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On May 29 2015 07:40 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2015 03:39 MockHamill wrote:On May 29 2015 03:03 bigbadgreen wrote:
I think the combined mech upgrades made terran a bit too adaptable. They could combine them again but it should either have a slightly longer build time or cost a bit more. With the split they are going about it in a round about way. You don't need 4 armories going at once, it forces a choice. Zerg has all of their upgrades split. I'm not advocating to combine zerg upgrades here but it would be similar if upgrading ranged attack for ground also upgraded air attack as well. I think it should stay split to force a priority choice by the player based on what he is seeing from his opponent. Terran is already the race the have the hardest time tech switching. They cannot suddenly switch between marines, tanks and viking depending on what they scout. Having 6 upgrades instead of 4 will make it even harder. Terran is also a race that needs to tech switch the least out of all three races. There is a reason that they can't do it easily.
Yeah, and what happens when the community says "we're tired of Terran not needing to tech switch" and Blizzard says "OK, 20 armor Ultralisks"?
Blizzard wants mech to be a playstyle in LOTV, right? But do they intend for Factory mech to be essentially self-sufficient, or do they want a transition from Factory mech to Skyterran? It's an open question at this point, I don't think they themselves know (which isn't wrong for this stage of beta), but it means we have to keep an open mind.
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It's impossible for them to be able to control exactly what they want players to do, but the point is that they want Terran to not sit on the same Upgrade path the entire game.
If all techs are the same upgrades, then Terran quickly find the most versatile of unit compositions and do that every game with few mixing in of units.
With split up upgrades, getting the upgrade because one unit is absolutely essential, suddenly opens up an entire new tech path and we can hope for transitions to be viable in the matchups.
The engi bay->turret is aswell a smaller version of this. It opens builds where going for only 1 engi bay can be surperior to both going double engi bay, or none at all. It's the same way with the Armory because it allows Hellbats/Thors/the new Liberator Upgrade.
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how big is the liberator's air attack splash radius exactly? also, how does the ground targeting work, can it target in other liberator's red circles? also why does it have zero base armor when it has an armored tag? That makes no sense.
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On May 29 2015 08:54 Loccstana wrote:
how big is the liberator's air attack splash radius exactly? also, how does the ground targeting work, can it target in other liberator's red circles? also why does it have zero base armor when it has an armored tag? That makes no sense.
From what I've seen, it has bigger splash radius than a Thor. On that preview video they are even killing some Air units that aren't so clumped up.
It can target in other Liberator's red circles.
Not sure about 0 armor, that is strange indeed. It's like that they were experimenting with them being light and then forgot to add that 1 armor later when they have turned them into armored. Or it is just an experimentation, armored units with 0 armor.
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On May 29 2015 08:35 ejozl wrote:
It's impossible for them to be able to control exactly what they want players to do, but the point is that they want Terran to not sit on the same Upgrade path the entire game.
If all techs are the same upgrades, then Terran quickly find the most versatile of unit compositions and do that every game with few mixing in of units.
With split up upgrades, getting the upgrade because one unit is absolutely essential, suddenly opens up an entire new tech path and we can hope for transitions to be viable in the matchups.
Your concern seems misplaced when bio and Factory mech upgrades - the two upgrade paths that represent the two plausible, independent unit compositions - have always remained perfectly independent of each other. The only thing up for debate is the ease of mech transitions into Skyterran. At the same time, we know so little about LOTV that transitioning might be easy already (thanks to new timings, Cyclones, Liberators, whatever).
It's curious that Blizzard felt the need to separate the upgrades, though.
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I wish they would let the cyclone defend against air early on.... proxy anything that flies tvp is all but impossible to hold without marines and or vikings.... when did flying units become considered mech? the broodwar players will attest this is not what we grew up loving and obsessing over. maybe the cyclones special ability needs to be replaced with something else...... tvp mech is really frustrating early game right now.....
