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Welcome to this patch's General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread.
Non-League of Legends discussion should go in the LiquidLegends Lounge.
Certain topics are blacklisted from LoL General Discussion and they include:- "Elo hell"
- The Tribunal
- Bans, either from TL.net or LoL
Additionally, the TL LoL Ten Commandments are available for you to reference if you have any questions about this subforum.
Use the LoL Strategy subforum if you have game or champion specific questions. Lastly, confine QQing and bragging to their respective threads.
Patch 9.6: Live on Mar. 20, 2019
+ Show Spoiler [Previous GD Threads & Patch Notes] +
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Some gr8 skins coming out this patch but otherwise pretty boring. Will be interesting to see how Kayle shapes up heading into playoffs in competitive. Could shake up the way the whole game is played.
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Vayne is pretty strong in soloQ right now, I agree. I ban Rek because she's hilariously OP, but Vayne snowballs very often due to bad plays, not fun to play against.
Thank god for Rek ult nerf. It's not fun when you're 3/4 health Morg, and Rek hits a Q, resulting in your guaranteed death. Clearing wards is terrifying even when you can see a mile in front of yourself and have flash.
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Denmark2771 Posts
My biggest issue with Vayne is how she spikes at two items now because Rageblade is such a stupid design.
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I don't know how I'm supposed to feel about those Urgot changes
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FYI the buff to Kayle E means that she can now AoE crit.
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So Kayle is even stronger now? Checking op.gg and leagueofgraphs, she's currently sporting a 53% winrate in top lane for Diamond+, but what I find most unsettling is that for people who have more than 20 games on her, she's on a 57.5% win rate. Considering how new the champion is, that number will probably only be going up as people learn to play her more and more, other champs with higher winrates tend to be low play rate champs.
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I wonder how much Ezreal sucks now.
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Denmark2771 Posts
On March 20 2019 12:59 chipmonklord17 wrote:
I don't know how I'm supposed to feel about those Urgot changes
After having tried him they are actually not that bad. He can stack conqueror super fast and with perma pewpewpew uptime he's pretty beastly.
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Urgot is a perfect example of a balance choice from Riot I don't understand. The first time I saw him in pro play I thought, "why not gut this champ and go back to the drawing board?" Guy is boring, why not just replace him with something interesting? I'd rather watch, Rammus mirror matchups.
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Denmark2771 Posts
Today I decided to do practice tool tests of silly builds. On-hit lucian got higher considerable DPS than the most common standard builds I could find on probuilds..... It's probably true for nearly all ADCs except for Draven, Jhin and Cait?
EDIT: On-hit Corki also has higher DPS and stronger spells than regular build, Cait has similar DPS but weaker spells.
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What is your definition of on hit Lucian?
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Denmark2771 Posts
On March 22 2019 07:37 DarkCore wrote:
What is your definition of on hit Lucian?
Botrk, Wits End, Rageblade
If I had taken the time to stack Manamune I'm sure it'd be a quite significant damage increase too.
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Sylas is going to be bullshit until kingslayer gets a 20s flat cd so you get punished for using it early to proc passive and it also needs to not move Sylas, tired of whiff e2 into gapclose with w. Champ just feels like you’re getting unga bunga’d to a loss in every trade because he gets a free sheen level 1.
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Target dummies have 10,000 hitpoints and 100 armour and you're getting more blade of the ruined king procs with rageblade. If you're comparing 3 item Lucian of Botrk/BC/(Zeal Item) with Botrk/Rageblade/WitsEnd then I think it's pretty clear why you get more damage on the target dummies.
Having just Blade of the Ruined King and no other items beats out a 3 item standard crit build in damage quite noticeably. Trying to zero hp the dummy I think crit should win out at some point in the item build though.
I just did some testing and this is what I got trying to do 10,000 damage to the dummy. (I bought zerker books for each). I just used the basic abilities to attack the dummy.
BotRK 539 dps
BotRK BC PD 758 dps
BotRK Rageblade WitsEnd 958 dps
BotRK Rageblade WitsEnd Stormrazor RFC 1337 dps
IE RFC PD 500 dps
IE RFC PD ER LW (LDR) 1033 dps
IE RFC PD ER Stormrazor 1000 dps
BotRK BC PD RFC IE 1355 dps
It's worth noting that there's some variance in Lucian dps calcuation based on using your skills optimally and crit. If you dash a short distance you do more DPS because it takes less time, I tried to do it as short as possible each time but it's obviously not exactly the same. It seems like way too much effort to go and do it like 5 times and average it though.You could look at damage done in combos like doing auto Q auto W auto E auto but this heavily favours BotRK builds which have a lot more frontloaded DPS because of current hp scaling.
