EPT(I’m still tilted btw)
[Patch 8.8] Leblanc Revert General Discussion - Page 2
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
(I’m still tilted btw) | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On April 19 2018 00:56 Slusher wrote: An assassin would be the theoretical counter but not everyone can squeeze fish between 3 tanks like Faker vs KSV (I’m still tilted btw) tanks counter assassins though. I mean theoretical counter to 4 tanks and 1 damage dealer should be 3 tanks and 2 damage dealers. but that depends on having mages that are good against tanks and maybe right now the good ones are weak to getting engaged on that or bruisers/bruisery mages like swain/vlad who can easily aoe down the tanks and heal up. I mean if a team is picking 4 tanks there should be champs who can just run in and bop the adc who doesn't have any shields but thats assuming you can deal with all the CC to get through | ||
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General_Winter
United States719 Posts
On April 19 2018 02:44 Slayer91 wrote: I mean if a team is picking 4 tanks there should be champs who can just run in and bop the adc who doesn't have any shields but thats assuming you can deal with all the CC to get through While there is kind of a champ that does this. Olaf’s ult let’s him ignore CC and he bobs adcs pretty quickly if he gets on them. He was pick ban in most of the LCK playoffs. Maybe there need to be more divers that can weave through tanks to hit the adcs. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
I’ve been putting off my post about why I don’t really like playing Fizz anymore because I didn’t want to sound like a bitch when he isn’t that bad but I think it fits this topic so I’ll talk about it. First of all the whole assassin update design goal of require 2+ seconds to do full damage was bad and they should have known it was bad and promoted bruiser builds because ekko was designed this way out of the gate, and while he has been fringe as a damage champion, he has only ever been t1 as a tank. Fizz’s base damages have been brutalized over the years from stretches of actually being an op assassin and from being a bruiser. So Riot had the idea of the Damage amp ult, which was not perfect but it worked and was fun. For the assassin update they packed all of his damage into the w price and his ult when thrown from an easily reactable range. At first people declared the ult busted because the hit box was busted /much larger than the graphic. Nobody liked this not even Fizz players so I’m not saying it shouldn’t have been nerfed but I think when people think about Fizz ult they think of the broken latch range from launch because his ult sucks dick now. You’re basically forced to throw out wishful thinking ult s and prepare yourself for the ? Spamming when you’re opponent isn’t afk. Hey but you still have the w right? Yes you do but if it’s not applied via fish a lot of characters can just kill you before it procs Xayah and Kai’sa and late enough even Cait if you aren’t snowballing. I actually have been playing a lot of Fizz top conq recently for fun I don’t think it’s particularly strong but it’s fun and I still like the hero. But I find playing him mid to be more stressful than fun for about a year now and only play it in late pick adventagous situations. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
've watered down my stance a little but it still feels like most obvious issue is ADC/Botlane scales so hard and so fast that you don't really want or need anyone else to do damage This is true currently, although the KZ example (G3, right?) isn't too good I feel because Kai'Sa is busted asf, and Varus actually wasn't doing too well against the front line. ADC have always been insanely strong in comp meta This is not true. There have been times when ADC felt very weak, which was when we first started seeing utility ADC, aka Ashe/Jhin/Varus. These champs were chosen over the real DPS threats because they brought decent damage, but more importantly brought CC so that even when they fell behind they were relevant. But then a new season came with new masteries and a new meta, and suddenly the same picks started doing a ton of damage as well (Lethality meta). My problem with bot lane right now is that ADC have become incredibly high DPS, while tanks have become incredibly tanky. It's basically become an arms race where if one gets put behind, they get dumped on by the other one. The ADC will always win in the long term because their raw DPS outscales maximum tankiness achievable by 90% of tanks. Meanwhile you have assassins lurking right behind the corner waiting for the meta to shift in their favour, because they blow up ADC so ridiculously fast. Rengar/Kha/Zed/Fizz etc. can one shot ADC very easily, some assassins don't even need their full spell rotation when ahead. In competitive this is much harder, but in soloQ it means as an ADC you have to pray your support picks smartly or has insane reaction and knows what he's