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On May 28 2015 04:17 IntoTheheart wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2015 04:14 KingAlphard wrote:
How can corruption be autocasted when you have to target a unit with that ability? Doesn't make sense at all. It'll probably work like they did in WC3, where eligible targets just get auto-corrupted.
That is just a silly design. Autocast spells in WC3 were all ridiculous as well.
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On May 29 2015 09:05 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2015 08:54 Loccstana wrote:
how big is the liberator's air attack splash radius exactly? also, how does the ground targeting work, can it target in other liberator's red circles? also why does it have zero base armor when it has an armored tag? That makes no sense. From what I've seen, it has bigger splash radius than a Thor. On that preview video they are even killing some Air units that aren't so clumped up. It can target in other Liberator's red circles. Not sure about 0 armor, that is strange indeed. It's like that they were experimenting with them being light and then forgot to add that 1 armor later when they have turned them into armored. Or it is just an experimentation, armored units with 0 armor.
I want to remind you guys that the Liberator is not the only air Unit that has 0 Armor. Vikings and Void Rays have it too. Altough the Viking could need it too to make it closer to the Goliath (bit more expensive but still). Vikings are flying Goliaths anyway. Don´t know about Void Rays tough. Their DPS is insane. I have seen them owning even light Units when they are in low numbers.
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I find it really strange that the liberator cant target buildings. Its ground attack does regular damage, not spell damage correct? This should be a bug that blizzard needs to fix immediately. Also, I dont agree with separating the air and ground upgrades. Maybe at least ground and air should share attack upgrades.]
Also, the transparency of the ground target indicator should be increased. Right now it really makes things difficult to see underneath.
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On May 29 2015 07:52 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2015 07:40 Ramiz1989 wrote:On May 29 2015 03:39 MockHamill wrote:On May 29 2015 03:03 bigbadgreen wrote:
I think the combined mech upgrades made terran a bit too adaptable. They could combine them again but it should either have a slightly longer build time or cost a bit more. With the split they are going about it in a round about way. You don't need 4 armories going at once, it forces a choice. Zerg has all of their upgrades split. I'm not advocating to combine zerg upgrades here but it would be similar if upgrading ranged attack for ground also upgraded air attack as well. I think it should stay split to force a priority choice by the player based on what he is seeing from his opponent. Terran is already the race the have the hardest time tech switching. They cannot suddenly switch between marines, tanks and viking depending on what they scout. Having 6 upgrades instead of 4 will make it even harder. Terran is also a race that needs to tech switch the least out of all three races. There is a reason that they can't do it easily. Yeah, and what happens when the community says "we're tired of Terran not needing to tech switch" and Blizzard says "OK, 20 armor Ultralisks"? Blizzard wants mech to be a playstyle in LOTV, right? But do they intend for Factory mech to be essentially self-sufficient, or do they want a transition from Factory mech to Skyterran? It's an open question at this point, I don't think they themselves know (which isn't wrong for this stage of beta), but it means we have to keep an open mind.
They've stated that each form of terran is self sufficient, or at least that that is their goal. And so what if you want to transition from factory to skyterran? Then you do what every protoss does and throw down starports and start upgrading. If protoss aren't impeded by the fact that their ground and air upgrades are separate terran won't either.
