EPT[Patch 5.11] Ryze is Balanced General Discussion - Page 23
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
 (That Viktor can't do that and respond to their own push non-withstanding.)But yeah I'm aware that my pool is pretty low-range, I played Swain long ago, bit of Cass of Lissandra. My longest range mage was when I played Syndra for a bit after release and I'd be bad because couldn't eyeball her Q range anymore. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
On June 19 2015 22:19 nafta wrote: orianna is the only champion in the game that can be picked in literally any mu and win.Your statements are quite ridiculous. Ahri? | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
It's not "I can't do anything against these champs!" but "I'm bored when I'm forced to PvE the minion waves because the other guy sits 1k+ range away and just clears, so I dislike the champs that can do it vs my usual picks". | ||
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las91
United States5080 Posts
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On June 19 2015 22:44 Alaric wrote: My statements are "pick Orianna vs Ziggs and if he doesn't want to interact with you, he pretty much won't have to because he clears from outside your range for cheap with Q." It's not "I can't do anything against these champs!" but "I'm bored when I'm forced to PvE the minion waves because the other guy sits 1k+ range away and just clears, so I dislike the champs that can do it vs my usual picks". You know there isn't only one lane in the game right? I mean you pick farm champs and complain when you have to play farm matchups how does this make sense? Ziggs can kill ahri pre6 but loses later. | ||
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las91
United States5080 Posts
On June 19 2015 23:17 nafta wrote: You know there isn't only one lane in the game right? I mean you pick farm champs and complain when you have to play farm matchups how does this make sense? Ziggs can kill ahri pre6 but loses later. Oh I meant Ahri has the advantage pretty much at all points -> if you can dodge his skillshots | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
And I know that if I roam against TF/Lux/Ziggs/Xerath they'll make an impact before me because of their ults' ranges, which doesn't help either. I did roam against Varus for example, but that doesn't change the fact that with his waveclear I can't stay away for too long wihtout sacrificing farm/the tower (and he can force me to take the (very) long way because lol-1625 range and chokepoints). Viktor is nowhere near the others as a "farm champ" ('cept maybe Varus) because he actually isn't that strong late game relative to others. I don't get your criticism that I "pick a farm champ" when that's the opposite: I try to be aggressive and actually interact with my opponents (wiht my level I certainly shouldn't be allowed to be the one bullying LB, Xerath or Zed with Orianna but I play very aggro most of the time and soloQers rarely handle it well) and they're the one who get afraid and sit away from me and just use their range to clear and sometimes lob a spell at me from max range for harass. I can't walk up to them since they'll just walk back, poke the guy trying to get closer, clear the wave at the same time, and so I can't really outpush them either since they hit the wave first. | ||
Harem
United States11393 Posts
On June 19 2015 22:19 nafta wrote: Viktor is completely risk free and clears waves super efficiently and orianna is the only champion in the game that can be picked in literally any mu and win.Your statements are quite ridiculous. Reminder that he is also the one who says stuff like that Viktor sucks in competitive. L O L On June 01 2015 08:20 Alaric wrote: | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
And if you don't, what does he bring that something like Azir doesn't? Frankly? In all the times they've used Viktor I've never though "oh that's cool/that's a nicely crafted team comp/this gameplan fits the Viktor pick so well!" without thinking "X champ would do better though". And he isn't really #2 in a bunch of areas to justify him as the "swis army knife" pick a la Thresh either. Edit: yup and I stand by that post. Viktor won't threaten a Gragas, Alistar, tank Hecarim, etc. the way Azir or Cass does, and you can't count on him to dive/flank an AP Kog or a Varus like Ahri, Zed or LB would be able to. Note that I'm not saying I won't listen if ou can argue what makes Viktor a top pick. I'm just saying I fail to see it, and what people most often quote (waveclear and raw damage) isn't near the top level for mages. