EPTMSI is happening, the thread
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
Came here after G2 vs GenG. Please don't tell me that+ Show Spoiler + this G2 is the best the west has to offer. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
On May 10 2023 04:53 Yorbon wrote: Lol. Came here after G2 vs GenG. Please don't tell me that+ Show Spoiler + this G2 is the best the west has to offer. Honestly, it's the very top LPL and LCK teams that are just lightyears ahead of everyone, not just the West. GenG and T1 made mincemeat out of everyone except KT, JDG is a superteam that has been years in the making. I want to see how BLG performs against them, right now it's looking like a regional rematch though. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4711 Posts
They misplayed the baron sequence horribly in game 4, but were in a pretty even situation before that, with a comp that wasn't necessarily outscaled. | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
@Uldridge: Not necessarily disagreeing, but I think Gen-G had shown that they were just a better team(-fighting team) in games 1 and 2 (and frankly should have played game 3 way better), so the outcome wasn't particularly surprising, even given a roughly equal position in game 4. T1 today was bizarre. + Show Spoiler + 6k down at 13 minutes game one into one of the fastest international BO5s ever with around 80 minutes. Just disgusting. lol https://twitter.com/Nisqy/status/1655211432122675201?s=20 | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
That game 1 was probably one of the biggest letdowns in history. Rest of the series was T1 having a better read on the meta and their opponents, one sided slaughter. Now onto the CN bracket side, let us see how hard they clown on NA | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8614 Posts
the entire culture around professional gaming in the west needs a shake up. players need to accept that its a cutthroat job and apply themselves to that life accordingly, instead of thinking they are still entitled to the luxury of only having to play the game to the point where its enjoyable and no more. i saw a vid on youtube of doublelift and someone else talking about how he could never bring himself to play over 10-12 hours of lol a day. this guy is a high paid professional player that is quite obviously way behind the benchmark and he cannot motivate himself to grind games when its literally his job, but he speaks with no shame about the fact that wont push himself. its crazy how this mentality is just accepted as the norm in na/eu and somehow people wonder why the west is being left in the dust | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4711 Posts
The West has an inefficient way of talent development and coaching. It's why C9 os consistently one of the best performing Western teams, because they do know how to get it done. Sure, the players are entitled, but if you're mentaly drained after 8 hours, why go for 10-12? Makes no sense to me. Efficient work is always better then churning it out. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8614 Posts
the quality of time spent practicing in the east is undoubtedly better. from the wests' perspective i would imagine then that the only way you could possibly keep up is at least put in the same amount of hours, though realistically you should be putting in more. if youre lacking in quality and you wont even put in the quantity then what solution is there? i dont think coaching etc can be used as an excuse when players and coaches have been heavily imported too. its a cultural problem that encompasses the entire scene, rather than an issue of lack of knowledge or expertise on how to be successful. to me there seems to be a fundamental lack of effort in the west. a lack of desperation to be the best. if i had a shit champion pool but i was desperate to compete with the best, id imagine that the only way to keep up would be to put in the extra hours to play the champions im shit at regardless of whether im exhausted or not. i remember a comment nuguri made about practicing against na players. he said it was impossible to practice matchups and determine how to play matchups or which matchup was favourable because na players would always lose both sides of the matchup. if i was a pro and my competition was making comments about my fundamentals being so bad that i wasnt even worthy of being practice to them, id be ashamed. | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
Edit: interesting perspective one this topic: | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8614 Posts
east/west score ended up 12-1. yikes. i dare say none of the west teams would win in lck challengers by the looks of it. maybe with the exception of g2 every other team looks absolutely clueless after 14 mins. | ||
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mintyminmus
Australia127 Posts
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
G2: BB is washed, Yike is rookie MAD: Nisqy is washed, Chasy is rookie BDS: I hate Adam, Sheo is rookie VIT: True i dare say none of the west teams would win in lck challengers by the looks of it That's an exaggeration, the gap between top LPL and LCK teams and their midtable counterparts is pretty massive this year. G2 would probably be a mid tier LCK team who would be scrapping with LSB and HLE while losing to DK and above. BRO, DRX, NS all have like one good thing about them and then endless flaws. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8614 Posts
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium4711 Posts
In all seriousness, Caps needs to step up a bit. It seems that last few international competitions are still spooking around his head or something. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4711 Posts
Seems they keep being baited by the item... | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8614 Posts
asian teams are insane at positioning and targeting in fights so that their ad is always at max range to attack but still behind their teammates for peel. western teams seem to tunnel a lot more in fights and the ads often find that they have to peel themselves, which probably leads to ads wanting to buy stopwatches for the security. one key example in game 1 was how bb and caps left hans alone to go after elk in the dragon pit. if bb and caps didnt force their ult combo and focused on protecting jinx then they would have traded blitz for sylas ksante and they could do something further with that trade. instead they left jinx completely alone to force their combo and that didnt even end up working out for them. teams like t1/jdg would not have made this mistake. theyd prioritise keeping their ad safe and rather not use their ult combos despite the temptation | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
On May 16 2023 20:07 Uldridge wrote: G2 CAN DO THIS. BLG IS OVERHYPED. LET'S GO. In all seriousness, Caps needs to step up a bit. It seems that last few international competitions are still spooking around his head or something. Think we all gotta stop huffing the copium, this was the best shot of winning a series and G2 threw way too much. Caps has looked incredibly boosted this entire tournament, really sad to watch. Hans had poor positioning as well. Yike and BB stepped up but it was enough, and teamfighting is just poor amongst Western teams. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4711 Posts
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium4711 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8614 Posts
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
