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On May 30 2015 10:27 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2015 10:24 chipmonklord17 wrote:On May 30 2015 04:44 avilo wrote:
Armory upgrades need to be combined. They need to put it back to normal. It's ludicrous not being able to have upgraded banshees/vikings and having to build 4 armories.
Same for turret b4 ebay change. Needs to go back.
Not too excited for LOTV if this is how the game is going. Exactly how? If you're zerg and want to go muta and anything on the ground you need 2 spires (because in this case you're considering only upgrading them at the same time) and 2 possibly 3 evos. If you're protoss and want to go ground and air you need to build 2 cyber cores and 2 possibly 3 forges. There is absolutely nothing wrong with needing to upgrade separate upgrades if you're making separate unit compositions. Its literally how the entire game works outside of mech ground/mech air in hots. 1.- Zergs don't need starports to build mutas, 1 spire and they can make mutas from all their hatch. 2.- Cyber cores, don't cost 100 gas
1) To upgrade the mutas you need spires, just like an armory. And spires cost gas before we go to that point
2) You must be kidding if you're seriously suggesting that upgrades should be combined because of a 400 gas (100 gas 4 times in this hypothetical) investment.
I'm curious
Poll: Should Mech Air/Ground upgrades be split?Yes, and I'm Terran (6) 14% Yes, and I'm not Terran (16) 37% No, and I'm Terran (13) 30% No, and I'm not Terran (8) 19% 43 total votes Your vote: Should Mech Air/Ground upgrades be split? (Vote): Yes, and I'm Terran
(Vote): Yes, and I'm not Terran
(Vote): No, and I'm Terran
(Vote): No, and I'm not Terran
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On May 30 2015 10:30 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2015 10:27 Lexender wrote:On May 30 2015 10:24 chipmonklord17 wrote:On May 30 2015 04:44 avilo wrote:
Armory upgrades need to be combined. They need to put it back to normal. It's ludicrous not being able to have upgraded banshees/vikings and having to build 4 armories.
Same for turret b4 ebay change. Needs to go back.
Not too excited for LOTV if this is how the game is going. Exactly how? If you're zerg and want to go muta and anything on the ground you need 2 spires (because in this case you're considering only upgrading them at the same time) and 2 possibly 3 evos. If you're protoss and want to go ground and air you need to build 2 cyber cores and 2 possibly 3 forges. There is absolutely nothing wrong with needing to upgrade separate upgrades if you're making separate unit compositions. Its literally how the entire game works outside of mech ground/mech air in hots. 1.- Zergs don't need starports to build mutas, 1 spire and they can make mutas from all their hatch. 2.- Cyber cores, don't cost 100 gas 1) To upgrade the mutas you need spires, just like an armory. And spires cost gas before we go to that point 2) You must be kidding if you're seriously suggesting that upgrades should be combined because of a 400 gas (100 gas 4 times in this hypothetical) investment. I'm curious Poll: Should Mech Air/Ground upgrades be split?Yes, and I'm Terran (6) 14% Yes, and I'm not Terran (16) 37% No, and I'm Terran (13) 30% No, and I'm not Terran (8) 19% 43 total votes Your vote: Should Mech Air/Ground upgrades be split? (Vote): Yes, and I'm Terran
(Vote): Yes, and I'm not Terran
(Vote): No, and I'm Terran
(Vote): No, and I'm not Terran
I'm not saying it is, there are other factors of course, the biggest problem with splitting upgrades isn't the strenght of mech, but its capacity to adapt, zerg have by far the best one, protoss have less but WG and CB helps them a ton, terran have by far the least capacity (as it has been pointed out numerous times in the thread) wich is why it doesn't matter if it makes mech weaker, nobody would played because bio will be 100% more efficient, and with the new economy nobody would even less.
Saddly this isn't BW factory units are awful by themselves, it isn't even a X race have Y so other races must too, theres a reason races don't work the same, but I will assure 100% nobody would mech outside of going mass cyclone because all the other mech facotry units are shit.
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Zerg has the easiest time switching techs and Zerg has the shittest units. Coincidence?
Mech is not easy to switch away from in-game but it wipes everything out on the ground as the ball moves. I thought that was the point.
The way I see it mech is viable enough in TvT and TvZ. I do not think it will ever be enough alone against P. Give that up and you will see that mech is not weak or dead.