EDIT: For reference here is where they say that they find the starport units to be on their own
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/19254692/legacy-of-the-void-beta-balance-update-preview-may-21-5-21-2015
EDIT 2: Also I don't have the beta but from the sounds of it its just weapons. Vehicle plating sounds like its shared, this is even less of a big deal than I thought
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On May 29 2015 11:27 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2015 07:52 pure.Wasted wrote:On May 29 2015 07:40 Ramiz1989 wrote:On May 29 2015 03:39 MockHamill wrote:On May 29 2015 03:03 bigbadgreen wrote:
I think the combined mech upgrades made terran a bit too adaptable. They could combine them again but it should either have a slightly longer build time or cost a bit more. With the split they are going about it in a round about way. You don't need 4 armories going at once, it forces a choice. Zerg has all of their upgrades split. I'm not advocating to combine zerg upgrades here but it would be similar if upgrading ranged attack for ground also upgraded air attack as well. I think it should stay split to force a priority choice by the player based on what he is seeing from his opponent. Terran is already the race the have the hardest time tech switching. They cannot suddenly switch between marines, tanks and viking depending on what they scout. Having 6 upgrades instead of 4 will make it even harder. Terran is also a race that needs to tech switch the least out of all three races. There is a reason that they can't do it easily. Yeah, and what happens when the community says "we're tired of Terran not needing to tech switch" and Blizzard says "OK, 20 armor Ultralisks"? Blizzard wants mech to be a playstyle in LOTV, right? But do they intend for Factory mech to be essentially self-sufficient, or do they want a transition from Factory mech to Skyterran? It's an open question at this point, I don't think they themselves know (which isn't wrong for this stage of beta), but it means we have to keep an open mind. They've stated that each form of terran is self sufficient, or at least that that is their goal. And so what if you want to transition from factory to skyterran? Then you do what every protoss does and throw down starports and start upgrading. If protoss aren't impeded by the fact that their ground and air upgrades are separate terran won't either. EDIT: For reference here is where they say that they find the starport units to be on their own http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/19254692/legacy-of-the-void-beta-balance-update-preview-may-21-5-21-2015
Cyber core doesn't cost gas, also gateway/robo units are very self suficient, facotry units aren't, at least not enough.
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I've watched a lot of people play with this unit and I can't help but feel it is just a unit that covers area on the ground like tanks should and does good splash like thors should. They should have just not made this unit, and made tanks and thors do what they are designed to do. Tanks should be stronger at locking down areas and thors should be a little smaller and more mobile. Instead of fixing those units that added a new weird one.
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Are Liberators supposed to be able to shoot in another's circle radius thing?
Because that's the way it works right now.
E.g. Liberator A casts radius. Liberator B casts radius that doesn't overlap. Liberator A can shoot into Liberator B's radius, and vice versa.
edit: confirmed bug:
Kelphe
Quality Assurance
Posts: 3,379
Hi everyone,
This is indeed a bug and not intentional. We're looking to resolve this in a future update. Thanks for your reports!
-Kelphe
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are they serious? like why would attack range be greater than cast range if they didn't intend for that (see above)
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I have no idea how to mech now, without heavy turtling you just die to everything, you need banshees, vikings and medivacs to be out on the map, other wise the only thing you can do is sit behind tanks, thors and turrets, the only other option is to get cyclones but getting a fusion core an armory and 2 upgrades takes some time, so more turtling.
I'll keep playing and wait to see what the pros do, but right now meching seems really hard without air units.
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I've played several games to specifically test the "Liberator". After 4 games (2 Protoss and 2 Zerg) I feel this unit is a mixed bag with little place in the game: It doesn't know how to harass, it is too late for mid game and it cannot be meta. Here are my reasons: 1) The tech path is too long so the potential to harass is hilarious: You need a Starport + Reactor + Amory. Then you need to research its ability to attack ground which takes 200/200. I might as well proxy BC at this point. 2) Once the unit is finally complete, it is too fragile for the mid-game. I am dominating a Protoss after early harass in the probe line with helions, so I decide to keep the aggression on with the "Liberator". Turns out, Nexus cannon shuts it completely down. Why wouldn't I just want to go with a Banshee, instead of losing this crappy unit to it's 10 minutes transformation (in game 3 seconds, but that is a lifetime in sc2). Finally, the meta game: All those pictures of the "Liberators" promo are misleading. I actually played a Protoss who decided to counter mass void rays. Turns out all you need to do is spread voidrays to utterly destroy this unit (same as mutas) and any competent player can do this.