Holy fck was the JDG peel for Ruler beyond insane. Never seen such synergy, casters so right when they called it a 'hive mind'. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8614 Posts
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
On May 20 2023 21:43 evilfatsh1t wrote: man t1s drafts are so dogshit. BLG destroying all the Koreans so JDG gets free MSI win, good guy Yagao doing his best for Knight. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8614 Posts
lpl definitely seem to come out with better drafts in international tournaments though. at least in the case for all of t1's recent international bo5s, they handicap themselves all the time with drafts that leave them on the back foot. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4711 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium4711 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8614 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium4711 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8614 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium4711 Posts
Faker busted on the scene in S3 and just won everyone's hearts over. He was very dominant. Ruler busted on the scene S5 I want to say. So they're 2 season apart. I don't know how long Faker will keep on playing to be honest. I hope he finds a way to another World's title to cement him a bit more, but I don't know if he'll be able to. Meanwhile, Ruler is only picking up more steam. While JDG his Ruler as a center piece, his game has been flawless for around a year now, in LCK and LPL. Ruler's gameplay now is like watching Faker season 3. It's that extraordinary to me. Edit: sorry if this sounds kind of all over the place, don't really feel like going point by point and typing a wall of text at the moment. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
This means that faker being still probably the best supportive midlaner in the world needs a greedy carry as his teammate. Which Zeus is, until the competition gets elite. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8614 Posts
its happened in almost every game they lost this tournament, they simply dont have the better late game draft. its probably intentional on their part because they intend on snowballing but its also sheer arrogance. multiple bo5 performances now where they draft inferior scaling comps because of their confidence that they can get the early game lead they need, only to be met with teams that dont succumb to their pressure as well as the lower level teams. in all 4 games against blg t1 had the worse late game bot duo in a meta which is heavily adc centric. its t1's obsession with early game priority that is their biggest strength and weakness. no flexibility during a match to switch up their draft style when its clearly not working out well for them is the cherry on top. i think this part of the blame should fall onto bengi though. he should take a page out of kkoma's book who was generally more brave and adaptable. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4711 Posts
But it might be more than Zeus at this point. Losing consecutive finals will start messing with your head. @evil Why do you think T1 has this bias towards early game comps? Guma can play Jinx/Aphelios/Xayah fine, Zeus is also a decent Gwen/Fiora player, so I don't see why they couldn't skew more lategame. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8614 Posts
in some games they could just give up prio and accept that they wont be in control (have priority) and play good scaling teamfight comps and theyd probably win anyway because the team is obviously insanely good. but theyve repeatedly shown now that theyd rather handicap themselves draft wise for the opportunity to have prio. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8614 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium4711 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8614 Posts
this msi against lck teams i would say the lck teams just got diffed in both drafts and gameplay. a bit of an anomaly tbh since both seeds underperformed. in general in the lpl i would disagree. the nature of pro level league is that you just end up with lanes that dont have priority. its inevitable. the difference between lck and lpl to some extent would be that in most lck games, if you have no priority, you either get rolled in a very 1 sided game or you try to minimise your losses until you scale and try and go late game. in lpl, youre more likely to find teams that force less than ideal engagements and win them based on pure skill in order to flip any advantages/disadvantages the drafts inherently give to teams. a much more riskier approach that when used against a team that not only has prio but also has good fighting/decision making ability, basically means youve just thrown the game with 1 engagement and you have even less chances of coming back than if you had just taken the lck approach and done nothing. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4711 Posts
Chinese don't mind opting into suboptimal plays because skillchecking opponents is part of their mentality. They'll throw anything and everything at you at any momemt and an inkling of hesitation loses you the game. I don't know if the LCK can keep up with this way of playing the game. They're either more risk averse or have inferior teamfighting, at the moment at least. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
On May 23 2023 17:40 Uldridge wrote: Generally. Chinese don't mind opting into suboptimal plays because skillchecking opponents is part of their mentality. They'll throw anything and everything at you at any momemt and an inkling of hesitation loses you the game. I don't know if the LCK can keep up with this way of playing the game. They're either more risk averse or have inferior teamfighting, at the moment at least. I don't think this is how JDG and EDG play though. Even BLG is a bit more reserved, all the batshit skillchecking teams are mid tier LPL these days at most. The top LPL teams are decisive team fighters and it showed at MSI. They will obviously punish you if you make mechanical errors, but that's not really the case vs T1 (outside of that Zeus int at the turret...) T1 had awful drafts (I don't think Naut is a Faker champ and T1 doesn't understand it either, handshaking Aphelios Jinx is so weird), and then we saw Faker's biggest flaw, which is that he feels compelled to make risky plays when behind or late game. It's been my biggest gripe with him over the last few years, it was less visible because T1 dominated LCK but it JDG are just a different calibre. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4711 Posts
Yes, they're not constantly in your face (even they have no problem with a >1 kill/minute game), but they will instantly pounce where others would hesitate and either not go through with it or pull the trigger too late. I've never seen this kind of coordination in a team the way JDG displays it at the moment. They flow so well together it's insane. I think there were numerous tower dives pre lvl 3 where it was 3v2, I think that's nuts. I don't think that's a very safe way to do things because it's such a volatile situation, but it seems like they have gotten the turret aggro juggle down to perfection and it makes them able to do things like that. Maybe it's not a risk in their minds because they've accounted for the possibilities and narrowed the set of possible (counter)actions from the enemy. Faker on Nautilus and his desperation to make plays was very, very apparent. | ||
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