EPTIts very clear when hes comfortably first picked/blind picked in a vast majority of matches.
Like seriously dude are you trolling?
[Patch 5.15] Fiora Remake General Discussion - Page 20
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Purge
Canada372 Posts
Its very clear when hes comfortably first picked/blind picked in a vast majority of matches. Like seriously dude are you trolling? | ||
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Gahlo
United States35130 Posts
On August 10 2015 11:04 Goumindong wrote: I am not and have not ever shifted goalposts. I mean you all keep doing so it can be hard to keep up with whatever insane claim you're making today but no I aused the same set of numbers each time, picked them irrespective of their value at the time and picked the most relevant statistics. I just don't understand why you guys think he is so strong. Do you not understand the champion of something? "Part of that is that his early adoption tended to be biased towards better teams (GE/Faker being basically the only ones who picked him in Korea in the spring for example)" Uh huh, sure. Professionals think he's good. They, generally, know far better the state of the game than people outside the scene do. That by itself should be enough. Secondarily, notice how nobody else is backing up your opinion. Niche shit like FotM being better on tank junglers than Warmogs got some backing. Hell, I even got at least 1 person to agree that Banner, while not ideal, isn't a steaming pile on Nidalee. So, you know what, go ahead. Keep your deluded little bubble where Viktor is overhyped and nobody knows it but you because nobody else understands. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
On August 10 2015 11:48 Ketara wrote: Man, I remember when people thought new Viktor was bad. Those were the insane old Viktor players. They still randomly say old Viktor was better. Better known as "TL Hipsters" | ||
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Purge
Canada372 Posts
This forum makes me lol In their defense syndra was better than him for a bit, but only marginally so - then she got bugged into oblivion and he became meta. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On August 10 2015 11:48 Ketara wrote: Man, I remember when people thought new Viktor was bad. I don't think he does that well in solo queue. So there's that. For competitive, I think he started out as a counterpick to Azir since other picks such as Syndra (and maybe Cassiopeia?) were either bad or got gutted. As professional players spent more time playing Viktor they realized Viktor is actually not bad at all. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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Purge
Canada372 Posts
What we do need in the meta are a Anivia that isnt stupidly blue reliant so she can compete. She'd be meta if she was able to be more independent. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
Or decrease the costs on her other spells, and don't have the cost increase per level | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On August 10 2015 13:01 Purge wrote: Naa hes not blatantly broken as people are making him out to be. I actually dont think Syndra is really all that bad. But hes still top 2 right now. What we do need in the meta are a Anivia that isnt stupidly blue reliant so she can compete. She'd be meta if she was able to be more independent. i sincerely doubt that she'll ever be truly meta. even in s1/2 when it was strongly suited towards her because of how overpowered blue buff and athenes were, only like 3 people played her successfully and she was overshadowed by orianna, karthus and the like. On August 10 2015 11:49 cLutZ wrote: Those were the insane old Viktor players. They still randomly say old Viktor was better. Better known as "TL Hipsters" riot has a pretty strong record of reworking or over-tweaking characters that are essentially fine, just strictly underplayed. often the results can/are that the original was better but no one played them. after the changes people feel like playing them to try them out and realize the strengths that were either always there or that the previous competition was all nerfed into the ground. case in point look at current devourer. | ||
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Ethelis
United States2396 Posts
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On August 10 2015 11:11 cLutZ wrote: You apparently don't. Why do you think he isn't strong, and who are the mids you would rank ahead of him? I've told you like 30 times why he isn't strong. He doesn't win games. Winning games is what matters. He has a lot of listable advantages but they're either not advantages or they've got commensurate disadvantages if that doesn't translate into won games. If you're going to be considered "the best mid lane champion" then you've got to at least have one of the highest win rates for all of the mid lane champions. TF. Azir. Lulu, Ezreal are all clearly better[Kog'Maw should be, but isn't played as much as i think he ought to maybe i am not seeing his clear counter that is stopping this]. Azir and TF alone justify Viktor being in the meta despite not being a top tier pick(as he is strong against both of them). Maybe Cassiopea (but she has fallen off pretty hard unless i am missing a lot of her picks), Maybe LeBlanc On August 10 2015 11:52 Purge wrote: I remember when I was told that he'd never be good because Syndra was a better version of him in every way. The irony still makes me giggle :D This forum makes me lol In their defense syndra was better than him for a bit, but only marginally so - then she got bugged into oblivion and he became meta. What you're forgetting is that all of the comparable champions got nerfed doubly, both with nerfs specifically to the champions but also with nerfs to their itemization. Syndra, Ahri, et all lost DFG entirely. Ziggs/Xerath lost Athenes [it no longer had enough MP5 to sustain their poke and lost 20 AP and 20 MR] Those were all pretty amazing changes that, without them wouldn't have let viktor come into play. On August 10 2015 11:19 Gahlo wrote: "Part of that is that his early adoption tended to be biased towards better teams (GE/Faker being basically the only ones who picked him in Korea in the spring for example)" Uh huh, sure.. In S5 Korea Spring, Viktor was played 11 times. 