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On April 22 2015 02:38 ticklishmusic wrote:
Zyra is okay, she does stupid amounts of damage. Wins lane really hard against most melee supports from my experience (and Zyra is one of my worst supports), but you become pretty weak past laning phase. Her ult also has a pretty ass cast range, so you can only use it as a counter initiate/ disengage tool.
her ult is just fine considering it's teh size of a amumu ult...
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sandsoldiers don't have AI, it's 100% manual
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On April 22 2015 04:24 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 04:08 Sonnington wrote:
You just can't touch Zyra's kit in any way or she'll be too OP. She has plenty of damage, great zone control, and lots of CC. Her biggest weakness is her base stats being Sona level and her move speed being the lowest in the game.
The thing that makes Kennen better is his escape and instant stun. It's much harder to flash a Kennen Q than a Zyra snare. Also he can move his ult AOE unlike Zyra.
Also I'll say it for the millionth time, when they gave her range indicators for her plants it screwed up the plant AI and made it less reliable. Sometimes they just sit there and don't do anything when they should be attacking minions/enemies. I disagree that they can't tweak her a bit. Right now if she misses her E in lane she's basically dead, and its a really slow projectile. Morg or Janna can miss Q and basically it means they took a bad trade, thats really the problem for Zyra support. IMO, however, it probably would be best to try to shift Zyra towards the midlane more and nerf her plant base damages while giving them scaling. Plus we have Azir, so no reason to not give them the sandsoldier AI.
I don't understand in what situation you make this distinction. Even if she misses a snare she still has the slow from the plants. You also shouldn't harass in lane by using E like you would using Morgana's Q. It's more of a counter-engage/disengage skill. In any event, she does have lower MS and defensive stats than Janna and Morgana and that's because she deals high burst damage, very reliable CC in terms of her ult, IMO the best zone control with her plants, and good dps even after she's died. If you gave her more mobility, faster snare, or better base stats she would become OP.
Lets put this into perspective. This is a support that has a 50% winrate in bronze, and a 53%-52.4% winrate in plat and diamond. Her winrate only goes up so it's safe to say she has a high skill ceiling. She's a lane bully whose damage competes with the ADC and solo laners even on a support budget. You can't just make this champion more reliable and more forgiving without making her OP.
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I actually wasn't aware of her soloQ rates because all balance comments I make are related to being able to see them in pro play and the quality of those games from a viewing perspective.
Personally I do prefer Morg in lane to Zyra because you can still escape a 3v2 gank without hitting a perfect Q, plus her ult is much easier for me to use. But that is me, and I've been playing Morgana in 3 lanes since Season 2, so it is whatever.
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On April 22 2015 01:10 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 00:48 Alaric wrote:Belgians can't participate in France's battleground zzz. I don't get our ranked 5s team. We screw up against Silver (our team is mid Silver and me Gold III atm), and then we face a Silver + Plat III Jinx, with our botlane forgetting to trade after the picks, and we roll them. On April 22 2015 00:43 Prog wrote:
UK/Ireland has a tournament, but I'm not sure we could form a decent team. Teut/Dota/Me/??? Fusilero is mid-Plat iirc. Prog said "decent"
Diamondprox was 1800 elo when he got picked up by M5, which would've put him high gold at the time. You just never know.
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On April 22 2015 07:39 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 01:10 wei2coolman wrote:On April 22 2015 00:48 Alaric wrote:Belgians can't participate in France's battleground zzz. I don't get our ranked 5s team. We screw up against Silver (our team is mid Silver and me Gold III atm), and then we face a Silver + Plat III Jinx, with our botlane forgetting to trade after the picks, and we roll them. On April 22 2015 00:43 Prog wrote:
UK/Ireland has a tournament, but I'm not sure we could form a decent team. Teut/Dota/Me/??? Fusilero is mid-Plat iirc. Prog said "decent" Diamondprox was 1800 elo when he got picked up by M5, which would've put him high gold at the time. You just never know.
Yeah, and Elementz was in Plat, your point? lol.
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So Fusilero in mid-plat could be a lot better than "decent", do you even remember what you were posting about or does the shitposting just kinda shmush together?
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Zyra doesn't lane like Morgana too, she has 575 aa range (and a shitty animation, I'll give you that, although the projectile speed makes it easy to avoid minion retribution) compared to Morg's 450 (it used to be 425 with Annie's base AS and a worse animation  ).
Also a lower cd on Q and more damage. As a support you don't "fish" for roots like Morgana, you harass aggessively with autos and Qs to try and deny farm or make the enemy pay for it. Of course if you push without much vision and vs aggressive junglers it's very risky since her E animation and base MS mean you need spacing (and stuff like Lee Q is still easy to hit while rooted to catch up).
Zyra got her E speed and width nerfed because it was really easy for her to hit it too and with her damage on top of it she became an unbearable bully that would kill the AD by herself or 1v2 the lane while hers farm.
