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On May 29 2015 13:58 Lexender wrote:
I have no idea how to mech now, without heavy turtling you just die to everything, you need banshees, vikings and medivacs to be out on the map, other wise the only thing you can do is sit behind tanks, thors and turrets, the only other option is to get cyclones but getting a fusion core an armory and 2 upgrades takes some time, so more turtling.
I'll keep playing and wait to see what the pros do, but right now meching seems really hard without air units.
beside that im having trouble with the upgrades, i feel right now you need to decide go full attack or full armor (mostly attack) ... although i just played few games
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If being able to shoot in other target circles is a bug, the liberator is worthless. Costs too much and does too little.
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seens like the fact that liberators can shoot in the area set up by other liberators within their range is not intended; and that's about the only good thing about liberators.
At my level though i think liberator is amazing against mass muta in TvZ. thors are slow and mutas can still deal huge amount of damage before they can defend and it's hard to expand further than the 3rd because of the mobility of mutas. But liberator are actually very mobile even if slower than mutas, it's possible to quickly go defend an expo from mass mutas. Andi t allows to keep massing more tanks/hellions on the ground without the fear of air switches wrecking everything.
For the ground upgrade I think it's just a bonus, it's nice at supporting tanks and controlling choke points, i prefer banshees for harass. I don't think the mass liberator supernova displayed yesterday would work against similar skilled players (I even got matched against him even though i am silver/gold league usually). But he showed that if you go above a base with 4-5 libe and set up the target areas all over it, there is little anyone can do to reclaim the base, although simple static defenses are great against them.
Also i don't like the upgrade split. Mech only really shines with air support be it viking / liberators / ravens. Now to do tank-viking you need like 1000+ more gas worth of upgrades, and even more if you consider building 4 armories. This encourages to turtle even longer than before while waiting to have both air and mech upgrades.
Air alone is not viable. mech alone could be viable if the cyclone could shoot up earlier. Meanwhile protoss share the same upgrade for zealots/stalker/immo/colo (like merged bio/mech upgrades), this makes no sense.
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Can the Liberator attack uprooted Spore and Spine Crawlers? Or are these still considered to be buildings?
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On May 30 2015 00:04 RoomOfMush wrote:
Can the Liberator attack uprooted Spore and Spine Crawlers? Or are these still considered to be buildings?
still building, same as killing the last uprooted spine a zerg has with no other buildings will win you the game
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On May 29 2015 23:54 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote:
At my level though i think liberator is amazing against mass muta in TvZ. thors are slow and mutas can still deal huge amount of damage before they can defend and it's hard to expand further than the 3rd because of the mobility of mutas. But liberator are actually very mobile even if slower than mutas, it's possible to quickly go defend an expo from mass mutas. Andi t allows to keep massing more tanks/hellions on the ground without the fear of air switches wrecking everything.
Thors do more damage at double the range and can effectively soak banelings even at the pro level and 1 Thor is cheaper than 2 liberators. Thors still win I think.
I'm trying to imagine an anti-lurker use case, but realistically you need Thor support for that to work. And if you added a tl factory for Thors you wouldn't be adding a TL port for valks.
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Liberators attack much faster and have three times the splash radius of a thor.
2 Liberators:
300/300/4
15.56 dps, 1.5 splash radius
1 Thor
300/200/6
16 dps, .5 splash radius
(All dps numbers in old Blizzard time, not real time).
To put it in perspective, Storm has radius 1.5, so the Liberator's splash is quite significant.
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On May 30 2015 00:53 Athenau wrote:
Liberators attack much faster and have three times the splash radius of a thor.
2 Liberators:
300/300/4
15.56 dps, 1.5 splash radius
1 Thor
300/200/6
16 dps, .5 splash radius
(All dps numbers in old Blizzard time, not real time).
To put it in perspective, Storm has radius 1.5, so the Liberator's splash is quite significant.
In your example, the Thor costs 100 less gas, has 40 more HP and 1 more native armor, and naturally won't get his DPS halved when he loses 180 HP. The Thor can also be useful in other capacities en route to the air threat or once the air threat has been neutralized, without needing a 200/200 upgrade.
I'm extremely curious to see if the Liberator will find a home, and whether it can do so with the current numbers.
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Also i don't like the upgrade split. Mech only really shines with air support be it viking / liberators / ravens. Now to do tank-viking you need like 1000+ more gas worth of upgrades, and even more if you consider building 4 armories. This encourages to turtle even longer than before while waiting to have both air and mech upgrades.
Your making too much sense here. On the other hand, if you follow David Kim's logic, diversity will be increased when diversity is nerfed! Check out what he writes below:
It will be difficult to upgrade all three of the Barracks, Factory, and Starport tech routes, so we’re hoping to see a good variety of mixed tech units"
Seriosuly, it's like every other time he writes or says something its nonsense (remember the Double Harvest comment or his response to Lalush on micro?)
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Maybe Lib's AA should double the damage, twice the attacking speed to make it the same DPS. Right now it takes 8 Libs to one shot Mutas. That a freaking alot of investment just to get harrassment out your base.
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On May 30 2015 01:01 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2015 00:53 Athenau wrote:
Liberators attack much faster and have three times the splash radius of a thor.
2 Liberators:
300/300/4
15.56 dps, 1.5 splash radius
1 Thor
300/200/6
16 dps, .5 splash radius
(All dps numbers in old Blizzard time, not real time).
