet another upgrade for one of the most powerful Terran unit :S
sM.Zik
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada2547 Posts
June 19 2015 02:20 GMT
#15
On June 19 2015 11:17 AKAvg wrote:
Is this overlord change from global to individual supposed to be a nerf or buff?


More of a rework. Early game buff, late game nerf I believe.
Jaedong Fighting! | youtube.com/ZikGaming
pure.Wasted
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada4701 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-19 02:34:15
June 19 2015 02:25 GMT
#16
On June 19 2015 10:43 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 10:23 [PkF] Wire wrote:
The disruptor change makes zero sense to me. The rest is quite fine though the ghost ability is inelegant.

inelegant is a good word for it. It feels like they accidentally created a hard-counter to bio with ultralisks so they are band-aiding it with this ghost thing.


Lol, accidentally? What might they have been trying to do, by increasing the Ultralisk's armor, if not create a hard counter to bio?

On June 19 2015 10:50 BisuDagger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 10:43 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On June 19 2015 10:23 [PkF] Wire wrote:
The disruptor change makes zero sense to me. The rest is quite fine though the ghost ability is inelegant.

inelegant is a good word for it. It feels like they accidentally created a hard-counter to bio with ultralisks so they are band-aiding it with this ghost thing.

Snipe should also reduce armor for three seconds. Then ghost can have other nice things! All this new ability means is the current ones aren't getting adjusted, at least as of yet. Everything else I will be looking forward to seeing play out.


Disregarding the obvious and absurd overlap between Snipe and AAD for the moment, is the Ghost seriously going to have five active abilities in LOTV? No freaking wonder they don't just give the Ghost Stim. That would push the ability count to six on a single 200/100 unit!

Conspiracy theory time! Blizzard made Snipe and AAD separate skills on purpose, so that when we point out how silly this is and they "give in" and merge them, they can say "look, we listen to the community!" But in reality, having only one mediocre and boring ability on the Ghost, as opposed to two separate sub-mediocre and boring ones, was their diabolical plan all along!

Why is no one from Blizzard talking about finding a way to make Reapers counter Ultralisks? Heck, if we found a way to do that, we might accidentally stumble on a way to make Reapers actual units in the game while we're at it.

INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you
pure.Wasted
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada4701 Posts
June 19 2015 02:30 GMT
#17
On June 19 2015 11:20 sM.Zik wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 11:17 AKAvg wrote:
Is this overlord change from global to individual supposed to be a nerf or buff?


More of a rework. Early game buff, late game nerf I believe.


It's a theoretical late game nerf. In reality, no Zergs actually get Ventral Sacs, so it's a straight buff.
INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15956 Posts
June 19 2015 02:30 GMT
#18
Implementing the ghost drone and the medivac unload buff really shows they are listening to the community...
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
KaZeFenrir
Profile Joined July 2014
United States37 Posts
June 19 2015 02:35 GMT
#19
Kind of meh. But glad they are trying new things. I hate when they introduce new units then struggle to find a proper place for them.

Too much hard counter abilities going on with them and the ghost ability. The ghost is still useless. What happened to the speed upgrade? They should rework snipe somehow and make it a generally useful ability like it used to be. The anti armor drone seems dumb as I doubt it will move meaning it will only be useful defensively, and since it can be destroyed no one will waste energy on them. I don't see a scenario where you're going to build ghosts for this skill on its own, and in TvP you're going to care much more about EMP or snipe rather than this. How about adding a phase walking ability to them? They cloak and turn invisible for a set period and can't be hit. This allows you to actually relieve them from the battlefield rather than watching as they die with every retreat.

I agree the medivac upgrade is kind of op and dumb. I'd much rather see a heal while unloading upgrade, which is a thing they can't do and wouldn't be ridiculously overpowered.

I do like the overlord ability. It will make blocking their ramps in their bases with ff a lot harder and opens up some early game harass options. They're probably going to move it to later in the tech tree though.
pure.Wasted
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada4701 Posts
June 19 2015 02:41 GMT
#20
On June 19 2015 11:35 KaZeFenrir wrote:The anti armor drone seems dumb as I doubt it will move meaning it will only be useful defensively, and since it can be destroyed no one will waste energy on them. I don't see a scenario where you're going to build ghosts for this skill on its own


I agree with most of the stuff in your post, but I think you misunderstand the point and functionality of the Drone. It's clearly meant to serve as the bio counter to Ultralisks, and to do that it would absolutely have to follow the Ultras around. Presumably it will do so until the timer runs out or it's shot down by anti-air (Queen, Muta, Hydra).
INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you
invisigoat
Profile Joined March 2013
184 Posts
June 19 2015 03:04 GMT
#21
On June 19 2015 11:17 AKAvg wrote:
Medivac buff? Yet another upgrade for one of the most powerful Terran unit :S

As OP as the upgrade may seem, I like it and don't think it will be a problem. To get the upgrade you first need to sacrifice the bonus of the reactor for the duration of the upgrading time which can slow you down substantially. Also, it's no more OP than the boost is and players adjusted to it just fine even though it seemed extremely unfair at first.

I like the changes overall, except I'm not quite sure about the ghost.
Penev
Profile Joined October 2012
28477 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-19 04:55:41
June 19 2015 03:09 GMT
#22
On June 19 2015 11:25 pure.Wasted wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 10:43 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On June 19 2015 10:23 [PkF] Wire wrote:
The disruptor change makes zero sense to me. The rest is quite fine though the ghost ability is inelegant.

inelegant is a good word for it. It feels like they accidentally created a hard-counter to bio with ultralisks so they are band-aiding it with this ghost thing.


Lol, accidentally? What might they have been trying to do, by increasing the Ultralisk's armor, if not create a hard counter to bio?

Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 10:50 BisuDagger wrote:
On June 19 2015 10:43 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
On June 19 2015 10:23 [PkF] Wire wrote:
The disruptor change makes zero sense to me. The rest is quite fine though the ghost ability is inelegant.

inelegant is a good word for it. It feels like they accidentally created a hard-counter to bio with ultralisks so they are band-aiding it with this ghost thing.

Snipe should also reduce armor for three seconds. Then ghost can have other nice things! All this new ability means is the current ones aren't getting adjusted, at least as of yet. Everything else I will be looking forward to seeing play out.


Disregarding the obvious and absurd overlap between Snipe and AAD for the moment, is the Ghost seriously going to have five active abilities in LOTV? No freaking wonder they don't just give the Ghost Stim. That would push the ability count to six on a single 200/100 unit!

Conspiracy theory time! Blizzard made Snipe and AAD separate skills on purpose, so that when we point out how silly this is and they "give in" and merge them, they can say "look, we listen to the community!" But in reality, having only one mediocre and boring ability on the Ghost, as opposed to two separate sub-mediocre and boring ones, was their diabolical plan all along!

Why is no one from Blizzard talking about finding a way to make Reapers counter Ultralisks? Heck, if we found a way to do that, we might accidentally stumble on a way to make Reapers actual units in the game while we're at it.


I don't like that as well. I suggested to introduce the Spectre in the "new Terran unit" thread and have a few abilities divided over them (Spectre and Ghost). Maybe one more anti bio (Zerg) and the other anti mech (Protoss). Beats this swiss army knife Ghost imo (and the Liberator).
Oh wel..

Edit: But apparently Sniper Rounds has been removed? If so, you'd expect they'd mention that.
I Protoss winner, could it be?
eCakes
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia32 Posts
June 19 2015 03:17 GMT
#23
I'm going to make you pay for those widow mine drops now terran mwhahahahaha.

I love that they are trying to change things up with drops for zerg, still have to get the speed upgrade but will be nice to see what lurker and other drop timings get nutted out.

Also pretty happy that muta is being made a little more viable again, roach wars can just go away again.

The ravager change is ok but not really enough, I'm still probably not going to use them.
Unexplained Bacon
brickrd
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
United States4894 Posts
June 19 2015 03:21 GMT
#24
so... is there something preventing zerg from going for a cheesy 8 ling drop into the main base with the first scouting overlord?
TL+ Member
ThunderBum
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia192 Posts
June 19 2015 03:28 GMT
#25
On June 19 2015 12:21 brickrd wrote:
so... is there something preventing zerg from going for a cheesy 8 ling drop into the main base with the first scouting overlord?


A handful of workers plus whatever units the other player will have?
y0su
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Finland7871 Posts
June 19 2015 03:29 GMT
#26
I think medivac buff is a step in the wrong direction

why can't they just make nuke or snipe useful for ghosts instead of adding a destructible single target anti guardian-shield?
(seriously, snipe is one of the coolest [sounding] spells in the game AND already was an ultra counter pre-nerf...)

the rest of the changes seem okay to try (I'm really curious about zergs spending their first 25 gas on transport and dropping slow lings with a single overlord).
FrostedMiniWheats
Profile Joined August 2010
United States30730 Posts
June 19 2015 03:29 GMT
#27
Overlord
Transport upgrade is now an upgrade available on Overlords individual. (Cost 25/25 per overlord, available from start of game)


It's hatch tech?! Holy shit
NesTea | Mvp | MC | Leenock | Losira | Gumiho | DRG | Taeja | Jinro | Stephano | Thorzain | Sen | Idra |Polt | Bomber | Symbol | Squirtle | Fantasy | Jaedong | Maru | sOs | Seed | ByuN | ByuL | Neeb| Scarlett | Rogue | IM forever
tili
Profile Joined July 2012
United States1332 Posts
June 19 2015 03:32 GMT
#28
woah, really interested to see what the OL upgrade might do... seeing as bane drops on workers are much cheaper/faster now
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
June 19 2015 03:35 GMT
#29
On June 19 2015 12:32 tili wrote:
woah, really interested to see what the OL upgrade might do... seeing as bane drops on workers are much cheaper/faster now


Not really cheaper in the long run. After you pay for 8 overlords it would have been cheaper to get the upgrade.
When I think of something else, something will go here
Uvantak
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Uruguay1381 Posts
June 19 2015 03:38 GMT
#30
Apparently Sniper Rounds from the ghost have been removed to "make space" for the new ability.

[image loading]

On Reddit
@Kantuva | Mapmaker | KTVMaps.wordpress.com | Check my profile to see my TL map threads, and you can search for KTV in the Custom Games section to play them.
pure.Wasted
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada4701 Posts
June 19 2015 03:39 GMT
#31
On June 19 2015 12:35 blade55555 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 12:32 tili wrote:
woah, really interested to see what the OL upgrade might do... seeing as bane drops on workers are much cheaper/faster now


Not really cheaper in the long run. After you pay for 8 overlords it would have been cheaper to get the upgrade.


Why would you pay for 8 Overlords? Are you expecting to lose every one?
INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you
TheWinks
Profile Joined July 2011
United States572 Posts
June 19 2015 03:50 GMT
#32
Why did they remove snipe? Why didn't they mention removing snipe? Why are we kicking late game bio in the nuts more?
BronzeKnee
Profile Joined March 2011
United States5217 Posts
June 19 2015 04:01 GMT
#33
On June 19 2015 12:29 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
Show nested quote +
Overlord
Transport upgrade is now an upgrade available on Overlords individual. (Cost 25/25 per overlord, available from start of game)


It's hatch tech?! Holy shit


This could lead to some cool timings, but say goodbye to Forge fast expand.
-Kyo-
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Japan1926 Posts
June 19 2015 04:07 GMT
#34
Look at all these changes to Protoss and the economy ..!! >.>..... please... blizzard..
Anime is cuter than you. Legacy of the Void GM Protoss Gameplay: twitch.tv/kyo7763 youtube.com/user/KyoStarcraft/
TL+ Member
ZackAttack
Profile Joined June 2011
United States884 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-19 04:11:50
June 19 2015 04:10 GMT
#35
On June 19 2015 13:01 BronzeKnee wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 12:29 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
Overlord
Transport upgrade is now an upgrade available on Overlords individual. (Cost 25/25 per overlord, available from start of game)


It's hatch tech?! Holy shit


This could lead to some cool timings, but say goodbye to Forge fast expand.


Aww. I love forge fast expand. This is gonna cause a lot of in game rage. lol

Edit: I can't believe they didn't do anything to buff protoss. It's still unplayable it is so bad.
It's better aerodynamics for space. - Artosis
Sogetsu
Profile Joined July 2011
514 Posts
June 19 2015 04:13 GMT
#36
By the Overlord drops, it seems nice, before it was a 200 / 200 upgrade that took so long... and now it is a 25 / 25 per Ovi and it is made in seconds. It is kinda nice, so when you think on dropping, you can spend something like 75 / 75 and send 3 filled Ovis.

The Ghost ability is disgusting... I can't find good words...
Raptor: "Es hora de salvar a los E-Sports..." http://i3.minus.com/ibtne3liprtByB.png
brickrd
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
United States4894 Posts
June 19 2015 04:23 GMT
#37
On June 19 2015 12:28 ThunderBum wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 12:21 brickrd wrote:
so... is there something preventing zerg from going for a cheesy 8 ling drop into the main base with the first scouting overlord?


A handful of workers plus whatever units the other player will have?

nvm, was still thinking of hots overlord timing because i havent been playing lotv since it got boring
TL+ Member
vVvTitan
Profile Joined May 2015
8 Posts
June 19 2015 04:24 GMT
#38
return of the lurker drops!
eviltomahawk
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States11135 Posts
June 19 2015 04:46 GMT
#39
Snipe removal is hopefully a bug since it doesn't seem to be documented anywhere. It was pretty essential to killing HTs. They'd better hotfix it soon, at least by next patch.
ㅇㅅㅌㅅ
chipmonklord17
Profile Joined February 2011
United States11944 Posts
June 19 2015 04:49 GMT
#40
On June 19 2015 12:39 pure.Wasted wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 12:35 blade55555 wrote:
On June 19 2015 12:32 tili wrote:
woah, really interested to see what the OL upgrade might do... seeing as bane drops on workers are much cheaper/faster now


Not really cheaper in the long run. After you pay for 8 overlords it would have been cheaper to get the upgrade.


Why would you pay for 8 Overlords? Are you expecting to lose every one?


How does that logic make sense? Why would you pay for 8 medivacs? Are you expecting to lose every one?


I still don't see why the don't just make speed+drop one more expensive upgrade. This upgrade individual overlords seems fucking silly
pure.Wasted
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada4701 Posts
June 19 2015 05:05 GMT
#41
On June 19 2015 13:49 chipmonklord17 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 12:39 pure.Wasted wrote:
On June 19 2015 12:35 blade55555 wrote:
On June 19 2015 12:32 tili wrote:
woah, really interested to see what the OL upgrade might do... seeing as bane drops on workers are much cheaper/faster now


Not really cheaper in the long run. After you pay for 8 overlords it would have been cheaper to get the upgrade.


Why would you pay for 8 Overlords? Are you expecting to lose every one?


How does that logic make sense? Why would you pay for 8 medivacs? Are you expecting to lose every one?


You would pay for 8 Medivacs because without 8 Medivacs, your bio isn't worth the Barracks it came out of.

