EPT[Patch 8.8] Leblanc Revert General Discussion - Page 3
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
On April 21 2018 10:13 JimmiC wrote: Some teasers but not much info. https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2018/04/champion-roadmap-april-2018/ Riot: "Moving forward we want every new champion to do at least one unique thing" Also Riot: "This champion that has a very unique playstyle, and has somehow managed to be meta for a greater % of the time than the majority of the champ, doesn't feel enough like other league champions so were reworking him" | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On April 22 2018 00:36 Slusher wrote: Riot: "Moving forward we want every new champion to do at least one unique thing" Also Riot: "This champion that has a very unique playstyle, and has somehow managed to be meta for a greater % of the time than the majority of the champ, doesn't feel enough like other league champions so were reworking him" People have said it before, but the moving targets and vagueness are clearly a strategy. They have no coherent balance goals. They rework the jungle just about every year, to little effect, they rework about 1 "class" a year, be it assassins, tanks, adcs, etc but each of those options contradicted each other, and they rarely revisit their work (Leblanc being addressed is the exception, not the rule), and they just done fucked some champs like Ryze. | ||
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AdsMoFro
Japan4761 Posts
On April 22 2018 07:31 cLutZ wrote: People have said it before, but the moving targets and vagueness are clearly a strategy. They have no coherent balance goals. They rework the jungle just about every year, to little effect, they rework about 1 "class" a year, be it assassins, tanks, adcs, etc but each of those options contradicted each other, and they rarely revisit their work (Leblanc being addressed is the exception, not the rule), and they just done fucked some champs like Ryze. TBF they've revisited a bunch of their reworks. Leblanc/Kog/Rengar etc. I believe some Rioters went on Beyond the Rift and said they think they handled those class updates of changing a bunch of champions in a short period of time was the wrong way to go with it and they'll be focusing a lot more on itemisations and a smaller number of champions. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On April 22 2018 08:17 AdsMoFro wrote: TBF they've revisited a bunch of their reworks. Leblanc/Kog/Rengar etc. I believe some Rioters went on Beyond the Rift and said they think they handled those class updates of changing a bunch of champions in a short period of time was the wrong way to go with it and they'll be focusing a lot more on itemisations and a smaller number of champions. I don't think it has to be either, you just need to choose your path aggressively. If you want to do major "group" reworks, that's fine, just do them, and monitor to make sure its works. For example the assassin rework, if you do that, and then see the result is that you just remade assassins into shit control mages/bruisers, don't leave it. OTOH if you are more into tweaking a little every patch, well then actually do that. Throw some love at Hecarim in this patch while you are doing stuff, or TF, Talon, Zed, Annie, etc. I mean they did a bunch of shit with Ahri, who already was a meta-ready champion, just undertuned because Taliah is just stupidly too good at shoving & roaming. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
On April 22 2018 18:18 DarkCore wrote: I still stand to my opinion that Riot does not focus on to balance the game as their priority, it's making sure that the meta is fresh and always shifting that they always look at first, so people will keep playing the game. This is in my opinion also the best way to go about it. Perfect balance makes a game eventually feel stale while perfect imbalance makes game feel alive as metas will constantly evolve. | ||
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
I rather have the game in a somewhat balanced state and have the players figure out (even if slowly) ways to innovate | ||
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General_Winter
United States719 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On April 23 2018 04:24 General_Winter wrote: I’m not sure it’s as deliberate or planned. I think the design team wants to make unique champs and unique play styles and meaningful choices. And I think the balance team thinks balancing unique things is really hard and a pain in the but, so they nerf things until the playable champs are all the same, and they can use the same toolkit to balance them. I think the argument people would make is, "but why these champions?" Sejuani has been good for a while, there are 2 other, similar junglers (Amumu and Naut) that are way cooler and way more interesting. Taliah is just a boring version of TF. It is nice they rid us of the boringness that is RekSai this season I suppose. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
now its like sometimes they release a broken champion and theres a lot of strong champs but not quite the same sounds like decent balancing to me | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On April 22 2018 18:18 DarkCore wrote: I still stand to my opinion that Riot does not focus on to balance the game as their priority, it's making sure that the meta is fresh and always shifting that they always look at first, so people will keep playing the game. i agree. but i'm totally okay with it. rapid iteration is why the game has high player retention | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
The only reason I mention balance at all is if he was unique but useless that could be an argument | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8937 Posts
On April 23 2018 03:41 Jek wrote: This is in my opinion also the best way to go about it. Perfect balance makes a game eventually feel stale while perfect imbalance makes game feel alive as metas will constantly evolve. there is no such thing as perfect balance. no matter how good the balance is there will always be champions that are under utilised. also if the game remains the same for a long enough time pros will find pocket strats within the patch that eventually become too strong for everything else, therefore requiring another balance patch. this is how it should be, rather than the game being patched towards some retarded fantasy made up by riot members when they feel like it. not sure how they can be serious about lol being an esport when they dont give a shit about actual competitive balance. cant say the same for dota post 2014, but icefrogs dota up to 2014 was textbook balancing imo. im still convinced valve secretly fired icefrog after 2014 and just use his name so the playerbase doesnt lose their shit. | ||
