EPTFreeze says he'll play in NA
Pro scene rumor mill - Page 136
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Fusilero
United Kingdom50293 Posts
Freeze says he'll play in NA | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
Garena's harsh punishments in past year showed that there is no safety even for best midlaner in LMS so it really hurts region. Lupin going back to Korea doesn't help either, Taiwan relies a lot on scrimming with Chinese/Korean teams + playing on Korean/Chinese ladders but LMS itself, if massive poaching of stars starts (like, Ziv, Karsa and Maple going to China for example) will get hurt. However, if Ziv and Karsa were able to become international stars by playing in region without any competition (let's be real, last Taiwanese toplaner who was good is 2013 Stanley before retirement and Winds retired half a year ago as well), future might be bright. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On October 27 2015 03:38 ticklishmusic wrote: Based on what I know, players going from Taiwan -> China is pretty unlikely-- then again the Chinese might offer some ridiculously huge salaries. Taiwan is a third of the size of South Korea, I think that's enough people to put together a few good teams esp. with a little more infrastructure. China... well, like you said, they need professional culture. I feel like if you take away the imports they progressed the least as a region since last season. They were a bunch of mechanical and farming gods, but would just constantly get outplayed and outmaneuvered across the map. They haven't evolved past the MarineKingPrime strategy of macro hard, smash into the enemy repeatedly until he dies or you're dead. Like, they've improved slightly but in terms of teamwork and strategy they're incredibly poor. i think the lpl has some ridiculous rule like 'taiwan players do not count against the import cap' so there will be extra premium placed upon getting taiwan players. and they speak mandarin chinese. 2 teams in top 8 at worlds is still amazing for LMS given its natural disadvantages. if the teams could diversify their champ pool a bit instead of just going with the handful of comfort comps they'd do even better. | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On October 27 2015 00:34 Fusilero wrote: No one knows what this means, but it's provocative and it'll get the people going. I assume this means that Taiwan is literally Korea now. What makes Korea, Korea is the eSports culture. Official recognition/lack thereof has little to do with it. Just as you can't buy it, you also can't politic your way to a thriving eSports scene. | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On October 27 2015 03:18 oneofthem wrote: too small a playerbase and too much of a poaching threat from china. i still rate china as the 2nd best region going forward just due to the hardware stuff but they really need to develop a professional culture. But they won't. That's the problem. People have been waiting for China to develop a 'professional culture' for years now - ever since BW, in fact, which was the first game in which it was said that the Chinese would eventually overtake the Koreans - but it hasn't happened, and I dare say it won't simply because of the way eSports is structured in China - ie the scene = a bunch of rich kids with too much money to throw at their personal "passion," as opposed to being the result of an organic growth in people wanting to make competitive gaming their careers. Think about it this way. Why is it that, despite having the largest player base in existence - I've heard upwards of 60-80 million players - there are so few Chinese talents in LoL? One could blame the lack of new talent development infrastructure, but only up to a certain limit, as the Chinese players don't even reach the highest ELO on their own servers - Korean players such as Apdo, Deft, Mystic, etc. have been sitting there for a year. That to me shows lack of competitive drive for the game, which would then explain why Chinese organizations complain without stop about the work ethic of their own players - because that's just it, they don't work hard because they don't actually want to put in the effort needed to become the best. | ||
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Saradin
456 Posts
If you're a college student, would you opt for the hobby/job that's slim in finances and a joke in society (which traces largely back to it not being a real money maker), or go pursue a real living? | ||
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Fusilero
United Kingdom50293 Posts