How many Overlords do you need to drop 4 Banelings in a mineral line every couple of minutes?
INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you
chipmonklord17
Profile Joined February 2011
United States11944 Posts
June 19 2015 05:12 GMT
#42
On June 19 2015 14:05 pure.Wasted wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 13:49 chipmonklord17 wrote:
On June 19 2015 12:39 pure.Wasted wrote:
On June 19 2015 12:35 blade55555 wrote:
On June 19 2015 12:32 tili wrote:
woah, really interested to see what the OL upgrade might do... seeing as bane drops on workers are much cheaper/faster now


Not really cheaper in the long run. After you pay for 8 overlords it would have been cheaper to get the upgrade.


Why would you pay for 8 Overlords? Are you expecting to lose every one?


How does that logic make sense? Why would you pay for 8 medivacs? Are you expecting to lose every one?


You would pay for 8 Medivacs because without 8 Medivacs, your bio isn't worth the Barracks it came out of.

How many Overlords do you need to drop 4 Banelings in a mineral line every couple of minutes?


Assuming they're not stupid and have turrets beforehand or even after the 1st time, as many as overlords as times you want to drop? That's an even worse example of it. There isn't (shouldn't be) a way for an overlord who is by itself and dropping banelings to live. Between vikings/marines and turrets. Expect to pay for it every time you want in that situation.

Also here's a fun and unrelated idea. You can drop queens to spread creep in their base/expos if you rush lair. In a game where expansion is key with the new economy system it seems like Zerg are going to have a really good time blocking bases for the other races
brickrd
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
United States4894 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-19 05:14:48
June 19 2015 05:13 GMT
#43
On June 19 2015 14:05 pure.Wasted wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 13:49 chipmonklord17 wrote:
On June 19 2015 12:39 pure.Wasted wrote:
On June 19 2015 12:35 blade55555 wrote:
On June 19 2015 12:32 tili wrote:
woah, really interested to see what the OL upgrade might do... seeing as bane drops on workers are much cheaper/faster now


Not really cheaper in the long run. After you pay for 8 overlords it would have been cheaper to get the upgrade.


Why would you pay for 8 Overlords? Are you expecting to lose every one?


How does that logic make sense? Why would you pay for 8 medivacs? Are you expecting to lose every one?


You would pay for 8 Medivacs because without 8 Medivacs, your bio isn't worth the Barracks it came out of.

How many Overlords do you need to drop 4 Banelings in a mineral line every couple of minutes?

if baneling drops were that easy to pull off cost efficiently then they would already be meta in heart of the swarm dude... 100/100 to do baneling drops is really not that much more than 25/25 to do them, the problem is they are bad against anyone who isn't horrible enough to let you unload 4 banelings without pulling a single worker

edit: and watch for them after the first time like chipmonk said
TL+ Member
pure.Wasted
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada4701 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-19 05:26:11
June 19 2015 05:21 GMT
#44
If you guys are right and nothing short of a doomdrop will work, then... nothing's actually changed, and Blizzard's attempt is a complete failure - for ZvT, at least. I was assuming that Zerg players would be able to find new timings (pre-Muta) and openings (natural? third base? fourth base?) where Terrans might not want to prematurely invest in Turrets. Because let's face it, if the threat of Mutas isn't always enough to get a pro Terran to build Turrets in time, the question whether the threat of a couple of Banes here and there will be enough is an open one.

But like I said, if nothing short of doomdrops works, then ZvT is as ZvT was.
INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you
Lexender
Profile Joined September 2013
Mexico2647 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-19 05:28:03
June 19 2015 05:25 GMT
#45
On June 19 2015 14:12 chipmonklord17 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 14:05 pure.Wasted wrote:
On June 19 2015 13:49 chipmonklord17 wrote:
On June 19 2015 12:39 pure.Wasted wrote:
On June 19 2015 12:35 blade55555 wrote:
On June 19 2015 12:32 tili wrote:
woah, really interested to see what the OL upgrade might do... seeing as bane drops on workers are much cheaper/faster now


Not really cheaper in the long run. After you pay for 8 overlords it would have been cheaper to get the upgrade.


Why would you pay for 8 Overlords? Are you expecting to lose every one?


How does that logic make sense? Why would you pay for 8 medivacs? Are you expecting to lose every one?


You would pay for 8 Medivacs because without 8 Medivacs, your bio isn't worth the Barracks it came out of.

How many Overlords do you need to drop 4 Banelings in a mineral line every couple of minutes?


Assuming they're not stupid and have turrets beforehand or even after the 1st time, as many as overlords as times you want to drop? That's an even worse example of it. There isn't (shouldn't be) a way for an overlord who is by itself and dropping banelings to live. Between vikings/marines and turrets. Expect to pay for it every time you want in that situation.

Also here's a fun and unrelated idea. You can drop queens to spread creep in their base/expos if you rush lair. In a game where expansion is key with the new economy system it seems like Zerg are going to have a really good time blocking bases for the other races


How many warp prisms a protoss players gets? Same logic, turrets don't make protoss players need to make more than 1 or at best 2 warp prisms.

Also this change was actually one given as feedback in thread, TLO said this was a good idea and Blizzard said they were testing this. And if someone knows about zerg drops is TLO.
chipmonklord17
Profile Joined February 2011
United States11944 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-19 05:26:48
June 19 2015 05:25 GMT
#46
I feel like as a whole this overlord drop idea is one that seems to make sense in theory but is absolutely terrible in practice.

I get the idea Blizzard was trying to convey with it, for smaller, earlier drops use this overlord mechanic and for large more "doom drop" drops use a nydus. Make the transport transformation cheap enough such that it doesn't break the Zerg's bank to do but not free so its not 24/7 imba drop city. Fine that all makes sense, except actual practicality.

Zerg's aren't MEANT for small drops (aside from the previously mentioned baneling drops which honestly suck compared to their widow mine or general warpprism equivalents). The entire Zerg style and game play is based around masses and swarming. Small drops with Zerg are just not as good as the other races because of how the race's units are designed compared to Protoss and Terran. That's not a problem or imbalanced that's just how it is, Zerg is meant to swarm. Including an upgrade that promotes small dropping is counter-intuitive to the entirety of Zerg's game play. And if you're talking about doom dropping as Zerg then upgrading overlords individually becomes non cost efficient and defeats the entire purpose of the upgrade in the first place, as at that point you should use invincible nydus worms.

I truly don't understand why the upgrade is there

On June 19 2015 14:25 Lexender wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 14:12 chipmonklord17 wrote:
On June 19 2015 14:05 pure.Wasted wrote:
On June 19 2015 13:49 chipmonklord17 wrote:
On June 19 2015 12:39 pure.Wasted wrote:
On June 19 2015 12:35 blade55555 wrote:
On June 19 2015 12:32 tili wrote:
woah, really interested to see what the OL upgrade might do... seeing as bane drops on workers are much cheaper/faster now


Not really cheaper in the long run. After you pay for 8 overlords it would have been cheaper to get the upgrade.


Why would you pay for 8 Overlords? Are you expecting to lose every one?


How does that logic make sense? Why would you pay for 8 medivacs? Are you expecting to lose every one?


You would pay for 8 Medivacs because without 8 Medivacs, your bio isn't worth the Barracks it came out of.

How many Overlords do you need to drop 4 Banelings in a mineral line every couple of minutes?


Assuming they're not stupid and have turrets beforehand or even after the 1st time, as many as overlords as times you want to drop? That's an even worse example of it. There isn't (shouldn't be) a way for an overlord who is by itself and dropping banelings to live. Between vikings/marines and turrets. Expect to pay for it every time you want in that situation.

Also here's a fun and unrelated idea. You can drop queens to spread creep in their base/expos if you rush lair. In a game where expansion is key with the new economy system it seems like Zerg are going to have a really good time blocking bases for the other races


How many warp prisms a protoss players gets? Same logic, turrets don't make protoss players need to make more than 1 or at best 2 warp prisms.

Also this change was actually one given as feedback in thread, TLO said this was a good idea and Blizzard said they were testing this.


Warp prisms cannot have the same logic applied as the warp in mechanic allows 1 warp prism to "hold" as many units as you have warpgates off cool down
Pontius Pirate
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
United States1557 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-19 05:27:35
June 19 2015 05:26 GMT
#47
I just thought of a more interesting, more intuitive, and more useful version of the Ghost's drone. Instead of lowering armor by up to 3, it instead provides a flat damage buff on all attacks striking that target. This would give it a much greater use in the early and midgame, against units that might have less than 3 armor. The drone also desperately needs to have more health. Even if the cost was as low as 25 energy, Hydras chew through them so obscenely quickly that you could never reliably have as much coverage with the drones as you need. I'd say bump them up to 120 HP and the thematically appropriate 3 armor. That's as much HP as you can give them without making them no longer get 2-shot by corrosive bile.
"I had to close the door so my parents wouldn't judge me." - ZombieGrub during the ShitfaceTradeTV stream
pure.Wasted
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada4701 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-19 05:32:35
June 19 2015 05:29 GMT
#48
On June 19 2015 14:25 chipmonklord17 wrote:Zerg's aren't MEANT for small drops (aside from the previously mentioned baneling drops which honestly suck compared to their widow mine or general warpprism equivalents). The entire Zerg style and game play is based around masses and swarming. Small drops with Zerg are just not as good as the other races because of how the race's units are designed compared to Protoss and Terran. That's not a problem or imbalanced that's just how it is, Zerg is meant to swarm. Including an upgrade that promotes small dropping is counter-intuitive to the entirety of Zerg's game play. And if you're talking about doom dropping as Zerg then upgrading overlords individually becomes non cost efficient and defeats the entire purpose of the upgrade in the first place, as at that point you should use invincible nydus worms.


Zerg perform runbys all the time with a handful of Lings/Banes, and there's nothing "non-Zergy" about it despite the fact that it's not 200 supply worth of units. How is dropping one OL's worth of units any different from that?

On June 19 2015 14:26 Pontius Pirate wrote:
I just thought of a more interesting, more intuitive, and more useful version of the Ghost's drone. Instead of lowering armor by up to 3, it instead provides a flat damage buff on all attacks striking that target. This would give it a much greater use in the early and midgame, against units that might have less than 3 armor.


+3 damage instead of -3 armor? Interesting, and a big deal versus shields.

The drone also desperately needs to have more health. Even if the cost was as low as 25 energy, Hydras chew through them so obscenely quickly that you could never reliably have as much coverage with the drones as you need. I'd say bump them up to 120 HP and the thematically appropriate 3 armor. That's as much HP as you can give them without making them no longer get 2-shot by corrosive bile.


Are people going Ultra/Hydra? o.O
INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you
chipmonklord17
Profile Joined February 2011
United States11944 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-19 05:34:39
June 19 2015 05:32 GMT
#49
On June 19 2015 14:29 pure.Wasted wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 14:25 chipmonklord17 wrote:Zerg's aren't MEANT for small drops (aside from the previously mentioned baneling drops which honestly suck compared to their widow mine or general warpprism equivalents). The entire Zerg style and game play is based around masses and swarming. Small drops with Zerg are just not as good as the other races because of how the race's units are designed compared to Protoss and Terran. That's not a problem or imbalanced that's just how it is, Zerg is meant to swarm. Including an upgrade that promotes small dropping is counter-intuitive to the entirety of Zerg's game play. And if you're talking about doom dropping as Zerg then upgrading overlords individually becomes non cost efficient and defeats the entire purpose of the upgrade in the first place, as at that point you should use invincible nydus worms.


Zerg perform runbys all the time with a handful of Lings/Banes, and there's nothing "non-Zergy" about it despite the fact that it's not 200 supply worth of units. How is dropping one OL's worth of units any different from that?



Because a zergling runby can have as many zerglings as you want but the single overlord has a limit in capacity? For reference imagine a roach runby that is 4 roaches (that IS how many fit in an overlord right? I forget if its 4 or 6 but honestly its virtually the same thing). That does next to nothing, just as a roach drop would do.

The point of a runby is to force the opponent to either turn around or commit to whatever attack they're planning on doing, if said counterattack can be countered with just rallying units + SCVs then its a shitty counterattack. That's basically what an individual drop is
y0su
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Finland7871 Posts
June 19 2015 05:39 GMT
#50
Think about how many banes a single overlord can drop? You just bring them into the back of a player's main while there's a fight elsewhere and just move the banes into a mineral line... Can we at least see this in action (by tlo and snute) before it's written off as useless? (It's got to be more interesting than current overlord drops)
pure.Wasted
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada4701 Posts
June 19 2015 05:41 GMT
#51
On June 19 2015 14:32 chipmonklord17 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 14:29 pure.Wasted wrote:
On June 19 2015 14:25 chipmonklord17 wrote:Zerg's aren't MEANT for small drops (aside from the previously mentioned baneling drops which honestly suck compared to their widow mine or general warpprism equivalents). The entire Zerg style and game play is based around masses and swarming. Small drops with Zerg are just not as good as the other races because of how the race's units are designed compared to Protoss and Terran. That's not a problem or imbalanced that's just how it is, Zerg is meant to swarm. Including an upgrade that promotes small dropping is counter-intuitive to the entirety of Zerg's game play. And if you're talking about doom dropping as Zerg then upgrading overlords individually becomes non cost efficient and defeats the entire purpose of the upgrade in the first place, as at that point you should use invincible nydus worms.


Zerg perform runbys all the time with a handful of Lings/Banes, and there's nothing "non-Zergy" about it despite the fact that it's not 200 supply worth of units. How is dropping one OL's worth of units any different from that?



Because a zergling runby can have as many zerglings as you want but the single overlord has a limit in capacity? For reference imagine a roach runby that is 4 roaches (that IS how many fit in an overlord right? I forget if its 4 or 6 but honestly its virtually the same thing). That does next to nothing, just as a roach drop would do.


That's why I very cleverly focused on Lings and Banes in my post. Roaches don't runby, they free up supply in the general vicinity of enemy workers.

The point is runbys are not anti-Zerg, so dropping units for a runby isn't anti-Zerg, either, contrary to what you were trying to establish. The only question that matters is that of efficiency. How many Lings does Life use for a typical runby? If it's less than 50, then upgrading OLs individually will be significantly cheaper, faster, and more convenient than bogging down a Hatchery to research Ventral Sacs.
INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you
chipmonklord17
Profile Joined February 2011
United States11944 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-19 06:17:52
June 19 2015 05:55 GMT
#52
On June 19 2015 14:41 pure.Wasted wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 14:32 chipmonklord17 wrote:
On June 19 2015 14:29 pure.Wasted wrote:
On June 19 2015 14:25 chipmonklord17 wrote:Zerg's aren't MEANT for small drops (aside from the previously mentioned baneling drops which honestly suck compared to their widow mine or general warpprism equivalents). The entire Zerg style and game play is based around masses and swarming. Small drops with Zerg are just not as good as the other races because of how the race's units are designed compared to Protoss and Terran. That's not a problem or imbalanced that's just how it is, Zerg is meant to swarm. Including an upgrade that promotes small dropping is counter-intuitive to the entirety of Zerg's game play. And if you're talking about doom dropping as Zerg then upgrading overlords individually becomes non cost efficient and defeats the entire purpose of the upgrade in the first place, as at that point you should use invincible nydus worms.


