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On April 23 2018 20:49 Jek wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 16:40 DarkCore wrote:there is no such thing as perfect balance. no matter how good the balance is there will always be champions that are under utilised While true, it also means Riot has an iron grip on what is viable in the game, aka when they see players doing something they don't like, they can change it. This can be good or bad. Good would be getting rid of Gragas mid one shotting everyone. Bad would probably be buffing Kai'Sa to the stratosphere, or leaving Janna the way she is for years now. These changes do not have an inherent balance reason, which means they are always going to be debatable. idk mate it feels like there used to be MUST ban champions every season Agreed, in terms of over the top OP single picks, Riot balancing has come a long way. Even Kai'Sa isn't banned every game, although Swain is pretty close to previous ban rates. But in return, the power of individual carry ability has gone down, no more Faker carrying his team to a championship by being the best LB in the world. I honestly dont think Riot balancing has anything to do with the ability to solo carry. The 1v9 Faker moments were a combination of Faker and SKT being ahead of their time. Other players didn't perform as well on the same champions as him. Players and teams as a whole has simply caught up.
Just go watch old games and observe the gold, then compare. The difference is striking
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Forgot to mention that XP range in lane from minions dying was dramatically increased as well. It's almost impossible to zone people off CS unless you've got a freeze set up in the mid lane. Even then, the enemy mid can stand way far away and soak XP, while still remaining relatively safe from ganks provided they have an escape or CC ability in most match ups.
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On April 24 2018 01:53 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 20:49 Jek wrote:On April 23 2018 16:40 DarkCore wrote:there is no such thing as perfect balance. no matter how good the balance is there will always be champions that are under utilised While true, it also means Riot has an iron grip on what is viable in the game, aka when they see players doing something they don't like, they can change it. This can be good or bad. Good would be getting rid of Gragas mid one shotting everyone. Bad would probably be buffing Kai'Sa to the stratosphere, or leaving Janna the way she is for years now. These changes do not have an inherent balance reason, which means they are always going to be debatable. idk mate it feels like there used to be MUST ban champions every season Agreed, in terms of over the top OP single picks, Riot balancing has come a long way. Even Kai'Sa isn't banned every game, although Swain is pretty close to previous ban rates. But in return, the power of individual carry ability has gone down, no more Faker carrying his team to a championship by being the best LB in the world. I honestly dont think Riot balancing has anything to do with the ability to solo carry. The 1v9 Faker moments were a combination of Faker and SKT being ahead of their time. Other players didn't perform as well on the same champions as him. Players and teams as a whole has simply caught up. Just go watch old games and observe the gold, then compare. The difference is striking
Part of this is just players farming better though.
Also, a lot of the ability to solo carry was just people being trash at the game.
Case in point, go watch the faker 1v9 game where he solo kills ambition with Nidalee. Faker has something silly like 180 cs at 30 minutes. My silver buddy had a higher cs pacing vs a plat players in the clash. Also case in point... ambition, considered the best mid in the world at the time, just evolves Kha W outside a creep wave ahead of his minions. At the time everyone thought that was a crazy unexpected play by faker, but now that's the most obvious thing in the world.
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On April 24 2018 02:37 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2018 01:53 cLutZ wrote:On April 23 2018 20:49 Jek wrote:On April 23 2018 16:40 DarkCore wrote:there is no such thing as perfect balance. no matter how good the balance is there will always be champions that are under utilised While true, it also means Riot has an iron grip on what is viable in the game, aka when they see players doing something they don't like, they can change it. This can be good or bad. Good would be getting rid of Gragas mid one shotting everyone. Bad would probably be buffing Kai'Sa to the stratosphere, or leaving Janna the way she is for years now. These changes do not have an inherent balance reason, which means they are always going to be debatable. idk mate it feels like there used to be MUST ban champions every season Agreed, in terms of over the top OP single picks, Riot balancing has come a long way. Even Kai'Sa isn't banned every game, although Swain is pretty close to previous ban rates. But in return, the power of individual carry ability has gone down, no more Faker carrying his team to a championship by being the best LB in the world. I honestly dont think Riot balancing has anything to do with the ability to solo carry. The 1v9 Faker moments were a combination of Faker and SKT being ahead of their time. Other players didn't perform as well on the same champions as him. Players and teams as a whole has simply caught up. Just go watch old games and observe the gold, then compare. The difference is striking Part of this is just players farming better though. Also, a lot of the ability to solo carry was just people being trash at the game. Case in point, go watch the faker 1v9 game where he solo kills ambition with Nidalee. Faker has something silly like 180 cs at 30 minutes. My silver buddy had a higher cs pacing vs a plat players in the clash. Also case in point... ambition, considered the best mid in the world at the time, just evolves Kha W outside a creep wave ahead of his minions. At the time everyone thought that was a crazy unexpected play by faker, but now that's the most obvious thing in the world.
