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On May 15 2015 04:26 JCoto wrote:
However, even with Stalkers being considered "shit" they are the origin of a ton of complaints when paired with Sentries.
You can buff them in damage like Dragoons and see what happens. Wanna try? ^^
I would do that anytime, if only tanks were given their BW damage back. Where a tank OS a dragoon; they take like 5 shots to kill a stalker ;O
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On May 15 2015 21:43 JCoto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2015 21:21 BiiG-Fr wrote:
Hi,
As terran bio player, what's the best answer to an adept opening or an adept heavy composition?
I tried marauder, mine or hellbat, and nothing seems to work, especially in mid-game with heavy adept composition.
Bio is meant to fail in direct engagements against Adepts, specially once the macrogame evolves and upgrades start to be added. Adepts are damn tanky in their actual state, destroy marines, and Marauders lose in straigth fights to Adepts since Adepts can tank much more and Guardian shields block a ton of damage from Marauders. If you are going to try Bio, experiment with Ghosts and EMP, because it is the only theroticall response to Adepts, considering EMP, snipes and bonus damage vs light, so a few Ghost as support units could help against a ball of Adepts. Ghosts are available very early in the Teerran tech tree, even if they are costly. It is also very interesting since no-one seems to have tried it. Bio with some support of mines and Hellbatdrops can work relatively decent in trades pre-upgrade, but once Adepts are upgraded and Templars/ Disruptors come in, start praying for Protoss to be greedy and mess up with macro. But definitely, Mech is the brained answer. Blue flame, Banshees, and Cyclones.And Harass and macro like crazy, and have a good luck. And Pray. Bio doesn't work well against Adepts in the same way that Pure Gateway units fail against MMM in HotS, specially as upgrades kick in. The Karma is a funny thing. 5 years dealing with MMM and how it restricted Protoss play to obvious need of AoE and playing in disadvantage of cost efficiency, now Protoss has an OP infantry, Terran has no other way to win than all-in, outplaying the opponent by far,to build a very focused counter-army or outmacro, because Protoss can abuse of relatively efficient, countering units. Roles reversed.
Yeah, adding a couple of Hellbats to your bio force is the good option vs adept heavy composition.
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My only question is what is Terran supposed to do vs. early Adept play? It's like a super reaper in your base that can bypass frontal defenses and have a ridiculous escape mechanic as well.
And by "Terran" I mean what the hell is any race supposed to do? They are tanky to the point that when I go for heavy Queens, they get stomped, Zerglings get stomped and Roaches get stomped by them in low numbers considering they almost have the same HP as a Roach.
It's beta of course so things are going to go through their overpowered and underpowered swings but as far as I can tell watching pro games and playing 10-15 games a day Adepts are pretty absurdly strong and definitely abusable at the moment. Would appreciate Blizzard toning down their early game tankiness at the very least to prevent the super early Adept abuse O__o
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On May 16 2015 01:26 Beelzebub1 wrote:
My only question is what is Terran supposed to do vs. early Adept play? It's like a super reaper in your base that can bypass frontal defenses and have a ridiculous escape mechanic as well.
And by "Terran" I mean what the hell is any race supposed to do? They are tanky to the point that when I go for heavy Queens, they get stomped, Zerglings get stomped and Roaches get stomped by them in low numbers considering they almost have the same HP as a Roach.
It's beta of course so things are going to go through their overpowered and underpowered swings but as far as I can tell watching pro games and playing 10-15 games a day Adepts are pretty absurdly strong and definitely abusable at the moment. Would appreciate Blizzard toning down their early game tankiness at the very least to prevent the super early Adept abuse O__o
I think that Barrack/depot wall should work. I don't remember the timings, but considering that Barracks and Gateways take the same time to build, + Adept build time, + travel time... enough for 2 depots for a wall I think.
First, like Lings, don't let them go in via building a wall. Try to use mines.
Right now, your best option is to rush their best counters early. Concussive shells, Mines, Hellbats can help early game, and I think that Banelings could be used against them, specially considering how slow they split.
But don't take it too seriously, Adepts are obviously broken. Abuse the low mobility of the army and harass non-stop.
I've been having some laughs looking how Adept/Immortal feels like the Protoss version of MarineMarauder and how doomed Terrans feel now. That small Karma time might be positive to teach how bad it feels to have units that are inneficient to combat in straight engagements, maybe then we could stop race flamming. Colossi deathballs existed for the sole reason of inneficiency of the army in straight combat. Now that everyone is going to get some efficient basic units, trading with less restrictions, and the Colossus is nerfed, would the flamming stop?