Zerg perform runbys all the time with a handful of Lings/Banes, and there's nothing "non-Zergy" about it despite the fact that it's not 200 supply worth of units. How is dropping one OL's worth of units any different from that?



Because a zergling runby can have as many zerglings as you want but the single overlord has a limit in capacity? For reference imagine a roach runby that is 4 roaches (that IS how many fit in an overlord right? I forget if its 4 or 6 but honestly its virtually the same thing). That does next to nothing, just as a roach drop would do.


That's why I very cleverly focused on Lings and Banes in my post. Roaches don't runby, they free up supply in the general vicinity of enemy workers.

The point is runbys are not anti-Zerg, so dropping units for a runby isn't anti-Zerg, either, contrary to what you were trying to establish. The only question that matters is that of efficiency. How many Lings does Life use for a typical runby? If it's less than 50, then upgrading OLs individually will be significantly cheaper, faster, and more convenient than bogging down a Hatchery to research Ventral Sacs.


Ah yes the infamous 6 zergling run by. Run by's aren't anti zerg because they have more units than you can fit in a overlord. Although I've never counted I'd be inclined to say that Life uses more zerglings most run bys than you can fit in an overlord, and that he does more than 8 overlord's worth of lings in runbys.

Yes there are definitely going to be a few situations where this upgrade MIGHT be cheaper than the global upgrade but that sounds absurdly few and far between. Now if overlords had some "battle evolution" passive that after 8 overlords transforming then they all "evolve" into being able to drop that might make more sense. But as it stands it just seems like they've found a great theory that has no actual place in reality.

I actually took the time to look for a Life game to see if this was in fact the case.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/oSQoyfI-DfI

Life does 2 runbys in this game. One of 16 lings, that does virtually nothing. Kills a few marines and forces 4 -6 hellions to come home. And one with over 50 units of ling/bane. The second attack alone makes the overlord upgrade in this case not cost efficient completely ignoring the first counterattack, that even with 2 and change overlords worth of units does virtually nothing. Small drops just aren't Zerg. Not to mention that I can't personally think of a situation where you'd want to small drop instead of run by because of the difference in overlord drop time one at a time versus a group of lings just running to whatever location

Perhaps it becomes a way for zerg to get around forcefields in really niche situations but at that point you're just risking them targeting down the overlords and either supply blocking you or killing the units inside or both
ThunderBum
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia192 Posts
June 19 2015 06:09 GMT
#53
The old overlord drop upgrade is a big cost up front when resources are much harder to come by. Individually upgraded ovies is a more economically efficient way of enabling drops earlier in the game. By late game if you're going for that big of a drop, just use a nydus?
albis
Profile Joined January 2010
United States652 Posts
June 19 2015 06:11 GMT
#54
i think its great to have alot of minidrops optional. choke points just murder zerg. this gives a bit of diversity to delay an enemy
every punch is thrown with bad intentions with the speed of a devil
[F_]aths
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany3947 Posts
June 19 2015 06:36 GMT
#55
(Cost 25/25 per overlord, available from start of game)

YES!!! :D :D :D YES! Tier 1 transport (though with slow overlords.)
You don't choose to play zerg. The zerg choose you.
Deathstar
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
9150 Posts
June 19 2015 06:38 GMT
#56
I'm just imagining trying to elevator with a slow overload looool.
rip passion
Scarlett`
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada2385 Posts
June 19 2015 06:47 GMT
#57
On June 19 2015 14:29 pure.Wasted wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 14:25 chipmonklord17 wrote:Zerg's aren't MEANT for small drops (aside from the previously mentioned baneling drops which honestly suck compared to their widow mine or general warpprism equivalents). The entire Zerg style and game play is based around masses and swarming. Small drops with Zerg are just not as good as the other races because of how the race's units are designed compared to Protoss and Terran. That's not a problem or imbalanced that's just how it is, Zerg is meant to swarm. Including an upgrade that promotes small dropping is counter-intuitive to the entirety of Zerg's game play. And if you're talking about doom dropping as Zerg then upgrading overlords individually becomes non cost efficient and defeats the entire purpose of the upgrade in the first place, as at that point you should use invincible nydus worms.


Zerg perform runbys all the time with a handful of Lings/Banes, and there's nothing "non-Zergy" about it despite the fact that it's not 200 supply worth of units. How is dropping one OL's worth of units any different from that?

Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 14:26 Pontius Pirate wrote:
I just thought of a more interesting, more intuitive, and more useful version of the Ghost's drone. Instead of lowering armor by up to 3, it instead provides a flat damage buff on all attacks striking that target. This would give it a much greater use in the early and midgame, against units that might have less than 3 armor.


+3 damage instead of -3 armor? Interesting, and a big deal versus shields.

Show nested quote +
The drone also desperately needs to have more health. Even if the cost was as low as 25 energy, Hydras chew through them so obscenely quickly that you could never reliably have as much coverage with the drones as you need. I'd say bump them up to 120 HP and the thematically appropriate 3 armor. That's as much HP as you can give them without making them no longer get 2-shot by corrosive bile.


Are people going Ultra/Hydra? o.O

ultra hydra swarmhost is great vs mech
Progamer
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
June 19 2015 06:56 GMT
#58
I'm not balance whining or anything....

but do we really need another buff to the medivac?
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
Noonius
Profile Joined April 2012
Estonia17413 Posts
June 19 2015 07:03 GMT
#59
that ghost ability is pretty useless. Haven't they realized that channeling abilities on enemies just don't work
Terran forever | Maru hater forever
zergtat
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Hong Kong853 Posts
June 19 2015 07:04 GMT
#60
individual ovie drop is for team game island early expend......... LOL
Z: SEn P: White-Ra T: Polt
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23576 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-19 07:09:20
June 19 2015 07:08 GMT
#61
Ghost ability looks stupid, but the overlord drop change will be crazy. We'll see crazy stuff since you don't need a lair. If you would need Lair it would just be a straight up nerf of course. And medivacs are already good enough at dropping, that change doesn't make sense.
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
Pursuit_
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States1330 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-19 07:29:35
June 19 2015 07:11 GMT
#62
On June 19 2015 15:56 SC2John wrote:
I'm not balance whining or anything....

but do we really need another buff to the medivac?


No, it's already (in my opinion) the most broken unit in the game. If you split the Medivac into 2 units, the Medic and the Dropship, we'd still make both of them.
In Somnis Veritas
CptMarvel
Profile Joined May 2014
France236 Posts
June 19 2015 07:11 GMT
#63
The new ghost ability is totally band-aidy and adds strictly nothing to unit interactions. Why won't they just tweak snipe?
tar
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany991 Posts
June 19 2015 07:18 GMT
#64
On June 19 2015 14:55 chipmonklord17 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 14:41 pure.Wasted wrote:
On June 19 2015 14:32 chipmonklord17 wrote:
On June 19 2015 14:29 pure.Wasted wrote:
On June 19 2015 14:25 chipmonklord17 wrote:Zerg's aren't MEANT for small drops (aside from the previously mentioned baneling drops which honestly suck compared to their widow mine or general warpprism equivalents). The entire Zerg style and game play is based around masses and swarming. Small drops with Zerg are just not as good as the other races because of how the race's units are designed compared to Protoss and Terran. That's not a problem or imbalanced that's just how it is, Zerg is meant to swarm. Including an upgrade that promotes small dropping is counter-intuitive to the entirety of Zerg's game play. And if you're talking about doom dropping as Zerg then upgrading overlords individually becomes non cost efficient and defeats the entire purpose of the upgrade in the first place, as at that point you should use invincible nydus worms.


Zerg perform runbys all the time with a handful of Lings/Banes, and there's nothing "non-Zergy" about it despite the fact that it's not 200 supply worth of units. How is dropping one OL's worth of units any different from that?



Because a zergling runby can have as many zerglings as you want but the single overlord has a limit in capacity? For reference imagine a roach runby that is 4 roaches (that IS how many fit in an overlord right? I forget if its 4 or 6 but honestly its virtually the same thing). That does next to nothing, just as a roach drop would do.


That's why I very cleverly focused on Lings and Banes in my post. Roaches don't runby, they free up supply in the general vicinity of enemy workers.

The point is runbys are not anti-Zerg, so dropping units for a runby isn't anti-Zerg, either, contrary to what you were trying to establish. The only question that matters is that of efficiency. How many Lings does Life use for a typical runby? If it's less than 50, then upgrading OLs individually will be significantly cheaper, faster, and more convenient than bogging down a Hatchery to research Ventral Sacs.


Ah yes the infamous 6 zergling run by. Run by's aren't anti zerg because they have more units than you can fit in a overlord. Although I've never counted I'd be inclined to say that Life uses more zerglings most run bys than you can fit in an overlord, and that he does more than 8 overlord's worth of lings in runbys.

Yes there are definitely going to be a few situations where this upgrade MIGHT be cheaper than the global upgrade but that sounds absurdly few and far between. Now if overlords had some "battle evolution" passive that after 8 overlords transforming then they all "evolve" into being able to drop that might make more sense. But as it stands it just seems like they've found a great theory that has no actual place in reality.

I actually took the time to look for a Life game to see if this was in fact the case.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/oSQoyfI-DfI

Life does 2 runbys in this game. One of 16 lings, that does virtually nothing. Kills a few marines and forces 4 -6 hellions to come home. And one with over 50 units of ling/bane. The second attack alone makes the overlord upgrade in this case not cost efficient completely ignoring the first counterattack, that even with 2 and change overlords worth of units does virtually nothing. Small drops just aren't Zerg. Not to mention that I can't personally think of a situation where you'd want to small drop instead of run by because of the difference in overlord drop time one at a time versus a group of lings just running to whatever location

Perhaps it becomes a way for zerg to get around forcefields in really niche situations but at that point you're just risking them targeting down the overlords and either supply blocking you or killing the units inside or both


well, with regard to ZvP, the new drop thing enables the Zerg to bypass the 1 cannon 1 sentry wall-off, which atm stops unlimited amounts of lings, while the rest of the toss army is walking around the map. 16 speedlings in an undefended toss base can be quite devastating and should force a recall at least.
whoever I pick for my anti team turns gosu
Pursuit_
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States1330 Posts
June 19 2015 07:27 GMT
#65
On June 19 2015 16:18 tar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 14:55 chipmonklord17 wrote:
On June 19 2015 14:41 pure.Wasted wrote:
On June 19 2015 14:32 chipmonklord17 wrote:
On June 19 2015 14:29 pure.Wasted wrote:
On June 19 2015 14:25 chipmonklord17 wrote:Zerg's aren't MEANT for small drops (aside from the previously mentioned baneling drops which honestly suck compared to their widow mine or general warpprism equivalents). The entire Zerg style and game play is based around masses and swarming. Small drops with Zerg are just not as good as the other races because of how the race's units are designed compared to Protoss and Terran. That's not a problem or imbalanced that's just how it is, Zerg is meant to swarm. Including an upgrade that promotes small dropping is counter-intuitive to the entirety of Zerg's game play. And if you're talking about doom dropping as Zerg then upgrading overlords individually becomes non cost efficient and defeats the entire purpose of the upgrade in the first place, as at that point you should use invincible nydus worms.


Zerg perform runbys all the time with a handful of Lings/Banes, and there's nothing "non-Zergy" about it despite the fact that it's not 200 supply worth of units. How is dropping one OL's worth of units any different from that?



Because a zergling runby can have as many zerglings as you want but the single overlord has a limit in capacity? For reference imagine a roach runby that is 4 roaches (that IS how many fit in an overlord right? I forget if its 4 or 6 but honestly its virtually the same thing). That does next to nothing, just as a roach drop would do.


That's why I very cleverly focused on Lings and Banes in my post. Roaches don't runby, they free up supply in the general vicinity of enemy workers.

The point is runbys are not anti-Zerg, so dropping units for a runby isn't anti-Zerg, either, contrary to what you were trying to establish. The only question that matters is that of efficiency. How many Lings does Life use for a typical runby? If it's less than 50, then upgrading OLs individually will be significantly cheaper, faster, and more convenient than bogging down a Hatchery to research Ventral Sacs.


Ah yes the infamous 6 zergling run by. Run by's aren't anti zerg because they have more units than you can fit in a overlord. Although I've never counted I'd be inclined to say that Life uses more zerglings most run bys than you can fit in an overlord, and that he does more than 8 overlord's worth of lings in runbys.

Yes there are definitely going to be a few situations where this upgrade MIGHT be cheaper than the global upgrade but that sounds absurdly few and far between. Now if overlords had some "battle evolution" passive that after 8 overlords transforming then they all "evolve" into being able to drop that might make more sense. But as it stands it just seems like they've found a great theory that has no actual place in reality.

I actually took the time to look for a Life game to see if this was in fact the case.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/oSQoyfI-DfI

Life does 2 runbys in this game. One of 16 lings, that does virtually nothing. Kills a few marines and forces 4 -6 hellions to come home. And one with over 50 units of ling/bane. The second attack alone makes the overlord upgrade in this case not cost efficient completely ignoring the first counterattack, that even with 2 and change overlords worth of units does virtually nothing. Small drops just aren't Zerg. Not to mention that I can't personally think of a situation where you'd want to small drop instead of run by because of the difference in overlord drop time one at a time versus a group of lings just running to whatever location

Perhaps it becomes a way for zerg to get around forcefields in really niche situations but at that point you're just risking them targeting down the overlords and either supply blocking you or killing the units inside or both


well, with regard to ZvP, the new drop thing enables the Zerg to bypass the 1 cannon 1 sentry wall-off, which atm stops unlimited amounts of lings, while the rest of the toss army is walking around the map. 16 speedlings in an undefended toss base can be quite devastating and should force a recall at least.


Yeah, this was my first thought too, this kind of play seems extremely powerful vs protoss when they only have 1-3 units from the gateway still. Especially the potential for a follow-up to an early game attack too, perhaps as a follow up to a 14/14 opening. It adds a lot of potential for early Zerg aggression to have more chances to do damage even after a wall goes up for very little cost.

50/50 for a 8 roach / 16 ling elevator into the main could be insanely powerful vs Terran or Protoss going for a macro build, too.
In Somnis Veritas
Ramiz1989
Profile Joined July 2012
12124 Posts
June 19 2015 07:28 GMT
#66
On June 19 2015 15:56 SC2John wrote:
I'm not balance whining or anything....

but do we really need another buff to the medivac?

