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On July 26 2015 03:02 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2015 03:00 Sufficiency wrote:On July 26 2015 02:55 nafta wrote:On July 26 2015 02:52 TheYango wrote:
I fail to see how seeing a number go up is any more context-less than seeing an arbitrary precious metal + division number. Without looking up statistics on the spread of people across divisions/Elos, both are equally meaningless and arbitrary. because you aren't part of the people who don't use their brain You might be giving people too much credit. The league system makes a lot of sense. Instead of giving the player the easy way in and out of an Elo bracket with the Elo system (which is way more important for Gold, which gets an end-of-season award), the league system will try to hold the player back until the system is reasonably confident that he can actually play in that bracket (via promotions, etc.). Once promoted, the player can stay in that bracket due to the confidence the system placed on the player. Well yeah exactly the system is aimed at people who give a shit about getting a pretty border not for the people who don't care about that stuff  .Say for me I value knowing where I actually stand a lot more than being in division one while playing only vs people in division 3.
How do you know you belong the Division 1 and others belong to Division 3?
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United States47024 Posts
One benefit I admit that I forgot to mention is that with hidden Elo, it's much easier for Riot to curtail Elo inflation, which was always a rampant problem of the system leading up to the league system's inception.
Prior to the league system, the only solution for Riot would be the end-of-season ladder reset, which really wasn't good enough.
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On July 26 2015 03:15 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2015 03:02 nafta wrote:On July 26 2015 03:00 Sufficiency wrote:On July 26 2015 02:55 nafta wrote:On July 26 2015 02:52 TheYango wrote:
I fail to see how seeing a number go up is any more context-less than seeing an arbitrary precious metal + division number. Without looking up statistics on the spread of people across divisions/Elos, both are equally meaningless and arbitrary. because you aren't part of the people who don't use their brain You might be giving people too much credit. The league system makes a lot of sense. Instead of giving the player the easy way in and out of an Elo bracket with the Elo system (which is way more important for Gold, which gets an end-of-season award), the league system will try to hold the player back until the system is reasonably confident that he can actually play in that bracket (via promotions, etc.). Once promoted, the player can stay in that bracket due to the confidence the system placed on the player. Well yeah exactly the system is aimed at people who give a shit about getting a pretty border not for the people who don't care about that stuff .Say for me I value knowing where I actually stand a lot more than being in division one while playing only vs people in division 3. How do you know you belong the Division 1 and others belong to Division 3?
Exactly.When I am in division one but when I look in my match histroy and everyone I play against is in division 3 it makes me question why am I division 1.Which in turn makes me want to see my actual mmr and not the shitty divisions which don't matter at all.It is just me guessing where I stand based on my gains/losses.
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On July 26 2015 03:30 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2015 03:15 Sufficiency wrote:On July 26 2015 03:02 nafta wrote:On July 26 2015 03:00 Sufficiency wrote:On July 26 2015 02:55 nafta wrote:On July 26 2015 02:52 TheYango wrote:
I fail to see how seeing a number go up is any more context-less than seeing an arbitrary precious metal + division number. Without looking up statistics on the spread of people across divisions/Elos, both are equally meaningless and arbitrary. because you aren't part of the people who don't use their brain You might be giving people too much credit. The league system makes a lot of sense. Instead of giving the player the easy way in and out of an Elo bracket with the Elo system (which is way more important for Gold, which gets an end-of-season award), the league system will try to hold the player back until the system is reasonably confident that he can actually play in that bracket (via promotions, etc.). Once promoted, the player can stay in that bracket due to the confidence the system placed on the player. Well yeah exactly the system is aimed at people who give a shit about getting a pretty border not for the people who don't care about that stuff .Say for me I value knowing where I actually stand a lot more than being in division one while playing only vs people in division 3. How do you know you belong the Division 1 and others belong to Division 3? Exactly.When I am in division one but when I look in my match histroy and everyone I play against is in division 3 it makes me question why am I division 1.Which in turn makes me want to see my actual mmr and not the shitty divisions which don't matter at all.It is just me guessing where I stand based on my gains/losses.
If you are in Division 1 you deserve to be there. Like I have said, due to promotion series, the league system will only raise you to Division 1 if it is reasonably confident about your skill level. There is no point to compare to other players in your team.
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Promotion series don't really matter. You can have the same winrate and either be promoted or not be promoted depending on whether you happen to have your good matches during the promotion series or not.