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On May 16 2015 01:55 JCoto wrote:
But don't take it too seriously, Adepts are obviously broken.
I wouldn't say it's so obvious since according to Blizzard Protoss was struggling in LotV and the adept wasn't mentioned at all in the most recent patch notes. Nevertheless, adepts make bio and Z in general look silly and PvP is nothing but a messy adepts wars. Seemed to go unnoticed to Blizzard's eyes though.
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On May 16 2015 02:00 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2015 01:55 JCoto wrote:
But don't take it too seriously, Adepts are obviously broken.
I wouldn't say it's so obvious since according to Blizzard Protoss was struggling in LotV and the adept wasn't mentioned at all in the most recent patch notes. Nevertheless, adepts make bio and Z in general look silly and PvP is nothing but a messy adepts wars. Seemed to go unnoticed to Blizzard's eyes though.
We must be playing different betas
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On May 16 2015 02:11 Tiaraju9 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2015 02:00 [PkF] Wire wrote:On May 16 2015 01:55 JCoto wrote:
But don't take it too seriously, Adepts are obviously broken.
I wouldn't say it's so obvious since according to Blizzard Protoss was struggling in LotV and the adept wasn't mentioned at all in the most recent patch notes. Nevertheless, adepts make bio and Z in general look silly and PvP is nothing but a messy adepts wars. Seemed to go unnoticed to Blizzard's eyes though. We must be playing different betas
What do you find out to be different in your experience ? Adepts are really really strong vs bio and in PvP in general. As for PvZ, I find adepts void rays compositions to be very strong but I'm not sure how good it really is.
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On May 16 2015 01:55 JCoto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2015 01:26 Beelzebub1 wrote:
My only question is what is Terran supposed to do vs. early Adept play? It's like a super reaper in your base that can bypass frontal defenses and have a ridiculous escape mechanic as well.
And by "Terran" I mean what the hell is any race supposed to do? They are tanky to the point that when I go for heavy Queens, they get stomped, Zerglings get stomped and Roaches get stomped by them in low numbers considering they almost have the same HP as a Roach.
It's beta of course so things are going to go through their overpowered and underpowered swings but as far as I can tell watching pro games and playing 10-15 games a day Adepts are pretty absurdly strong and definitely abusable at the moment. Would appreciate Blizzard toning down their early game tankiness at the very least to prevent the super early Adept abuse O__o
I think that Barrack/depot wall should work. I don't remember the timings, but considering that Barracks and Gateways take the same time to build, + Adept build time, + travel time... enough for 2 depots for a wall I think. First, like Lings, don't let them go in via building a wall. Try to use mines. Right now, your best option is to rush their best counters early. Concussive shells, Mines, Hellbats can help early game, and I think that Banelings could be used against them, specially considering how slow they split. But don't take it too seriously, Adepts are obviously broken. Abuse the low mobility of the army and harass non-stop. I've been having some laughs looking how Adept/Immortal feels like the Protoss version of MarineMarauder and how doomed Terrans feel now. That small Karma time might be positive to teach how bad it feels to have units that are inneficient to combat in straight engagements, maybe then we could stop race flamming. Colossi deathballs existed for the sole reason of inneficiency of the army in straight combat. Now that everyone is going to get some efficient basic units, trading with less restrictions, and the Colossus is nerfed, would the flamming stop?
Yea it's looking like not walling off vs. P is pretty much begging to get stomped on by Adepts.
Really hoping that further tweaks are made to the unit though, it seems like it's too well rounded in some aspects and then seems horribly gimmicky on another. Theres no reason for it to be so tanky, no unit with that much potential vs. light (essentially all early game units lol) needs to be tankier then a Zealot. They should boost the mobility and range of the adept, slightly nerf the HP, and give the damage upgrade back.
That way initial pressure will still pay off, with greater speed and range they will benefit more from great control and will be easier to conserve them. Early game they should be able to be paired up with gateway units and boost the DAMAGE output of gateway armies, not the meat, Zealots provide the meat, that's their job. With the damage upgrade back it will still allow Adepts to be useful vs. bio in the later stages, right now they just come out too damn strong too fast with no real reliable counter play. You would be amazed at how many speedlings they can kill in groups of 4+
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On May 15 2015 22:18 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2015 04:26 JCoto wrote:
However, even with Stalkers being considered "shit" they are the origin of a ton of complaints when paired with Sentries.