So maybe it's pretty close, but you're never going to be hitting a 10,000 hp target in a real game.
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BC PD isn't just bought for DPS though, the health is what makes Lucian such a strong 1vs1 champ. Although I'm surprised that the on hit build is so good.
Holy moly the DPS from IE RFC PD is so low, I didn't realize crit Lucian does so poorly. RFC and PD are both the worst Zeal items though in terms of damage.
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The dps from a target dummy isn't an accurate representation of what Lucian gameplay looks like or the dps you can expect to do in a real game.
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Denmark2771 Posts
On March 22 2019 20:49 Ansibled wrote:
Target dummies have 10,000 hitpoints and 100 armour and you're getting more blade of the ruined king procs with rageblade. If you're comparing 3 item Lucian of Botrk/BC/(Zeal Item) with Botrk/Rageblade/WitsEnd then I think it's pretty clear why you get more damage on the target dummies.
Having just Blade of the Ruined King and no other items beats out a 3 item standard crit build in damage quite noticeably. Trying to zero hp the dummy I think crit should win out at some point in the item build though.
I just did some testing and this is what I got trying to do 10,000 damage to the dummy. (I bought zerker books for each). I just used the basic abilities to attack the dummy.
BotRK 539 dps
BotRK BC PD 758 dps
BotRK Rageblade WitsEnd 958 dps
BotRK Rageblade WitsEnd Stormrazor RFC 1337 dps
IE RFC PD 500 dps
IE RFC PD ER LW (LDR) 1033 dps
IE RFC PD ER Stormrazor 1000 dps
BotRK BC PD RFC IE 1355 dps
It's worth noting that there's some variance in Lucian dps calcuation based on using your skills optimally and crit. If you dash a short distance you do more DPS because it takes less time, I tried to do it as short as possible each time but it's obviously not exactly the same. It seems like way too much effort to go and do it like 5 times and average it though.You could look at damage done in combos like doing auto Q auto W auto E auto but this heavily favours BotRK builds which have a lot more frontloaded DPS because of current hp scaling.
So maybe it's pretty close, but you're never going to be hitting a 10,000 hp target in a real game.
I let the parse run until the DPS stabilized (botrk being current%) so the 10k HP didn't play any significant factor.
In most cases I dont think it's the better build, especially on bursty characters like Lucian since crits are way more frontloaded. But it's a pretty curious result IMO. I could definitely see Wit's End as a core item on Corki since he synergize so well with it's mpen, often against AP in mid and it makes him have strong big spike after Triforce and to some degree Rageblade thanks to it's pseudo-voidstaff passive.
Triforce/Wits/Botrk/Rageblade Corki maybe?
On March 22 2019 22:36 DarkCore wrote:
BC PD isn't just bought for DPS though, the health is what makes Lucian such a strong 1vs1 champ. Although I'm surprised that the on hit build is so good.
Holy moly the DPS from IE RFC PD is so low, I didn't realize crit Lucian does so poorly. RFC and PD are both the worst Zeal items though in terms of damage.
Yeah. I was surprised at how much lower IE builds perform compared to what I expected. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if builds that drop IE for items like Mercurial/GA/LW/BC/BT would outperform it by far in an actual game. Unless you have 100% crit it seem like IE is not even worth it at all and even then you could instead just have one of the mentioned items and have way higher defensive stats while seemingly barely losing any significant damage.
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On March 23 2019 00:02 Jek wrote:
I let the parse run until the DPS stabilized (botrk being current%) so the 10k HP didn't play any significant factor.
I don't understand.
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Corki generally prefers crit builds because his passive makes it hard to itemise vs him as a squishy. He's not a DPS champion no matter how you build him, you just always deal damage against everything and have the potential to blow enemies up really easily once you have TF, RFC IE core. On hit Corki ult would suck for example, and he's not getting much from stacking Gunsoos. If he's winning sustained fights, he's probably very ahead and could build practically anything.