No we don't lol. There are a lot more important things in the game that need to be fixed/balanced/changed and Medivacs being one of the most used Terran units certainly isn't one of them and they keep buffing it, lol...
"I've been to hell and back, and back to hell…and back. This time, I've brought Hell back with me."
Ej_
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
47656 Posts
June 19 2015 07:30 GMT
#67
Lurker slow drop, here I come
"Technically the dictionary has zero authority on the meaning or words" - Rodya
Pandemona *
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Charlie Sheens House51484 Posts
June 19 2015 07:34 GMT
#68
Wow the ghost update is pretty much counter to Ultra? So ghosts > ultra again just like WoL?
MVP return incoming?
ModeratorTeam Liquid Football Thread Guru! - Chelsea FC ♥
digmouse
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
China6329 Posts
June 19 2015 07:42 GMT
#69
The Ghost change is utterly pointless and is as band-aid as it can be.
TranslatorIf you want to ask anything about Chinese esports, send me a PM or follow me @nerddigmouse.
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9377 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-19 07:42:53
June 19 2015 07:42 GMT
#70
On June 19 2015 10:23 NyxNax wrote:
Didnt they say last patch the ravager was too weak so they made it armored and now they just removed the armored but did nothing else? I could be remembering this incorrectly or confusing it with something else


No they are removing the armored tag so it doesn't take extra damage from Immortals and Maurauders. This means that the counters to the Roach are not the same as the counter to the Ravager.
Pandemona *
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Charlie Sheens House51484 Posts
June 19 2015 07:43 GMT
#71
It makes Terran able to beat Ultra by the looks of it too me, negates the armor upgrade they got pretty much. Cast drone on ultra rest of bio + ghosts then clean up

#DREAMBOIIS
ModeratorTeam Liquid Football Thread Guru! - Chelsea FC ♥
J. Corsair
Profile Joined June 2014
United States470 Posts
June 19 2015 07:55 GMT
#72
I like all the changes except the ghost-band aid change.
“...it is human nature, I suppose, to be futile and ridiculous.” - Scaramouche
imre
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
France9263 Posts
June 19 2015 07:57 GMT
#73
On June 19 2015 15:56 SC2John wrote:
I'm not balance whining or anything....

but do we really need another buff to the medivac?


their approach to bio since hots has been getting a broken unit that makes everything work. They're just pushing it further in lotv.
Zest fanboy.
Plantarbre
Profile Joined July 2014
France45 Posts
June 19 2015 08:06 GMT
#74
I think the overlord drop should use the OV speed, 7roach rush will be auto-win otherwise.
Jj_82
Profile Joined December 2012
Swaziland419 Posts
June 19 2015 08:07 GMT
#75
Why would anybody remove snipe??? Blizz plz...
Once rode a waterslide with PartinG and TaeJa ✌
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23576 Posts
June 19 2015 08:09 GMT
#76
On June 19 2015 16:43 Pandemona wrote:
It makes Terran able to beat Ultra by the looks of it too me, negates the armor upgrade they got pretty much. Cast drone on ultra rest of bio + ghosts then clean up

#DREAMBOIIS


Yeah and that's why it's stupid, they put in a new skill that's purely designed to enable bio to beat a single unit (Ultra) for which they made a poor decision earlier on. Give Ghosts something cool like lockdown and reduce the armor upgrade for Ultras from +4 to +3 or reverse the marauder nerf instead. It would be way better than this fix, which tries to circumvent the real problem.
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
jotmang-nojem
Profile Joined May 2015
39 Posts
June 19 2015 08:09 GMT
#77
Starcraft2 == Dropcraft

They keep encouraging the #1 thing that makes SC2 shit by making it more powerful. Now zerg can pull the same shit that terrans do. loldrop pickup loldrop pickup and when your opponent is out of position attack the front.

Also, say goodbye to mech. Just loldrop left and right. Instead of units being out on the map executing strategy, they're holed up around the base defending against MMMM and now overlords, disruptor drops. They should get it over with and rename the game Dropcraft.
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
June 19 2015 08:19 GMT
#78
How long does the transformation for overlords last? If it's along the lines of other morphs it should be okay, but if it's near-instant that opens up room for abuse. Imagine that any hellion or zergling run-by can be nullified by instantly transforming an overlord to carry the drones.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
FrostedMiniWheats
Profile Joined August 2010
United States30730 Posts
June 19 2015 08:23 GMT
#79
On June 19 2015 17:19 Grumbels wrote:
How long does the transformation for overlords last? If it's along the lines of other morphs it should be okay, but if it's near-instant that opens up room for abuse. Imagine that any hellion or zergling run-by can be nullified by instantly transforming an overlord to carry the drones.


12 seconds
NesTea | Mvp | MC | Leenock | Losira | Gumiho | DRG | Taeja | Jinro | Stephano | Thorzain | Sen | Idra |Polt | Bomber | Symbol | Squirtle | Fantasy | Jaedong | Maru | sOs | Seed | ByuN | ByuL | Neeb| Scarlett | Rogue | IM forever
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-19 08:24:58
June 19 2015 08:24 GMT
#80
The individual overlord upgrade is a good idea but it seems too great a sacrifice to lose global upgrade for Zerg :/.
Dekalinder
Profile Joined December 2012
Italy166 Posts
June 19 2015 08:25 GMT
#81
How about they bring back the reaper granade as an active ability
Melta Bomb: deal 40 damage to target Massive unit and decrease their amor by 3 CD 40 sec
Agh
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States970 Posts
June 19 2015 08:37 GMT
#82
I highly doubt the overlord change will stay on hatch tech.

nydus already adds an extreme amount of volatility, not sure why they decided to overlap that.

If anything drop needed decreased research time or cost, not this change.
I may appear to be an emotionless sarcastic pos, but just like an onion when you pull off more and more layers you find the exact same thing everytime and you start crying
TheBloodyDwarf
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
Finland7524 Posts
June 19 2015 08:46 GMT
#83
2 minute island expansion GG
Fusilero: "I still can't believe he did that, like dude what the fuck there's fandom and then there's what he did like holy shit. I still see it when I close my eyes." <- reaction to the original drunk santa post which later caught on
Qwyn
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2779 Posts
June 19 2015 08:50 GMT
#84
This round of testing is going to be very, VERY Zerg favored, me thinks .
"Think of the hysteria following the realization that they consciously consume babies and raise the dead people from their graves" - N0
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-19 09:01:47
June 19 2015 08:52 GMT
#85
On June 19 2015 17:23 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 17:19 Grumbels wrote:
How long does the transformation for overlords last? If it's along the lines of other morphs it should be okay, but if it's near-instant that opens up room for abuse. Imagine that any hellion or zergling run-by can be nullified by instantly transforming an overlord to carry the drones.


12 seconds

That's in real-time I presume?


On June 19 2015 12:38 Uvantak wrote:
Apparently Sniper Rounds from the ghost have been removed to "make space" for the new ability.

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


On Reddit

Regarding snipe, this is unrelated to the discussion here and not feasible in Starcraft 2, but I figured it might be interesting if besides massive units there was also a class of small units that would include the zergling, broodling and maybe the marine. Buildings would be able to land on top of small units, they would be vulnerable to knock-back effects from many abilities and snipe could be turned into a skill-shot that would ignore small units and only damage the first unit it hits (though it would require a redesign to make it more expensive and it wouldn't work well with smartcast, so in practice it's not a good idea).
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-19 09:01:23
June 19 2015 09:01 GMT
#86
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
blooblooblahblah
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia4163 Posts
June 19 2015 09:29 GMT
#87
I'm just imagining zergs going 14/14 and then upgrading their first scouting overlord to drop lings in a Protoss base. That one cannon and sentry at your natural isn't gonna be too helpful.
Ganzi beat me without stim. Ostojiy beat me with a nydus. Siphonn beat me with probes. Revival beat my sentry-immortal all-in.
SC2Toastie
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
Netherlands5725 Posts
June 19 2015 09:29 GMT
#88
25/25 Overlord drops?

Hello Zerg Cheese ^_^
Mura Ma Man, Dark Da Dude, Super Shot Sos!
shin_toss
Profile Joined May 2010
Philippines2589 Posts
June 19 2015 09:31 GMT
#89
is there a visual distinction bet normal overlords and the one upgraded?
AKMU / IU
Sapphire.lux
Profile Joined July 2010
Romania2620 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-19 10:04:22
June 19 2015 09:53 GMT
#90
The Ghost ability is a gimmick with the sole role of helping bio against Ultras. Never seen a more specialized ability. When you have to create a new ability, to deal with one aspect, of only one unit, when using one specific unit comp., you know there's something wrong there!

The Liberator does not have to be a flying siege tank. Just fix the Tank please!

The Medivac does not need more buffs. It's already arguably Terrans strongest unit. Fix what's broken or underperforming and stop buffing already strong units to compensate. Medivac are fun but should not be the be all end all of Terran! No one is impressed by drop play any more so stop trying to make Terran the Medivac+friends race.
Head Coach Park: "They should buff tanks!"
Daralii
Profile Joined March 2010
United States16991 Posts
June 19 2015 09:58 GMT
#91
The ghost change seems impressively stupid. It's a PDD with 80 health that shoots corruption, regarded as one of the most bland abilities in the game and something Blizzard has been attempting to get rid of since 2.0. Instead of unnerfing snipe to some degree, they removed it in favor of something that's both boring AND terrible.
Fear is freedom! Subjugation is liberation! Contradiction is truth!
Weavel
Profile Joined January 2010
Finland9221 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-19 10:01:26
June 19 2015 10:00 GMT
#92
Removing snipe for that useless ability...

edit. And holy crap that ability is so boring. Flying pdd with red beam? So uninspired.
Life/Seed//Mvp/NaNiwa fighting! ZeNEX forever!
JCoto
Profile Joined October 2014
Spain574 Posts
June 19 2015 10:18 GMT
#93
On June 19 2015 18:53 Sapphire.lux wrote:
The Ghost ability is a gimmick with the sole role of helping bio against Ultras. Never seen a more specialized ability. When you have to create a new ability, to deal with one aspect, of only one unit, when using one specific unit comp., you know there's something wrong there!

The Liberator does not have to be a flying siege tank. Just fix the Tank please!

The Medivac does not need more buffs. It's already arguably Terrans strongest unit. Fix what's broken or underperforming and stop buffing already strong units to compensate. Medivac are fun but should not be the be all end all of Terran! No one is impressed by drop play any more so stop trying to make Terran the Medivac+friends race.


That's false, that kind of spell helps any burst damage units, specially units with double projectile (Hellions, banshees, Vikings, Cyclones, BC's) against big units.

It will empower Bio but also that Mech units. The problem I see is that it will turn almost any capital unit into shit, and specially heavy Protoss units (Achons, Immortals, Skytoss) that are already shitty vs a Terran with enough ghosts.
Sapphire.lux
Profile Joined July 2010
Romania2620 Posts
June 19 2015 10:27 GMT
#94
WTF they actually removed snipe for that one dimensional ability? Not that Snipe was used all the time but it made HT Ghost interactions very fun to spectate.
Head Coach Park: "They should buff tanks!"
RoomOfMush
Profile Joined March 2015
1296 Posts
June 19 2015 10:29 GMT
#95
On June 19 2015 19:18 JCoto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 18:53 Sapphire.lux wrote:
The Ghost ability is a gimmick with the sole role of helping bio against Ultras. Never seen a more specialized ability. When you have to create a new ability, to deal with one aspect, of only one unit, when using one specific unit comp., you know there's something wrong there!

The Liberator does not have to be a flying siege tank. Just fix the Tank please!

The Medivac does not need more buffs. It's already arguably Terrans strongest unit. Fix what's broken or underperforming and stop buffing already strong units to compensate. Medivac are fun but should not be the be all end all of Terran! No one is impressed by drop play any more so stop trying to make Terran the Medivac+friends race.


That's false, that kind of spell helps any burst damage units, specially units with double projectile (Hellions, banshees, Vikings, Cyclones, BC's) against big units.

It will empower Bio but also that Mech units. The problem I see is that it will turn almost any capital unit into shit, and specially heavy Protoss units (Achons, Immortals, Skytoss) that are already shitty vs a Terran with enough ghosts.

Does the drone reduce shield armor as well as life armor? Because if not it will be completely useless against archons (if it doesnt reduce armor below 0 it will be useless against archons no matter what) and most other protoss units will also not be too badly affected.
Sapphire.lux
Profile Joined July 2010
Romania2620 Posts
June 19 2015 10:32 GMT
#96
On June 19 2015 19:18 JCoto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 18:53 Sapphire.lux wrote:
The Ghost ability is a gimmick with the sole role of helping bio against Ultras. Never seen a more specialized ability. When you have to create a new ability, to deal with one aspect, of only one unit, when using one specific unit comp., you know there's something wrong there!

The Liberator does not have to be a flying siege tank. Just fix the Tank please!

The Medivac does not need more buffs. It's already arguably Terrans strongest unit. Fix what's broken or underperforming and stop buffing already strong units to compensate. Medivac are fun but should not be the be all end all of Terran! No one is impressed by drop play any more so stop trying to make Terran the Medivac+friends race.


That's false, that kind of spell helps any burst damage units, specially units with double projectile (Hellions, banshees, Vikings, Cyclones, BC's) against big units.

It will empower Bio but also that Mech units. The problem I see is that it will turn almost any capital unit into shit, and specially heavy Protoss units (Achons, Immortals, Skytoss) that are already shitty vs a Terran with enough ghosts.

I think your theorycrafting is wrong in this case, as it is most of the time. You build a bunch of expensive Ghost with mech to reduce the armor of a couple of units? You make Ghosts to reduce the armor on a few Zelots to help Hellions?

It's an anti Ultra gimmick for bio, nothing more.
Head Coach Park: "They should buff tanks!"
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
Netherlands30548 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-19 11:00:37
June 19 2015 10:50 GMT
#97
I hate the medivac buff. Especially with the constant forced expanding being able drop even quicker is just gonna be annoying and abusable.

Just tried the ghost ability, it seems very crappy. I thought it was a drone that sticks to a unit like a quadrocopter chasing it (so you can basically 'curse' a unit. Like weavers ability in dota in which you have to actively target the parasite thats nibbling you) and that seemed very cool to me but it's just a stationary drone and it gets autotargeted very easilty. It also doesn't do negative armor so your target has to have at least 3 if it's to be useful. It's the saddest thing ever

Why did they remove snipe for that -_-. Just unnerf snipe a bit you've had years to do that. Not a single iteration to improve it. Meh. Ghost do feel very fast with the movespeed buff though.
Neosteel Enthusiast
Ranari
Profile Joined January 2014
19 Posts
June 19 2015 11:04 GMT
#98
When I think Anti-Armor Drones, I think Raven ability. NOT something a Ghost would deploy.

1. Keeping Ghosts mobile enough to hang with the BIO armies = Good
2. The idea of Ghosts pooping mechanical drones = Bad

Solution? I don't know, but this current solution doesn't fit. Is it such a bad thing to have to tech into a more mech path to counter Ultras?
ejozl
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark3380 Posts
June 19 2015 11:15 GMT
#99
Drone works on buildings, which is interesting.
SC2 Archon needs "Terrible, terrible damage" as one of it's quotes.
CptMarvel
Profile Joined May 2014
France236 Posts
June 19 2015 11:49 GMT
#100
On June 19 2015 19:50 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
I hate the medivac buff. Especially with the constant forced expanding being able drop even quicker is just gonna be annoying and abusable.