To put it in perspective, Storm has radius 1.5, so the Liberator's splash is quite significant. In your example, the Thor costs 100 less gas, has 40 more HP and 1 more native armor, and naturally won't get his DPS halved when he loses 180 HP. The Thor can also be useful in other capacities en route to the air threat or once the air threat has been neutralized, without needing a 200/200 upgrade. I'm extremely curious to see if the Liberator will find a home, and whether it can do so with the current numbers.
Dont forget thors also have double the range of liberators which is huge.
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In your example, the Thor costs 100 less gas, has 40 more HP and 1 more native armor, and naturally won't get his DPS halved when he loses 180 HP. The Thor can also be useful in other capacities en route to the air threat or once the air threat has been neutralized, without needing a 200/200 upgrade.
On the other hand, Liberators are much faster (as fast as stim bio), fly, and can kite back to your marines/turrets/mines quite effectively.
I'm extremely curious to see if the Liberator will find a home, and whether it can do so with the current numbers.
I think the raw combat stats will stay the same. They might tweak the siege/unsiege time after the shared targeting bug goes away, and they'll probably make the upgrade cheaper as well.
I saw a couple of TheSTC games where he used them effectively with bio vs both Protoss and Zerg, so there is promise there.
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United Kingdom12023 Posts
So as someone without the beta, is the liberator kind of like a valkyrie in the air or is it not as good?
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I don't get it, they put a new unit in the game but forget to enable it so you can change the hotkey of their abiliies?.... come on...
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I like the liberator for its flexibility, from the few games I've played against T, it seems like it's never a bad idea to make 3 liberators, you get excellent defense vs muta opening, and if there are no mutas then they can control space really well and helps with ground attacks too. I guess I'm comparing it to the viking where if there are no more enemy air units they become rather useless, where the liberator is always useful even when enemy air units are gone.
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On May 30 2015 00:08 TheWinks wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2015 23:54 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote:
At my level though i think liberator is amazing against mass muta in TvZ. thors are slow and mutas can still deal huge amount of damage before they can defend and it's hard to expand further than the 3rd because of the mobility of mutas. But liberator are actually very mobile even if slower than mutas, it's possible to quickly go defend an expo from mass mutas. Andi t allows to keep massing more tanks/hellions on the ground without the fear of air switches wrecking everything. Thors do more damage at double the range and can effectively soak banelings even at the pro level and 1 Thor is cheaper than 2 liberators. Thors still win I think. I'm trying to imagine an anti-lurker use case, but realistically you need Thor support for that to work. And if you added a tl factory for Thors you wouldn't be adding a TL port for valks.
Yes but I was saying for my silver/gold league level. It already take me some time to react so then even if the thor is not so far, after a mass muta attack a base the time for me to send it there all the base will be done for already. It's much morep ractical with liberators and the magic box don't work so well on them due to their higher splash. Also it's not as easy to be caught off position like with thors and you can actually retreat.
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On May 30 2015 01:03 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +It will be difficult to upgrade all three of the Barracks, Factory, and Starport tech routes, so we’re hoping to see a good variety of mixed tech units" Seriosuly, it's like every other time he writes or says something its nonsense (remember the Double Harvest comment or his response to Lalush on micro?)
Variety as in, different unit composition from game to game.
Not variety as in, a composition of a few Barracks units, a few Factory units and a few Starport units.
1,1,1 every single game is not game variety.
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On May 30 2015 02:53 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2015 01:03 Hider wrote:It will be difficult to upgrade all three of the Barracks, Factory, and Starport tech routes, so we’re hoping to see a good variety of mixed tech units" Seriosuly, it's like every other time he writes or says something its nonsense (remember the Double Harvest comment or his response to Lalush on micro?) Variety as in, different unit composition from game to game. Not variety as in, a composition of a few Barracks units, a few Factory units and a few Starport units. 1,1,1 every single game is not game variety.
Because every game of HOTS devolved into 1,1,1, right?
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On May 30 2015 03:10 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2015 02:53 ejozl wrote:On May 30 2015 01:03 Hider wrote:It will be difficult to upgrade all three of the Barracks, Factory, and Starport tech routes, so we’re hoping to see a good variety of mixed tech units" Seriosuly, it's like every other time he writes or says something its nonsense (remember the Double Harvest comment or his response to Lalush on micro?) Variety as in, different unit composition from game to game. Not variety as in, a composition of a few Barracks units, a few Factory units and a few Starport units. 1,1,1 every single game is not game variety. Because every game of HOTS devolved into 1,1,1, right?
Totally
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On May 30 2015 03:17 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2015 03:10 pure.Wasted wrote:On May 30 2015 02:53 ejozl wrote:On May 30 2015 01:03 Hider wrote:It will be difficult to upgrade all three of the Barracks, Factory, and Starport tech routes, so we’re hoping to see a good variety of mixed tech units" Seriosuly, it's like every other time he writes or says something its nonsense (remember the Double Harvest comment or his response to Lalush on micro?) Variety as in, different unit composition from game to game. Not variety as in, a composition of a few Barracks units, a few Factory units and a few Starport units. 1,1,1 every single game is not game variety. Because every game of HOTS devolved into 1,1,1, right? Totally
I'm glad we agree that the power and prevalence of 1,1,1 is so disconcerting in this meta, that mech and air upgrades should be split to prevent it while mech to air transitions are being ostensibly encouraged, on the off chance that it becomes a problem which we could have actually made certain of by waiting a little bit because this is, as it so happens, a beta.
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EPT