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On June 20 2015 00:02 Alaric wrote: I still fail to see why you would pick Viktor over Xerath or Ziggs if you want the waveclear. And if you don't, what does he bring that something like Azir doesn't? Frankly? In all the times they've used Viktor I've never though "oh that's cool/that's a nicely crafted team comp/this gameplan fits the Viktor pick so well!" without thinking "X champ would do better though". And he isn't really #2 in a bunch of areas to justify him as the "swis army knife" pick a la Thresh either. Edit: yup and I stand by that post. Viktor won't threaten a Gragas, Alistar, tank Hecarim, etc. the way Azir or Cass does, and you can't count on him to dive/flank an AP Kog or a Varus like Ahri, Zed or LB would be able to. He has the best waveclear in the game for a substantial time once he gets upgraded augment (if its not true for you, your CSing is poor), his zone control is impeccable, he turns into a mini-Cass with Q-LB-Augment and has huge burst midgame. Just watch Faker, good god. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
If you're ready to compare buying Lichbane (you'll also need a CDR slot) and upgrading Q, along with the 525 aa range and his animation, to Cass' damage output, sustain (albeit it's been nerfed since, Viktor started getting picked before that), ~75 range dvantage and how smooth kiting is for her, you grossly overestimate him. Even with Lichbane tanks are still a pain for Viktor, and while Cass doesn't melt them in the midgame she still deals steady amounts of damage. Sure, Viktor with Lichbane and a few items can one-shot a squishy who didn't buy Banshee or something with EQauto, and that's an awful lot of damage. However, it's still the equivalent of 625 damage, that's very short for a squishy (Cass has Seraph's and possibly Rylai to make up for her natively low HP pool) and I wouldn't call a champion with such risk "optimal". His good cases are good, but his average and bad case are way below other champions. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On June 20 2015 00:47 Alaric wrote: But his burst has limited ranged compared to others, his waveclear is instant but also 1050 range only so it's not like he's overwhelmingly the best, and Q only becomes actually strong around level 13. If you're ready to compare buying Lichbane (you'll also need a CDR slot) and upgrading Q, along with the 525 aa range and his animation, to Cass' damage output, sustain (albeit it's been nerfed since, Viktor started getting picked before that), ~75 range dvantage and how smooth kiting is for her, you grossly overestimate him. Even with Lichbane tanks are still a pain for Viktor, and while Cass doesn't melt them in the midgame she still deals steady amounts of damage. Sure, Viktor with Lichbane and a few items can one-shot a squishy who didn't buy Banshee or something with EQauto, and that's an awful lot of damage. However, it's still the equivalent of 625 damage, that's very short for a squishy (Cass has Seraph's and possibly Rylai to make up for her natively low HP pool) and I wouldn't call a champion with such risk "optimal". His good cases are good, but his average and bad case are way below other champions. There's reasons why Viktor is a staple meta pick right now and Ziggs and Xerath aren't. You might not like them, but they do exist. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On June 20 2015 00:57 Gahlo wrote: There's reasons why Viktor is a staple meta pick right now and Ziggs and Xerath aren't. You might not like them, but they do exist. Past me would be absolutely giddy to see this statement. Current me is just like "meh, Azir is so much stronger" | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On June 20 2015 01:17 ticklishmusic wrote: Azir is probably in need of a nerf, he's been tuned for regular players who struggle with his unique style and his sort of clunkiness. In the hands of a pro who knows how to use him, he's kinda too good. I don't disagree, although he still has some weird clunkiness to him occasionally. One of the more notable quirks is trying to auto attack when a sand soldier is about to die, Azir starts the AA animation as the soldier dies, so he gets kinda stuck there, but nothing happens. I'm still figuring out all of his weird ranges, but he is really strong right now. Also east coast ping makes WEQ fancy combo hard, but I'm getting better at it. | ||
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Nos-
Canada12016 Posts
On June 20 2015 01:24 jcarlsoniv wrote: I don't disagree, although he still has some weird clunkiness to him occasionally. One of the more notable quirks is trying to auto attack when a sand soldier is about to die, Azir starts the AA animation as the soldier dies, so he gets kinda stuck there, but nothing happens. I'm still figuring out all of his weird ranges, but he is really strong right now. Also east coast ping makes WEQ fancy combo hard, but I'm getting better at it. if you don't get the combo off just say "it's intended behavior" :> | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
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