You can buff them in damage like Dragoons and see what happens. Wanna try? ^^
I would do that anytime, if only tanks were given their BW damage back. Where a tank OS a dragoon; they take like 5 shots to kill a stalker ;O
Tanks don't one-shot dragoons in BW.
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On May 16 2015 04:13 endy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2015 22:18 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote:On May 15 2015 04:26 JCoto wrote:
However, even with Stalkers being considered "shit" they are the origin of a ton of complaints when paired with Sentries.
You can buff them in damage like Dragoons and see what happens. Wanna try? ^^
I would do that anytime, if only tanks were given their BW damage back. Where a tank OS a dragoon; they take like 5 shots to kill a stalker ;O Tanks don't one-shot dragoons in BW.
What's more important, Siege tanks don't fly in BW.
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I am not sure what's exactly the problem. Adepts look cool to me but I guess that they need some tweaking as of right now you don't really have a reason to make Zealots as Adepts deal more damage, are ranged(still without GtA attack), are more mobile and are more tanky while you are adding just 25 gas to the Zealot cost.
But even with these stats they don't seem broken, just very strong. I would call something broken when there is no way to counter it even if you know that it's coming.
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On May 16 2015 06:12 Ramiz1989 wrote:
I am not sure what's exactly the problem. Adepts look cool to me but I guess that they need some tweaking as of right now you don't really have a reason to make Zealots as Adepts deal more damage, are ranged(still without GtA attack), are more mobile and are more tanky while you are adding just 25 gas to the Zealot cost.
But even with these stats they don't seem broken, just very strong. I would call something broken when there is no way to counter it even if you know that it's coming.
I mean I do agree, I just think if they want to be an early game in your face harassment unit, then it needs to be faster and do less damage, if they want it to be something that you start adding in the early/mid game then that's different then yes it DOES need to be tanky and durable.
As you said there is literally no reason to be Zealots for a good long while when you have Adepts that are vastly stronger against bio and I'm sure can be deadly vs. mech once figured out with it's ability to take advantage of immobility with psionic transfer.
Either buff Zealots and Nerf Adept early game potential or buff Adepts maybe even a bit further and make it a strong mid game Gateway unit.
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On May 16 2015 07:10 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2015 06:12 Ramiz1989 wrote:
I am not sure what's exactly the problem. Adepts look cool to me but I guess that they need some tweaking as of right now you don't really have a reason to make Zealots as Adepts deal more damage, are ranged(still without GtA attack), are more mobile and are more tanky while you are adding just 25 gas to the Zealot cost.
But even with these stats they don't seem broken, just very strong. I would call something broken when there is no way to counter it even if you know that it's coming. I mean I do agree, I just think if they want to be an early game in your face harassment unit, then it needs to be faster and do less damage, if they want it to be something that you start adding in the early/mid game then that's different then yes it DOES need to be tanky and durable. As you said there is literally no reason to be Zealots for a good long while when you have Adepts that are vastly stronger against bio and I'm sure can be deadly vs. mech once figured out with it's ability to take advantage of immobility with psionic transfer. Either buff Zealots and Nerf Adept early game potential or buff Adepts maybe even a bit further and make it a strong mid game Gateway unit.
Ah, the sad thing about the Zealot is that even before the Adept, they were still pretty useless throughout most of the game. They're just getting shoved even futher down to uselessness to only serve as a mineral dump to attack undefended base.
And before any one could agrue that Zealots weren't useless, I tell everyone to think of this simple question, why is that whenever the Stalker cannot deal with a unit, it becomes a huge issue for the Protoss to deal without higher tec? Example, MMMball, Cyclon, Roach, Zergling, Hydralisk. The obvious answer, the protoss other offensive gateway, the Zealots, is a wrothless unit when kitted so hard by every unit in the game, forcing the Stalker having to be the solution to everything (which they shouldn't since they are so freaking mobile and can bypass defensive & cliffs, and their omg powerful as ability Blink). Charge Zealots are actually decent against MMMball, even when they have Concussive Shells. Let's not forget, during the time of WoL, the Zealot+Archon combo was an actual powerful force that made MMMball need new units to deal with it. Charge Zealots are not invalidated just because Concussive Shells.
I mean, even look at right now with the PvP Adept issue. The unit that is supposed to counter the Adept is the Zealot (based on the fact that it says the Adept's strong against the Stalker but weak against the Zealot), and Zealots are failing their job again. It annoys the crap out of me to see the Adept take even more potential roles from the Zealot when the Zealot is being forced to suck for so long without Charge.