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Denmark2771 Posts
On March 23 2019 00:34 Ansibled wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2019 00:02 Jek wrote:
I let the parse run until the DPS stabilized (botrk being current%) so the 10k HP didn't play any significant factor.
I don't understand.
After enough auto attacks botrk basically offers no additional damage from it's passive since the dummy's current HP have a lower cap at 100. Keep attacking and eventually the DPS meter will reach a point where the bonus damage from botrk basically pay no part of your DPS value.
In a real game situation the DPS from the on-hit build will be higher and you can benefit from multi procs from Hurricane too, so the on-hit will actually in practice have higher DPS than what the test show.
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Denmark2771 Posts
On March 23 2019 00:35 DarkCore wrote:
Corki generally prefers crit builds because his passive makes it hard to itemise vs him as a squishy. He's not a DPS champion no matter how you build him, you just always deal damage against everything and have the potential to blow enemies up really easily once you have TF, RFC IE core. On hit Corki ult would suck for example, and he's not getting much from stacking Gunsoos. If he's winning sustained fights, he's probably very ahead and could build practically anything.
His passive makes it easier to itemise against him? 90% of his damage is magic thanks to it and his spells.
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Corki generally prefers crit builds because his passive makes it hard to itemise vs him as a squishy.
Corki's burst has a fair amount of attack damage attached to it, simply because 50% of the Sheen proc still remains as AD. There is also the very often forgotten aspect that most ADC, in fact most champions, have far worse MR scaling than Armor. Also, Corki is strongest at three items, and no ADC is going to have Maw at that point unless they are insanely fed or your whole team is AP, in which case picking Corki was probably a dumb idea. This is assuming Corki mid, because he's pretty lackluster in the bot lane, he scales hard off of levels and has a bunch of bad matchups bot.
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On March 23 2019 00:45 Jek wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2019 00:34 Ansibled wrote:On March 23 2019 00:02 Jek wrote:
I let the parse run until the DPS stabilized (botrk being current%) so the 10k HP didn't play any significant factor.
I don't understand. After enough auto attacks botrk basically offers no additional damage from it's passive since the dummy's current HP have a lower cap at 100. Keep attacking and eventually the DPS meter will reach a point where the bonus damage from botrk basically pay no part of your DPS value. In a real game situation the DPS from the on-hit build will be higher and you can benefit from multi procs from Hurricane too, so the on-hit will actually in practice have higher DPS than what the test show.
why would you go on hit lucian? what in his kit is actually proccing on hit well?
his passive yes but it is good with ad also, plus ult scales with ad
why not go botrk/rageblade/wits end on every adc if this was so good
oh wait you're literally full proccing a rageblade and going oh look on hit lucian so good
how many teamfights do you think you'll get to hit a lot with a full procced rageblade?
also botrk and black cleaver and phantom dancer all have really good utility value that you probably don't take into account if you are comparing with on hit build
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Denmark2771 Posts
On March 23 2019 03:30 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2019 00:45 Jek wrote:On March 23 2019 00:34 Ansibled wrote:On March 23 2019 00:02 Jek wrote:
I let the parse run until the DPS stabilized (botrk being current%) so the 10k HP didn't play any significant factor.
I don't understand. After enough auto attacks botrk basically offers no additional damage from it's passive since the dummy's current HP have a lower cap at 100. Keep attacking and eventually the DPS meter will reach a point where the bonus damage from botrk basically pay no part of your DPS value. In a real game situation the DPS from the on-hit build will be higher and you can benefit from multi procs from Hurricane too, so the on-hit will actually in practice have higher DPS than what the test show. why would you go on hit lucian? what in his kit is actually proccing on hit well? his passive yes but it is good with ad also, plus ult scales with ad why not go botrk/rageblade/wits end on every adc if this was so good oh wait you're literally full proccing a rageblade and going oh look on hit lucian so good how many teamfights do you think you'll get to hit a lot with a full procced rageblade? also botrk and black cleaver and phantom dancer all have really good utility value that you probably don't take into account if you are comparing with on hit build
I'm not saying it's a better build but just an odd result I most certainly didn't expect.
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i mean i dont really believe your results either whatever they are
assuming you are talking 4-5 item builds i think crit will do a lot more damage
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On March 23 2019 03:59 Slayer91 wrote:
i mean i dont really believe your results either whatever they are
assuming you are talking 4-5 item builds i think crit will do a lot more damage
I'd assume crit does more for champs like cait or ashe, but for champs with on-hit passives like kaisa or vayne, it gets a little more nebulous. Also, crit requires you to get there. On-hit builds are just so much stronger early-midgame than most crit builds atm.