doing. I would gladly give up ADC DPS for more tankiness. Nerf their itemization scaling and buff scaling health, or rework their items. What about a built in shield ADC item? What about a flash ADC item? Spellshield? And in return, gut support itemization, remove shield and healing items from the game, give supports stronger CC or damage instead. Give these things directly to the ADC instead, turn supports into strong team fighters. Delete Janna and Lulu from the game. Kogmaw used to be a hyper carry but now he basically peaks off 2 items. Rageblade is still a big problem in the bot lane. I want to go back the days of TF Kog, because he spiked with the item, but did not reach the killer DPS stage. It was also very expensive, delaying the spike even more. Tbh, two item Kog (TF + BotRK) has always been big DPS, but Rageblade has allowed him to reach that stage much faster, foregoing that interesting bursty Sheen spike. Mixed damage has really taken over the bot lane this season. Kog/Varus are staple picks, and Kai'Sa is retardedly strong right now. Fundamental game mechanics like tank items and stat scaling are not balanced around this state. It's the same reason original Ryze was reworked, his scaling with mana completely fucked with the balance of items like FH or old Banshees. | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On April 19 2018 04:12 Slusher wrote: Yes I’m saying assassins should be able to fill that role but currently they suck at it (unless you’re Faker) I’ve been putting off my post about why I don’t really like playing Fizz anymore because I didn’t want to sound like a bitch when he isn’t that bad but I think it fits this topic so I’ll talk about it. First of all the whole assassin update design goal of require 2+ seconds to do full damage was bad and they should have known it was bad and promoted bruiser builds because ekko was designed this way out of the gate, and while he has been fringe as a damage champion, he has only ever been t1 as a tank. Fizz’s base damages have been brutalized over the years from stretches of actually being an op assassin and from being a bruiser. So Riot had the idea of the Damage amp ult, which was not perfect but it worked and was fun. For the assassin update they packed all of his damage into the w price and his ult when thrown from an easily reactable range. At first people declared the ult busted because the hit box was busted /much larger than the graphic. Nobody liked this not even Fizz players so I’m not saying it shouldn’t have been nerfed but I think when people think about Fizz ult they think of the broken latch range from launch because his ult sucks dick now. You’re basically forced to throw out wishful thinking ult s and prepare yourself for the ? Spamming when you’re opponent isn’t afk. Hey but you still have the w right? Yes you do but if it’s not applied via fish a lot of characters can just kill you before it procs Xayah and Kai’sa and late enough even Cait if you aren’t snowballing. I actually have been playing a lot of Fizz top conq recently for fun I don’t think it’s particularly strong but it’s fun and I still like the hero. But I find playing him mid to be more stressful than fun for about a year now and only play it in late pick adventagous situations. assassins are absolutely not supposed to do that though they are supposed to be able to kill isolated targets not a team with 8 cc spells and a 1000 damage feast all ready to use on you <1s after you go in On April 19 2018 03:15 General_Winter wrote: While there is kind of a champ that does this. Olaf’s ult let’s him ignore CC and he bobs adcs pretty quickly if he gets on them. He was pick ban in most of the LCK playoffs. Maybe there need to be more divers that can weave through tanks to hit the adcs. its pretty easy to focus a single champion though you would need 2-3 divers and peeling is just way easier right now. Remeber the old RG homeguard maokai teleports those were not fun for adcs lol | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
This is not true. There have been times when ADC felt very weak, which was when we first started seeing utility ADC, aka Ashe/Jhin/Varus. These champs were chosen over the real DPS threats because they brought decent damage, but more importantly brought CC so that even when they fell behind they were relevant. But then a new season came with new masteries and a new meta, and suddenly the same picks started doing a ton of damage as well (Lethality meta). I think the whole "ADC 2017" thing was more a meme than actual truth. If you looked at the kind of comps people were running there, the ADC were still doing huge amounts of work for the team. Varus was a poke monster at the start. Ashe/Jihn did a ton of damage while offering good utility. The issue was more that the other ADC took too long to come online compared to those ones. Lethality meta was before the new masteries, at the start of last season. Essentially every time "ADC are weak" has been true is more like they aren't insanely OP than actually weak. It's just they so used to being the sole focus of a team that when you take a little bit of power away suddenly people freak out. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On April 19 2018 17:36 Numy wrote: I think the whole "ADC 2017" thing was more a meme than actual truth. If you looked at the kind of comps people were running there, the ADC were still doing huge amounts of work for the team. Varus was a poke monster at the start. Ashe/Jihn did a ton of damage while offering good utility. The issue was more that the other ADC took too long to come online compared to those ones. Lethality meta was before the new masteries, at the start of last season. Essentially every time "ADC are weak" has been true is more like they aren't insanely OP than actually weak. It's just they so used to being the sole focus of a team that when you take a little bit of power away suddenly people freak out. The actual reason people complain is that the role in general is kinda shit by itself. You need a proper team comp and to be ahead in farm to be useful which isn't something you can get reliably. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
On April 19 2018 18:40 nafta wrote: The actual reason people complain is that the role in general is kinda shit by itself. You need a proper team comp and to be ahead in farm to be useful which isn't something you can get reliably. I can agree with this, it's pretty much the reason I listed random ideas above. ADC needs more independent playmaking, and give up DPS in return. ADC are incredibly squishy these days. way more than in the very early seasons, but in return they do absurd DPS. The risk-to-reward ratio does not truly hold for certain game mechanics, like ranged DPS, because it assumes balance in a vacuum. If ADC could do 25% more damage in return for giving up 25% of their health, I'm sure pros would take it. We'd see Janna/Karma/Lulu mid + Braum/Tahm support every god damn game though. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
ADCs sort of scale off their support as well as their natural scaling. Riot has done little to balance according to how much stronger supports have gotten, seasons ago winning botlane was like having 1½ fed members now it's closer to have 3 since both are individually strong and the support basically give anyone they help 1-1½ items worth of stats from their immense utility and/or shields/heals. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On top of that, you might look at why "party in the botlane" has become such a common strategy. TP top, often TP mid, semiglobals in mid (from safe champs like Galio and Taliah) along with the PVE/Waveclear mid meta has made actually doing things in other lanes fairly rare. Indeed, after the initial party or 2 the teams generally park themselves in mid halfheartedly jockying for 1-2 potshots on a turret per wave and setting up for neutrals. Since no one freezes waves in the long lanes, people just shove, then wait for the other laner to shove, etc. In other eras you would feel insane having an Azir and Caitlyn in the same lane because you are just losing farm way too much, but now they don't really need to care (also a sneaky reason why SKT fell off, they were the best farm allocation team S5-7). | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
This is why I suggested the zeal / lost chapter scenario lowers the scaling a bit (although it could just make reaver adcs op) but idk. Better people than me to balance this game I'm just trying to say tanks and support mids are only op because of adc not because of their match ups | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.gyazo.com/e8365eb627749ea5612be89b2ebf22e3.png) | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
I double checked, and I might be wrong, but BotRK was not a real meta item until S4. It saw almost 0 play in S2, and was only used on Vayne/Twitch/Zed S3. Only in S4 did we start seeing it on Kog/Lucian/Trist and a whole bunch of other champs. Probably because mid-way through the season Riot thought changing it from 5% current health to 8% was a good idea. support mids When I think of it retrospectively, I think the bigger problem with support mids was that they were simply too good at laning, not that they were oppressive heal/shield bots (which was frustrating, don't get me wrong). Watching Faker or Apdo lane with Lulu, getting kills and applying massive pressure on the map, on a champ who's main focus is to ult the carry when they're low, was just disgustingly imbalanced. | ||
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AdsMoFro
Japan4761 Posts
It's not like I feel he is the problem and he doesn't seem to be too strong early or mid game, but there are these late game teamfights where he's dashing everywhere, knocking up 5 people and just fucking shit up in general. Doesn't help that I play early game junglers that become non-champions at 20 minutes, I guess. | ||
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