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Hey, I can still do things, guys.. ;_;
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On April 22 2015 08:03 Alaric wrote:Zyra doesn't lane like Morgana too, she has 575 aa range (and a shitty animation, I'll give you that, although the projectile speed makes it easy to avoid minion retribution) compared to Morg's 450 (it used to be 425 with Annie's base AS and a worse animation ). Also a lower cd on Q and more damage. As a support you don't "fish" for roots like Morgana, you harass aggessively with autos and Qs to try and deny farm or make the enemy pay for it. Of course if you push without much vision and vs aggressive junglers it's very risky since her E animation and base MS mean you need spacing (and stuff like Lee Q is still easy to hit while rooted to catch up). Zyra got her E speed and width nerfed because it was really easy for her to hit it too and with her damage on top of it she became an unbearable bully that would kill the AD by herself or 1v2 the lane while hers farm.
Zyras AA animation is amazing, wtf are you talking about?
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The wind-up is super long imo, like Lulu's. It's pretty smooth for harassing on paper, but it also reduces her range advantage as you can close in and retort before she's done.
Our junglers maybe won't be available for battlegrounds. D:
Or rather, it starts at 5 PM, one of them is away for the week-end and the other will be there till 7 PM, 7:30 PM at the latest.
Maybe we'll have to find someone else by the 23rd and hope we can swap players between sets if we win the first one.
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On April 22 2015 08:32 Alaric wrote:
The wind-up is super long imo, like Lulu's. It's pretty smooth for harassing on paper, but it also reduces her range advantage as you can close in and retort before she's done.
Our junglers maybe won't be available for battlegrounds. D:
Or rather, it starts at 5 PM, one of them is away for the week-end and the other will be there till 7 PM, 7:30 PM at the latest.
Maybe we'll have to find someone else by the 23rd and hope we can swap players between sets if we win the first one.
I'm pretty sure her AA animation is much shorter than Lulu's, I would completely agree with your statement if you were speaking specifically about Lulu.
Weird.
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Alright I need advice again. How to survive as Xerath? I constantly die in lane against mid/jungler, forcing 2-3 summoner's at best (and once they have an advantage they can just 100-0 me without summs). I usually bounce back but I don't remember when's last time my opponent wasn't fed. I tried different summs myself (heal, cleanse, ghost) and nothing seems to really work. Additionally should I try to buy items like RoA, Rylai's, Banshee's or Guardian Angel to survive flashgapclosers later? I only tried Zhonya and it seems like if someone jumped on me then I'm dead, no matter if I have Zhonya's, flash, heal or cleanse.
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On April 22 2015 08:35 AlterKot wrote:
Alright I need advice again. How to survive as Xerath? I constantly die in lane against mid/jungler, forcing 2-3 summoner's at best (and once they have an advantage they can just 100-0 me without summs). I usually bounce back but I don't remember when's last time my opponent wasn't fed. I tried different summs myself (heal, cleanse, ghost) and nothing seems to really work. Additionally should I try to buy items like RoA, Rylai's, Banshee's or Guardian Angel to survive flashgapclosers later? I only tried Zhonya and it seems like if someone jumped on me then I'm dead, no matter if I have Zhonya's, flash, heal or cleanse.
Flat MR + hp runes should help against some AP matchups, usually it's a matter of warding river properly to prevent getting early ganked by junglers. If you're really having difficulty surviving getting a 2nd DRing or early Chalice can do wonders.
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I always build chalice first and get 1-2 doran rings if I need too and I do run HP per level + 4 MR, would 5 MR and flat HP make much of a difference?
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I would actually contend that if you are going 2x doran on Xerath who has a mana return mechanic getting codex over chalice is actually safer in a lot of match ups, specifically if the jungler is the problem. The faster you can get your hero to a strength where they can reset the wave quickly the less amount of time you spend exposing yourself. As an example you say you 'usually bounce back' I am guessing this is around the time you reach a strength where you can reset the wave with Q W Q at most?
I would specifically not switch to mr blues for this exact reason.
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if ure constantly dying mid lane u probably have shit lane management, be conscious of how ur spells are pushing the lane and be smart with how u aim ur spells
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On April 22 2015 04:46 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 02:38 ticklishmusic wrote:
Zyra is okay, she does stupid amounts of damage. Wins lane really hard against most melee supports from my experience (and Zyra is one of my worst supports), but you become pretty weak past laning phase. Her ult also has a pretty ass cast range, so you can only use it as a counter initiate/ disengage tool. her ult is just fine considering it's teh size of a amumu ult...
The cast range is 700 on a champ that is less tanky than minions for most of the game unless she gets fed. Also the 2 second delay on the knockup means you have to land it so enemy champs are not too close to the edge, or they walk out of it. That in turn means you end up closer to enemy champs, and since you're made of a paper/ cardboard-precursor you die if they even look at you the wrong way.
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On April 22 2015 09:44 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 04:46 wei2coolman wrote:On April 22 2015 02:38 ticklishmusic wrote:
Zyra is okay, she does stupid amounts of damage. Wins lane really hard against most melee supports from my experience (and Zyra is one of my worst supports), but you become pretty weak past laning phase. Her ult also has a pretty ass cast range, so you can only use it as a counter initiate/ disengage tool. her ult is just fine considering it's teh size of a amumu ult... The cast range is 700 on a champ that is less tanky than minions for most of the game unless she gets fed. Also the 2 second delay on the knockup means you have to land it so enemy champs are not too close to the edge, or they walk out of it. That in turn means you end up closer to enemy champs, and since you're made of a paper/ cardboard-precursor you die if they even look at you the wrong way.
Considering the purpose of the ult is a disengage, and not an engage tool, the cast range is more than gratuitous for an ult that large.
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EPT