Just tried the ghost ability, it seems very crappy. I thought it was a drone that sticks to a unit like a quadrocopter chasing it (so you can basically 'curse' a unit. Like weavers ability in dota in which you have to actively target the parasite thats nibbling you) and that seemed very cool to me but it's just a stationary drone and it gets autotargeted very easilty. It also doesn't do negative armor so your target has to have at least 3 if it's to be useful. It's the saddest thing ever

Why did they remove snipe for that -_-. Just unnerf snipe a bit you've had years to do that. Not a single iteration to improve it. Meh. Ghost do feel very fast with the movespeed buff though.


What do you mean stationary? It doesn't follow a moving target?
Are you sure it doesn't do negative armor?
ejozl
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark3380 Posts
June 19 2015 11:52 GMT
#101
On June 19 2015 20:49 CptMarvel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 19:50 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
I hate the medivac buff. Especially with the constant forced expanding being able drop even quicker is just gonna be annoying and abusable.

Just tried the ghost ability, it seems very crappy. I thought it was a drone that sticks to a unit like a quadrocopter chasing it (so you can basically 'curse' a unit. Like weavers ability in dota in which you have to actively target the parasite thats nibbling you) and that seemed very cool to me but it's just a stationary drone and it gets autotargeted very easilty. It also doesn't do negative armor so your target has to have at least 3 if it's to be useful. It's the saddest thing ever

Why did they remove snipe for that -_-. Just unnerf snipe a bit you've had years to do that. Not a single iteration to improve it. Meh. Ghost do feel very fast with the movespeed buff though.


What do you mean stationary? It doesn't follow a moving target?
Are you sure it doesn't do negative armor?

It's placed like Point Defense Drone, the target can run out of range of it and armour doesn't go negative.
SC2 Archon needs "Terrible, terrible damage" as one of it's quotes.
TheWinks
Profile Joined July 2011
United States572 Posts
June 19 2015 12:01 GMT
#102
On June 19 2015 20:52 ejozl wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 20:49 CptMarvel wrote:
On June 19 2015 19:50 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
I hate the medivac buff. Especially with the constant forced expanding being able drop even quicker is just gonna be annoying and abusable.

Just tried the ghost ability, it seems very crappy. I thought it was a drone that sticks to a unit like a quadrocopter chasing it (so you can basically 'curse' a unit. Like weavers ability in dota in which you have to actively target the parasite thats nibbling you) and that seemed very cool to me but it's just a stationary drone and it gets autotargeted very easilty. It also doesn't do negative armor so your target has to have at least 3 if it's to be useful. It's the saddest thing ever

Why did they remove snipe for that -_-. Just unnerf snipe a bit you've had years to do that. Not a single iteration to improve it. Meh. Ghost do feel very fast with the movespeed buff though.


What do you mean stationary? It doesn't follow a moving target?
Are you sure it doesn't do negative armor?

It's placed like Point Defense Drone, the target can run out of range of it and armour doesn't go negative.

Except you place pdd on a spot. You place the ability on an enemy unit.
ZergLingShepherd1
Profile Joined June 2015
404 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-19 12:23:29
June 19 2015 12:10 GMT
#103
Pros:

- Love the Ovi drops but really we should buff the speed, on huge maps Ovi doesnt even get to scout anymore.
- Great Spore Crawler change, tho i would like 30 flat damage since Zerg AA is really weak
- I like the ghost ability mostly because, this will end the MMM era in late game , finally they will get a tier 3 bio unit vs a tier 3 zerg unit, then just spam more tier 1 units all game long.
- Viper's nerf is perfect, but seriously either reduce the price a bit or the supply cuz 3 is huge.

Cons:

Medivacs right now are way to OP, Protoss really has no answer now and Zerg will struggle even more.
Ravagers are still useless and i would like for them to remove this unit and just add as upgrade the corrosive bille to Roaches, give Zerg a core unit that its really a need, more AA is a must !
"The Fractured but Whole"
rockslave
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Brazil318 Posts
June 19 2015 12:54 GMT
#104
The overlord change is huge! Hello speedling elevator!
What qxc said.
ZergLingShepherd1
Profile Joined June 2015
404 Posts
June 19 2015 13:01 GMT
#105
On June 19 2015 21:54 rockslave wrote:
The overlord change is huge! Hello speedling elevator!


Its a start, Ovi needs speed cuz its so slow.
On big maps this change is going to be useless if we dont get a speed boost.
"The Fractured but Whole"
CptMarvel
Profile Joined May 2014
France236 Posts
June 19 2015 13:15 GMT
#106
On June 19 2015 20:52 ejozl wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 20:49 CptMarvel wrote:
On June 19 2015 19:50 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
I hate the medivac buff. Especially with the constant forced expanding being able drop even quicker is just gonna be annoying and abusable.

Just tried the ghost ability, it seems very crappy. I thought it was a drone that sticks to a unit like a quadrocopter chasing it (so you can basically 'curse' a unit. Like weavers ability in dota in which you have to actively target the parasite thats nibbling you) and that seemed very cool to me but it's just a stationary drone and it gets autotargeted very easilty. It also doesn't do negative armor so your target has to have at least 3 if it's to be useful. It's the saddest thing ever

Why did they remove snipe for that -_-. Just unnerf snipe a bit you've had years to do that. Not a single iteration to improve it. Meh. Ghost do feel very fast with the movespeed buff though.


What do you mean stationary? It doesn't follow a moving target?
Are you sure it doesn't do negative armor?

It's placed like Point Defense Drone, the target can run out of range of it and armour doesn't go negative.


Well then, it's officially complete and utter crap
rockslave
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Brazil318 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-19 13:18:04
June 19 2015 13:17 GMT
#107
On June 19 2015 22:01 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 21:54 rockslave wrote:
The overlord change is huge! Hello speedling elevator!


Its a start, Ovi needs speed cuz its so slow.
On big maps this change is going to be useless if we dont get a speed boost.


Well, Penumatized Carapace is Hatch tech. It doesn't seem too expensive, but you'll need two gas or something.

And I was originally thinking about using the first or second (slow) overlord, on 2 player maps. Will test it soon.
What qxc said.
Lexender
Profile Joined September 2013
Mexico2647 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-19 13:23:40
June 19 2015 13:22 GMT
#108
On June 19 2015 19:18 JCoto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 18:53 Sapphire.lux wrote:
The Ghost ability is a gimmick with the sole role of helping bio against Ultras. Never seen a more specialized ability. When you have to create a new ability, to deal with one aspect, of only one unit, when using one specific unit comp., you know there's something wrong there!

The Liberator does not have to be a flying siege tank. Just fix the Tank please!

The Medivac does not need more buffs. It's already arguably Terrans strongest unit. Fix what's broken or underperforming and stop buffing already strong units to compensate. Medivac are fun but should not be the be all end all of Terran! No one is impressed by drop play any more so stop trying to make Terran the Medivac+friends race.


That's false, that kind of spell helps any burst damage units, specially units with double projectile (Hellions, banshees, Vikings, Cyclones, BC's) against big units.

It will empower Bio but also that Mech units. The problem I see is that it will turn almost any capital unit into shit, and specially heavy Protoss units (Achons, Immortals, Skytoss) that are already shitty vs a Terran with enough ghosts.


Lowering 3 armor barely makes a difference with mech because most units deal high damage but have low DPS, it would only give tanks a about 8% more damage where it will give marines 50% more damage.

Even the units you mention don't get that high a boost that makes the spell really worth it over more siege tanks or cyclones.

So yeah its made as a 1 aspect ability made to work with 1 composition.

Also I wonder if they plan to make overlord drops different in any way, I think they will be giving drops extra speed but only available at higher tech in a next patch.
Gwavajuice
Profile Joined June 2014
France1810 Posts
June 19 2015 13:28 GMT
#109
People just can't help theorycrafting, proposing ideas and giving opinions when all they should do really is to just test the f of every new concept so that in the end the final product is optimized.


At least you guys shoud try to provide replays with the new changes in action to proove your points :|
Dear INno and all the former STX boys.
ZergLingShepherd1
Profile Joined June 2015
404 Posts
June 19 2015 13:33 GMT
#110
On June 19 2015 22:17 rockslave wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 22:01 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
On June 19 2015 21:54 rockslave wrote:
The overlord change is huge! Hello speedling elevator!


Its a start, Ovi needs speed cuz its so slow.
On big maps this change is going to be useless if we dont get a speed boost.


Well, Penumatized Carapace is Hatch tech. It doesn't seem too expensive, but you'll need two gas or something.

And I was originally thinking about using the first or second (slow) overlord, on 2 player maps. Will test it soon.


For discussion's sake, here's some movement speeds to compare:

Overlord: 0.586
Thor: 1.875
Upgraded overlord: 1.88
Marine/hydralisk/roach/zealot (no upgrades, off creep): 2.25
Medivac: 2.5
Slow warp prism: 2.953
Upgraded warp prism: 3.375
Boosted medivac: 4.25

Overlords, even with the upgrade, are still really, really slow.
"The Fractured but Whole"
SetGuitarsToKill
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
Canada28396 Posts
June 19 2015 13:34 GMT
#111
So one thing that a lot of people might not agree with, but I actually really like that Snipe is gone. Obviously this stupid drone thing isn't a good replacement, but Snipe was really really REALLLY boring to begin with and I'm glad they're working it out of the game.
Community News"As long as you have a warp prism you can't be bad at harassment" - Maru | @SetGuitars2Kill
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
Netherlands30548 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-19 13:41:14
June 19 2015 13:39 GMT
#112
On June 19 2015 20:49 CptMarvel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 19:50 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
I hate the medivac buff. Especially with the constant forced expanding being able drop even quicker is just gonna be annoying and abusable.

Just tried the ghost ability, it seems very crappy. I thought it was a drone that sticks to a unit like a quadrocopter chasing it (so you can basically 'curse' a unit. Like weavers ability in dota in which you have to actively target the parasite thats nibbling you) and that seemed very cool to me but it's just a stationary drone and it gets autotargeted very easilty. It also doesn't do negative armor so your target has to have at least 3 if it's to be useful. It's the saddest thing ever

Why did they remove snipe for that -_-. Just unnerf snipe a bit you've had years to do that. Not a single iteration to improve it. Meh. Ghost do feel very fast with the movespeed buff though.


What do you mean stationary? It doesn't follow a moving target?
Are you sure it doesn't do negative armor?

Yes it doesnt do negative armor. If you cast it on cyclone it will have 1 armor (-1) so effectively 0 and not -2. If you cast it on a marine it doesn't even spawn as it would do nothing.

(this is with 0 additional armor upgrades )
Neosteel Enthusiast
y0su
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Finland7871 Posts
June 19 2015 13:46 GMT
#113
On June 19 2015 22:34 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
So one thing that a lot of people might not agree with, but I actually really like that Snipe is gone. Obviously this stupid drone thing isn't a good replacement, but Snipe was really really REALLLY boring to begin with and I'm glad they're working it out of the game.

It was better than feedback
LOLingBuddha
Profile Joined February 2011
Netherlands697 Posts
June 19 2015 13:49 GMT
#114
im incredibly sad, the more this goes on the more i have thoughts of switching race, or not even bothering
Sapphire.lux
Profile Joined July 2010
Romania2620 Posts
June 19 2015 14:22 GMT
#115
With Snipe gone, will HTs not dominate Ghosts? Design and direction aside, there might be some serious balance problems here. Just speculating though. Maybe it's time to reintroduce the 100% mana depletion from EMP.
Head Coach Park: "They should buff tanks!"
Lexender
Profile Joined September 2013
Mexico2647 Posts
June 19 2015 14:23 GMT
#116
On June 19 2015 22:28 Gwavajuice wrote:
People just can't help theorycrafting, proposing ideas and giving opinions when all they should do really is to just test the f of every new concept so that in the end the final product is optimized.


At least you guys shoud try to provide replays with the new changes in action to proove your points :|


Hard to do when patch isn't live yet.
Tyrhanius
Profile Joined April 2011
France947 Posts
June 19 2015 14:37 GMT
#117
Lol the drop is freaking strong. You can drop baneling so early, you can just 12 pool, and pass wall with even slow ovie.
It's so funny, but i don't see it not nerfed soon...
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
Netherlands30548 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-19 14:50:54
June 19 2015 14:38 GMT
#118
Made a gfycat/gif of the drone in action. It's stationary, and you see the overseer fly out of range and then the -armor buff dissapears. Also note it's only -1 so no negative armor. It lasts 11 seconds cost 50 energy. They do change targets. I casted them on some roaches and after those died it retargeted to the overseer.

http://gfycat.com/TameCanineBufflehead

Due to the retargeting and low energy cost it might actually be useful to blanket spam them in a big fight with a few ghosts in the lategame when everything has +3. Does require individual unit targeting to cast them though so it's not easy.
Neosteel Enthusiast
Foxxan
Profile Joined October 2004
Sweden3427 Posts
June 19 2015 15:01 GMT
#119
Really like the overlord change. As long as every race has good firepower in the early game so its not about high tech etc i think it could work out great.

What i absolutely like about it is the potential for zerg to be agressive from the early game and not in an all-in or cheese way
Foxxan
Profile Joined October 2004
Sweden3427 Posts
June 19 2015 15:06 GMT
#120
On June 19 2015 23:22 Sapphire.lux wrote:
With Snipe gone, will HTs not dominate Ghosts? Design and direction aside, there might be some serious balance problems here. Just speculating though. Maybe it's time to reintroduce the 100% mana depletion from EMP.

They should go away from the ghost vs hightemplar fight 100%. When the armee all relie on those few spellcasters it becomes quite boring to watch and play.
owlman
Profile Joined August 2009
France58 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-19 15:21:59
June 19 2015 15:20 GMT
#121
Snipe is not mandatory vs HT, EMP is enough.
Drone looks good with the retargeting
JCoto
Profile Joined October 2014
Spain574 Posts
June 19 2015 15:31 GMT
#122
On June 20 2015 00:01 Foxxan wrote:
Really like the overlord change. As long as every race has good firepower in the early game so its not about high tech etc i think it could work out great.

What i absolutely like about it is the potential for zerg to be agressive from the early game and not in an all-in or cheese way


That is the problem, only 2/3 races have enough firepower eary game.

Protoss will have serious problems as the current design of Adepts is very poor and subject to change, even if it is working quite acceptably at least early game, reaching the bordelrine of problematic.

We still have Photon Overcharge into the game and no efficient production till Warpgate
Daralii
Profile Joined March 2010
United States16991 Posts
June 19 2015 15:33 GMT
#123
On June 20 2015 00:31 JCoto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 20 2015 00:01 Foxxan wrote:
Really like the overlord change. As long as every race has good firepower in the early game so its not about high tech etc i think it could work out great.

What i absolutely like about it is the potential for zerg to be agressive from the early game and not in an all-in or cheese way


That is the problem, only 2/3 races have enough firepower eary game.