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On May 30 2015 10:47 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2015 10:30 chipmonklord17 wrote:On May 30 2015 10:27 Lexender wrote:On May 30 2015 10:24 chipmonklord17 wrote:On May 30 2015 04:44 avilo wrote:
Armory upgrades need to be combined. They need to put it back to normal. It's ludicrous not being able to have upgraded banshees/vikings and having to build 4 armories.
Same for turret b4 ebay change. Needs to go back.
Not too excited for LOTV if this is how the game is going. Exactly how? If you're zerg and want to go muta and anything on the ground you need 2 spires (because in this case you're considering only upgrading them at the same time) and 2 possibly 3 evos. If you're protoss and want to go ground and air you need to build 2 cyber cores and 2 possibly 3 forges. There is absolutely nothing wrong with needing to upgrade separate upgrades if you're making separate unit compositions. Its literally how the entire game works outside of mech ground/mech air in hots. 1.- Zergs don't need starports to build mutas, 1 spire and they can make mutas from all their hatch. 2.- Cyber cores, don't cost 100 gas 1) To upgrade the mutas you need spires, just like an armory. And spires cost gas before we go to that point 2) You must be kidding if you're seriously suggesting that upgrades should be combined because of a 400 gas (100 gas 4 times in this hypothetical) investment. I'm curious Poll: Should Mech Air/Ground upgrades be split?Yes, and I'm Terran (6) 14% Yes, and I'm not Terran (16) 37% No, and I'm Terran (13) 30% No, and I'm not Terran (8) 19% 43 total votes Your vote: Should Mech Air/Ground upgrades be split? (Vote): Yes, and I'm Terran
(Vote): Yes, and I'm not Terran
(Vote): No, and I'm Terran
(Vote): No, and I'm not Terran
I'm not saying it is, there are other factors of course, the biggest problem with splitting upgrades isn't the strenght of mech, but its capacity to adapt, zerg have by far the best one, protoss have less but WG and CB helps them a ton, terran have by far the least capacity (as it has been pointed out numerous times in the thread) wich is why it doesn't matter if it makes mech weaker, nobody would played because bio will be 100% more efficient, and with the new economy nobody would even less. Saddly this isn't BW factory units are awful by themselves, it isn't even a X race have Y so other races must too, theres a reason races don't work the same, but I will assure 100% nobody would mech outside of going mass cyclone because all the other mech facotry units are shit.
Factory units are probably better than any other units in the game in a "by themselves" standpoint. They have absolutely anything you would need. Barracks units almost completely fall apart without medivacs, starport we have yet to really see it on its own. Skytoss is the only thing I could consider as being a better set of units than factory units. Factory units have space control, AoE, great GtA, great GtG, and tanks in both the literal and the hellbat
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On May 30 2015 10:30 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2015 10:27 Lexender wrote:On May 30 2015 10:24 chipmonklord17 wrote:On May 30 2015 04:44 avilo wrote:
Armory upgrades need to be combined. They need to put it back to normal. It's ludicrous not being able to have upgraded banshees/vikings and having to build 4 armories.
Same for turret b4 ebay change. Needs to go back.
Not too excited for LOTV if this is how the game is going. Exactly how? If you're zerg and want to go muta and anything on the ground you need 2 spires (because in this case you're considering only upgrading them at the same time) and 2 possibly 3 evos. If you're protoss and want to go ground and air you need to build 2 cyber cores and 2 possibly 3 forges. There is absolutely nothing wrong with needing to upgrade separate upgrades if you're making separate unit compositions. Its literally how the entire game works outside of mech ground/mech air in hots. 1.- Zergs don't need starports to build mutas, 1 spire and they can make mutas from all their hatch. 2.- Cyber cores, don't cost 100 gas 1) To upgrade the mutas you need spires, just like an armory. And spires cost gas before we go to that point 2) You must be kidding if you're seriously suggesting that upgrades should be combined because of a 400 gas (100 gas 4 times in this hypothetical) investment. I'm curious Poll: Should Mech Air/Ground upgrades be split?Yes, and I'm Terran (6) 14% Yes, and I'm not Terran (16) 37% No, and I'm Terran (13) 30% No, and I'm not Terran (8) 19% 43 total votes Your vote: Should Mech Air/Ground upgrades be split? (Vote): Yes, and I'm Terran
(Vote): Yes, and I'm not Terran
(Vote): No, and I'm Terran
(Vote): No, and I'm not Terran
I remember one upgrade was combined earlier? I think it was armor?
