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On May 19 2015 23:53 justiceknight wrote:
how does ash new passive work? i hit the same target 2nd time and it crits forever?
Yup, but the 'crit' is not a regular crit. The damage is based off your crit modifiers, and can scale up to regular crit damage lategame, but is significantly weaker early.
From wiki:
+ Show Spoiler +
Here's a very ugly table I threw together to show some damage values. Rows are different Crit Chance values, columns are Crit damage values, and the table values are total damage when criting (in % of total AD). The column colors represent amount of Crit Damage from runes.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NbPXa4B.png?1)
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As long as your target is affected by Ashe's slow she will "crit" them. The damage done by her "crits" is essentially your theoretical average damage with your given crit % and crit damage.
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On May 19 2015 23:56 Seuss wrote:
As long as your target is affected by Ashe's slow she will "crit" them. The damage done by her "crits" is essentially your theoretical average damage with your given crit % and crit damage.
+10%, right?
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Correct, I was just avoiding unnecessary details/math because it would probably have been overkill given the question and how it was asked.
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The only thing that I dislike about the rework is how her crits only work after you proc your slow on them so it became much harder to duel people if they don't have potato reaction time.
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On May 20 2015 02:00 Slayer91 wrote:
just press W first then
Still hard.
Old Ashe hits first hit for 2.5 even if nuAshe is attacking at 1.4 /attack she needs 4 attacks to make up the difference of the first old Ashe crit.
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But wouldn't new Ashe with IE be hitting for 1.5 or so? And aren't you taking crit runes?
I'm not super clear on the formula I guess.
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On May 20 2015 02:38 Ketara wrote:
But wouldn't new Ashe with IE be hitting for 1.5 or so? And aren't you taking crit runes?
I'm not super clear on the formula I guess.
+ Show Spoiler +Total Damage: [1.10 + (%Critical Strike Chance × (1 + Bonus Critical Strike Damage)) ] %AD
The formula takes Crit Chance and Bonus Crit Damage into account, so if ashe just has an IE with no crit or crit damage from runes, her 'crit' autos hit for [1.10 + (.2 x (1 + .5))] = 1.4 = 140 % of her total AD.
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On May 20 2015 02:38 Ketara wrote:
But wouldn't new Ashe with IE be hitting for 1.5 or so? And aren't you taking crit runes?
I'm not super clear on the formula I guess.
True, nuAshe gets a lot out of crit runes. But by that same structure old Ashe has more AS/AD from runes. And God forbid someone/something eats Ashe's volley and an ally doesn't have a slow for her. Additionally old ashe could then forgo crit in favor of AD (IE + shiv as only crit items) and use that high AD for a big old crit burst.
I mean, old Ashe had legitimately strong burst, the ability to guarantee an IE/Shiv crit shouldn't be underestimated.
New Ashe has near guaranteed the lowest burst in the game of ADs. She doesn't have the ability to use shiv well anymore. (Because you need crit to get the damage up and have to volley first if you want to actually crit, so you need PD in order to have a reasonable crit chance). Which means she duels really poorly. Because you just can't wait for so many auto attacks to catch up to where you were. You'll be dead or peeled
Edit: old Ashe with IE has 20% crit. Has a 20% chance to crit twice in a row due to auto crit. Probability of critic at least twice in 4 auto attacks(assuming first auto crit) is at least 48%.
In order to catch up to old Ashe's damage nuAshe basically has to have q charged immediately during the fight.
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Oh okay I get it.
So you're not supposed to run crit runes on her? I am legit interested in this.
In a duel wouldn't she just apply the slow with R and then auto shiv crit on the first auto?
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United States47024 Posts
On May 20 2015 02:38 Ketara wrote:
But wouldn't new Ashe with IE be hitting for 1.5 or so? And aren't you taking crit runes?
I'm not super clear on the formula I guess.
The crit scaling component of the formula is entirely equivalent to your average damage based on your crit/crit damage. I.e. 20% chance of a 2x crit averages out to 20% bonus damage on each attack, which is equivalent to what you'd get from the crit scaling component on Ashe's new passive.
What this means is after the first attack, the crit scaling component doesn't alter your average DPS, the only thing that changes your average DPS is the fixed 10% bonus damage component. The other relevant point in this comparison is the first hit--for old Ashe, your first hit always crits because your passive built up to 100%. Conversely, on new Ashe, your first attack never crits if the Frost Shot slow isn't already on your target.
So for new Ashe to have a better outcome on a trade than old Ashe, she has to attack a sufficient number of times for 10% bonus damage per attack to result in higher extra damage than old Ashe's initial crit.
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On May 20 2015 03:15 Ketara wrote:
Oh okay I get it.
So you're not supposed to run crit runes on her? I am legit interested in this.
In a duel wouldn't she just apply the slow with R and then auto shiv crit on the first auto?
1) Yes Nu Ashe should probably have crit runes. Not sure how many atm but it's worth remembering that it reduces level 1 power and ability to last hit so it's not a free trade. Optimizing Ashe's damage from masteries is still "open" as far as I know.
2) For 1.7 times damage not 2.5 times damage (1.1 + 40x1.5) which is a big difference considering the total dps loss from going shiv (1.7 vs 1.95 crit mod, lower AS)
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I do think its super interesting that they changed her from having high frontliaded burst and low sustained dps to the opposite of that.
But I like the new version more, because she was always the "support ADC" who initiated for her team and then required them to follow through for her. The new version seems more in line with that identity.
I think new Ashe is super cool concept wise and I'm sad that I can't play and see what its actually like in games.
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United States47024 Posts
TBH I feel like her passive mechanic is just a test-bed for them to see how alternative crit mechanics with lower variance work out. If it goes over well we might see a larger overhaul of how crit works in the game.
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Not that this is math, but for sustained damage to be worth as much as burst, in League, it has to be substantially higher. Probably 30% higher at least.
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On May 20 2015 03:32 TheYango wrote:
TBH I feel like her passive mechanic is just a test-bed for them to see how alternative crit mechanics with lower variance work out. If it goes over well we might see a larger overhaul of how crit works in the game.
100% agree and want it to happen immediately.
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On May 20 2015 03:32 TheYango wrote:
TBH I feel like her passive mechanic is just a test-bed for them to see how alternative crit mechanics with lower variance work out. If it goes over well we might see a larger overhaul of how crit works in the game.
They said multiple times, including before, and right after announcing Ashe as a result of the same question, that they actually like how crit works atm.
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I know they are saying that now, but I think there is mounting evidence to support a contrary standpoint and I think they are going to change their opinion eventually.
Just need to have a few more high profile pro games where its obvious that an errant crit decides a late game team fight and thus the entire game.
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EPT