Protoss will have serious problems as the current design of Adepts is very poor and subject to change, even if it is working quite acceptably at least early game, reaching the bordelrine of problematic.

We still have Photon Overcharge into the game and no efficient production till Warpgate

Such is the cost of warp gate.
Fear is freedom! Subjugation is liberation! Contradiction is truth!
Cazimirbzh
Profile Joined February 2014
334 Posts
June 19 2015 15:45 GMT
#124
New upgrade: reduces unit unload delay from 1 sec to 0.5 sec
Spore Crawler damage decreased from 15 +30 bio to 15 +15 bio

still troubled with marines not doing everything for terran?


Overlord
Transport upgrade is now an upgrade available on Overlords individual.
Nice job, really, this idea is wrong for so many reasons but, i'll give you the most obvious, maps

Sogetsu
Profile Joined July 2011
514 Posts
June 19 2015 15:59 GMT
#125
On June 20 2015 00:45 Cazimirbzh wrote:
New upgrade: reduces unit unload delay from 1 sec to 0.5 sec
Spore Crawler damage decreased from 15 +30 bio to 15 +15 bio

still troubled with marines not doing everything for terran?


Overlord
Transport upgrade is now an upgrade available on Overlords individual.
Nice job, really, this idea is wrong for so many reasons but, i'll give you the most obvious, maps



How can you be so biased and have so little knowledge about the game? Uh?
The Spore Crawler is for Mutas, because they said there are almost no Muta play on ZvZ... or what did you think? Spores attacking dropping marines? Seriously?

The Medivac upgrade is kinda costly, and take time to research it, also requires TechLab, most of Terran things are Researchs, you can't get ALL, you need lot of time, resources and structures to get upgrades for almost anything, Cyclone, Liberator, Banshee, Medivac, Raven, Hellion, Widow Mine.

And also Mech Upgrades separated again... it is kinda lame to think you can get all as Terran, you need to focus con few specific things on the MU you are playing to get them.

Also the Overlord upgrade is nice, it take just few seconds to make a drop for 25 / 25, so if you can drop as Zerg you don't need to wait for a 200 / 200 upgrade that take a life to research, you just grab few Ovis, and upgrade 3 of them or so, and start Dropping (you need the speed upgrade still tho)
Raptor: "Es hora de salvar a los E-Sports..." http://i3.minus.com/ibtne3liprtByB.png
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55550 Posts
June 19 2015 16:00 GMT
#126
On June 20 2015 00:45 Cazimirbzh wrote:
Spore Crawler damage decreased from 15 +30 bio to 15 +15 bio

still troubled with marines not doing everything for terran?

Spore crawlers have literally nothing to do with marines.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
Clonester
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany2808 Posts
June 19 2015 16:04 GMT
#127
Hmm. Instead of giving the cloaking-stealth unit with the sniper rifle some sort of... Sniping? we give it a heavy as Drone, that is x2 large as the ghost himself and yeah, gets shot in secounds and is usefull only in that moments, blizzard thinks they will happen but never happen in the game as intended. The drone will more likely reduce Zergling or Baneling Armor then ever Ultralisk Armor.

The easiest solution, make the cool skill snipe from a cloaking ninja unit with a sniper rifle in a way stronger that it does not melt T3 units with a click-orgie, for example 45 dmg against all targets but only 25 dmg against massive. Or make a new upgrade in the ghost academy:
Anti-Armor Shell. 100, 100, 90 secs research time. Reduces the armor of targets hit by snipe about X (mostly 1) points per snipe hit for X secounds
Bomber, Attacker, DD, SOMEBODY, NiKo, Nex, Spidii
JCoto
Profile Joined October 2014
Spain574 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-19 16:13:05
June 19 2015 16:04 GMT
#128
On June 20 2015 00:33 Daralii wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 20 2015 00:31 JCoto wrote:
On June 20 2015 00:01 Foxxan wrote:
Really like the overlord change. As long as every race has good firepower in the early game so its not about high tech etc i think it could work out great.

What i absolutely like about it is the potential for zerg to be agressive from the early game and not in an all-in or cheese way


That is the problem, only 2/3 races have enough firepower eary game.

Protoss will have serious problems as the current design of Adepts is very poor and subject to change, even if it is working quite acceptably at least early game, reaching the bordelrine of problematic.

We still have Photon Overcharge into the game and no efficient production till Warpgate

Such is the cost of warp gate.



And it makes no sense. Protoss has been always "blessed" with the free macrobooster upgrade, while other races have to pay 150minerals, but with some design perks to balance it. I think that it is a design flaw.

Free cost macrobooster since minute 0 implies that you can't have gateways building zealots fast because of proxy gates (that is wrote on the patch history of WoL beta) and you can't have a very strong macrobooster because it will create a very high economic advantage early game for free (WoL beta CB nerf) leading to empowered rushes and all-ins.
It also means that you can't use CB on cannons because that will overpower Cannon rushes.
You've lost two good potential functionalities for 1 change, leaving you quite vulnerable

So because of that basically you are tied to play safe, turtle until warpgate is done, and go. Warpgate has to be made almost for free since it is acting as a time delay, not really as an economical delay or a true optional upgrade; it's a core need to balance the productive strength in different game phases combined with a true tactical upgrade (Warping) that has a very strong functionality.

Alpha Protoss was slightly different, having standarized macro. And I think Starbow has reproduced that state and solved it quite nicely.

IMAO Protoss should have to choose when to upgrade a Gateway to a Warpgate (transitory or definitive) and not be tied to an autopilot mode that make Gateways without upgrade weak and vulnerable to early game pressure.
Lexender
Profile Joined September 2013
Mexico2647 Posts
June 19 2015 16:05 GMT
#129
On June 20 2015 00:31 JCoto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 20 2015 00:01 Foxxan wrote:
Really like the overlord change. As long as every race has good firepower in the early game so its not about high tech etc i think it could work out great.

What i absolutely like about it is the potential for zerg to be agressive from the early game and not in an all-in or cheese way


That is the problem, only 2/3 races have enough firepower eary game.

Protoss will have serious problems as the current design of Adepts is very poor and subject to change, even if it is working quite acceptably at least early game, reaching the bordelrine of problematic.

We still have Photon Overcharge into the game and no efficient production till Warpgate


You can have good Gateway units.

You can have warp gate.

But you can't have both.
JCoto
Profile Joined October 2014
Spain574 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-19 17:31:47
June 19 2015 16:42 GMT
#130
On June 20 2015 01:05 Lexender wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 20 2015 00:31 JCoto wrote:
On June 20 2015 00:01 Foxxan wrote:
Really like the overlord change. As long as every race has good firepower in the early game so its not about high tech etc i think it could work out great.

What i absolutely like about it is the potential for zerg to be agressive from the early game and not in an all-in or cheese way


That is the problem, only 2/3 races have enough firepower eary game.

Protoss will have serious problems as the current design of Adepts is very poor and subject to change, even if it is working quite acceptably at least early game, reaching the bordelrine of problematic.

We still have Photon Overcharge into the game and no efficient production till Warpgate


You can have good Gateway units.

You can have warp gate.

But you can't have both.


I think that is very innacurate. You can remove Warpgate right now, give the same productive strength to Gateways, and you will find the problem of ChronoBoost + rush. Warpgate is not gonna change the efficiency of your 200/200 armies that are very powerful because of the heavy damage sources.

Warpgate efficiency, cost and tech delays can be adjusted and tuned at will. There is a point of the game where runbies, warps and drops work quite similar, because other units and armies have natural mobility compared to Protoss. Maybe they should focus on discussing at which point we could have a Warpgate upgrade like the one we have now, or very similar.

Obviously, in-battle drops or warp-prism warp-ins in base can get out of control sometimes. Maybe we should look at that. The actual x2 damage nerf discourages in-battle warp-ins enormously. That is an example of adjusting Warpgate

IMAO We have acceptable Gateway units with questionable design deicisions, not really that weak and not tied directly to Warpgate. We have recieved some nerfs because of the timing potential of Warpgate, mainly DTs and HTs and Blink research time, but timings are timings. Delay them and increase the cost and that is gone.

Zealot stats are very similar to BW Zealot with a small health nerf. However Zealot mobility is not good and that's their big weakness because they are meele units. It is easily kited by bio and units on creep, and many units can just run away from them. Is it related to WarpGate? Probably Concussive shells and the need of Charge have more to do with it, and their interaction between Zerglings (we don't have to forget that in very early SC2 proxy Zealot was problematic because of maps being really small and shorter build times so that could have also been the case in developement)

Adepts have absurd stats and poor design, but however they are strong early-midgame but weak lategame and there is also Warpgate. Point is not valid here.

Sentries are defenisve units, and have a very questionable design perk, which is 50 energy (FF) after being warped. They never nerfed an abusable relationship between the Sentry and Warpgate. In fact, they never nerfed sentries, even when FF can become really abusive.

Dark Templars are the same they were in BW, the only nerf they have recieved it's increased build time for Dark Shrine to prevent timing hits.

HT's recieved a nerf when the energy upgrade was removed.

The only point which I can agree with is with Stalkers feeling kinda weak compared to Dragoons, but you have to consider that damage system is different, there is ForceFields and Stalkers can Blink, which can empower Stalkers a lot.
Blink research time was nerfed.

When does Warpgate force gateway units to be weak?
Might them feel weak because there are a ton of aspects balanced around timings and warpgate is very timing/all-in friendly and Warpgate seems guilty for this?
Then why can't we delay/nerf Warpgate and experiment around to see if it's really the case? (I'm sure we will find the Gateway/CB problem here and not Warpgate that much)

Personally, I think that FF have much more impact on balancing Protoss units than Warpgate.In my opinion, the problematic of Warpgate is how it acts as a balancer for productive strength of Protoss and dictates timings, but not directly over Protoss units, which have their own problems.
QTIP.
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States2113 Posts
June 19 2015 16:45 GMT
#131
I miss MC T_T
"Trash Micro but Win. Its Marin." - Min Chul
swag_bro
Profile Blog Joined July 2014
Japan782 Posts
June 19 2015 16:54 GMT
#132
Overlord
Transport upgrade is now an upgrade available on Overlords individual. (Cost 25/25 per overlord, available from start of game)
Global transport upgrade removed.


All I read from this is that Terran and Zerg can expand to island bases super early and relatively safely while Protoss would have to invest into so many resources just to have that ability. Good job Blizzard. Now all the map makers need to do is never make island bases ever again.
They hate us 'cause they ain't us.
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15956 Posts
June 19 2015 16:58 GMT
#133
On June 20 2015 01:42 JCoto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 20 2015 01:05 Lexender wrote:
On June 20 2015 00:31 JCoto wrote:
On June 20 2015 00:01 Foxxan wrote:
Really like the overlord change. As long as every race has good firepower in the early game so its not about high tech etc i think it could work out great.

What i absolutely like about it is the potential for zerg to be agressive from the early game and not in an all-in or cheese way


That is the problem, only 2/3 races have enough firepower eary game.

Protoss will have serious problems as the current design of Adepts is very poor and subject to change, even if it is working quite acceptably at least early game, reaching the bordelrine of problematic.

We still have Photon Overcharge into the game and no efficient production till Warpgate


You can have good Gateway units.

You can have warp gate.

But you can't have both.


I think that is very innacurate. You can remove Warpgate right now, give the same productive strength to Gateways, and you will find the problem of ChronoBoost + rush. Warpgate is not gonna change the efficiency of your 200/200 armies that are very powerful because of the heavy damage sources.

Warpgate efficiency, cost and tech delays can be adjusted and tuned at will. There is a point of the game where runbies, warps and drops work quite similar, because other units and armies have natural mobility compared to Protoss. Maybe they should focus on discussing at which point we could have a Warpgate upgrade like the one we have now, or very similar.

Obviously, in-battle drops or warp-prism warp-ins in base can get out of control sometimes. Maybe we should look at that. The actual x2 damage nerf discourages in-battle warp-ins enormously. That is an example of adjusting Warpgate

IMAO We have acceptable Gateway units with questionable design deicisions, not really that weak and not tied directly to Warpgate. We have recieved some nerfs because of the timing potential of Warpgate, mainly DTs and HTs and Blink research time, but timings are timings. Delay them and increase the cost and that is gone.

Zealot stats are very similar to BW Zealot with a small health nerf. However Zealot mobility is not good and that's their big weakness because they are meele units. It is easily kited by bio and units on creep, and many units can just run away from them. Is it related to WarpGate? Probably Concussive shells and the need of Charge have more to do with it, and their interaction between Zerglings (we don't have to forget that in very early SC2 proxy Zealot was problematic because of maps being really small and shorter build times so that could have also been the case in developement)

Adepts have absurd stats and poor design, but however they are strong early-midgame but weak lategame and there is also Warpgate. Point is not valid here.

Sentries are defenisve units, and have a very questionable design perk, which is 50 energy (FF) after being warped. They never nerfed an abusable relationship between the Sentry and Warpgate. In fact, they never nerfed sentries, even when FF can become really abusive.

Dark Templars are the same they were in BW, the only nerf they have recieved it's increased build time for Dark Shrine to prevent timing hits.

HT's recieved a nerf when the energy upgrade was removed.

The only point which I can agree with is with Stalkers feeling kinda weak compared to Dragoons, but you have to consider that damage system is different, there is ForceFields and Stalkers can Blink, which can empower Stalkers a lot.
Blink research time was nerfed.

When does Warpgate force gateway units to be weak?
Might them feel weak because there are a ton of aspects balanced around timings and warpgate is very timing/all-in friendly and Warpgate seems guilty for this?
Then why can't we delay/nerf Warpgate and experiment around to see if it's really the case? (I'm sure we will find the Gateway/CB problem here and not Warpgate that much)

Personally, I think that FF have much more impact on balancing Protoss units than Warpgate.In my opinion, the problematic of Warpgate is how it acts as a balancer for productive strength of Protoss, but not directly over Protoss units, which have their own problems.

i think it's ridicolous people still complain that gateway units are weak although in the last few months protoss played with only gateway units in 90% of pvzs.
In some cases i'm glad blizzard doesn't listen to the community when they show such a lack of game knowledge and complain just for the sake of complaining.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
ZergLingShepherd1
Profile Joined June 2015
404 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-19 17:12:13
June 19 2015 17:10 GMT
#134
On June 20 2015 01:54 swag_bro wrote:
Show nested quote +
Overlord
Transport upgrade is now an upgrade available on Overlords individual. (Cost 25/25 per overlord, available from start of game)
Global transport upgrade removed.


All I read from this is that Terran and Zerg can expand to island bases super early and relatively safely while Protoss would have to invest into so many resources just to have that ability. Good job Blizzard. Now all the map makers need to do is never make island bases ever again.


Its not only good for map islands.

I just tried Lurker drops, and failed with them cuz they dont do enough damage but then i got this amazing ideea.

HYDRAS and SPEEDLINGS.

- When i rush to drop with hydras the damage is amazing, it kills workers and even bases so fast. Its really good against protoss but also decent vs terran, to keep them at home.