Then Taiwan realized that GPL has the worlds seeds not tesl and the tesl promptly died on the spot. So it's possible that the culture can develop as a result of official recognition and support for the LMS but it seems unlikely. Taiwan has a small player base and apparently the roi of Taiwan is pretty bad. The anecdote I was told was when thermaltake had a giant leap in roi when they ditched Taiwan for the Vietnamese scene. | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On October 27 2015 04:37 Saradin wrote: You can subsidize your way into enabling the possibility of an eSports scene though. A major hurdle that Clement Chu cites is that a majority of the Taiwanese challenger scene are college students. If you're a college student, would you opt for the hobby/job that's slim in finances and a joke in society (which traces largely back to it not being a real money maker), or go pursue a real living? That applies across the world. The casual player base in every region is made up primarily of high school/college students who are pressured to go into an 'actual career.' It's not though Koreans think especially highly of eSports careers. But they are willing to do it, nonetheless, due to the existence of a gaming culture, I suppose, in which kids around 13-20 are motivated to work harder than they'd ever worked in school to 'make it' in this niche community. I don't think that gaming culture exists elsewhere, which is why the Korean eSports success has been difficult to replicate. In the US, as in China and as in Europe, it is difficult to imagine committing fully to an eSports career as a person of any sort of talent as you'd feel, in the back of your head, that you're wasting your time and effort. I don't know what it is about Koreans that make them get past this mental block, though it must have to do with the gaming culture. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On October 27 2015 04:36 Azarkon wrote: But they won't. That's the problem. People have been waiting for China to develop a 'professional culture' for years now - ever since BW, in fact, which was the first game in which it was said that the Chinese would eventually overtake the Koreans - but it hasn't happened, and I dare say it won't simply because of the way eSports is structured in China - ie the scene = a bunch of rich kids with too much money to throw at their personal "passion," as opposed to being the result of an organic growth in people wanting to make competitive gaming their careers. Think about it this way. Why is it that, despite having the largest player base in existence - I've heard upwards of 60-80 million players - there are so few Chinese talents in LoL? One could blame the lack of new talent development know-how, but only up to a certain limit, as the Chinese players don't even reach the highest ELO on their own servers - Korean players such as Apdo, Deft, Mystic, etc. have been sitting there for a year. That to me shows lack of competitive drive for the game, which would then explain why Chinese organizations complain without stop about the work ethic of their own players. well, in the first half of s5 china was actually doing fine just by scrimming korean teams. effective scrims is a pretty good empirical predictor of near term performance. i'd put a lot of koo's success and also LMS success on the quality of their scrim partners. effective scrim is basically what defines a 'region' because within the scrims there's knowledge diffusion and mutual learning. it's how metas form and define their boundaries. if LPL had kept up with this form of learning maybe they would have done better at worlds, but clearly they were not prepared. there are some material flaws that prevented the lpl teams from effective learning though. the teams' internal lack of cohesion aside, their innate research ability just doesn't seem all that great. outside of a few trendy things like LGD's strats they were not able to find out the best way to play on the worlds patch to a shockingly inept degree. in future big tourneys competitor teams could simply not scrim them properly and they'd be stuck at a low level. as for the point about player skill limitation, it's not a surprise that the china region is historically known for its adc products. it's a position that requires little actual strategic level game knowledge but demand a lot from reflex and tactical knowledge. learning how to play a hero in an environment that does not prize economizing decisionmaking will place a soft ceiling on player development, just like going to a vocational school for plumbing can turn all potential einsteins into nothing. playing lol is not THAT mechanically demanding. some of the players you cite as demonstrating korean superiority are that way because of their ability to manage games and make strategic decisions. | ||
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Fusilero
United Kingdom50293 Posts
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Saradin
456 Posts
So, I request a trace of how the esports scene developed in Korea to this point. It did not spontaneously appear fully formed; it had to start and grow somehow. And the evolution of opportunities and motivation along the way can always be discerned. | ||
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Usagi
Spain1647 Posts
i think the lpl has some ridiculous rule like 'taiwan players do not count against the import cap Well, both Taiwan and China have claims over eachother's territory and consider themselves the true one, so that rule is 100% understandable, and Taiwan would do the same if they were the ones pouring millions into their teams. What is still ridiculous is that Taiwan is a single Region, and Korea another one, and if japan became a main region, it would be one. All those asian countries hate eachother too much to be bunched together, ever. 9/16 teams in Worlds were asian because of the multitude of different regions. | ||
