EPT[Patch 5.15] Fiora Remake General Discussion - Page 22
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Reminder the PBE thread has been revived - please take PBE discussion there, thanks! http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/491813-pbe-515-juggernaughts-general-discussion | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On August 10 2015 23:04 JimmiC wrote: I'm not even sure what the argument is about. Is it is Viktor good or bad?Because it's clear he's a good mid or he wouldn't get picked. Or is it is he OP or balanced? Because I think while he is good and high picked, I don't find him to be oppressively so. I would rather see others who are under played tuned up a little to match him rather then him tuned down. I think Vik is in a great place. He does basically everything you want in a mid, I think it's a rework we should give Riot some credit for since this thread spends a awful lot of time pointing out where we feel they screw up. The other odd thing I see is alaric arguing against Vik even though it's his site swag. I wonder what the psychology to that is, most others pump up there favorite or most played champ not the opposite. because alaric is a compulsive whiner and because he loses a lot it must be that his preferred champ isn't op at all. anytime someone complains an alaric champ is strong (see; recent viktor or olaf posts about how strong they are) alaric will fire back about why they have weaknesses or something | ||
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JJMC
Portugal83 Posts
On August 10 2015 20:47 Slayer91 wrote: if you're talking about pre changes fiora she was stronk as fuck you had to hope to have good cc or strong exhaust reflexes and in solo q its not guaranteed at all. Disagree with that a lot. Fiora was a crap champion. Needed way too much to do decent, and could be completely smashed and destroyed to the point of utter irrelevance. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
never felt anything but strong but maybe at the masters/challenger level she falls off. I can't attest to that because I never reached that far. | ||
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JJMC
Portugal83 Posts
So my question would be, why would that champion be considered good? | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On August 10 2015 23:37 JJMC wrote: Meh, she worked as an assassin but was basically a worse Talon. She had no way to get out if she got in, and could be camped to infinity, exhausted, and in teamfights people would just split her ult. Not to mention her ult was buggy as hell, but she still managed to attain a 55% winrate. So my question would be, why would that champion be considered good? She has a couple things over talon. First off is that talon has issues against a team with oracles because he generally uses that as his escape skill. She has a double jump which is great for killing squishies without ult. Fioras speed boost would last after your ult so you often EQQ auto hydra in ult and then get the full speed boost to run out. What helped is that if they stayed grouped the hydra +ult would destroy them so they had to split up, and since they aren't sure where you're going to end and they are often running away you often can't be focused when you want to run out again. Exhaust is a problem for all assassins, they all have to try their best not to ult while its on them or ult before they can cast it. Her gank escapes were OK if she wasn't baited, with 2x jump and speed, but like most aggressive melees die easily if baited. Her ult is designed to be split, 5 tick ult doesn't do much more than 2 tick ult, and with the ravenous hydra on hits you pretty much do the same damage but with lots of aoe procs. Ult wasn't really that buggy, some problems with khazix stealth and bushes when you had no vision but I never had too much trouble (fixed when you got oracles vs khazix) She was very good against squishy champs that relied on their mobility or cc like say azir or viktor, since if you ult before the azir wall/viktor stun they are dead and even if azir jumps away you have a second jump. In metas full of tanks you shouldn't pick her but she was often very good against teams of squishies who clumped together. Good supports and tanks were her biggest counters and they are what are featured much more heavily in competitive than solo q play. Also her laning phase had great defensive cards with passive regen and low cd W to allow you to safely farm vs ranged heroes. (While maintaining strong all in from level 3-5 and then even better post 6) | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Her ult can act as a heal especially if people are grouped, and she's super good at cleaning up with 2 jumps, her steroid, and being aa-based. If Talon gets low, he has to gtfo till he gets E and Q back, basically. She snowballs really, really hard too, and dives better (Talon can't stay since towers have detection, his ult doesn't drop aggro). -- I spoke against Viktor's rework because it removed part of him that I liked (if you think current Viktor is a lane bully, you should have seen how he was pre-rework; pre-nerf