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On July 26 2015 03:15 TheYango wrote:
One benefit I admit that I forgot to mention is that with hidden Elo, it's much easier for Riot to curtail Elo inflation, which was always a rampant problem of the system leading up to the league system's inception.
Prior to the league system, the only solution for Riot would be the end-of-season ladder reset, which really wasn't good enough.
Elo doesn't inflate though. Only the ends get larger and that is largely due to real skill differential (IE they're winning enough so that the MMR difference between them and the next player is correct). We see the same thing with constantly inflating LP in the top tier. and because of that the variance issues in the top tiers don't go away.
You could say that it reduces perceived variance and that is true, but that comes at the cost of players biasing their assessment higher (since the reduction in variance is achieved by holding you in a higher tier longer than it should)On July 26 2015 03:09 Ansibled wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2015 03:08 Sufficiency wrote:On July 26 2015 02:56 TheYango wrote:On July 26 2015 02:50 Sufficiency wrote:
Secondly, a highly granulated Elo induces more ladder anxiety. If I just hit 1500 Elo, then I will stop playing since any loss will cause me to lose my perceived tier. If I cannot be easily demoted from Gold, then I will keep playing.
This argument was more valid at points in the past where demotion was harder/impossible. However, this ended up being subject to abuses like getting boosted to Platinum, and then being unable to be demoted so a bunch of people just hung out at Platinum V 0 LP. With the system as it is now after all the patching, I don't really think it's as different as you make it out to be. The only real "protection" from demotion at this point is the grace period post-promotion, but that in and of itself is not tied to the League system and could just as easily be implemented with numerical Elo. On July 26 2015 02:55 Caiada wrote:
Promotions, defined tiers, difficulty of demotion. It's a matter of perception.
None of these are inherently incompatible with fully visible Elo. They can all be implemented on top of visible Elo without the intentionally obscuring away information. Before the league system, players would just stop playing after getting 1500 Elo. It was more or less the same, except it is much harder to hit Gold V than 1500 Elo since the league system needs to be reasonably confident before it can place a player in Gold V. Previously, you just need to have one single lucky streak to do it. While it is true that you can still go down from (say) Gold IV to Gold V, it is still far harder than simply losing 100 Elo due to the promotion series that are built in place for the player to build confidence with the system. Gold V is much easier, Plat is the new Gold.
No. True plat/gold mmr is in precisely the same place it was before the shift.
What you're seeing is inflated assessments due to the system not downgrading people. Sufficiency says that it only moves people up once it's confidence is high but the data does not really support a sufficiently high confidence (because of how many more people there are in gold 5 compared to silver 4.
Additionally because there is the same(or more stringent) confidence for falling it's more correct to say that achieving the next "rank" of the ladder only requires playing a lot of games and letting random chance take over.
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I don't know how anyone can say demotion games are better for the casual public. There is nothing more infuriating then losing one game and suddenly becoming 4 games back or more from where you just where on the ladder. Its asinine to think that is somehow a better feature then every loss being exactly the same. Especially for people like me where I have spent the last month sitting between d2 and d1, constantly winning my promo then promptly being demoted again. you just find yourself in this hidden elo vortex where the losses piss me off a lot more then they should due to the perceived loss I receive when I get demoted. (probably like 6 demotions from d1 in 4 weeks, hilarious)
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
So was there any competitive ruling for XWX? Is he basically gone from NALCS? LPL? This story died and I wonder where it went.
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There hasn't been a competitive ruling yet, I think there were some rumours that TiP revoked his visa.
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I wonder if Riot forgot about him.
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Baa?21248 Posts
The "XiaoWeiXiao will be banned from participating in any Riot-affiliated League of Legends competition for an additional month" sounds conveniently like it is limited only to LCS lol.
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Yeah, I was wondering what 'Riot-affiliated' means. The ban is mainly during the off-season too.
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just a few months for elo boosting business AND selling a LCS account ....
elo boosting alone should have a harsh penalty as it is ruining games for 9 other people every single game.
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Baa?21248 Posts
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I mean Tencent could just say he's unbanned and then nothing Riot said would be wrong.
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On August 12 2015 11:10 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:We'll see lol.
He could if a rich team like EDG really wanted him and just bribed Tencent to let him have a spot.
The problem is, as many have stated, XWX isn't really highly desired in LPL. Maybe someone in LSPL might want him, we'll see.
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LSPL is Riot affiliated too since it feeds into LPL.
Demacia Cup is probably OK.
But ultimately, he just isn't that great of a player, so...
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Baa?21248 Posts
Mor ended up on the 2nd best team in China so...
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EPT