This entire thing is just silly. Is it farming better? Possibly a miniscule amount of it is (the majority is higher ambient gold and just general global gold), but even if that were so, a huge amount of better CSing is that every freaking champion has better waveclear now. And not just midlaners having lower mana costs and better pushing, ADCs, Tops, etc get to start with damage items now instead of boots.
Also its silly to bring up the Faker nidalee game. She was always a bad pre-6 laner and Faker was rarely even in lane afterwards to get CS. And the evolution is an even sillier point, people get caught shopping all the freaking time still in top level games.
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Faker CSPM
Season 3 (this is missing a lot of games though): 8.7
Season 4: 9.1
Season 5: 8.9
Season 6: 8.8
Season 7: 9.4
Season 8: 10.2
Though in general this season I think everyone is getting more. Something to point out is that in Season 4 Faker gets 480 GPM whereas every season after this is a fairly consistent 420 GPM. Don't have stats for Season 3. Comparing old gold leads is probably heavily influenced by dragon changes though so I'm not sure this means much.
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the team oriented meme needs to die.
elo hell discussion was banned years and years ago. this is just another way of saying that.
On April 24 2018 02:59 Ansibled wrote:
Faker CSPM
Season 3 (this is missing a lot of games though): 8.7
Season 4: 9.1
Season 5: 8.9
Season 6: 8.8
Season 7: 9.4
Season 8: 10.2
Though in general this season I think everyone is getting more. Something to point out is that in Season 4 Faker gets 480 GPM whereas every season after this is a fairly consistent 420 GPM. Don't have stats for Season 3. Comparing old gold leads is probably heavily influenced by dragon changes though so I'm not sure this means much.
got any of the stats from S2 mid laners like froggen, alex ich, toyz and rapidstar?
s2 feels the most relevant given the current state of the game and distribution of power between roles. very similar in terms of non-interactive waveclear. possibly higher numbers even because of the power farming wraiths + wolves
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On April 24 2018 03:06 Frolossus wrote:the team oriented meme needs to die. elo hell discussion was banned years and years ago. this is just another way of saying that. Show nested quote +On April 24 2018 02:59 Ansibled wrote:
Faker CSPM
Season 3 (this is missing a lot of games though): 8.7
Season 4: 9.1
Season 5: 8.9
Season 6: 8.8
Season 7: 9.4
Season 8: 10.2
Though in general this season I think everyone is getting more. Something to point out is that in Season 4 Faker gets 480 GPM whereas every season after this is a fairly consistent 420 GPM. Don't have stats for Season 3. Comparing old gold leads is probably heavily influenced by dragon changes though so I'm not sure this means much. got any of the stats from S2 mid laners like froggen, alex ich, toyz and rapidstar? s2 feels the most relevant given the current state of the game and distribution of power between roles. very similar in terms of non-interactive waveclear. possibly higher numbers even because of the power farming wraiths + wolves
How are discussion the playstyle in professional past and present even remotely similar to "Elo hell".
You can find it for most players on gamepedia:
https://lol.gamepedia.com/Froggen/Statistics/2013
Midlane for the longest time were almost entirely wave clear champs or Kassadin. Dont really see how their current pushing power is worse than Gragas, Lux, Twisted Fate, Karthus and Anivia...
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On April 24 2018 02:59 Ansibled wrote:
Faker CSPM
Season 3 (this is missing a lot of games though): 8.7
Season 4: 9.1
Season 5: 8.9
Season 6: 8.8
Season 7: 9.4
Season 8: 10.2
Though in general this season I think everyone is getting more. Something to point out is that in Season 4 Faker gets 480 GPM whereas every season after this is a fairly consistent 420 GPM. Don't have stats for Season 3. Comparing old gold leads is probably heavily influenced by dragon changes though so I'm not sure this means much.
Keep in mind that season 4 and earlier had mid laners owning one if not both wraiths and wolves, which kind of fucks up those numbers.
Wave control in general was pretty bad... teams were literally just figuring out you could back on canon waves.
Go watch some games. Average cspm was shit. Like I'd say maybe 7 to 7.5... keeping in mind those numbers for faker are with him and skt pooping on everything.