flask and the ability of champions like Katarina, Morde or Kassadin to just start with a bunch of pots hurt lane bullies big times and he was affected, but it isn't as pronounced anymore). That's why I just called out people on spewing bullshit and making shortcuts that fit their narratives: I personally didn't say new Viktor was trash, but that he'd be bad compared to the old one. And he's definitely weaker in lane and up till around at least level 11-14 on numbers alone. What I misjudged was: - how much more damage his Q scaling would provide in the late game(and the impact of one of the snappiest animations on the buffed auto, making it really easy to apply the burst at max range) - the bugfixes and QoL on his ult making the periodic damage much more reliable (you couldn't assign it to follow people and it often ignored commands for ~1s after cast, letting people run out of it before it starts moving then it's catch 22) - that the meta would slow down so much, so that him being weaker till mid-lategame wouldn't be that big a trade-off for how much stronger (between numbers and ult fixes) his late game became. I still don't think he's as strong as people make it out to be-he's always had good damage numbers, his drawbacks were elsewhere. But in a vacuum there are much stronger laners (and he tends to lack kill potential by himself against long-range ones, see what I said about setup, you need to soften them beforehand because he doesn't have Ahri's or Fizz's jumping ability, Xerath's range or Annie's instant burst for example), he's still susceptible to assassins, and while his waveclear frees him a lot he's about average for a roamer (invading with a teammate works well because of his burst when he gets the jump, though). Since people tend to pick what's best in the areas currently valued, I'm surprised that an all-rounder like him is so popular. Maybe because, contrary to Orianna, he trades team utility for more damage (what with top providing a bunch of utility on average already). Now, why I'm personally not a fan of the execution on Viktor's concept, despite it being one of my favourite champions: - all-rounder. Riot said they're trying to differenciate champion roles and stuff, but I've always found weird that his range is all over the place (long with E, midrange with R and the need to stay somewhat close to chase well, short with Q (even post-rework, because he has to auto with 525 range), he's got a bit of poke, a bit of burst, a bit of personal tankiness, etc. - the curve. I liked that, even though his ult's range (and QoL issues) made him harder to play late, especially against big frontlines as Q damage fell off too, while he was strong in the midgame, he was strong. Heavy powerspikes, cost-effectiveness of the augment skewing them and giving him "comeback timings" (you were never a full item behind the opponent stat-wise), but Riot hit all of that to instead give him a very high lategame damage output and burst through Q. His new curve feels more like "generic/FotM mage" to me (I like Brand too, who's definitively in the same class of "good laning, blow stuff up midgame, fall back more and wait for opportunities late" as old Viktor, but weaker). It's for this reason that I dislike the PBE changes, because they aim at making his lategame stronger while weakening what still makes his early game (instaclear casters at 7 with mk1, instaclears the wave at 9 with an additional amp tome more or less), and putting most of the early augments' power into the augmented abilities, while giving very poor stats (iirc PBE mk2 becomes equal to live mk2 at level 15? That's super late). We already have Cassiopeia, Azir, Kog'Maw, etc. for this, why can't we have a strong midgame burst/zone control mage for a bit of diversity? - thematics. I'm not a fan of weakening the augments so much until late. I'd rather they don't catch up but the augmented abilities really make a difference (closer to the impact current augmented E has early), even if you have to raise the price for it. The way the PBE is headed, it's less Viktor as that guy who resolves his troubles by adapting/evolving, and more that guy who progressively enhances himself until he becomes super strong when he's finally complete. You may find it dumb, but as stated these are my personal beefs with the direction Riot has taken. The same way I'm not a fan of Darius as a blood-crazed axe dude over the stern general his lore depicted him as. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On August 11 2015 01:11 VayneAuthority wrote: solo q winrates >>>>> competitive for actual info. One pits equal skilled players and competitive the only thing that matters is which champion the team is playing for. Like if SKT wanted to they could probably get tahm kench a 80+ winrate easily. solo queue win rate means next to nothing. you have to consider, what bracket the character is being played in and who is playing them. if a character is only played by people who main that character then the win rate is inflated. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
Also alaric saying tf is safer than viktor gave me cancer. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