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Fusilero
United Kingdom50293 Posts
So for example; Karsa, Toyz and Ziv would be imports. While AmazingJ and Atu are not considered imports even though they are Hong Kong and Taiwanese respectively. | ||
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Skitter
United States899 Posts
On October 27 2015 04:51 Fusilero wrote: Apparently newbee is going to buy QG for the next year Was hoping they'd get picked up after their performance in LPL | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On October 27 2015 04:47 Azarkon wrote: That applies across the world. The casual player base in every region is made up primarily of high school/college students who are pressured to go into an 'actual career.' It's not though Koreans think especially highly of eSports careers. But they are willing to do it, nonetheless, due to the existence of a gaming culture, I suppose, in which kids around 13-20 are motivated to work harder than they'd ever worked in school to 'make it' in this niche community. I don't think that gaming culture exists elsewhere, which is why the Korean eSports success has been difficult to replicate. In the US, as in China and as in Europe, it is difficult to imagine committing fully to an eSports career as a person of any sort of talent as you'd feel, in the back of your head, that you're wasting your time and effort. I don't know what it is about Koreans that make them get past this mental block, though it must have to do with the gaming culture. you have to separate the 'esports culture' to finer components to understand korean competitiveness simplistically i'll divide the 'culture' thing into passion and research intensive training culture. yes, kids in korea do go to extreme lengths to play some of these games, but that level of passion element of esports culture in korea explains more of the niche success of esports in korea as a commercial/cultural phenomenon. what really gives korean esports teams the edge is really their research culture about the game. in the intense competition of bw and now lol, what determines success is often being first to a particular strat or understanding of the game, complemented but never replaced by copious amount of fine tuning. it's not even all 'infrastructure' as players are major active participants in this process. you can probably also see the old korean pros dropping off when they are removed from the more active korean league environment, especially in the latter half of s5. replicating korean success is possible if you take the most value added stuff korean teams do and try to do them as well. in s5 a lot of western teams have actually done decently to put more cerebral effort into their training. but the lack of a viable scrim environment is still a major hamper to how far they will go. if they can scrim korean teams on 10 ping internet the western orgs would do much better. failing that, they could focus their practice in the regular season on making sure their fundamental decisionmaking is sound, and then try to game the koreans when the inevitable pre-worlds patch comes around. the reason for this is that often the most skilled and high ceiling western team are content to ride out that talent and their few working strats in their domestic leagues, ignoring developing the basic team decisionmaking skills that will come through for all patch situations. in lol the korean teams pretty much just play the out-resource, maximize expected value game, but this approach is a bit of a potential crack in a dynamic environment where predictability may be a liability. i think with some ideal combination of a talented team, the right patch just before worlds rewarding early game snowballing, and roster problems for skt, a western team can still win worlds even in s6. | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On October 27 2015 05:16 Skitter wrote: Was hoping they'd get picked up after their performance in LPL It's not like Qiao Gu wasn't financially stable org. VERY STABLE to say the least. | ||
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Fusilero
United Kingdom50293 Posts
http://oddshot.tv/shot/flaxxi-20151026202744510 Against All Authority being everything I dreamed that roster would be. | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On October 27 2015 05:35 Fusilero wrote: On another note http://oddshot.tv/shot/flaxxi-20151026202744510 Against All Authority being everything I dreamed that roster would be. I was expecting them to last at least until end of Worlds, seems no. | ||
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EsanLOL
479 Posts
On October 27 2015 05:35 Fusilero wrote: On another note http://oddshot.tv/shot/flaxxi-20151026202744510 Against All Authority being everything I dreamed that roster would be. Nothing like rage quitting over meaningless ranked 5s games. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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