I think splitting up is a good thing, it makes mech to air transition far less just "build them air units".
I would love just the armor being combined again.
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On May 30 2015 11:17 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2015 10:30 chipmonklord17 wrote:On May 30 2015 10:27 Lexender wrote:On May 30 2015 10:24 chipmonklord17 wrote:On May 30 2015 04:44 avilo wrote:
Armory upgrades need to be combined. They need to put it back to normal. It's ludicrous not being able to have upgraded banshees/vikings and having to build 4 armories.
Same for turret b4 ebay change. Needs to go back.
Not too excited for LOTV if this is how the game is going. Exactly how? If you're zerg and want to go muta and anything on the ground you need 2 spires (because in this case you're considering only upgrading them at the same time) and 2 possibly 3 evos. If you're protoss and want to go ground and air you need to build 2 cyber cores and 2 possibly 3 forges. There is absolutely nothing wrong with needing to upgrade separate upgrades if you're making separate unit compositions. Its literally how the entire game works outside of mech ground/mech air in hots. 1.- Zergs don't need starports to build mutas, 1 spire and they can make mutas from all their hatch. 2.- Cyber cores, don't cost 100 gas 1) To upgrade the mutas you need spires, just like an armory. And spires cost gas before we go to that point 2) You must be kidding if you're seriously suggesting that upgrades should be combined because of a 400 gas (100 gas 4 times in this hypothetical) investment. I'm curious Poll: Should Mech Air/Ground upgrades be split?Yes, and I'm Terran (6) 14% Yes, and I'm not Terran (16) 37% No, and I'm Terran (13) 30% No, and I'm not Terran (8) 19% 43 total votes Your vote: Should Mech Air/Ground upgrades be split? (Vote): Yes, and I'm Terran
(Vote): Yes, and I'm not Terran
(Vote): No, and I'm Terran
(Vote): No, and I'm not Terran
I remember one upgrade was combined earlier? I think it was armor? I think splitting up is a good thing, it makes mech to air transition far less just "build them air units". I would love just the armor being combined again.
The way the patch notes were worded made it sound like they recombined armor (they didn't its all split). I'd prefer that blizzard tests it out this way and then combines armor again if need be, but I wouldn't be opposed to the idea.
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I really don't like the idea of a 'core' starport unit, which the liberator seems to be. Having a full-air composition be viable before the super-late game seems like a bad idea to me.
Honestly at this point there are just a few too many units in the game imo. Blizzard is kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place here, since they have to ship some new units with the expansion for all the 'casuals' who won't want to buy an expansion just for an updated economic system. Prime candidates for removal are Swarmhosts and tempests, with maybe void rays, infestors, collossi and even banshees too.
I guess they could accomplish this in kinda the same way it works in HotS now though, where nobody builds tempests or swarm hosts except in extremely rare cases.
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At least the Liberator's design is a bit more interesting than the brain-dead Cyclone.
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Guys.
*blah blah blah the liberator is overpowered... blah blah blah
*blah blah blah the liberator is underpowered... blah blah blah
Don't you realize it is a beta and its stats will be tweaked? Honestly some of you sound like you are going to quit the game because a beta unit is not quite like you want it at this moment.
Stop being drama-queens.
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I was so excited for LotV but now I understand why nobody plays, the changes they make are so bad. Its just fucking imposible to mech without turtling, thors are the worst AA ever, tanks still suck.
I think I'll just wait to see what blizzard does or if a pro finds a way to play because right now this is bull shit, seems like I'll have to keep playing HotS then.
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On May 30 2015 14:13 ElMeanYo wrote:
Guys.
*blah blah blah the liberator is overpowered... blah blah blah
*blah blah blah the liberator is underpowered... blah blah blah
Don't you realize it is a beta and its stats will be tweaked? Honestly some of you sound like you are going to quit the game because a beta unit is not quite like you want it at this moment.
Stop being drama-queens.
People are just frustrated that all Blizzard does is throw some toys at us instead of finally starting public experiments on core game mechanics. Given the dawning realization that Godot will never come and the fact that the new toy is even bugged to the point of working completely different than intended people are upset and need to bash something. So they bash the new toy.