Lategame fights my gut feeling is that crit builds are a lot burstier with abilities and autos that are amped up, but on-hit could outscale it dps-wise once rageblade is stacked up, and is harder to itemize against.
Very champ dependant IMO.
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I mean, I wasn't talking about vayne/kaisa
both champs tend to get crit items a lot these days anyway, maybe with botrk or botrk+rageblade first in vaynes case, but I see kaisa get IE first now
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The real point is as Jek originally said. Rageblade is stupid.
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I miss bugged Rageblade 1000AD Jhin
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Kaisa goes Stormrazor first at the moment.
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Denmark2771 Posts
On March 27 2019 09:34 Turbovolver wrote:
The real point is as Jek originally said. Rageblade is stupid.
This!
On March 23 2019 03:59 Slayer91 wrote:
i mean i dont really believe your results either whatever they are
assuming you are talking 4-5 item builds i think crit will do a lot more damage
Then you can just go into practice tool and run a damage parse. 
Until your second AD item the IE build is a lot weaker without any real significant spikes compared to on-hit that has a huge spike on every single buy through the entire game. The IE build will eventually outscale it at around 4 items (not including boots) depending on champion.
Since you need a second AD item for IE to be comparable in terms of damage the numbers suggest you should always go for a "bigboi AD item" first, you need AD to take advantage of IE now before you didn't need it as much since it was +50% bonus. Stormrazor->Shiv/Cannon->IE seems like a by far better route towards the 2x Zeal builds rather than the rush that's currently popular, especially if you run Fleet as your keystone.
- this is probably also way Draven is considered strong, Dravens are not wasting money early on IE. lol
In short I do think the crit builds are the strongest on any ADC without on-hit synergy, but I dont think the popular IE + 2xZeal rush is good.
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Anybody try to make Kayle/Zilean work as a bot lane yet?
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As a Zilean player idk how you don’t get walked on with that combo
The support can literally stand on the wave and walk at you level 1, 2, maybe not 3 depending (this is zilians strongest level based power spike) probably 4 and 5.
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On March 31 2019 07:47 Gahlo wrote:
Anybody try to make Kayle/Zilean work as a bot lane yet?
Yes and it was wonderful.
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On March 31 2019 07:47 Gahlo wrote:
Anybody try to make Kayle/Zilean work as a bot lane yet?
Like slushy said You prolly will get trucked. Its not like zilean is particularly strong in lane. Any Kayle support would have to be like zyra level in lane.
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I was thinking more of Kayle carry and Zilean support.
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On March 31 2019 12:10 Gahlo wrote:
I was thinking more of Kayle carry and Zilean support.
Support for Kayle*
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Just run Kayle top and Zilian mid, it's a great combo, but they actually just can't fend for themselves level 1,2,4,5 in a 2v2
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why would you want to run kayle with zilean?
kayle just wants someone who can either go in or buy time until she hits lvl 16
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On March 31 2019 18:27 Slayer91 wrote:
why would you want to run kayle with zilean?
kayle just wants someone who can either go in or buy time until she hits lvl 16
I was just curious because when she came out the question was "How does she get through lane?" and the concept of her being a bot lane carry was immediately dismissed in discussions I read because of her level based nature, which Zilean alleviates the 40% duo XP penalty with his passive.
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except if you're playing zilean/kayle bot lane the enemy bot lane is probably going to bully you the whole lane phase
most people play kayle top and get a bit behind but its harder to punish with melee top lanes and junglers are more scary if you're a top laner
there's generally much less action top lane which means it's not a big deal having no pressure, wheras bot lane having no pressure is a bigger problem cause of 4 man dives bot, support roams mid, drakes etc
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On March 31 2019 21:56 Slayer91 wrote:
except if you're playing zilean/kayle bot lane the enemy bot lane is probably going to bully you the whole lane phase
most people play kayle top and get a bit behind but its harder to punish with melee top lanes and junglers are more scary if you're a top laner
there's generally much less action top lane which means it's not a big deal having no pressure, wheras bot lane having no pressure is a bigger problem cause of 4 man dives bot, support roams mid, drakes etc
Never claimed it was good, just asking if anybody has tried it and how it worked out.