If this post seems like I am upset, it is because I am. Terran hasn't received a true mid/late game unit since the inception of WoL. With HOTS, they just built on existing units like the reaper or removing research for the siege tank or medivac speed. It is getting disgusting how little they have changed the race. The irony is, I won 3/4 games in this critique, but it is because I TRANSITIONED TO HOTS UNITS. Again, I see little place for this unit until they drastically adjust the tech tree or change the transformation time.
EDIT: Also I would be happy to post the replays, but many times it is not viewed b/c many people don't have a beta key. But I will post on request.
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On May 29 2015 12:49 _Darwin_ wrote:
Are Liberators supposed to be able to shoot in another's circle radius thing?
Because that's the way it works right now.
E.g. Liberator A casts radius. Liberator B casts radius that doesn't overlap. Liberator A can shoot into Liberator B's radius, and vice versa.
edit: confirmed bug:
Kelphe
Quality Assurance
Posts: 3,379
Hi everyone,
This is indeed a bug and not intentional. We're looking to resolve this in a future update. Thanks for your reports!
-Kelphe
OOooohhhh, now it makes sense. So all this 15 range is just a placeholder to say "anywhere in the spotted circle", while in practice even the farthest part of the spotted area is not close to 15 units away. The range could just as well be 100, and it'd be the same, as they can only shoot inside the circle anyway.
That also means that they don't scale non-linearly as the bugged version does, where you can build 20 (only 40 supply, lulz) and essentially allow all liberators to shoot everywhere.
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Watched some Koreans pros streaming games with the liberator and here is my impression of it:
In its current state, the liberator is pretty much useless in its anti air role. The low damage per shot, dps and range of its air attack means it is terrible against high hp units (capital ships, voidrays), units with high armor (corruptor, capital ships also), or units with long range (viking, range upgraded phoenix). The only units it is somewhat effective against are mutalisks, however that is only when the opponent clumps them together. If the opponent does some basic micro and spreads out his mutas before attacking, the mutas will win when the muta/liberator ratio exceeds 2. Furthermore, due to its low damage, the liberator is great at wounding mutas but bad at actually killing them. Frequently, the zerg player will snipe a liberator with the mutas, fly them away and wait for a few seconds for the health regen before attacking again. I can see the liberator being used to complement marines against stacked mass muta, but the widow mine already performs this role at a much lower cost.
The ground attack is more useful but still is a situational weapon that must be supported by other units. It is good at holding chokes or attacking relatively immobile units like lurkers, siege tanks, and swarm hosts. When out in the open against more mobile units like stalkers or roaches, it is very easy for these units to dodge the areas targeted by the liberators, thus requiring heavy micro by the player to constantly reposition the target circles. The liberator also does a lot of overkill against low hp units, so it is ineffective against small units like marines or zerglings. Strangely, it does not attack buildings, which is a bug that needs to be fixed immediately.
Summary: The liberator, as of right now, clearly does not fulfill the anti-air role Blizzard intended it for. It performs its anti-ground satisfactorily, but requires heavy micro and a balanced supporting army composition to achieve maximum effectiveness. Overall I like the design of the liberator in its anti-ground role, but the anti-air role really needs to be looked at and improved.
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On May 29 2015 13:58 Lexender wrote:
I have no idea how to mech now, without heavy turtling you just die to everything, you need banshees, vikings and medivacs to be out on the map, other wise the only thing you can do is sit behind tanks, thors and turrets, the only other option is to get cyclones but getting a fusion core an armory and 2 upgrades takes some time, so more turtling.
I'll keep playing and wait to see what the pros do, but right now meching seems really hard without air units.
I don't have beta, I am no good at this game, and I don't even play terran. Nonetheless:
I thought people used hellions to stay active with mech?
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Btw guys, in French the liberator is called the "Croiseur", which is French for "cruiser". It suggests that the ship is indeed a big one, hence matching the model :D.
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EPT