- Slow Overloord with speedlings its even more powerfull, skipp the walls and just harass like a boss, no longer walls will be a BS strategy against Zerg. This droop tactic is super good to kill workers and even keep the terran hellions at home while you macro. Against Protoss he will have to micro his adepts and wont go a greedy forge fax expand.

THANK YOU BLIZZARD !
"The Fractured but Whole"
TheWinks
Profile Joined July 2011
United States572 Posts
June 19 2015 17:12 GMT
#135
On June 20 2015 00:20 owlman wrote:
Snipe is not mandatory vs HT, EMP is enough.

The ghost vs high templar setup already favored the protoss. Requiring 2 75 energy abilities just to prevent a Templar from storming, which can then merge into an archon requiring more 75 energy abilities to fight is a massive change.
JCoto
Profile Joined October 2014
Spain574 Posts
June 19 2015 17:29 GMT
#136
On June 20 2015 02:12 TheWinks wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 20 2015 00:20 owlman wrote:
Snipe is not mandatory vs HT, EMP is enough.

The ghost vs high templar setup already favored the protoss. Requiring 2 75 energy abilities just to prevent a Templar from storming, which can then merge into an archon requiring more 75 energy abilities to fight is a massive change.


First, Snipe costs 25 energy. You only need 2 snipes to kill an HT (50 energy). If you kill HT, you prevent it from storming. No use of double ability as you said.

I wouldn't call "favored" since a good EMP can drain 50% the energy from 7-8 templars (It happened today in 2 matches if I'm not wrong) and Ghosts can be cloaked, spread and used in ambushes, they only need 4 shots to kill a templar with basic attacks....

2 EMPS (1 Ghost) can counter 5-8 HTs.

6 Snipes + Cloack (1 Ghost) can easily kill 3 HTs. 8 snipes = 4 HTS

4 feedbacks (1 HT) can kill 4 ghosts if landed optimally. So pretty similar.

In fact, EMP drains 100 shields instantly from every Protoss unit affected, while a perfect storm will deal 80 HP over 4s in the best case. Then which side is favored, according to numbers? On raw data, EMP > Storm, since it's the same energy cost, and does instant damage, plus Bio can be healed.

Forget about raw data. The Ghost - HT battle is a pure micro war, where splits, control, lateral tactics and ambushes rule over data.

Sapphire.lux
Profile Joined July 2010
Romania2620 Posts
June 19 2015 17:32 GMT
#137
On June 20 2015 00:06 Foxxan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 23:22 Sapphire.lux wrote:
With Snipe gone, will HTs not dominate Ghosts? Design and direction aside, there might be some serious balance problems here. Just speculating though. Maybe it's time to reintroduce the 100% mana depletion from EMP.

They should go away from the ghost vs hightemplar fight 100%. When the armee all relie on those few spellcasters it becomes quite boring to watch and play.

I'm not saying i disagree, but Storm and EMP are just as strong, so the fight between the two is just as important. In any case, as far as TvP goes, the micro battle of Ghost-Templar is/was one of the few interesting points for me; seeing how the alternative was "does he have enough Vikings to kill the Colossus" and "can he hold the all in". Hopefully LOTV improves on this MU
Head Coach Park: "They should buff tanks!"
Lexender
Profile Joined September 2013
Mexico2647 Posts
June 19 2015 17:48 GMT
#138
On June 20 2015 01:42 JCoto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 20 2015 01:05 Lexender wrote:
On June 20 2015 00:31 JCoto wrote:
On June 20 2015 00:01 Foxxan wrote:
Really like the overlord change. As long as every race has good firepower in the early game so its not about high tech etc i think it could work out great.

What i absolutely like about it is the potential for zerg to be agressive from the early game and not in an all-in or cheese way


That is the problem, only 2/3 races have enough firepower eary game.

Protoss will have serious problems as the current design of Adepts is very poor and subject to change, even if it is working quite acceptably at least early game, reaching the bordelrine of problematic.

We still have Photon Overcharge into the game and no efficient production till Warpgate


You can have good Gateway units.

You can have warp gate.

But you can't have both.


I think that is very innacurate. You can remove Warpgate right now, give the same productive strength to Gateways, and you will find the problem of ChronoBoost + rush. Warpgate is not gonna change the efficiency of your 200/200 armies that are very powerful because of the heavy damage sources.

Warpgate efficiency, cost and tech delays can be adjusted and tuned at will. There is a point of the game where runbies, warps and drops work quite similar, because other units and armies have natural mobility compared to Protoss. Maybe they should focus on discussing at which point we could have a Warpgate upgrade like the one we have now, or very similar.

Obviously, in-battle drops or warp-prism warp-ins in base can get out of control sometimes. Maybe we should look at that. The actual x2 damage nerf discourages in-battle warp-ins enormously. That is an example of adjusting Warpgate

IMAO We have acceptable Gateway units with questionable design deicisions, not really that weak and not tied directly to Warpgate. We have recieved some nerfs because of the timing potential of Warpgate, mainly DTs and HTs and Blink research time, but timings are timings. Delay them and increase the cost and that is gone.

Zealot stats are very similar to BW Zealot with a small health nerf. However Zealot mobility is not good and that's their big weakness because they are meele units. It is easily kited by bio and units on creep, and many units can just run away from them. Is it related to WarpGate? Probably Concussive shells and the need of Charge have more to do with it, and their interaction between Zerglings (we don't have to forget that in very early SC2 proxy Zealot was problematic because of maps being really small and shorter build times so that could have also been the case in developement)

Adepts have absurd stats and poor design, but however they are strong early-midgame but weak lategame and there is also Warpgate. Point is not valid here.

Sentries are defenisve units, and have a very questionable design perk, which is 50 energy (FF) after being warped. They never nerfed an abusable relationship between the Sentry and Warpgate. In fact, they never nerfed sentries, even when FF can become really abusive.

Dark Templars are the same they were in BW, the only nerf they have recieved it's increased build time for Dark Shrine to prevent timing hits.

HT's recieved a nerf when the energy upgrade was removed.

The only point which I can agree with is with Stalkers feeling kinda weak compared to Dragoons, but you have to consider that damage system is different, there is ForceFields and Stalkers can Blink, which can empower Stalkers a lot.
Blink research time was nerfed.

When does Warpgate force gateway units to be weak?
Might them feel weak because there are a ton of aspects balanced around timings and warpgate is very timing/all-in friendly and Warpgate seems guilty for this?
Then why can't we delay/nerf Warpgate and experiment around to see if it's really the case? (I'm sure we will find the Gateway/CB problem here and not Warpgate that much)

Personally, I think that FF have much more impact on balancing Protoss units than Warpgate.In my opinion, the problematic of Warpgate is how it acts as a balancer for productive strength of Protoss and dictates timings, but not directly over Protoss units, which have their own problems.


I think you don't really understand the problematic WG causes, WG units are not weak per se, but they have big weaknesses when compared to armies that should be similar, now while one could argue about asimetrycal design there are 2 big problems that protoss has had that show a lot in current LotV.

The big dependency on death ball units (high cost high AoE).

The inability to expand and defense expansión as fast.

As you can see with Blizzard they are trying this with cheaper recall and adepts.

But you can see what the problema is your self

Adepts have absurd stats and poor design, but however they are strong early-midgame but weak lategame and there is also Warpgate. Point is not valid here.


Thats exactly the point, adepts are strong early but fall off as the game goes on, just like stalkers (not completely ofc) because warpgate limits their potential strenght.

You can already see it now, where every PvX match is so adept centric early game, they are very strong there, because you can have a lot since they don't have to travel throught the map (negating defender advantage) and even giving you the ability to chose either stalkers or zealots if the enemy tries to counter.

WG IS a big limitant, they get rid of map advantages, defenders advantage and thus become too dependant on timings.

So as Day9 pointed out in his SBow special, the game stops becoming about control and more about timings and counter. You either get the correct counter in the correct time, or you die.

Now while this not necessarily creates imbalance (Inb4 l3rn t0 5c0ut trolls comment) it creates awful game play (I remember the video where marauders and adepts tickle each other) it creates too much of a binary gameplay.

Its not like is the only thing that creates this type of gameplay its a big part of the vicious cycle.

Also if you don't think FF is tied to the way WG Works you are mostly wrong, FF is needed exactly because of the limitations WG creates.

Now I'm not saying WG is bad or should go away, is a nice interesting and fun mechanic, but right now is too binary. And the strenght of protoss is to tied there, so the weaker/less mandatory WG becomes the stronger/more viable the other stuff get in Exchange.
ZergLingShepherd1
Profile Joined June 2015
404 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-19 18:03:09
June 19 2015 18:02 GMT
#139
David Kim new feedback
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/18183849206

As we mentioned before, we’d like to provide our thoughts on areas that we’ve looked into this week based on community suggestions. Before we get into the details, we’d like to point out while we try our best to hit majority of the big topics, it’ll be impossible to cover every single topic every time. The goal here is to discuss big issues with you guys, and continue doing so over time. With this first post, we’re covering a few more topics than we might typically cover in a normal update. However, we think this is a good way to kick off these updates.

We’d like to also make it as clear as possible that game design is not about implementing every idea that the majority thinks is correct, it’s about finding the key ideas that will be best for the game. So we’ll do our best to keep an open mind on topics and even if we’re currently thinking that we won’t try something out, we’ll keep it as part of our regular discussions if those issues keep being brought up by the community. Please also try your best to do this as well, and remember it’s not about how many people say something, and it’s not about bandwagoning onto the loudest idea. It’s about trying to look at issues from every angle possible to make sure it is in fact what’s best for our game. Just as an example, internally in design meetings we try our best to detach ourselves from every idea. Even if I’ve suggested something, I try my best to analyze how it might be bad. This way, I can focus on the specific idea and if it’s the correct move for the game, rather than pushing for the idea just because I thought of something I think is awesome.

Here are our thoughts on many of the bigger community discussions this past week:

Flying unit separation radius

We agree that when you are controlling larger numbers of air units, it’s difficult to do the moving shot micro.
This requires a code fix, and we’re currently exploring and testing something that we can add to the beta soon.

Making all damage points to zero for air units

One of the reasons we don’t have a default damage point of zero is so that the timing of micro has to be mastered by players. Just making it zero will mean microing is just much easier, which is probably not the direction we want to go.
We generally don’t make extreme changes that alter so many things at once, due to the side effects these changes can cause. Changing every single air unit’s damage point is not something we’d like to explore, but we’d be open to specific air unit damage point changes if the change makes sense.
With a damage point of zero, a unit that is facing its target can immediately move away after being issued the attack order. With the default damage point, the player must instead time their movement to happen after the attack is performed. An example of where this is pushed even further is the Hellion, which has a higher than normal damage point. The unique timing required for this unit requires additional mastery, which makes it more impressive when pros are able to be so effective with them. Since the suggested goal of the change is to have more interesting micro, in this specific case, we wonder if what we currently have is more interesting micro than the proposed changes.

Siege Tank /Immortal turret tracking

This sounds like a very minor change that probably won’t have a huge impact. However, because many players believe this will be of great help, so we’ll test it fairly quickly internally, then put the change in also in the beta. So you can expect this change to go into the beta soon.

Community resourcing model suggestion

We also watched show matches, tried games ourselves, and we agree with the majority of you guys that it’s too similar to Heart of the Swarm. But we wanted to comment again on this because it’s still a topic discussed by some.
Just to reiterate once more, we’re not looking to make minor tweaks in this area. We’re looking for a big change that will make sure that players will spread out their expansions at a much faster rate than they do in Heart of the Swarm.
Currently, the resourcing model that we’re testing in the beta is doing a very good job of this.

Ranked play in the beta

We hear your feedback and agree that it’ll be good to enable ranked play.
We may not be able to do this right away as we’ll need to introduce this with a client patch and can’t use the same method we use for the balance update which is done through publishing.
Due to the feedback we’ve seen on this topic, we’ve currently scheduled to enable ranked play in the beta with the next client patch.

Disruptor being too all-or-nothing

We agree with you guys here. The optimal case looks too strong, and when you miss with a hit it seems like the Disruptor is killed too easily at such a high cost investment.
We’ve been trying various things in this area for a while now, but this is where we’re at right now:
Much lower radius (this is the biggest change + Disruptors look too underpowered right now in our testing)
Lower cost
Faster speed when activated
Less delay before firing

Overall, it looks like we have a decent solve for the case of a single hit ending games often.
We believe the next step in this area is to test out changes that would allow players to more easily save and reuse the Disruptors. This way, we can solve the issue where a miss creates a high chance of the game being over.

We’d also like to comment on some topics that we found interesting this week. Again, please keep in mind just because we don’t mention something here, it doesn’t mean we haven’t read it. While it’s impossible to read every single post that comes up every day, we do try our best and can tell you that we read a big majority of the things you guys bring up.

Adept micro tips video was very cool.

It was a very good example of relaying more info on something new, so that players in the beta can better test new units.
It would definitely be more cool to see more tips on new units videos, because we believe faster we have the majority of beta testers ramped up with new units, the more high quality beta testing we will have going forward.

There was a post asking if players want battles to last much longer. Our thoughts are that the current pace feels really good, and we were happy to see that most players didn’t want battles to last longer in StarCraft II.
"The Fractured but Whole"
TheWinks
Profile Joined July 2011
United States572 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-19 18:11:08
June 19 2015 18:09 GMT
#140
On June 20 2015 02:29 JCoto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 20 2015 02:12 TheWinks wrote:
On June 20 2015 00:20 owlman wrote:
Snipe is not mandatory vs HT, EMP is enough.

The ghost vs high templar setup already favored the protoss. Requiring 2 75 energy abilities just to prevent a Templar from storming, which can then merge into an archon requiring more 75 energy abilities to fight is a massive change.


First, Snipe costs 25 energy. You only need 2 snipes to kill an HT (50 energy). If you kill HT, you prevent it from storming. No use of double ability as you said.

I wouldn't call "favored" since a good EMP can drain 50% the energy from 7-8 templars (It happened today in 2 matches if I'm not wrong) and Ghosts can be cloaked, spread and used in ambushes, they only need 4 shots to kill a templar with basic attacks....

Where did I say snipe? EMP is 75 energy. You require 2 EMPs to prevent storms. You then require more EMPs to deal with the resulting archons. You use EMP against clumped high templars (which is a failure on the part of the protoss) and you use snipe on individuals where EMP doesn't make any sense.

And if you're going to claim that hots late game TvP isn't protoss favored, well, I'm not going to have that argument with you.
Scarlett`
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada2385 Posts
June 19 2015 18:22 GMT
#141
On June 20 2015 01:05 Lexender wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 20 2015 00:31 JCoto wrote:
On June 20 2015 00:01 Foxxan wrote:
Really like the overlord change. As long as every race has good firepower in the early game so its not about high tech etc i think it could work out great.

What i absolutely like about it is the potential for zerg to be agressive from the early game and not in an all-in or cheese way


That is the problem, only 2/3 races have enough firepower eary game.

Protoss will have serious problems as the current design of Adepts is very poor and subject to change, even if it is working quite acceptably at least early game, reaching the bordelrine of problematic.