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Zilean/Kayle/Olaf/Taric/Utility or hypercarry.
I've seen the invulnerable Olaf.. it's quite disgusting.
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if you didn't think it was good then why ask
i dont ask if anyone tried olaf+teemo botlane
On March 31 2019 23:39 Uldridge wrote:
Zilean/Kayle/Olaf/Taric/Utility or hypercarry.
I've seen the invulnerable Olaf.. it's quite disgusting.
played against yi taric jungle+top 2v1 again yesterday, we had a huge lead and still lost lol
they had kaisa too who can follow if yi is going1v5
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On March 31 2019 23:56 Slayer91 wrote:
if you didn't think it was good then why ask
i dont ask if anyone tried olaf+teemo botlane
Because I wanted to know. That's kinda how questions work.
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but why did you want to know?
even if some guy tried it and it went well/badly it wouldn't mean anything because there are lots of factors at play in a game
i mean the reason to try something is if you think its a good idea theoretically and want to test it in practice but if you don't think its a good idea then you're just asking how some guys game went
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On March 31 2019 18:27 Slayer91 wrote:
why would you want to run kayle with zilean?
kayle just wants someone who can either go in or buy time until she hits lvl 16
I don’t think this was directed at my suggestion but pre 11 mid Zilean has good stalling, and can feed Kayle xp and post 11 he can
Post 11 his e and are are good enabling tools for top Kayle, specifically because top Kayle does not want to ult herself (she can’t auto if she ult herself)
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Between Kelpto and Zilean passive it definitely felt like I was hitting the powerspikes faster, but as someone else said it probably would have worked out better if both were solo laners instead of being a bot lane together. But it definitely worked out
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Another thing I didn’t mention when talking about defending yourself, when playing Zilean support , good players will use your harass against you by standing on the wave to get the lane position they want. If your supporting a melee carry you will have a hard time resetting the minion equilibrium without taking the cs yourself
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On April 01 2019 00:42 Slayer91 wrote:
but why did you want to know?
even if some guy tried it and it went well/badly it wouldn't mean anything because there are lots of factors at play in a game
i mean the reason to try something is if you think its a good idea theoretically and want to test it in practice but if you don't think its a good idea then you're just asking how some guys game went
It's literally as simple as my mind wandering while sitting at a red light and thinking about a discussion I read when she came out where people were discussing where Kayle would fit on the map. Bot was discarded due to her being level based and I thought "Zilean might be able to alleviate that as a support and he's been played in that position in the past."
That's literally the beginning and end of it. It's entirely a matter of curiosity as I've not played SR heavily for years, nor do I have a desire to play either of those champs. Congrats on being a dick about it, that is your brand after all.
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Yes, but that implies you DID think it might be a good idea. I provided some further arguments why I think it's a bad idea, and then you said "lul I never said it was a good idea".
that's disingenuous. You are asking if someone tried it because you thought it might be a good combo.
You thought it might be a good combo because you are following the reasoning that someone said "kayle needs levels" but I provided some more reasons why she could struggle in bot lane and wouldn't work well with zilean.
I don't have a problem if you come up with an idea, and someone trashes it, and you discard it, but it annoys me if you come up with an idea, and then say "oh I never said it would be good".
If you knew it wasn't good, you wouldn't care if anyone tried it.
Hope this post made sense. I realize I'm making lots of words out of a throwaway post but it's hard to explain why my brain got annoyed at your second post.
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Teut's brain is annoyed. It hurt itself in its confusion.
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On April 01 2019 04:03 Slayer91 wrote:
Yes, but that implies you DID think it might be a good idea. I provided some further arguments why I think it's a bad idea, and then you said "lul I never said it was a good idea".
that's disingenuous. You are asking if someone tried it because you thought it might be a good combo.
You thought it might be a good combo because you are following the reasoning that someone said "kayle needs levels" but I provided some more reasons why she could struggle in bot lane and wouldn't work well with zilean.
I don't have a problem if you come up with an idea, and someone trashes it, and you discard it, but it annoys me if you come up with an idea, and then say "oh I never said it would be good".
If you knew it wasn't good, you wouldn't care if anyone tried it.
Hope this post made sense. I realize I'm making lots of words out of a throwaway post but it's hard to explain why my brain got annoyed at your second post.