Well, before I end this and just look like I wanted to complain, the point I am trying to make is that, Adepts don't have to be the single band-aid that makes Protoss be good early game. It would be nice to also have the Zealots be viable in the early game for once, and then maybe, you can nerf the Adept's early game just a bit because they don't have to be so powerful because the glaring weakness isn't as big as before.
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But that's the thing, they are already really strong for core units, they aren't harassment units anymore. With shield upgrade they are even more tanky than Zealots and Stalkers, and they still destroy light units in the mid/late game while Stalkers and Immortals can deal with armored.
They should be nerfed a bit(either through stat nerf or their cost increased) and shield upgrade removed.
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On May 16 2015 08:04 Ramiz1989 wrote:
But that's the thing, they are already really strong for core units, they aren't harassment units anymore. With shield upgrade they are even more tanky than Zealots and Stalkers, and they still destroy light units in the mid/late game while Stalkers and Immortals can deal with armored.
They should be nerfed a bit(either through stat nerf or their cost increased) and shield upgrade removed.
I don't quite know about that though, that they are already strong for a "core" unit, they definitely don't feel very core, a core unit is something that you rely on throughout the game almost, the marine is a core unit, the Roach is a core unit, Adepts just feel over buffed in the early game hp wise and kind of underwhelming in the later stages when stimmed bio can still mow them down relatively quickly. I really do not think straight up nerfing the unit is the way to go, it needs to be strong to be a core unit.
Some of this stems from psionic transfer I think, it is really only useful during the very early stage of the game before faster units kind of just make it a null point, it needs a tweak, maybe give it a manual cast (not sure if I worded that correctly I mean make it so you don't have to wait the full duration for the teleport) and some type of shot gun ability or very light aoe upgrade that let's it deal with mass light units semi efficiently.
Notice that I said semi efficiently, they should be able to actually deal damage to bio balls in the later game unlike the Stalker, but benefit highly from things like Storm and good Disruptor play (You know, things that take alot of control and micro unlike the Colossus) and anything in between. It just needs to make early mid game gateway armies more mobile and more able to defend itself against mass Zerglings or early bio forces.
To the poster above you..
I agree, the Zealot should be buffed and made a relevant unit. The Charge ability disgusts me, they should just remove it and give it Brood War legs back, maybe make with legs concussive shell cut in half or something, at least removing Charge and replacing it with legs would allow the damn thing to benefit from micro, it's ability literally a moves the unit for the player rofl
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Lets also face the fact that if someone has never lost to something iE 1 base carrier, he will be caught offguard, and possibly make bad decisions.
Im sure there are ways to defend adepts efficiently, you just cant 3 hatch before pool anymore - they do something similar for P as hellions do - which is a good thing.
Cheese is always good if unknown.
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I have been trying several ways to get fast moving units in order to count with the speed to react to the spell, however it seems they are never in time (or not in the necessary numbers) to defend the 2 adept push except for marines, which is your basic bio unit.
To speak about timings, in the replay of Geiko against TOP his adepts start by the 2 minute mark (LotV time) taking 27 additional seconds to pop out, while a gas first reactor hellion opener starts the hellions by the 2:28ish minute mark taking 21 additional seconds to pop out. In conclusion, by the time the hellions start, the adepts have already popped out, considering he keeps on making 2 adepts at a time and you keep making 2 hellions at a time, I doubt there's going to be any number advantage for the terran unless you commit to making hellions faster or making more hellions at a time overall.
I believe that walling off your main ramp with the depot, the barracks and the factory is a viable choice though, in order to delay the push and being able to get your CC and your units safely.
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I'm not in the Beta, but based on comments on this forum, and streams I've seen, they seem almost a little too good early game and not good enough mid late game.
I think one possible solution might be to buff them a little so they will be a stronger core unit mid-late game (and give them back some splash damage so Protoss won't have to rely on Colossus to fight bio armies mid-late game), but make them either a little more expensive and/or a later tier units (maybe a twilight council requirement? or twilight and a new structure?) to prevent early rushes and give the zealot back the role of being the tanky unit early game.
Just a thought. Again, this is just based on comments and a few streams, but I think it's something they should experiment with.
Either way it seems an interesting unit, I hope Blizz doesn't just end up nerfing it into the ground because it's the kind of unit Protoss need after the colossus nerf (and they look a lot more fun to play with and against than Colossus)
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Adepts are a BW Protoss unit living in a SC2 world. Of course they're not going to fit in.
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On May 16 2015 16:23 itsMAHVELbaybee wrote:
Adepts are a BW Protoss unit living in a SC2 world. Of course they're not going to fit in.
Which unit¿
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EPT