We still have Photon Overcharge into the game and no efficient production till Warpgate


You can have good Gateway units.

You can have warp gate.

But you can't have both.

what about adepts
Progamer
SetGuitarsToKill
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
Canada28396 Posts
June 19 2015 18:27 GMT
#142
On June 20 2015 03:22 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 20 2015 01:05 Lexender wrote:
On June 20 2015 00:31 JCoto wrote:
On June 20 2015 00:01 Foxxan wrote:
Really like the overlord change. As long as every race has good firepower in the early game so its not about high tech etc i think it could work out great.

What i absolutely like about it is the potential for zerg to be agressive from the early game and not in an all-in or cheese way


That is the problem, only 2/3 races have enough firepower eary game.

Protoss will have serious problems as the current design of Adepts is very poor and subject to change, even if it is working quite acceptably at least early game, reaching the bordelrine of problematic.

We still have Photon Overcharge into the game and no efficient production till Warpgate


You can have good Gateway units.

You can have warp gate.

But you can't have both.

what about adepts

adepts are a proof of concept that he's right
Community News"As long as you have a warp prism you can't be bad at harassment" - Maru | @SetGuitars2Kill
Leviance
Profile Joined November 2009
Germany4079 Posts
June 19 2015 19:48 GMT
#143
Overlord transport available from the start? Yayyy banerain in eco lines
"Blizzard is never gonna nerf Terran because of those American and European fuck" - Korean Netizen
Gwavajuice
Profile Joined June 2014
France1810 Posts
June 19 2015 20:45 GMT
#144
On June 19 2015 23:23 Lexender wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2015 22:28 Gwavajuice wrote:
People just can't help theorycrafting, proposing ideas and giving opinions when all they should do really is to just test the f of every new concept so that in the end the final product is optimized.


At least you guys shoud try to provide replays with the new changes in action to proove your points :|


Hard to do when patch isn't live yet.



My point, exactly.
Dear INno and all the former STX boys.
Aenur
Profile Joined April 2012
Germany66 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-19 22:41:07
June 19 2015 22:40 GMT
#145
I hoped they would push back the Medivac a little bit. It already got stronger by the simple fact that you have to defend more bases in LotV. If they want a researchable uprade for the Medivac they should make the turboboost an upgrade.
Happy there wouldn't be an addon after LotV, so that they could give it one more unneeded buff- maybe remove their energy so they can heal all the time... and are immune to feedback TT
Odowan Paleolithic
Profile Blog Joined May 2013
United States232 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-20 12:55:46
June 20 2015 11:57 GMT
#146
So 7 pages and no one mentioned parasitic bomb? I am amazed how the game is under explored,while all those babble continues about ghost (rip templars that can't dance away from marauders to begin with and are mostly going to hide via prism pick up just like disruptors, new meta of 5 prisms so vikings can't 1 shot?).

The problem with parasitic bombs was not the mana cost (even if you raise it to 175 the zerg is just going to hold the balls slightly longer by building evolution chambers). I wonder how terran deal with it when they don't have feedback. In PvZ viper just nullifies carrier one for at least one since the damage stack and interceptors all get shredded on the way out as well as on the way in.

For all those of you believe that swarmhosts game ain't happening there is more and more reason to believe so. Since there is notion of limiting the game to a certain time some of the energy based units are going to trade a lot more efficient that playing for the clock is viable.

I don't expect any economy changes even double harvest, less mineral patches or as day9 once suggested play sc2 on 400/400 max are all better alternatives. Given the current trend a Stephano 2.0 has major advantave. If the game time limit does get implemented then the strategic objective will shift from kikling enemy's building to hold on and trade efficiently till the clock or harass the other guy to death but not losing too much before clock runs out.

Post edit: I played 3 games today and didn't feel satisfying at all. All under 10 mins. 1 PvP where adepts busted my wall when I went greedy nexus. The other pvp guy went blink and didn't bust my wall in time. And not to mention the tons of pvz i played last week where i just went 2 carrier + adept rush if i didnt get busted from zergling rush and straight up wins or base trades because the zerg had little preparation or can't mcro effectively.

Please if you are playing beta play with some effort or the devs have no idea what is or should be changed. You can cheese every game and i fully support it because it requires planning effort and advance metagame. If you just build randomly or didn't thought it through I hope you gain some wisdom. For example don't mass reapers in pvt and tell me my lowly plat skill was the first to stop your exmaster experience. Or build a turret when you open mech. Or don't get killed while teching to liberators then complain they don't fit. Or scout before you dump all your gas into ravagers.

/end rant
I need a bigger fridge. I cannot hold all the Cheese that are given to me.
Odowan Paleolithic
Profile Blog Joined May 2013
United States232 Posts
June 20 2015 13:22 GMT
#147
On June 20 2015 01:54 swag_bro wrote:
Show nested quote +
Overlord
Transport upgrade is now an upgrade available on Overlords individual. (Cost 25/25 per overlord, available from start of game)
Global transport upgrade removed.


All I read from this is that Terran and Zerg can expand to island bases super early and relatively safely while Protoss would have to invest into so many resources just to have that ability. Good job Blizzard. Now all the map makers need to do is never make island bases ever again.


Just make the island bases blink-able.
I need a bigger fridge. I cannot hold all the Cheese that are given to me.
Plantarbre
Profile Joined July 2014
France45 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-20 17:04:20
June 20 2015 17:04 GMT
#148
Some feedback about zerg early cheeses (roaches, mass speedlings...) with the new overlords ?
Edowyth
Profile Joined October 2010
United States183 Posts
June 23 2015 20:38 GMT
#149
On June 20 2015 01:05 Lexender wrote:
You can have good Gateway units.

You can have warp gate.

But you can't have both.


I'd argue that this is obviously not true.

High Templar come from warp gates and are frequently considered one of the stronger units in the game.

The only key is that when warped in units can't be fully effective but after a grace period (the same as walking across the map or generating energy for storm) warp gate units can be just as strong as opponent's units if they're designed well.
"Q. How do I check a valid [e-]mail address? A. You can't, at least, not in real time. Bummer, eh?" /r/programming
Of course, you could just send them a validation email.
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
June 24 2015 02:03 GMT
#150
On June 24 2015 05:38 Edowyth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 20 2015 01:05 Lexender wrote:
You can have good Gateway units.

You can have warp gate.

But you can't have both.


I'd argue that this is obviously not true.

High Templar come from warp gates and are frequently considered one of the stronger units in the game.

The only key is that when warped in units can't be fully effective but after a grace period (the same as walking across the map or generating energy for storm) warp gate units can be just as strong as opponent's units if they're designed well.


Khaydarin Amulet was removed for exactly that reason: allowing a high templar to use it's spells immediately after warp-in was too strong.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
NasusAndDraven
Profile Joined April 2015
359 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-24 10:15:40
June 24 2015 10:14 GMT
#151
On June 20 2015 04:48 Leviance wrote:
Overlord transport available from the start? Yayyy banerain in eco lines

If you let slow overlords reach your mineral lines without you noticing, you deserve to lose lmao. The banelings are slow aswell.

The only thing the buff allows is to pretty much use overlord as an elevator for units to go up or down cliffs.
HewTheTitan
Profile Joined February 2015
Canada331 Posts
June 24 2015 20:14 GMT
#152
Ghost
•New Ability: Anti-Armor Drone

•Deploy a flying, destructible drone.

•Channels a beam on a single target that reduces its armor by 3.


I think they've lost it. They can no longer tell the difference between an interesting unit/mechanic and a mechanical one. It feels like a bot or some AI created this patch.

Doesn't it?
_indigo_
Profile Joined August 2010
Slovenia171 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-24 20:49:14
June 24 2015 20:48 GMT
#153
Don't really wanna make a new thread because of this but does anyone else see this recent Blizzard post on Facebook as a hint for upcoming SKINS? Or am I looking too deep into this random picture...

-> + Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
I have seen it all, and everything is just as senseless as chasing the wind.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-26 00:22:15
June 26 2015 00:21 GMT
#154
So I played some games today after 5weeks. My resume:
[image loading]

The overlord change is so broken, trololololol.
jinjin5000
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1425 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-26 00:58:37
June 26 2015 00:57 GMT
#155
On June 26 2015 09:21 Big J wrote:
So I played some games today after 5weeks. My resume:
[image loading]

The overlord change is so broken, trololololol.


No, its just there to diversify options! Zerg needs these early tools or their all ins are really bad!!!!! /s

I don't see the argument here. It hits way before other races get their own drops in first place and it being available in hatch tech gives them no choice on AA responses.
Acritter
Profile Joined August 2010
Syria7637 Posts
June 26 2015 01:22 GMT
#156
On June 24 2015 05:38 Edowyth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 20 2015 01:05 Lexender wrote:
You can have good Gateway units.

You can have warp gate.

But you can't have both.


I'd argue that this is obviously not true.

High Templar come from warp gates and are frequently considered one of the stronger units in the game.

The only key is that when warped in units can't be fully effective but after a grace period (the same as walking across the map or generating energy for storm) warp gate units can be just as strong as opponent's units if they're designed well.

So presumably the necessary changes would be Warp Gate spawning units in with no shields or some other kind of medium-duration "warp sickness." I mean, it would even make sense from a lore perspective: the reason it typically takes so long for Protoss units to just teleport in is because they're actually just spending time recovering from the brutal warp before entering battle. If this were done, Gateway units could be buffed.
dont let your memes be dreams - konydora, motivational speaker | not actually living in syria
ShambhalaWar
Profile Joined August 2013
United States930 Posts
June 26 2015 01:55 GMT
#157
On June 26 2015 09:21 Big J wrote:
So I played some games today after 5weeks. My resume:
[image loading]

The overlord change is so broken, trololololol.


Disagree, Dramatic, Doubt completely that is your actual match history... Cause we know 90% of games you play are zvz and ovi drops are sooooooooo good in zvz.
Salteador Neo
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Andorra5591 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-26 09:23:05
June 26 2015 07:54 GMT
#158
The anti ultra drone should suffer the same problem as Phoenixes (against mutas). You either have some before the ultras or you are in trouble. Zerg can tech switch between mutas and ultras in high numbers in the late game.
Revolutionist fan
winsonsonho
Profile Joined October 2012
Korea (South)143 Posts
June 26 2015 10:54 GMT
#159
Medivacs should have an upgrade to double the number of units they can carry and a separate upgrade for ability to repair mech. I have a feeling that Medivacs might still not be strong enough and in this case should get +100 hp.

The new upgraded Overlords should also be able to use Nydus or at least be able to burrow move.

The Disruptor should morph into a flying Reaver after it goes Nova.

These changes would totally balance the game and would solve the economy issues. I should work for Blizzard..
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9377 Posts
June 26 2015 11:36 GMT
#160
On June 25 2015 05:14 HewTheTitan wrote:
Show nested quote +
Ghost
•New Ability: Anti-Armor Drone

•Deploy a flying, destructible drone.

•Channels a beam on a single target that reduces its armor by 3.


I think they've lost it. They can no longer tell the difference between an interesting unit/mechanic and a mechanical one. It feels like a bot or some AI created this patch.

Doesn't it?


Its similar to the Immortal shield thing. Purely mechanical focussed without any interesting implications. I think that's probably a consequence of David Kim being the lead designer for Sc2 multiplayer for LOTV, whereas DB was the lead guy for WOL and HOTS.
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12387 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-26 11:50:36
June 26 2015 11:50 GMT
#161
On June 24 2015 11:03 Whitewing wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 24 2015 05:38 Edowyth wrote:
On June 20 2015 01:05 Lexender wrote:
You can have good Gateway units.

You can have warp gate.

But you can't have both.


I'd argue that this is obviously not true.

High Templar come from warp gates and are frequently considered one of the stronger units in the game.

The only key is that when warped in units can't be fully effective but after a grace period (the same as walking across the map or generating energy for storm) warp gate units can be just as strong as opponent's units if they're designed well.


Khaydarin Amulet was removed for exactly that reason: allowing a high templar to use it's spells immediately after warp-in was too strong.

plenty of units with immediate full-ish energy when built would be OP as well.
Oracle for example

You can still design a balanced strong unit even with the warp gate mechanics.
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
winsonsonho
Profile Joined October 2012
Korea (South)143 Posts
June 26 2015 12:38 GMT
#162
On June 26 2015 19:54 winsonsonho wrote:
Medivacs should have an upgrade to double the number of units they can carry and a separate upgrade for ability to repair mech. I have a feeling that Medivacs might still not be strong enough and in this case should get +100 hp.

The new upgraded Overlords should also be able to use Nydus or at least be able to burrow move.

The Disruptor should morph into a flying Reaver after it goes Nova.

These changes would totally balance the game and would solve the economy issues. I should work for Blizzard..


DK called me and said he's working on these changes as we...
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-01 00:17:43
June 30 2015 23:24 GMT
#163
The spore change is really bad for ZvZ. It's mostly back to mutawars, and if a player doesn't play mutas, it comes down to winning with a premuta timing which doesn't feel stronger than HotS-roach timings. Hence should be completely defendable for a mutaplayer.

The only way to not fall behind economically while playing macro is playing mutas yourself. In HotS you would counter that by getting a better army with roach/hydra/infestor which forced the other player to also play roaches, but with lurkers you can just counter that. And then lurkers force lurkers, so you mirror each other, just that as I said, the muta player has a mapcontrol and economical advantage.
And I feel like it was this way before the spore change already. Now you have to commit even harder to antiair which means an even weaker economy in comparison to the muta player.

oh, and if they don't find a balance where it is possible to play without mutas against medivacs I'm not going to play LotV. I'm more than fed up with playing the same style since 2010 minus that 1year break of actually being allowed to play infestors. It's not fun anymore (and the reason why I haven't touched HotS in months).
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
July 01 2015 01:42 GMT
#164
Err... Big J it sounds to me like you're saying it's relatively unchanged, but now mutas are actually a viable possibility as well in a certain point in the game.

The muta player always had map control and better economy. Isn't that what is supposed to happen? Hydras and lurkers are the powerful slow army, mutas are fast and mobile.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
July 01 2015 02:48 GMT
#165
On July 01 2015 10:42 DoubleReed wrote:
Err... Big J it sounds to me like you're saying it's relatively unchanged, but now mutas are actually a viable possibility as well in a certain point in the game.

The muta player always had map control and better economy. Isn't that what is supposed to happen? Hydras and lurkers are the powerful slow army, mutas are fast and mobile.


Right now I don't see the "powerful, slow army" being viable at all. You get no real army advantage from not opening mutas, due to the heavy commitment you need in antiair. While giving up mapcontrol and allowing your opponent to get ahead in the economy and often also the army tech, as you need to delay lurkers for more hydras and possibly even infestors.
I believe that opening mutas was already advantegous, but with the increased commitment you need for antiair now and the increased delay in lurkers it feels like the muta into lurker player just gets everything: economy, mapcontrol, harass, army. Maybe not upgrades, but they aren't that important with lurkers.
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