My thoughts were a range of "it could at best be playable", since if it was actually good I wouldn't have to ask the question, I would have read about it somewhere else, to "it could just be bad" because Kayle would have too much of a problem csing for the synergy of the passives to be worth it as a bot lane. I don't tend to think in boolean logic. If I say I "Never claimed it was good"(my actual words, btw) that doesn't mean I was claiming it was bad either.
I get that you got frustrated because you thought I was disregarding your post out of hand though. I wasn't, it just wasn't what I was asking for.
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Denmark2771 Posts
To play the devil's advocate.
Kayle only really need level 11 to take off which doesn't take that much longer in a duo lane, especially with a Zilean support. The biggest issue with playing her as the botlane carry is she's very weak in the duo lane that can abusive it much harder than the solo lanes. She would need a support that can effectively play 1v2 for a large part of the laning phase or have the jungler live down there.
The biggest question to me is why pick her over Vayne/Kaisa/Twitch/Kog if you're looking for a hyper carry botside?
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I agree with your reasoning on her level mechanism, Kayle doesn't scale linearly with levels, all that matters is reaching level 11. But she will get shafted in the bot lane against any competent opponents, Thresh could probably just walk up and flay her, she'd be sitting under the turret for the first 15 minutes, if it even lasts that long.
I have seen some people run her as a support in bot with moderate success against some matchups, usually sustain or poke (her heal is actually fairly decent, 70 mana for two people healing 60 HP is not bad, and it has dirt cheap scaling, 5 more mana for 30, so 60 total, extra health every level you put in it. I have to check, but I can see her working by maxing Q/E with W second, not sure which one is a better harassing tool. Her ultimate is obviously powerful on hyper carries, but I wouldn't put her over Lulu or Janna when it comes to achieving the same thing lol.
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On April 01 2019 09:53 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2019 04:03 Slayer91 wrote:
Yes, but that implies you DID think it might be a good idea. I provided some further arguments why I think it's a bad idea, and then you said "lul I never said it was a good idea".
that's disingenuous. You are asking if someone tried it because you thought it might be a good combo.
You thought it might be a good combo because you are following the reasoning that someone said "kayle needs levels" but I provided some more reasons why she could struggle in bot lane and wouldn't work well with zilean.
I don't have a problem if you come up with an idea, and someone trashes it, and you discard it, but it annoys me if you come up with an idea, and then say "oh I never said it would be good".
If you knew it wasn't good, you wouldn't care if anyone tried it.
Hope this post made sense. I realize I'm making lots of words out of a throwaway post but it's hard to explain why my brain got annoyed at your second post. My thoughts were a range of "it could at best be playable", since if it was actually good I wouldn't have to ask the question, I would have read about it somewhere else, to "it could just be bad" because Kayle would have too much of a problem csing for the synergy of the passives to be worth it as a bot lane. I don't tend to think in boolean logic. If I say I "Never claimed it was good"(my actual words, btw) that doesn't mean I was claiming it was bad either. I get that you got frustrated because you thought I was disregarding your post out of hand though. I wasn't, it just wasn't what I was asking for.
i wasn't annoyed about anyone ignoring my posts
was more about the implied contradictions
tl;dr not thinking in boolean logic wtf
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After reading DarkCore’s post I think you could survive the lane if you played it like the Taric / Sona strat. Kayle with frost queen + Klepto, Zilean as the primary farmer until quest completion. Mind you I think this is vastly inferior to both being solo lanes and Taric/Sona itself, but Zilean can definitely turn it into a pve lane after his first base.
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if you really want the zilean synergy with kayle would it not just be better to throw them into their respective lanes (kayle top or mid with zilean mid or support) and then just have one or two of the backs before 11 be coordinated so zilean can just hand off the exp?
seems really not worth trying to force a really bad duo lane for the sole purpose of utilizing the zilean-kayle exp share once or twice
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The synergy isn't really that good anyway, Zilean passive isn't THAT much XP as far as I know, and usually it's not practical to find one guy to use it on all the time.
Zilean R is kind of anti synergy with Kayle R and Kayle in general wants big strong melee champs to run in and tank.
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If Kayle ult s herself it locks out her auto attack, so it should be done as a last resort only , significantly stronger to ult your initiator.
To be honest I’m firmly in the Kayle suck despite the stats camp, but I personally found the topic interesting to talk about.
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EPT