and for a recent example elise, her winrate was shit then she got buffed and surprise shes over 50% now and back in competitive. How does solo q winrate mean nothing? lol | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On August 11 2015 01:17 VayneAuthority wrote: not really, its not hard to take that into account, a good example is fiddlesticks who IS strong if left unattended but would never work in competitive due to how it works. doesnt mean hes not strong as a champion even though just mains play him. and for a recent example elise, her winrate was shit then she got buffed and surprise shes over 50% now and back in competitive. How does solo q winrate mean nothing? lol you can't compare fiddlesticks in solo queue and competitive when talking about solo queue win rates? the thing is that a lot of characters do better in certain elo brackets than others. the ones that have high win rates can easily be skewed because the largest % of the playerbase is sub-silver. so all you get from observing the win rate is that a given character is above average performance in bronze | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
Oh wait, he's just easy and is easy to gank for and snowball. How about some actual analysis instead of picking one context-less statistic? | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
On August 11 2015 01:24 Frolossus wrote: you can't compare fiddlesticks in solo queue and competitive when talking about solo queue win rates? the thing is that a lot of characters do better in certain elo brackets than others. the ones that have high win rates can easily be skewed because the largest % of the playerbase is sub-silver. so all you get from observing the win rate is that a given character is above average performance in bronze you know you can filter that stuff right? all the information im taking is from Diamond - challenger database. i dont understand the first part about fiddlesticks what you are saying there. Fiddlesticks isnt in competitive so theres nothing to compare there. im talking about champions that only "mains" play since you brought that up | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
On August 11 2015 01:25 Caiada wrote: Heimerdinger's 55%, motherfucker is super OP. Oh wait, he's just easy and is easy to gank for and snowball. How about some actual analysis instead of picking one context-less statistic? heimerdinger is the same as fiddlesticks. He is an incredibly strong champion but doesnt function in competitive since most of his gameplay is based on gimmicks like taking blue lvl 1 from enemy jungler and building promote/taking advantage of little communication in solo q so that he can simply push down your base and control the map. There's also his fast baron cheese of course. In competitive these gimmicks wouldnt work and teams would simply know how to rotate around his turret setups or just pick poke comps which heimer sucks against. As you can see this doesnt mean heimer isnt a strong champion, just that niche champions dont see play in competitive for a reason. | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
Ryze's highest since 5.11 is 51%. 50% on 5.12. Rumble's been 50% for a long time. Azir's never had a good winrate. Zed. Old, not-broken Elise in S4/S3. Leblanc. Ekko. Rek'sai. Gragas. They're not comparable. | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On August 11 2015 01:27 VayneAuthority wrote: you know you can filter that stuff right? all the information im taking is from Diamond - challenger database. i dont understand the first part about fiddlesticks what you are saying there. Fiddlesticks isnt in competitive so theres nothing to compare there. im talking about champions that only "mains" play since you brought that up the most that you can take out of looking at a character's win rate is that it follows a trend in X bracket. it is not a good indicator of relative power or balance at all. if you take a high/mid challenger fiddle main he'll likely stomp everyone through masters or so. while still performing at above average within his own bracket because it is his main. if a character has a low rate of play and a dedicated playerbase then all of their stats are not reflective of the state of the character. On August 11 2015 01:30 VayneAuthority wrote: heimerdinger is the same as fiddlesticks. He is an incredibly strong champion but doesnt function in competitive since most of his gameplay is based on gimmicks like taking blue lvl 1 from enemy jungler and building promote/taking advantage of little communication in solo q so that he can simply push down your base and control the map. There's also his fast baron cheese of course. In competitive these gimmicks wouldnt work and teams would simply know how to rotate around his turret setups or just pick poke comps which heimer sucks against. As you can see this doesnt mean heimer isnt a strong champion, just that niche champions dont see play in competitive for a reason. this is exactly summarizes the point that i'm trying to make that solo queue win rate means next to nothing. | ||
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