Personally, I am upset because they refuse to make mech viable since WoL. With mech I mean positional play centered around the siege tank, not turtling with tanks until you reach a critical mass of ravens or thor/hellion amove timing pushes. I want to be able to slowly push across the map with carefully set up tanks, taking bases and being able to defend them while fending off harass and harassing myself, constantly trying to trade efficiently with my opponent trying to break the push. Unfortunately, tanks are a joke unit. They can't hold a position for their life in SC2. So what does Blizzard do? They give us a disposable single tank shot best used with bio (the mine). After that, they still don't adjust the tank, they give us a mech KITING unit, i.e. a long range bio unit from the factory. I want an alternative playstyle to bio and they give me a factory unit that is used like a bio unit and cannot hold a position as well. After that, they give the tank a new gimmick (medivac pickup) to turn it into a mobile harassment tool (???) instead of letting it do its job. After that, they give us a sky siege unit, instead of adjusting the tank.
So even if they ever make "mech" viable, it won't be the mech I (we?) wanted, but a ball of factory units cruising around the map in a protoss-like fashion like you already see it with cylcone/hellion armies.
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On May 30 2015 16:43 dust7 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2015 14:13 ElMeanYo wrote:
Guys.
*blah blah blah the liberator is overpowered... blah blah blah
*blah blah blah the liberator is underpowered... blah blah blah
Don't you realize it is a beta and its stats will be tweaked? Honestly some of you sound like you are going to quit the game because a beta unit is not quite like you want it at this moment.
Stop being drama-queens. People are just frustrated that all Blizzard does is throw some toys at us instead of finally starting public experiments on core game mechanics. Given the dawning realization that Godot will never come and the fact that the new toy is even bugged to the point of working completely different than intended people are upset and need to bash something. So they bash the new toy. Personally, I am upset because they refuse to make mech viable since WoL. With mech I mean positional play centered around the siege tank, not turtling with tanks until you reach a critical mass of ravens or thor/hellion amove timing pushes. I want to be able to slowly push across the map with carefully set up tanks, taking bases and being able to defend them while fending off harass and harassing myself, constantly trying to trade efficiently with my opponent trying to break the push. Unfortunately, tanks are a joke unit. They can't hold a position for their life in SC2. So what does Blizzard do? They give us a disposable single tank shot best used with bio (the mine). After that, they still don't adjust the tank, they give us a mech KITING unit, i.e. a long range bio unit from the factory. After that, they give the tank a new gimmick (medivac pickup) to turn it into a mobile harassment tool (???) instead of letting it do its job. After that, they give us a sky siege unit, instead of adjusting the tank.
You are perfectly well aware that if Blizzard messed with the core mechanics, people would also be up in arms. There. Is. No. Pleasing. This. Crowd. That's why Blizzard doesn't listen to us. Because no matter what they do, it's wrong. I really don't see how you guys don't see this.
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On May 30 2015 17:03 ohmylanta1003 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2015 16:43 dust7 wrote:On May 30 2015 14:13 ElMeanYo wrote:
Guys.
*blah blah blah the liberator is overpowered... blah blah blah
*blah blah blah the liberator is underpowered... blah blah blah
Don't you realize it is a beta and its stats will be tweaked? Honestly some of you sound like you are going to quit the game because a beta unit is not quite like you want it at this moment.
Stop being drama-queens. People are just frustrated that all Blizzard does is throw some toys at us instead of finally starting public experiments on core game mechanics. Given the dawning realization that Godot will never come and the fact that the new toy is even bugged to the point of working completely different than intended people are upset and need to bash something. So they bash the new toy. Personally, I am upset because they refuse to make mech viable since WoL. With mech I mean positional play centered around the siege tank, not turtling with tanks until you reach a critical mass of ravens or thor/hellion amove timing pushes. I want to be able to slowly push across the map with carefully set up tanks, taking bases and being able to defend them while fending off harass and harassing myself, constantly trying to trade efficiently with my opponent trying to break the push. Unfortunately, tanks are a joke unit. They can't hold a position for their life in SC2. So what does Blizzard do? They give us a disposable single tank shot best used with bio (the mine). After that, they still don't adjust the tank, they give us a mech KITING unit, i.e. a long range bio unit from the factory. After that, they give the tank a new gimmick (medivac pickup) to turn it into a mobile harassment tool (???) instead of letting it do its job. After that, they give us a sky siege unit, instead of adjusting the tank. You are perfectly well aware that if Blizzard messed with the core mechanics, people would also be up in arms. There. Is. No. Pleasing. This. Crowd. That's why Blizzard doesn't listen to us. Because no matter what they do, it's wrong. I really don't see how you guys don't see this.