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Bladeorade
United States1898 Posts
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
there is no such thing as perfect balance. no matter how good the balance is there will always be champions that are under utilised While true, it also means Riot has an iron grip on what is viable in the game, aka when they see players doing something they don't like, they can change it. This can be good or bad. Good would be getting rid of Gragas mid one shotting everyone. Bad would probably be buffing Kai'Sa to the stratosphere, or leaving Janna the way she is for years now. These changes do not have an inherent balance reason, which means they are always going to be debatable. idk mate it feels like there used to be MUST ban champions every season Agreed, in terms of over the top OP single picks, Riot balancing has come a long way. Even Kai'Sa isn't banned every game, although Swain is pretty close to previous ban rates. But in return, the power of individual carry ability has gone down, no more Faker carrying his team to a championship by being the best LB in the world. | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
On April 23 2018 16:40 DarkCore wrote: While true, it also means Riot has an iron grip on what is viable in the game, aka when they see players doing something they don't like, they can change it. This can be good or bad. Good would be getting rid of Gragas mid one shotting everyone. Bad would probably be buffing Kai'Sa to the stratosphere, or leaving Janna the way she is for years now. These changes do not have an inherent balance reason, which means they are always going to be debatable. Agreed, in terms of over the top OP single picks, Riot balancing has come a long way. Even Kai'Sa isn't banned every game, although Swain is pretty close to previous ban rates. But in return, the power of individual carry ability has gone down, no more Faker carrying his team to a championship by being the best LB in the world. I honestly dont think Riot balancing has anything to do with the ability to solo carry. The 1v9 Faker moments were a combination of Faker and SKT being ahead of their time. Other players didn't perform as well on the same champions as him. Players and teams as a whole has simply caught up. | ||
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AdsMoFro
Japan4761 Posts
On April 23 2018 20:49 Jek wrote: I honestly dont think Riot balancing has anything to do with the ability to solo carry. The 1v9 Faker moments were a combination of Faker and SKT being ahead of their time. Other players didn't perform as well on the same champions as him. Players and teams as a whole has simply caught up. I think it has. Giving support more gold for example means that those bags of gold for LB in the early-mid game no longer exist/are harder to exploit. In general, tankiness and resistances are way easier to itemize and fit into builds even as damage oriented champions. Furthermore, Riot's definitely shifted away power from mid lane in general. It's siphoned it off into support mainly, with a bit of jungle as well. Of course, some of it is also teams catching up and learning how to play around vision better and at abusing SKT's flaws as a team. That's also a natural progression of the game but things like changing how snowballing work, buffing TP, reducing first-blood/first blood XP, are all obviously targeted at reducing the likelihood of one player 1v9ing a game. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
I honestly dont think Riot balancing has anything to do with the ability to solo carry. The 1v9 Faker moments were a combination of Faker and SKT being ahead of their time. Other players didn't perform as well on the same champions as him. Players and teams as a whole has simply caught up. Faker was ahead of his time, yes, but he has mentioned it himself that solo carrying isn't really feasible anymore. Destroying your lane does not carry over to an autowin anymore, besides the fact that snowball mechanics have been nerfed repetitively since S2. The days of running ignite top are over, Renekton isn't going to build a 30 cs gap at the 10 minute mark unless his opponent sucks or has been massively camped. Likewise, casters often talk about bot lane matchups being favoured to one side, but if you look at the cs scores at the end of the laning phase, they tend to not be absurdly one sided, usually the 'favoured' lane will just naturally get the tower first and snowball from there. Snowballing games is now a team initiative, where an advantage in a lane has to be carefully orchestrated with other plans to get things rolling. This is why TP is such a powerful summoner, no bot lane wants to have a 2/0 Camille TPing into their lane getting more kills. It's also why Galio is popular in pro games, he deters small skirmishes around the mid lane because his ultimate will shut it down. In the past, Riven top would just keep killing her lane opponent over and over again, the jungler would either have to come sit top or give the lane up. Same with the days of counterjungling: Shyv would steal camps, and you'd end up with a lv 2 Amumu being absolutely useless while lv 4 Shyv is asserting pressure from the enemy jungle because she can turn up from behind the tower. Catch-up exp, and the way the jungle gives gold now, has mainly removed those features. Changes to warding and supports have contributed to this. In the LPL series last week, I watched quite a bit of counterjungling happen, but the enemy jungler was always even in lvs and probably jungle gold as well. The downside was that their pathing was made predictable and the counterjungler could pressure lanes or take objectives safely, but the advantage was not quantitative, you couldn't put proper numbers on this 'advantage' until a big play was made I don't consider it a bad thing tbh, auto losing lane with little way to come back or have any impact on the game just because your jungler sucks were not fun days. But I do think that Riot has brought balance in this direction. | ||
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