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Midlane for the longest time were almost entirely wave clear champs or Kassadin. Dont really see how their current pushing power is worse than Gragas, Lux, Twisted Fate, Karthus and Anivia...
I don't think by much, but the big difference is pros today have those cs numbers while roaming a lot more.
How are discussion the playstyle in professional past and present even remotely similar to "Elo hell".
Yeah, I never brought up soloQ either, you can carry by yourself in yoloQ ez, just watch Apdo do it every season. But in competitive, it's a very different environment.
Wave control in general was pretty bad... teams were literally just figuring out you could back on canon waves
Pretty bad is an understatement. Azubu Blaze (Or was it still CJ?) literally destroyed the scene by mastering the '6th' man strategy of manipulating a side lane to slowly build up into a massive creep wave capable of taking two or three towers by themselves. That gets thrown completely out the window today simply by having a Banner of Command, or running TP.
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I think the blaze story is misunderstood. Freezing and outfarming the enemy was really the core of the strategy, while the "6th man" was rendered effective because running TP in lane was too risky, and giving up dragons at the time was also more risky.
Basically all aspects of that have been changed. TP is now the less risky choice in lane, freezing is not nearly as effective, powercurves for most champions have been flattened, saccing dragons is fairly benign (you can always just take a counter herald anways), plus Ozone's diving strategy has been adopted. If anything diving is the thing teams have gotten much better at.
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Remember how right before the rune rework Ezreal in the jungle was picking up as a popular pick? Just yesterday I had a game where an ADC main got auto filled jungle and played jungle EZ with electrocute. The level three gank with red buff was absolutely brutal and he nearly one comboed an Irelia that I was leaning against. I hadn’t seen that pick in a long time, but he seemed to have good clear times and pretty vicious ganks. Anyone else seen a jungle Ez recently?
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I think jungle Ez is just a weaker jungle Kai atm, he's not exactly a bad jungler, but lack of CC is a big problem, and he's not strong enough right now to justify the pick in pro play. But go ahead and play him in yoloQ.
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On April 25 2018 03:54 General_Winter wrote:
Remember how right before the rune rework Ezreal in the jungle was picking up as a popular pick? Just yesterday I had a game where an ADC main got auto filled jungle and played jungle EZ with electrocute. The level three gank with red buff was absolutely brutal and he nearly one comboed an Irelia that I was leaning against. I hadn’t seen that pick in a long time, but he seemed to have good clear times and pretty vicious ganks. Anyone else seen a jungle Ez recently?
I've seen it once after rune rework. He ended up getting farmed by our Kha'Zix.
If he doesn't get off to a good start he easily becomes a complete non-factor, especially if the other jungler is someone who can 1v1 him at any point of the game which is basically all meta junglers right now. Kindred or Kai'Sa all looks like way better "adc junglers" at the moment, hell I'd even rather have a Twitch jungle on my team instead.
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https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2018/04/dev-updates-to-ranked-for-2019/
I'm not convinced. Positional matchmaking sounds kind of sketchy? but at least you can keep one rank lower to queue with people outside of usual ranked differences? Oh they confirmed you can't do this.
I'm really curious how much your positional mmrs will drift apart. If you end up like 300mmr higher on your main role then I think matchmaking is going to be garbage in general.
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There's no way you have like a 500mmr difference between your roles. The example Riot gives is a Gold 1 ADC being a Silver 4 jungler and I'm pretty sure the Gold 1 will just stomp even in an offrole. I really don't see this having good implications for matchmaking.
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Ansi, you've seen me struggle in silver on ADC when i was Plat lol. I can see it happening :D
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On April 26 2018 03:08 AdsMoFro wrote:
Ansi, you've seen me struggle in silver on ADC when i was Plat lol. I can see it happening :D
I'm pretty sure you ended up winning games though, albeit in a somewhat comical way. Maybe the difference between your absolute best role and your absolute worse can be something like this if you really try, but the difference between primary and secondary shouldn't be anywhere near as close.
I don't know I pretty much play everything other than top and I don't think there's a massive difference between my skill in these roles. And I still think I'd beat a top laner who is like 2 divisons below me.
Still a lot of the system seems vague at the moment so we'll have to see what they actually do. Hopefully they cap how far apart your ranks can be to a division or something.
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On April 26 2018 02:42 Ansibled wrote:
There's no way you have like a 500mmr difference between your roles. The example Riot gives is a Gold 1 ADC being a Silver 4 jungler and I'm pretty sure the Gold 1 will just stomp even in an offrole. I really don't see this having good implications for matchmaking.
You obviously haven't seen how atrocious I am at jungling.
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EPT