No matter what you do, there will always be some people you can never satisfy which won't stop to bitch and moan. However, I think you are oversimplifying things when you say that this is all which is going on here.
At the start of the LotV beta, people were very positive and complimented blizzard for the new direction they seemed to be going in at that time. They even seemed to communicate better with the community and be open to experiments and even the most critical and shortsighted people (avilo, anyone?) cut them some slack.
So no, I don't agree with you that people would be up in arms if blizzard started to do what they promised to do with the LotV beta. There would just be the small minority of people who are never satisfied - but you won't get 50%+ for "I don't like the direction they are going in" in votes.
I also don't believe people would be up in arms if Blizzard said "Hey guys, we have this rework for warpgate on our table. It strengthens the gateway, weakens warpgate-centered all-ins and would allow us to rework some gateway units. We have no idea if this rework could work, how about we test it out for three weeks in the beta?".
But this is not how Blizzard communicates. They communicate like this:
"Yeah, we totally tried out your suggestions* internally, but they did not feel right."
*on the economy, 3-base-cap, warpgate, unit clumping, slower battles, positional play, etc.
Are they kidding? Did not feel right? What the hell is this supposed to mean? I want a better justification than that if they want to keep mechanics that have been complained about since the dawn of WoL Alpha. This is why people are up in arms.
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I love watching TvP now, way better than hots one.
The nerf to marauder, the Adept with disruptor I think have nailed it.
All the engagements are intense and very dynamic
I think terran can get a buff somewhere but right now it's awesome to watch.
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On May 30 2015 10:57 usethis2 wrote:
Zerg has the easiest time switching techs and Zerg has the shittest units. Coincidence?
Mech is not easy to switch away from in-game but it wipes everything out on the ground as the ball moves. I thought that was the point.
The way I see it mech is viable enough in TvT and TvZ. I do not think it will ever be enough alone against P. Give that up and you will see that mech is not weak or dead.
Well at least someone understands this.
On May 30 2015 17:56 ETisME wrote:
I love watching TvP now, way better than hots one.
The nerf to marauder, the Adept with disruptor I think have nailed it.
All the engagements are intense and very dynamic
I think terran can get a buff somewhere but right now it's awesome to watch.
To be honest I enjoy watching every match-up more than HotS. A lot more options, still a lot of unexplored stuff, less cheeses and all-ins but they are still there and some new appeared, they are just not as dominant.
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When are they going to revert the stasis ward so you can manually activate it again? what a stupid change...
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On May 30 2015 20:20 rpgalon wrote:
When are they going to revert the stasis ward so you can manually activate it again? what a stupid change...
It isn't stupid change. Just think about it for a little bit and you will realize how abused it can be if you could manually detonate it.
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On May 30 2015 20:33 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2015 20:20 rpgalon wrote:
When are they going to revert the stasis ward so you can manually activate it again? what a stupid change...
It isn't stupid change. Just think about it for a little bit and you will realize how abused it can be if you could manually detonate it.
I did, and still don't see it.
Have you played with it or watched games with the stasis before this change? It was not only fine but good to watch and fun to play with, the reason blizzard made this change:
"We’re seeing certain strategies with the Oracle’s Stasis ability where players are stacking the ability several times, and then manually detonating them over time to indefinitely leave units in Stasis. With our focus on constant combat, this is obviously something that we have no desire for and this change should effectively end this behavior."
There is a lot of better ways to resolve this issue without completely removing many interesting mechanics the stasis had.
EDIT:
few examples of better solutions:
-Make stasis ward detonate other stasis in it's radius when it is activated.
-Give units a stasis imunity for some time after being affected by it.
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On May 30 2015 15:04 Lexender wrote:
I was so excited for LotV but now I understand why nobody plays, the changes they make are so bad. Its just fucking imposible to mech without turtling, thors are the worst AA ever, tanks still suck.
I think I'll just wait to see what blizzard does or if a pro finds a way to play because right now this is bull shit, seems like I'll have to keep playing HotS then.
it was impossible to mech without turtling in broodwar....
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I don't like that Terran gets another unit that can shoot both air and ground
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EPT