5 Times by GE Tigers, 3 times by Faker, 3 times by others. That is clearly not a balanced set of picks between the strong and weak teams. | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On August 10 2015 14:31 Goumindong wrote: I've told you like 30 times why he isn't strong. He doesn't win games. Winning games is what matters. He has a lot of listable advantages but they're either not advantages or they've got commensurate disadvantages if that doesn't translate into won games. If you're going to be considered "the best mid lane champion" then you've got to at least have one of the highest win rates for all of the mid lane champions. TF. Azir. Lulu, Ezreal are all clearly better[Kog'Maw should be, but isn't played as much as i think he ought to maybe i am not seeing his clear counter that is stopping this]. Azir and TF alone justify Viktor being in the meta despite not being a top tier pick(as he is strong against both of them). Maybe Cassiopea (but she has fallen off pretty hard unless i am missing a lot of her picks), Maybe LeBlanc What you're forgetting is that all of the comparable champions got nerfed doubly, both with nerfs specifically to the champions but also with nerfs to their itemization. Syndra, Ahri, et all lost DFG entirely. Ziggs/Xerath lost Athenes [it no longer had enough MP5 to sustain their poke and lost 20 AP and 20 MR] Those were all pretty amazing changes that, without them wouldn't have let viktor come into play. In S5 Korea Spring, Viktor was played 11 times. 5 Times by GE Tigers, 3 times by Faker, 3 times by others. That is clearly not a balanced set of picks between the strong and weak teams. i feel that kog is specifically not a top tier pick because your team has to sacrifice 30 minutes of the game to get him to a point where he can effectively carry | ||
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
On August 10 2015 14:31 Goumindong wrote: TF. Azir. Lulu, Ezreal are all clearly better[Kog'Maw should be, but isn't played as much as i think he ought to maybe i am not seeing his clear counter that is stopping this]. Azir and TF alone justify Viktor being in the meta despite not being a top tier pick(as he is strong against both of them). Maybe Cassiopea (but she has fallen off pretty hard unless i am missing a lot of her picks), Maybe LeBlanc TF is easily counterpickable. Azir is probably superior to Viktor, this is not really important, being #2 is not a detriment. Lulu, using your own stats, is 37% in LCK and EZ is 47% in LPL. You are basically making things up. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On August 10 2015 14:48 cLutZ wrote: TF is easily counterpickable. Azir is probably superior to Viktor, this is not really important, being #2 is not a detriment. Lulu, using your own stats, is 37% in LCK and EZ is 47% in LPL. You are basically making things up. I used global stats until you all were like "no he is shit hot in Korea" where then I had to explain that no that is not true either. Yes lulu is weaker in the LCK and Ez slightly weaker in LPL. And Viktor has a 20% win rate in NA LCS (3/19 not including TLs playoff, 4/20 including it) On August 10 2015 15:09 krndandaman wrote: Are you taking into account Viktor's value as a first/blind pick mid? I don't think evaluating winrates takes into account his flexibility as a pick. It's a large reason of why he's such high priority. Picking champs like TF, Kog, Ezreal, etc. first or blind takes away a lot of flexibility from your next picks/comp whereas the Viktor pick allows you to adjust to the enemy draft better since you have a lot more options. I mean I guess you could try to argue that more flexible drafts should translate into higher winrates but that would be a whole other discussion. Win rate takes that into account yes. As the power of the allowed picks would cause viktors win rate to rise. Edit: I mean if a more flexible draft didn't cause your win rate to go up then it's not an advantage. That is axiomatic; an advantage is something that makes it more likely for you to win and a disadvantage is something that makes it more likely that you will lose. The only way FP Viktor could be an advantage that is not showing up would be if there was a blue side win disadvantage tto start such that the delta is positive while still under 50%. I do not believe that there is a blue side disadvantage though. | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
Also to address how FP Viktor could be an advantage that doesn't show up in winrate is that perhaps Viktor is simply so strong that he HAS to be FP'd at the risk of giving the opposing team Viktor + another high priority champ. Or perhaps that when he's not banned, teams have specific strategies to counter his FP (or they simply pick him if left to second pick, which WOULD show up in the stats normally). | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
If a champion has a high winrate, that is an indicator that they are good. If a champion has a low winrate, that does not mean they are bad. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35130 Posts
On August 10 2015 14:31 Goumindong wrote: In S5 Korea Spring, Viktor was played 11 times. 5 Times by GE Tigers, 3 times by Faker, 3 times by others. That is clearly not a balanced set of picks between the strong and weak teams. And if we look at recent play and filter out wildcard/challenger teams, Viktor has a 20-19 record. But if we filter out Faker and Kuro we end up with 19-17. But if we aren't counting when he's picked by the best mids, we should be able to discard games where he is played by bad mids/teams, no? There goes 1 loss from Shiphtur, 1 loss from IM, 2 losses from Giants, 1 loss and 1 win from Sbenu, 2 losses from UP, 2 losses from Masters3, and 1 loss from WE. That comes to a 1-10 reduction. Now Viktor is 18-7. Look at that, it's almost like he's a good champion! | ||
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![[image loading]](http://puu.sh/jvFqT/517beb5688.png)
